A Fiendish Proposal... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Fiendish Proposal... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nezalhualixtlan
07-30-04, 02:58 PM So, my DM was considering a plot line that would center on a particular player, a cleric of Tamara (one of the Dragon Gods), who would receive as a reward for the quest he undertook access into the Half-Dragon template, essentially becomming a Half-Dragon. This has (I think) been put to rest, due to various reasons, such as the fact that we had a new player join up who actually started as a Silver Half-Dragon Paladin of Bahamut (lvl adjust was fine, because most people were lvl 5, and he started as a lvl1 Paladin), so with one Half-Dragon already, I don't think my DM wanted to introduce another.

So, I offered up the idea of, should my DM so desire, that I might take the place of the PC in question, and instead of gaining the Half-Dragon Template, gain the Half-Fiend template instead. Now, I'm not sure how this would go about, nor am I sure my DM would want to do it, nor am I sure I would want to do it, presently anyway.

But let me offer some background info on my PC. She's a Sun Elf Diviner from Evermeet. She's got the Otherworldly Feat from the Player's Guide to Faerun, making her an Native Outsider already. She's Neutral Evil with a slight lean to Law and a slight lean to Neutrality, and worships The Xammux, one of the Deities from the Book of Vile Darkness. It's her background that she comes from a long line of Wizards on both her Mother and Father's side that have been with the Elves of Evermeet, and even further back traces part of her family history to elves that had been part of the Netheril Empire. It's a long line of Wizards as I said, Sun Elves who are more or less all Native Outsiders like her, a family that worships The Xammux back as far as they can remember.

So she's an Evil Outsider already - yes there are some conflicts with the Paladin mentioned above, but we've managed to work out an uneasy truce. My evil is "group friendly" as my DM has put it. I'm very focused on gaining knowledge and power, ruthlessly and selfishly if need be, but intelligently, so my being evil does not cause my goup problems. I understand that the path to power would be longer if I tried it alone, so that I am ok working with the others, we must be useful to each other, so I am ok helping them so long as they help me and do not get in my way. When we found the Paladin he gave me a standing promise to kill me if I do anything that offends his morals - I promised to slay him if he ever tried. More than that, we realize we all benefit each other, so there is not much conflict.

But enough about the background. I want to explore the possibilities of becomming more Fiendish - the benefits, the detriments, what it would entail, what I would have to sacrifice, etc. There would need to be a convincing storyline of course, one idea I had that with my current background wouldn't be out of the ordinary. Clearly, my family is a bunch of Evil Outsiders, but we all still look like Sun Elves. So it is possible, that being Wizards, they were doing experiments, and probably a grand breeding experiment within the family, merging Fiendish, and maybe captive Celestial blood into the families bloodline. Now, we haven't been comming out Tiefling's or Aasimars so we aren't actually breeding with the Outsiders, but we have some connection to outsider blood. Could be that as some of the family ages, they end up 'expressing' more of some of the Fiendish traits that run in the blood. But there'd also have to be a convincing reason to do this as well. As I mentioned above, the inherited Half-Dragon template was going to be a reward for a quest. So I would imagine this would need to be the same.

Then there is what happens if I became Half-Fiendish. There are of course all the benefits that you can read in the Monster Manual. I'm not sure all of them would even surface though, because being an Evil Outsider already, I''m already a little Fiendish in a way. So how would my appearance warp if at all, etc? Then there is the huge question of how to deal with the level adjustment that would take place. Try to render it like a leveling and gain traits as I go up in level? Or give the traits all at once and just stop my Wizard lvl from going up for a long time? These are thing my DM would need to consider, but I'm throwing it out for suggesstions too.

In the end, I'm still not entirely sure I'd even want to do this. I'm already an Evil Native Outsider, so my type wouldn't change, and I've already got the Darkvision from that - so most of my first picked Feat would be rendered useless. My PC is a pretty, aluring, and intelligent character, she takes pride in being able to seduce others. A warped Half-Fiend appearance could very much get in the way of that, and make things less fun, even given the benefits from the template. Then there is the question of the level adjustment as well. Wizards (all classes really) get power by leveling, +4 levels to wait before being able to gain a level in Wizard, doesn't seem to really be worth the wait in the powers you get as a Half-Fiend, but then I'm not really looking at taking on this template possibly for the powers, its really more for a storyline flavor type of thing.

So I don't know. Could be my DM just says 'Forget it', and I back off and leave the idea alone for good, he hasn't gotten back to be yet on what he actually thinks of it yet, though I have been hoping to have an open and honest discussion about everything regarding this.

Really, I'm open on this subject too. It's just an idea at this point. I'd like to hear some of your input about it, because I'm sure there are lots of things to consider that I haven't yet. And then I'd have more to be able to discuss with my DM about if he's open to the idea too.

So let me hear the good, bad, and the ugly. Ponder outloud (at least on the keyboard), give suggestions, constructive criticism, why you would or would not ever let someone do this in your campaign, whatever. I'm leaving it open to a real brainstorming session, cause I just want to know what the rest of you think.

:schemes:
Joseph Wolfgar
07-30-04, 07:35 PM You might want to look at the Fey'ri entry in Races of Faerun.

The Fey'ri are a group of fiendish sun-elves from the High-Forest. They are LA +2 or +3, depending on what powers you chose.
BladeBoy
07-31-04, 01:24 AM Paladins and Evil NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE work together, not even if it would save the Pali's life, they can't do it.
Doesn't mean they have to hunt you and kill you, but they can't aid you or anything.
Vexxan
07-31-04, 01:31 AM Allying with evil, even if it is for a common goal, and there is no other means of doing it, and the outcome is for the immediate and long-term benefit of many good folk... is never an option.

Paladins are never black and white. Alignment, as per the rules, is. Paladin's aren't just their alignment.
Rubicantbu
08-03-04, 02:48 PM Originally posted by BladeBoy
Paladins and Evil NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE work together, not even if it would save the Pali's life, they can't do it.
Doesn't mean they have to hunt you and kill you, but they can't aid you or anything.

That is true, the rules do say that.

However, as Nez's DM, I sat down with both him and the Paladin(came into our game later on) and they agreed since they both had characters they wanted to play that wizards said "shouldn't be allowed to play together", that they would make a roleplaying opportunity with it.

So the Paladin found himself resuced by a group who has an evil member(especially when she directly aided the paladin during the rescue). Now he is campaigning to turn the evil character to the side of good. I think it's great, personally.

It's probably one of the best player-player storylines I've had just pop up out of nowhere. Rules are meant to be bent when they make the role-playing experience that much more enjoyable, right?

Besides, he has her under a watchful eye anyway :D
Nezalhualixtlan
08-03-04, 02:56 PM Originally posted by BladeBoy
Paladins and Evil NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE work together, not even if it would save the Pali's life, they can't do it.

And if the Paladin is trying to walk the exalted path and making a sincere effort to 'redeem' said evil character? Can't really expect to give someone the cold shoulder and then bring 'em over to your way of thinking now can you?

Now the evil character may be trying to 'corrupt' said paladin at the same time, but then thats a matter of moral strength and character when it comes down to who if either win over the other.

I know the PHB says specifically that a Paladin will never ever work with a character they know to be evil, or to put up with a character who consistently offends their morals, but if you take a look into the Book of Exalted Deeds, its quite clearly showing the moral crisis of a Paladin confronting two succubi. The succubi are creatures of pure evil, but they are also mates - Does the Paladin smite them because they are evil, or leave them be to honor love?

Sure choosing to not kill, is something you said above, and is different from working together, but unlike Vex said, we enter a morally grey area, where things are not all black and white. If the paladin isn't in a black or white moral situation, then how can it be that his decisions on whether to ally with an evil character to bring about a greater good - so long as he isn't letting the evil character commit evil deeds - be black and white?

Our paladin is playing in a morally complex world, and if his actions and decisions are always morally simple, at some point I'm betting he'll screw up.

:devil:
meabolex
08-03-04, 03:17 PM Well, there's always the case of a lawful good creature with the evil subtype. As far as all game effects go, a lawful good quasit is considered evil, lawful, chaotic and good. So, I could see a lawful good quasit working with a paladin.

The terminology "always chaotic evil" doesn't mean "every individual that has ever existed is always chaotic evil" -- it means, with very few exceptions, quasits are chaotic evil.
PseudoYorimoto
08-03-04, 03:53 PM Guys, let me just say, that this isn't a paladin discussion thread, please don't make this about that or this may get closed by the WizOs, lets focus on the Half-Fiend topic, PLEASE.
Hochi-min trail
08-03-04, 04:21 PM yes sir!

i had a good story about a paladin and a vampire, though...

anyway... it depends. you do get energy resistances and some ability bonuses, and even a few spell-like abilities, and at those levels, these abilities can be great. your spells will be hurt, but this is good if youwant to become afighting wizard. if not, then stay away from the template, since most of them are not worth it.

wizards made it realy hard to get a good character with templates.
Rubicantbu
08-03-04, 04:34 PM Originally posted by Hochi-min trail
wizards made it realy hard to get a good character with templates.

I think what the templates do is they add some flavor, and power early on, but the benefits you get are diluted as you get higher in level, and IMO, not really worth the LA.

Anyway, the half fiend idea would work better after his progression is done.
Autosponge
08-03-04, 05:00 PM Go half-celestial and don't break the cardinal rule of party mix (paladins and evil don't).
Nezalhualixtlan
08-05-04, 05:22 PM Originally posted by Autosponge
Go half-celestial and don't break the cardinal rule of party mix (paladins and evil don't).

It's far too late for that. I was present as the Neutral Evil Wizardress when we found the Paladin who decided to stay with us even though we were bringing a drug shipment back into Skullport. It was just an accident really that we happened to free him from the grip of a Goblin Wizard, his golem minions, and some Derro that he had under control - we really just came to reclaim a shipment of drugs the Goblin had waylaid from a rather powerful Dealer in Skullport. This was to get the information the Dealer had on a particular addict of his, who owed him anyway, that the group wanted to kill. My old character had been present when this addict, a doppelganger, had screwed us over - but my wizardress wasn't, so she didn't care much other than to get more power. But for the rest of the group revenge was the motivation. And still the Paladin came along.

Happened that the Doppelganger was also a slaver, so the Paladin felt good about stopping that, but most of the group was in it for revenge and profit.

I as a NE Wiz fit in more than the LG Exalted Pal. :schemes:

And, I was there first. Not much longer, but a little, so the Paladin was free to leave if he wanted.
------------------------------------

But back to the original topic of discussion. I think I've decided not to go with the Half-Fiend idea until much later in my characters progression if that is alright with my DM. It's mostly because if I did, although I'd get some cool abilities in return, I'd really hamstring myself as far as my characters class progression is concerned. And I don't really feel like doing that now at least.
ck2001wendt
08-06-04, 07:47 AM LA Buy-Off. Which you have to start on early, if you´re going to do it at all.

It will never get you back to CL=ECL, but it will get you much closer than you would be making the switch at level 16.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nezalhualixtlan 07-30-04, 02:58 PM	So, my DM was considering a plot line that would center on a particular player, a cleric of Tamara (one of the Dragon Gods), who would receive as a reward for the quest he undertook access into the Half-Dragon template, essentially becomming a Half-Dragon. This has (I think) been put to rest, due to various reasons, such as the fact that we had a new player join up who actually started as a Silver Half-Dragon Paladin of Bahamut (lvl adjust was fine, because most people were lvl 5, and he started as a lvl1 Paladin), so with one Half-Dragon already, I don't think my DM wanted to introduce another. So, I offered up the idea of, should my DM so desire, that I might take the place of the PC in question, and instead of gaining the Half-Dragon Template, gain the Half-Fiend template instead. Now, I'm not sure how this would go about, nor am I sure my DM would want to do it, nor am I sure I would want to do it, presently anyway. But let me offer some background info on my PC. She's a Sun Elf Diviner from Evermeet. She's got the Otherworldly Feat from the Player's Guide to Faerun, making her an Native Outsider already. She's Neutral Evil with a slight lean to Law and a slight lean to Neutrality, and worships The Xammux, one of the Deities from the Book of Vile Darkness. It's her background that she comes from a long line of Wizards on both her Mother and Father's side that have been with the Elves of Evermeet, and even further back traces part of her family history to elves that had been part of the Netheril Empire. It's a long line of Wizards as I said, Sun Elves who are more or less all Native Outsiders like her, a family that worships The Xammux back as far as they can remember. So she's an Evil Outsider already - yes there are some conflicts with the Paladin mentioned above, but we've managed to work out an uneasy truce. My evil is "group friendly" as my DM has put it. I'm very focused on gaining knowledge and power, ruthlessly and selfishly if need be, but intelligently, so my being evil does not cause my goup problems. I understand that the path to power would be longer if I tried it alone, so that I am ok working with the others, we must be useful to each other, so I am ok helping them so long as they help me and do not get in my way. When we found the Paladin he gave me a standing promise to kill me if I do anything that offends his morals - I promised to slay him if he ever tried. More than that, we realize we all benefit each other, so there is not much conflict. But enough about the background. I want to explore the possibilities of becomming more Fiendish - the benefits, the detriments, what it would entail, what I would have to sacrifice, etc. There would need to be a convincing storyline of course, one idea I had that with my current background wouldn't be out of the ordinary. Clearly, my family is a bunch of Evil Outsiders, but we all still look like Sun Elves. So it is possible, that being Wizards, they were doing experiments, and probably a grand breeding experiment within the family, merging Fiendish, and maybe captive Celestial blood into the families bloodline. Now, we haven't been comming out Tiefling's or Aasimars so we aren't actually breeding with the Outsiders, but we have some connection to outsider blood. Could be that as some of the family ages, they end up 'expressing' more of some of the Fiendish traits that run in the blood. But there'd also have to be a convincing reason to do this as well. As I mentioned above, the inherited Half-Dragon template was going to be a reward for a quest. So I would imagine this would need to be the same. Then there is what happens if I became Half-Fiendish. There are of course all the benefits that you can read in the Monster Manual. I'm not sure all of them would even surface though, because being an Evil Outsider already, I''m already a little Fiendish in a way. So how would my appearance warp if at all, etc? Then there is the huge question of how to deal with the level adjustment that would take place. Try to render it like a leveling and gain traits as I go up in level? Or give the traits all at once and just stop my Wizard lvl from going up for a long time? These are thing my DM would need to consider, but I'm throwing it out for suggesstions too. In the end, I'm still not entirely sure I'd even want to do this. I'm already an Evil Native Outsider, so my type wouldn't change, and I've already got the Darkvision from that - so most of my first picked Feat would be rendered useless. My PC is a pretty, aluring, and intelligent character, she takes pride in being able to seduce others. A warped Half-Fiend appearance could very much get in the way of that, and make things less fun, even given the benefits from the template. Then there is the question of the level adjustment as well. Wizards (all classes really) get power by leveling, +4 levels to wait before being able to gain a level in Wizard, doesn't seem to really be worth the wait in the powers you get as a Half-Fiend, but then I'm not really looking at taking on this template possibly for the powers, its really more for a storyline flavor type of thing. So I don't know. Could be my DM just says 'Forget it', and I back off and leave the idea alone for good, he hasn't gotten back to be yet on what he actually thinks of it yet, though I have been hoping to have an open and honest discussion about everything regarding this. Really, I'm open on this subject too. It's just an idea at this point. I'd like to hear some of your input about it, because I'm sure there are lots of things to consider that I haven't yet. And then I'd have more to be able to discuss with my DM about if he's open to the idea too. So let me hear the good, bad, and the ugly. Ponder outloud (at least on the keyboard), give suggestions, constructive criticism, why you would or would not ever let someone do this in your campaign, whatever. I'm leaving it open to a real brainstorming session, cause I just want to know what the rest of you think. :schemes:
Joseph Wolfgar 07-30-04, 07:35 PM	You might want to look at the Fey'ri entry in Races of Faerun. The Fey'ri are a group of fiendish sun-elves from the High-Forest. They are LA +2 or +3, depending on what powers you chose.
BladeBoy 07-31-04, 01:24 AM	Paladins and Evil NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE work together, not even if it would save the Pali's life, they can't do it. Doesn't mean they have to hunt you and kill you, but they can't aid you or anything.
Vexxan 07-31-04, 01:31 AM	Allying with evil, even if it is for a common goal, and there is no other means of doing it, and the outcome is for the immediate and long-term benefit of many good folk... is never an option. Paladins are never black and white. Alignment, as per the rules, is. Paladin's aren't just their alignment.
Rubicantbu 08-03-04, 02:48 PM	Originally posted by BladeBoy Paladins and Evil NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE work together, not even if it would save the Pali's life, they can't do it. Doesn't mean they have to hunt you and kill you, but they can't aid you or anything. That is true, the rules do say that. However, as Nez's DM, I sat down with both him and the Paladin(came into our game later on) and they agreed since they both had characters they wanted to play that wizards said "shouldn't be allowed to play together", that they would make a roleplaying opportunity with it. So the Paladin found himself resuced by a group who has an evil member(especially when she directly aided the paladin during the rescue). Now he is campaigning to turn the evil character to the side of good. I think it's great, personally. It's probably one of the best player-player storylines I've had just pop up out of nowhere. Rules are meant to be bent when they make the role-playing experience that much more enjoyable, right? Besides, he has her under a watchful eye anyway :D
Nezalhualixtlan 08-03-04, 02:56 PM	Originally posted by BladeBoy Paladins and Evil NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE work together, not even if it would save the Pali's life, they can't do it. And if the Paladin is trying to walk the exalted path and making a sincere effort to 'redeem' said evil character? Can't really expect to give someone the cold shoulder and then bring 'em over to your way of thinking now can you? Now the evil character may be trying to 'corrupt' said paladin at the same time, but then thats a matter of moral strength and character when it comes down to who if either win over the other. I know the PHB says specifically that a Paladin will never ever work with a character they know to be evil, or to put up with a character who consistently offends their morals, but if you take a look into the Book of Exalted Deeds, its quite clearly showing the moral crisis of a Paladin confronting two succubi. The succubi are creatures of pure evil, but they are also mates - Does the Paladin smite them because they are evil, or leave them be to honor love? Sure choosing to not kill, is something you said above, and is different from working together, but unlike Vex said, we enter a morally grey area, where things are not all black and white. If the paladin isn't in a black or white moral situation, then how can it be that his decisions on whether to ally with an evil character to bring about a greater good - so long as he isn't letting the evil character commit evil deeds - be black and white? Our paladin is playing in a morally complex world, and if his actions and decisions are always morally simple, at some point I'm betting he'll screw up. :devil:
meabolex 08-03-04, 03:17 PM	Well, there's always the case of a lawful good creature with the evil subtype. As far as all game effects go, a lawful good quasit is considered evil, lawful, chaotic and good. So, I could see a lawful good quasit working with a paladin. The terminology "always chaotic evil" doesn't mean "every individual that has ever existed is always chaotic evil" -- it means, with very few exceptions, quasits are chaotic evil.
PseudoYorimoto 08-03-04, 03:53 PM	Guys, let me just say, that this isn't a paladin discussion thread, please don't make this about that or this may get closed by the WizOs, lets focus on the Half-Fiend topic, PLEASE.
Hochi-min trail 08-03-04, 04:21 PM	yes sir! i had a good story about a paladin and a vampire, though... anyway... it depends. you do get energy resistances and some ability bonuses, and even a few spell-like abilities, and at those levels, these abilities can be great. your spells will be hurt, but this is good if youwant to become afighting wizard. if not, then stay away from the template, since most of them are not worth it. wizards made it realy hard to get a good character with templates.
Rubicantbu 08-03-04, 04:34 PM	Originally posted by Hochi-min trail wizards made it realy hard to get a good character with templates. I think what the templates do is they add some flavor, and power early on, but the benefits you get are diluted as you get higher in level, and IMO, not really worth the LA. Anyway, the half fiend idea would work better after his progression is done.
Autosponge 08-03-04, 05:00 PM	Go half-celestial and don't break the cardinal rule of party mix (paladins and evil don't).
Nezalhualixtlan 08-05-04, 05:22 PM	Originally posted by Autosponge Go half-celestial and don't break the cardinal rule of party mix (paladins and evil don't). It's far too late for that. I was present as the Neutral Evil Wizardress when we found the Paladin who decided to stay with us even though we were bringing a drug shipment back into Skullport. It was just an accident really that we happened to free him from the grip of a Goblin Wizard, his golem minions, and some Derro that he had under control - we really just came to reclaim a shipment of drugs the Goblin had waylaid from a rather powerful Dealer in Skullport. This was to get the information the Dealer had on a particular addict of his, who owed him anyway, that the group wanted to kill. My old character had been present when this addict, a doppelganger, had screwed us over - but my wizardress wasn't, so she didn't care much other than to get more power. But for the rest of the group revenge was the motivation. And still the Paladin came along. Happened that the Doppelganger was also a slaver, so the Paladin felt good about stopping that, but most of the group was in it for revenge and profit. I as a NE Wiz fit in more than the LG Exalted Pal. :schemes: And, I was there first. Not much longer, but a little, so the Paladin was free to leave if he wanted. ------------------------------------ But back to the original topic of discussion. I think I've decided not to go with the Half-Fiend idea until much later in my characters progression if that is alright with my DM. It's mostly because if I did, although I'd get some cool abilities in return, I'd really hamstring myself as far as my characters class progression is concerned. And I don't really feel like doing that now at least.
ck2001wendt 08-06-04, 07:47 AM	LA Buy-Off. Which you have to start on early, if you´re going to do it at all. It will never get you back to CL=ECL, but it will get you much closer than you would be making the switch at level 16.