A few variants I'm toying with critque please [Archive] - Wizards Community

A few variants I'm toying with critque please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vaalingrade Ashland
08-24-03, 12:29 AM Here are a few things I've either implemented or am thinking about please share your thoughs (but be polite)

Fort or Die spells
Drop them by one level and change them from an auto kill to this: on a failed save, the target falls unconcious and goes to -1 hit points. They cannot stabilize naturally. (this goes for all fort or Die effects except Coup de Gras.

Extended life. After level 20, the character death's door is equal to 1/2 character level.

No training. On the job type feats and PrCs only unless you are really willing to make a commitment (and the party is too)
Fixxxer
08-24-03, 02:25 AM Drop them by one level and change them from an auto kill to this: on a failed save, the target falls unconcious and goes to -1 hit points. They cannot stabilize naturally. (this goes for all fort or Die effects except Coup de Gras.

I'm not so sure I like this. It looks too much like it was tailor-made to keep PCs from dying. Personally, I like death effects, as they add a bit of on-the-spot anxiousness to the game at times.

Extended life. After level 20, the character death's door is equal to 1/2 character level.

This doesn't seem unbalancing or anything, but I'm not sure I like it either.

A suggestion: I know you're not using 3.5 or anything, but you might think about using the 3.5 feat "Diehard." Its only prerequisite is the Endurance feat and what it does is it allows you to remain conscious (but disabled) from -1 to -9 hit points. It also lets you autostabilize while in negative hit points without having to roll a % check.

No training. On the job type feats and PrCs only unless you are really willing to make a commitment (and the party is too)

I like this. This is how I do things myself. If a wizard PC who never ever enters melee combat wants to gain Power Attack, he's really going to have to work for it.
DrakathTheRatling
08-24-03, 04:34 AM I don't like save or die effects, so I'm in favor of changing them. (I don't like resurrection either and the two sort of go together)
Vaalingrade Ashland
08-24-03, 03:17 PM I'm just not a fan of save or die, especially on the DM side of things because every wizard is going to let loose with the bloody things and eventually someone is going to roll a one and dieing from a nat. 1 sucks hard core.
Luminous Crayon
08-24-03, 05:06 PM I too am a bit unsure how to handle Save-or-Die effects. When I DM, I put too much time into my villians to sit and smile when that bloody wizard PC unleashes a Phantasmal Killer and my dice are lousy on the saves. When I'm a PC, I put weeks of effort into characters before the game even begins; if I'm killed in the first round of combat because I fail a save, I'm going to be a bit put-out. On the positive side, they frequently affect less targets than other malign spells of the same level, and they often have little effect when saves are made, and yet...

I think I could function just fine in a gameworld without save-or-die effects. There are still ways to take an enemy out of the combat with one failed save (Baleful Polymorph, Imprisonment, Forcecage, et al) but these are a little more easily reversable.
BobtheMighty
08-24-03, 10:17 PM I dunno if you use the epic level handbook, and that's why you're choosing that Death's Door variant, but it suggests a variant where one's Death's Door is equal to character level once epic levels are reached, IIRC.

If you are familiar with that variant, and that's why you suggested your own, I don't really see any glaring problems with it.
SUPERCONTRA_Phil
08-25-03, 01:40 AM Fort or Die spells Drop them by one level and change them from an auto kill to this: on a failed save, the target falls unconcious and goes to -1 hit points. They cannot stabilize naturally. (this goes for all fort or Die effects except Coup de Gras.

good idea :D

Extended life. After level 20, the character death's door is equal to 1/2 character level.

dumb :confused:

No training. On the job type feats and PrCs only unless you are really willing to make a commitment (and the party is too)

retarded :b:
Draco Argentum
08-25-03, 03:54 AM Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland
I'm just not a fan of save or die, especially on the DM side of things because every wizard is going to let loose with the bloody things and eventually someone is going to roll a one and dieing from a nat. 1 sucks hard core.

Then don't use the nat one fails rule. Its nowhere to be found in the 3.0 core books.
Redcrow
08-25-03, 05:40 AM Most of the save or die spells I just eliminated from my game altogether, but there are a few that I have rewritten. DnD is not lacking for spells in the least, so eliminating a few spells here and there is not going to affect the game or hamstring the spellcasters.

As for Death's Door, I've always used the character's constitution to determine the threshold. If a character has a 14 Con, then -14 is that character's Death's Door threshold. If a character has an 18 Con, then -18 is the character's [/i]Death's Door[/i] threshold. Etc. This can help keep character mortality rate at low levels down and seems to balance out well at higher levels. I've never ran an Epic Level game and don't plan to, so I don't know if this is a viable solution for levels above 20.
Ack'noth Necrom
08-25-03, 05:50 AM I like the save or die spells myself, but thats not a bad varient for people who dont like them. Remember that you may have to make certain attacks the same way, like Coup de grace and death attack.

The Extended life thing is a cool varient rule. I use the one where when they hit epic deaths door is -50, which can happen very fast.

Im not totally sure what you mean on the training thing, so no comment at this time.

Anyway not bad varients, if they work for ya use em.
Vaalingrade Ashland
08-25-03, 04:29 PM Originally posted by SUPERCONTRA_Phil
good idea :D

dumb :confused:

retarded :b:
Care to elaborate?
Vaalingrade Ashland
08-25-03, 04:31 PM Originally posted by Draco Argentum
Then don't use the nat one fails rule. Its nowhere to be found in the 3.0 core books.
I like the nat 1 failure -- never knew it wasn't core until a few weeks ago. Its better for the Pcs in the long run because my Dread- and Grimlord class demons get sick fort saves.
Sir Neil
08-25-03, 10:16 PM Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland
Here are a few things I've either implemented or am thinking about please share your thoughs (but be polite)

Fort or Die: In one campaign I did the same, but kept them at the original level because there was no way to raise the dead.

Extended Life: I haven't played at those levels yet. It doesn't seem that the death's door rule would matter much at those levels, even with the increase, so I don't see a reason not to extend it.

No Training: I think it'd be a neat bit of role-playing to have the players involved talk out a training scene every now and then, so I've probably misunderstood you.
Vaalingrade Ashland
08-25-03, 10:37 PM I think I misspoke. The idea is that they can't have those feats and classes without training, but normal stuff they get without training (I see a lot of people requiring training for everthing from swimming to tumble)
I just ask that skills, feats and PrCs make since. But on the other hand, if they want to train for something, they really should talk it over with the group because staying in one place:
1) take group time and resources
2) Will get them killed in most of my games (stagnation bad, bad guys are hunting you)
Sir Neil
08-26-03, 08:36 PM Oh, okay. That should be fine, since the normal rule is no training is needed for anything.
Yankee
08-27-03, 12:26 AM Keep in mind that while there are not 'save or die' spells at every level, there are 'save or be shafted' spells right throughout. Sleep is a killer on low level PCs. Hold person, etc... By the time a bad guy can point at someone and kill them, there are spells and if neccessary NPCs who can point at someone and raise them. So its not an house rule I would use, but it doesn't seem unbalanced or anything.
By the by, if you do use this house rule, you may wish to get rid of vorpal weaponry, or alter it in some way. I mean, you don't even get a save against those things....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-24-03, 12:29 AM	Here are a few things I've either implemented or am thinking about please share your thoughs (but be polite) Fort or Die spells Drop them by one level and change them from an auto kill to this: on a failed save, the target falls unconcious and goes to -1 hit points. They cannot stabilize naturally. (this goes for all fort or Die effects except Coup de Gras. Extended life. After level 20, the character death's door is equal to 1/2 character level. No training. On the job type feats and PrCs only unless you are really willing to make a commitment (and the party is too)
Fixxxer 08-24-03, 02:25 AM	Drop them by one level and change them from an auto kill to this: on a failed save, the target falls unconcious and goes to -1 hit points. They cannot stabilize naturally. (this goes for all fort or Die effects except Coup de Gras. I'm not so sure I like this. It looks too much like it was tailor-made to keep PCs from dying. Personally, I like death effects, as they add a bit of on-the-spot anxiousness to the game at times. Extended life. After level 20, the character death's door is equal to 1/2 character level. This doesn't seem unbalancing or anything, but I'm not sure I like it either. A suggestion: I know you're not using 3.5 or anything, but you might think about using the 3.5 feat "Diehard." Its only prerequisite is the Endurance feat and what it does is it allows you to remain conscious (but disabled) from -1 to -9 hit points. It also lets you autostabilize while in negative hit points without having to roll a % check. No training. On the job type feats and PrCs only unless you are really willing to make a commitment (and the party is too) I like this. This is how I do things myself. If a wizard PC who never ever enters melee combat wants to gain Power Attack, he's really going to have to work for it.
DrakathTheRatling 08-24-03, 04:34 AM	I don't like save or die effects, so I'm in favor of changing them. (I don't like resurrection either and the two sort of go together)
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-24-03, 03:17 PM	I'm just not a fan of save or die, especially on the DM side of things because every wizard is going to let loose with the bloody things and eventually someone is going to roll a one and dieing from a nat. 1 sucks hard core.
Luminous Crayon 08-24-03, 05:06 PM	I too am a bit unsure how to handle Save-or-Die effects. When I DM, I put too much time into my villians to sit and smile when that bloody wizard PC unleashes a Phantasmal Killer and my dice are lousy on the saves. When I'm a PC, I put weeks of effort into characters before the game even begins; if I'm killed in the first round of combat because I fail a save, I'm going to be a bit put-out. On the positive side, they frequently affect less targets than other malign spells of the same level, and they often have little effect when saves are made, and yet... I think I could function just fine in a gameworld without save-or-die effects. There are still ways to take an enemy out of the combat with one failed save (Baleful Polymorph, Imprisonment, Forcecage, et al) but these are a little more easily reversable.
BobtheMighty 08-24-03, 10:17 PM	I dunno if you use the epic level handbook, and that's why you're choosing that Death's Door variant, but it suggests a variant where one's Death's Door is equal to character level once epic levels are reached, IIRC. If you are familiar with that variant, and that's why you suggested your own, I don't really see any glaring problems with it.
SUPERCONTRA_Phil 08-25-03, 01:40 AM	Fort or Die spells Drop them by one level and change them from an auto kill to this: on a failed save, the target falls unconcious and goes to -1 hit points. They cannot stabilize naturally. (this goes for all fort or Die effects except Coup de Gras. good idea :D Extended life. After level 20, the character death's door is equal to 1/2 character level. dumb :confused: No training. On the job type feats and PrCs only unless you are really willing to make a commitment (and the party is too) retarded :b:
Draco Argentum 08-25-03, 03:54 AM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland I'm just not a fan of save or die, especially on the DM side of things because every wizard is going to let loose with the bloody things and eventually someone is going to roll a one and dieing from a nat. 1 sucks hard core. Then don't use the nat one fails rule. Its nowhere to be found in the 3.0 core books.
Redcrow 08-25-03, 05:40 AM	Most of the save or die spells I just eliminated from my game altogether, but there are a few that I have rewritten. DnD is not lacking for spells in the least, so eliminating a few spells here and there is not going to affect the game or hamstring the spellcasters. As for Death's Door, I've always used the character's constitution to determine the threshold. If a character has a 14 Con, then -14 is that character's Death's Door threshold. If a character has an 18 Con, then -18 is the character's [/i]Death's Door[/i] threshold. Etc. This can help keep character mortality rate at low levels down and seems to balance out well at higher levels. I've never ran an Epic Level game and don't plan to, so I don't know if this is a viable solution for levels above 20.
Ack'noth Necrom 08-25-03, 05:50 AM	I like the save or die spells myself, but thats not a bad varient for people who dont like them. Remember that you may have to make certain attacks the same way, like Coup de grace and death attack. The Extended life thing is a cool varient rule. I use the one where when they hit epic deaths door is -50, which can happen very fast. Im not totally sure what you mean on the training thing, so no comment at this time. Anyway not bad varients, if they work for ya use em.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-25-03, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by SUPERCONTRA_Phil good idea :D dumb :confused: retarded :b: Care to elaborate?
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-25-03, 04:31 PM	Originally posted by Draco Argentum Then don't use the nat one fails rule. Its nowhere to be found in the 3.0 core books. I like the nat 1 failure -- never knew it wasn't core until a few weeks ago. Its better for the Pcs in the long run because my Dread- and Grimlord class demons get sick fort saves.
Sir Neil 08-25-03, 10:16 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland Here are a few things I've either implemented or am thinking about please share your thoughs (but be polite) Fort or Die: In one campaign I did the same, but kept them at the original level because there was no way to raise the dead. Extended Life: I haven't played at those levels yet. It doesn't seem that the death's door rule would matter much at those levels, even with the increase, so I don't see a reason not to extend it. No Training: I think it'd be a neat bit of role-playing to have the players involved talk out a training scene every now and then, so I've probably misunderstood you.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-25-03, 10:37 PM	I think I misspoke. The idea is that they can't have those feats and classes without training, but normal stuff they get without training (I see a lot of people requiring training for everthing from swimming to tumble) I just ask that skills, feats and PrCs make since. But on the other hand, if they want to train for something, they really should talk it over with the group because staying in one place: 1) take group time and resources 2) Will get them killed in most of my games (stagnation bad, bad guys are hunting you)
Sir Neil 08-26-03, 08:36 PM	Oh, okay. That should be fine, since the normal rule is no training is needed for anything.
Yankee 08-27-03, 12:26 AM	Keep in mind that while there are not 'save or die' spells at every level, there are 'save or be shafted' spells right throughout. Sleep is a killer on low level PCs. Hold person, etc... By the time a bad guy can point at someone and kill them, there are spells and if neccessary NPCs who can point at someone and raise them. So its not an house rule I would use, but it doesn't seem unbalanced or anything. By the by, if you do use this house rule, you may wish to get rid of vorpal weaponry, or alter it in some way. I mean, you don't even get a save against those things....