A Fighter With Two Shields. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Fighter With Two Shields. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkLord93
08-06-07, 01:59 AM How about fighter holding two shields in each hand with no weapon. Just curious. What would happen?:confused:
Dragonsblood
08-06-07, 02:02 AM Reality as we know it would cease to exist.
Mock26
08-06-07, 02:04 AM You have two choices. The first is to follow the rules of the game, one of which states that two shields do not stack. Or, you invoke Rule 0 and allow the use of two shields and have the bonuses stack.

One house rule that I've seen is that they do stack if you have an extra pair of arms. So, a four-armed Grixxer could use two shields and get the bonuses to stack.
Ash2Dust
08-06-07, 02:05 AM My guess would be the shield bonuses to AC would not stack, but the character could treat one or both shields as a weapon in a given round. No real tactical advantage, but, if I might say so, it would look damn cool.
Mock26
08-06-07, 02:06 AM Reality as we know it would cease to exist.

Not true! Not true! It only seems to cease to exist. It has something to do with a trick of the light as it reflects reality off of the surfaces of the two shields. I remember learning about it back in physics class back in high school. :D
TorgSmackie
08-06-07, 03:13 AM I remember someone showing me a prestige class a while ago for wielding two shields that I think was posted here. I remember it worked like the duelist only instead of adding a point of Int to your AC per level, you add a point of shield bonus per level from a second shield.

If you can find that, that'd be good.
guru7892
08-06-07, 03:27 AM Reality as we know it would cease to exist.

QFT

the new stephen hawking theory will adjust the properties of light due to the presance of extreme forces in black holes (and how they react accordingly).

proton/wave refraction/depletion theroy doesnt work anymore, sorry.
High Octane
08-06-07, 03:31 AM The DM would start hating Samurai Jack for giving his player ideas.
DarkLord93
08-06-07, 07:51 AM My guess would be the shield bonuses to AC would not stack, but the character could treat one or both shields as a weapon in a given round. No real tactical advantage, but, if I might say so, it would look damn cool.

Yeah! It would look cool. But too bad it cant stack, it would have been real good.
:D
lastknightleft
08-06-07, 10:10 AM OMG :censored: why is it that someone posts this lame idea once a week, I'm sorry it's lame, you never saw people running around in medieval times with two shields because it wasn't a good idea, you really can't take a proper offensive, and if you want a high defense just get a bigger :censored: shield like say a tower shield. Only in game mechanics is it a plausible option but then everyone always wants to get full ac bonuses.
Mock26
08-06-07, 01:26 PM OMG :censored: why is it that someone posts this lame idea once a week, I'm sorry it's lame, you never saw people running around in medieval times with two shields because it wasn't a good idea, you really can't take a proper offensive, and if you want a high defense just get a bigger :censored: shield like say a tower shield. Only in game mechanics is it a plausible option but then everyone always wants to get full ac bonuses.

Actually, I was visiting 1410 the Battle of Grunwald the other day and all the young soldiers were running around with two shields! And, yes, they did look really cool as they did it. But, it was a short-lived fashion trend. Unfortunately, my time machine was acting up and I had to return to 2007 before I could see exactly how long this fashion trend lasted.
zzo38
08-06-07, 01:42 PM Maybe create a feat to let them stack, but not when you are attacking, even if you have a feat to keep your shield bonus when attacking.
Strange Guy
08-06-07, 02:26 PM OMG :censored: why is it that someone posts this lame idea once a week, I'm sorry it's lame, you never saw people running around in medieval times with two shields because it wasn't a good idea, you really can't take a proper offensive, and if you want a high defense just get a bigger :censored: shield like say a tower shield. Only in game mechanics is it a plausible option but then everyone always wants to get full ac bonuses.

Sorry to tell you but fighting with shields is part of traditionnal oriental martial arts. Saw a Kata of an old asian master and the guy was freaking cool. he would have probably kicked many swordfighters butts in a real fight.

As for the mechanics of it, I'd allow shield bonus to stack but only as follows primary player chooses a primary shield bonus that is applied completely and all the others give 50% of their bonuses.

fighting with shields is already not easy it would allow for more use of shield bashes as i have not seen it used once in the 3.X versions.

in 2 edition i house ruled some minor damage and added a small stun effect to hit and some players used it on minor critters as bigger ones usually had appropriate saves to makes bashes stuns irrelevent.
Tzor
08-06-07, 03:06 PM How about fighter holding two shields in each hand with no weapon. Just curious. What would happen? :confused:

He would look just like my Quackerjack bobblehead.

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL291/1756382/14889543/254524834.jpg

OK time to get serious. (But Quackerack is serious ...) A fighter has to do something so check out the rules for shield bash.

You can bash an opponent with a light shield or heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Shield, light special 1d2 1d3 ×2 — special Bludgeoning
Shield, heavy special 1d3 1d4 ×2 — special Bludgeoning

Note this rule assumes you are using a weapon and a shield. If you use two shields one of them would probably be your primary weapon.

Now let's go to two weapon fighting.

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

Normal penalties -6 -10
Off-hand weapon is light -4 -8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat -4 -4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat -2 -2

So like what do you want to do today?

You can use two heavy shields, bash with one each round and retain the AC bonus from the other shield. You can also as a full round action bash with both shields using the appropriate penalty loosing the AC bonus for the round.

There you have it. Really you are no sillier looking than that guy with the spiked chain, or the other bizzare weapons, especially if you spiked your shields.

GO DUCKS
lastknightleft
08-06-07, 04:57 PM hey what if he was blind and fought with two shields wouldn't that be awesome:confused:
HassanNinkin
08-06-07, 05:02 PM Here's an idea. The AC bonus for the second shield is only applied against one enemy, declared at their initiative, like the Dodge feat
Aryxbez
08-06-07, 05:17 PM Well D&D is a fantasy medieval so I don't think this is a bad idea at all. Also Samurai jack is too awesome, No DM in his/her right mind could hate him.

Also for balance, I would just allow it using a feat, then with Improved shield bash, they can now fight with two shields. Prerequisite would likely be shield Specialization
Zarron
08-06-07, 06:25 PM Skip Two Weapon Fighting tree if you want and get Agile Shield Fighter instead. It frees up stats (no need for Dex 15), but it does require a rather lackluster shield feat (+1 shield bonus to a specific kind of shield) to get.
Zerchai
08-06-07, 07:58 PM A very nice prestige class by Tyler Do'Urden was posted on the boards a while ago that addresses this exact proposed build. It was so nice, that I bookmarked it :) Hope this helps.

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-727343
DarkLord93
08-06-07, 10:17 PM Thanks for so many good infos, guys. It makes me wanna look more into it!:D
pres_man
08-06-07, 10:43 PM Even though the ACs wouldn't stack (you'd take the highest), any different special abilities on each one would. So if one had arrow catching and the other had blinding, you could use both abilities.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable
08-06-07, 11:33 PM Sorry to tell you but fighting with shields is part of traditionnal oriental martial arts. Saw a Kata of an old asian master and the guy was freaking cool. he would have probably kicked many swordfighters butts in a real fight.

.

True. Except for the but-kicking part. There is still a very obvious reason why 999.9999 fighters used reagular weapons on the battlefield. And it is neither availability nor lack of trainning :)

Still, to be realistic, you would have to use twin bucklers, as the 2 shields used in martial arts are small and kinda light-weight (at least in the form I know about). No sense wielding dual tower shields or even small shields! You would also definetly need the exotic weapon proficiency (twin shields) for this.

And yes, you would look cool. And unique. That alone would make me allow it in my games. A unique look/fighting style might not be as cost-effective/efficient/deadly than the "classic min-max weapons" (bastard sword, I'm growing into hating you...), but it gives some life to the PC.

Anyway, those were my 3 cents and a half.
Mock26
08-06-07, 11:37 PM You could use two curved tower shields with a top on it and then in the face of serious danger you could pull the shields together and do your best imitation of a pillar! If you have enough ranks in Bluff no one will know that you are really a cowardly fighter in disguise! :D Or, better yet, paint them up and disguise yourself as a totem pole!
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable
08-08-07, 02:39 AM :D Or, better yet, paint them up and disguise yourself as a totem pole!

... or as a cardboard box. As any competent commando know, people ALWAYS overlook a cardboard box.
CroBob
08-08-07, 04:23 AM What a wonderful character concept! I'm going to make a dual-shielder!
Infernostrider
08-08-07, 06:39 AM Not true! Not true! It only seems to cease to exist. It has something to do with a trick of the light as it reflects reality off of the surfaces of the two shields. I remember learning about it back in physics class back in high school. :D

actually, i'd allow it to stack because of the fact its harder to get past 2 blocking shields then one. the problem is, you have no weapons (except mayby spikes on a shield)

using 2 tower shields, on the other hand, would make me rule that the char looses his dex bonus fully, but can only be attacked from the sides or back because his front is completely covered, and you'd need an improved sunder to get past it or summin?
Pegasos989
08-08-07, 10:07 AM Hai guys! My player just got awesome idea!

He wants to play a chaotic blind monk/paladin with vow of poverty, dual wielding two shields! Should I give him blindsight 30 ft. for being blind?!

AEEERRGGGHHHH! MAKE THEM STOP!

But game mechanically it is plausible by two weapon fighting and shield bashing with both. Not even all that weak. (any more than normal TWF) He would only get bonuses from 1, though.

Even better yet is to have one heavy shield that you use as two-handed weapon. Mechanically, that is.

For all of you suggesting allowing them to stack or a feat allowing them to stack... No.

Think of it's effect in game. A character has A LOT higher AC than anyone else (assuming he has those styles, he propably concentrates on AC otherwise too). Any monster capable of hitting him always hits others and if it hits others only part of the time, it never hits him. Fight is always stupid for half of the melee'ers.
Strange Guy
08-08-07, 10:34 AM he still used 1 to 2 feats to do this which means he probably didnt take some other feats that would increase his damage output. I think it would be balanced.
nightside_samurai
08-08-07, 10:41 AM For all of you suggesting allowing them to stack or a feat allowing them to stack... No.

Think of it's effect in game. A character has A LOT higher AC than anyone else (assuming he has those styles, he propably concentrates on AC otherwise too). Any monster capable of hitting him always hits others and if it hits others only part of the time, it never hits him. Fight is always stupid for half of the melee'ers.

Oh my god did someone take away my mighty DM magic? Is my rule 0 spell lost from my spellbook?...No? So stop telling people how to run their games. It's all well and good to present an opinion about the situation but don't try and tell other people what to do as if you're the god of D&D and only you know how to play it. [/rant]

As for the 2 shielding, I'd limit it to light shields for them to stack fully, but if they used heavier ones they'd take Dex penalties for the loss of maneuverability.

If they decided to use 2 Tower Shields I'd reduce their movement to 5' every round and leave it at that.
B4life
08-08-07, 10:49 AM BTW, if he is playing a dwarf, make him play a dwarven defender... that will be a monstrous pile of AC.
Pegasos989
08-08-07, 12:18 PM Oh my god did someone take away my mighty DM magic? Is my rule 0 spell lost from my spellbook?...No? So stop telling people how to run their games. It's all well and good to present an opinion about the situation but don't try and tell other people what to do as if you're the god of D&D and only you know how to play it. [/rant]

Get that sand out of your... :D

Everything written is either a fact or your view/opinion on something. I already wrote the facts (how shield styles work game mechanically) and after that, no rule says how something like that affects encounters, so it should be automatically assumed to be my opinion or view on the subject.

If we are done with who can tell who and what and how, back to the topic...

Limiting them to only light shields stacking sounds (in my opinion) feasible but then, why rather have two light shields than one heavy? You are effectively taking (in my opinion) significantly weaker style for (in my opinion) no other reason than the flavor of having two shields? Flavor is (in my opinion) important but crippling a character for that doubtly makes the game much more fun even for the player in the long run.

BTW, is the OP just asking opinions or does he have actually such a situation in front of him? With more specific knowledge of intended build/style/concept we could (in my opinon) help a lot more.
Solik
08-08-07, 02:45 PM The primary advantage of this tactic was described earlier by another poster -- stacking special shield enchantments. In order to get the most out of this, you're going to need to be flexible with your shields. Both of them need to double as weapons. That can mean spikes, but you have a better option.

Races of Stone describes a weapon called a Dwarven buckler-axe. It's an exotic weapon that has decent attack capabilities and also functions as a buckler. Since it's Dwarven, if you follow suggestions in the Races books, you can swap out other Dwarven racial proficiencies (that is, the Waraxe) for proficiency in the buckler-axe, thus bypassing the exotic requirement.

Mix one of these with either a heavy shield or a tower shield. You'll get more AC from that one, and the higher AC bonus is what will win out. If you spike it, you'll also be capable of doing piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage in any given round!

I'd then recommend going for a Tome of Battle class. You're not going to get much from dual-wielding shields, and there's better sword-and-board fighting styles than this. With maneuvers, though, you can augment your sub-par offense with a variety of useful abilities. What's more, since those are standard actions, you can use a move action to change your shields. This is useful, because you'll probably want to carry a truckload of shields with different enchantments on them to get the most out of your shield enchantment stackage. Being able to swap them out and still get off a cool move every round is very nice. Alternatively, you could take Quick Draw, I suppose.

If you seriously optimize this concept, you can end up with something that's of pretty average power. That makes it cool in my book; just don't try using it in a high-power campaign. It's a great type of character for optimizers who are playing in lower-power (standard) campaigns, though!
Pegasos989
08-08-07, 04:10 PM Solik had a very good post but one thing caught my attention.

Alternatively, you could take Quick Draw, I suppose.

I am somewhat of a rules lawyer and naturally this could be houseruled (and I would personally allow it, just curious on what the rules say) but... Quickdraw lets you draw a weapon as a free action.

Is a shield counted as a weapon? It can be used for attacking but well, anything can. Shield is indeed listed also under the martial weapons in table 7-5 of PHB but it's description in weapons is "You can bash with a shield instead of using it for defence. See Armor later in this chapter" so I am still not quite sure if shield is really a weapon.

(Now talking about regular shields, not buckler axes)
Solik
08-08-07, 06:42 PM Dunno. It might be worth it for the buckler-axe alone, which would almost certainly count. After all, your heavy/tower shield is probably going to be optimized for AC, so you may only have straight +X on it, with the buckler-axes making up your other defensive enchantments (since having values beyond +1 on it are next to worthless).

I guess it's a little iffy to let it work for regular shields, since you could theoretically use the same argument with armor spikes to free action equip spiked armor :p
supersod
08-08-07, 06:58 PM when i read this i got a picture in my head of a dwarf wearing 3 roman legionaire type tower sheild, one on his back and one on each arm which clip together to make a big angry walking cylinder, you could even put a lid on him.
Mock26
08-08-07, 07:32 PM Of course, let's not forget all the great uses you can get from using two shields. For example, if you have a pit filled with acid or mud or whatever, the fighter can step in, with the two shields raised over his head, and create two stepping stones for everyone else!
DarkLord93
08-08-07, 09:17 PM BTW, if he is playing a dwarf, make him play a dwarven defender... that will be a monstrous pile of AC.

LOL...:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkLord93 08-06-07, 01:59 AM	How about fighter holding two shields in each hand with no weapon. Just curious. What would happen?:confused:
Dragonsblood 08-06-07, 02:02 AM	Reality as we know it would cease to exist.
Mock26 08-06-07, 02:04 AM	You have two choices. The first is to follow the rules of the game, one of which states that two shields do not stack. Or, you invoke Rule 0 and allow the use of two shields and have the bonuses stack. One house rule that I've seen is that they do stack if you have an extra pair of arms. So, a four-armed Grixxer could use two shields and get the bonuses to stack.
Ash2Dust 08-06-07, 02:05 AM	My guess would be the shield bonuses to AC would not stack, but the character could treat one or both shields as a weapon in a given round. No real tactical advantage, but, if I might say so, it would look damn cool.
Mock26 08-06-07, 02:06 AM	Reality as we know it would cease to exist. Not true! Not true! It only seems to cease to exist. It has something to do with a trick of the light as it reflects reality off of the surfaces of the two shields. I remember learning about it back in physics class back in high school. :D
TorgSmackie 08-06-07, 03:13 AM	I remember someone showing me a prestige class a while ago for wielding two shields that I think was posted here. I remember it worked like the duelist only instead of adding a point of Int to your AC per level, you add a point of shield bonus per level from a second shield. If you can find that, that'd be good.
guru7892 08-06-07, 03:27 AM	Reality as we know it would cease to exist. QFT the new stephen hawking theory will adjust the properties of light due to the presance of extreme forces in black holes (and how they react accordingly). proton/wave refraction/depletion theroy doesnt work anymore, sorry.
High Octane 08-06-07, 03:31 AM	The DM would start hating Samurai Jack for giving his player ideas.
DarkLord93 08-06-07, 07:51 AM	My guess would be the shield bonuses to AC would not stack, but the character could treat one or both shields as a weapon in a given round. No real tactical advantage, but, if I might say so, it would look damn cool. Yeah! It would look cool. But too bad it cant stack, it would have been real good. :D
lastknightleft 08-06-07, 10:10 AM	OMG :censored: why is it that someone posts this lame idea once a week, I'm sorry it's lame, you never saw people running around in medieval times with two shields because it wasn't a good idea, you really can't take a proper offensive, and if you want a high defense just get a bigger :censored: shield like say a tower shield. Only in game mechanics is it a plausible option but then everyone always wants to get full ac bonuses.
Mock26 08-06-07, 01:26 PM	OMG :censored: why is it that someone posts this lame idea once a week, I'm sorry it's lame, you never saw people running around in medieval times with two shields because it wasn't a good idea, you really can't take a proper offensive, and if you want a high defense just get a bigger :censored: shield like say a tower shield. Only in game mechanics is it a plausible option but then everyone always wants to get full ac bonuses. Actually, I was visiting 1410 the Battle of Grunwald the other day and all the young soldiers were running around with two shields! And, yes, they did look really cool as they did it. But, it was a short-lived fashion trend. Unfortunately, my time machine was acting up and I had to return to 2007 before I could see exactly how long this fashion trend lasted.
zzo38 08-06-07, 01:42 PM	Maybe create a feat to let them stack, but not when you are attacking, even if you have a feat to keep your shield bonus when attacking.
Strange Guy 08-06-07, 02:26 PM	OMG :censored: why is it that someone posts this lame idea once a week, I'm sorry it's lame, you never saw people running around in medieval times with two shields because it wasn't a good idea, you really can't take a proper offensive, and if you want a high defense just get a bigger :censored: shield like say a tower shield. Only in game mechanics is it a plausible option but then everyone always wants to get full ac bonuses. Sorry to tell you but fighting with shields is part of traditionnal oriental martial arts. Saw a Kata of an old asian master and the guy was freaking cool. he would have probably kicked many swordfighters butts in a real fight. As for the mechanics of it, I'd allow shield bonus to stack but only as follows primary player chooses a primary shield bonus that is applied completely and all the others give 50% of their bonuses. fighting with shields is already not easy it would allow for more use of shield bashes as i have not seen it used once in the 3.X versions. in 2 edition i house ruled some minor damage and added a small stun effect to hit and some players used it on minor critters as bigger ones usually had appropriate saves to makes bashes stuns irrelevent.
Tzor 08-06-07, 03:06 PM	How about fighter holding two shields in each hand with no weapon. Just curious. What would happen? :confused: He would look just like my Quackerjack bobblehead. http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL291/1756382/14889543/254524834.jpg OK time to get serious. (But Quackerack is serious ...) A fighter has to do something so check out the rules for shield bash. You can bash an opponent with a light shield or heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right. Shield, light special 1d2 1d3 ×2 — special Bludgeoning Shield, heavy special 1d3 1d4 ×2 — special Bludgeoning Note this rule assumes you are using a weapon and a shield. If you use two shields one of them would probably be your primary weapon. Now let's go to two weapon fighting. If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. Normal penalties -6 -10 Off-hand weapon is light -4 -8 Two-Weapon Fighting feat -4 -4 Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat -2 -2 So like what do you want to do today? You can use two heavy shields, bash with one each round and retain the AC bonus from the other shield. You can also as a full round action bash with both shields using the appropriate penalty loosing the AC bonus for the round. There you have it. Really you are no sillier looking than that guy with the spiked chain, or the other bizzare weapons, especially if you spiked your shields. GO DUCKS
lastknightleft 08-06-07, 04:57 PM	hey what if he was blind and fought with two shields wouldn't that be awesome:confused:
HassanNinkin 08-06-07, 05:02 PM	Here's an idea. The AC bonus for the second shield is only applied against one enemy, declared at their initiative, like the Dodge feat
Aryxbez 08-06-07, 05:17 PM	Well D&D is a fantasy medieval so I don't think this is a bad idea at all. Also Samurai jack is too awesome, No DM in his/her right mind could hate him. Also for balance, I would just allow it using a feat, then with Improved shield bash, they can now fight with two shields. Prerequisite would likely be shield Specialization
Zarron 08-06-07, 06:25 PM	Skip Two Weapon Fighting tree if you want and get Agile Shield Fighter instead. It frees up stats (no need for Dex 15), but it does require a rather lackluster shield feat (+1 shield bonus to a specific kind of shield) to get.
Zerchai 08-06-07, 07:58 PM	A very nice prestige class by Tyler Do'Urden was posted on the boards a while ago that addresses this exact proposed build. It was so nice, that I bookmarked it :) Hope this helps. http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-727343
DarkLord93 08-06-07, 10:17 PM	Thanks for so many good infos, guys. It makes me wanna look more into it!:D
pres_man 08-06-07, 10:43 PM	Even though the ACs wouldn't stack (you'd take the highest), any different special abilities on each one would. So if one had arrow catching and the other had blinding, you could use both abilities.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 08-06-07, 11:33 PM	Sorry to tell you but fighting with shields is part of traditionnal oriental martial arts. Saw a Kata of an old asian master and the guy was freaking cool. he would have probably kicked many swordfighters butts in a real fight. . True. Except for the but-kicking part. There is still a very obvious reason why 999.9999 fighters used reagular weapons on the battlefield. And it is neither availability nor lack of trainning :) Still, to be realistic, you would have to use twin bucklers, as the 2 shields used in martial arts are small and kinda light-weight (at least in the form I know about). No sense wielding dual tower shields or even small shields! You would also definetly need the exotic weapon proficiency (twin shields) for this. And yes, you would look cool. And unique. That alone would make me allow it in my games. A unique look/fighting style might not be as cost-effective/efficient/deadly than the "classic min-max weapons" (bastard sword, I'm growing into hating you...), but it gives some life to the PC. Anyway, those were my 3 cents and a half.
Mock26 08-06-07, 11:37 PM	You could use two curved tower shields with a top on it and then in the face of serious danger you could pull the shields together and do your best imitation of a pillar! If you have enough ranks in Bluff no one will know that you are really a cowardly fighter in disguise! :D Or, better yet, paint them up and disguise yourself as a totem pole!
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 08-08-07, 02:39 AM	:D Or, better yet, paint them up and disguise yourself as a totem pole! ... or as a cardboard box. As any competent commando know, people ALWAYS overlook a cardboard box.
CroBob 08-08-07, 04:23 AM	What a wonderful character concept! I'm going to make a dual-shielder!
Infernostrider 08-08-07, 06:39 AM	Not true! Not true! It only seems to cease to exist. It has something to do with a trick of the light as it reflects reality off of the surfaces of the two shields. I remember learning about it back in physics class back in high school. :D actually, i'd allow it to stack because of the fact its harder to get past 2 blocking shields then one. the problem is, you have no weapons (except mayby spikes on a shield) using 2 tower shields, on the other hand, would make me rule that the char looses his dex bonus fully, but can only be attacked from the sides or back because his front is completely covered, and you'd need an improved sunder to get past it or summin?
Pegasos989 08-08-07, 10:07 AM	Hai guys! My player just got awesome idea! He wants to play a chaotic blind monk/paladin with vow of poverty, dual wielding two shields! Should I give him blindsight 30 ft. for being blind?! AEEERRGGGHHHH! MAKE THEM STOP! But game mechanically it is plausible by two weapon fighting and shield bashing with both. Not even all that weak. (any more than normal TWF) He would only get bonuses from 1, though. Even better yet is to have one heavy shield that you use as two-handed weapon. Mechanically, that is. For all of you suggesting allowing them to stack or a feat allowing them to stack... No. Think of it's effect in game. A character has A LOT higher AC than anyone else (assuming he has those styles, he propably concentrates on AC otherwise too). Any monster capable of hitting him always hits others and if it hits others only part of the time, it never hits him. Fight is always stupid for half of the melee'ers.
Strange Guy 08-08-07, 10:34 AM	he still used 1 to 2 feats to do this which means he probably didnt take some other feats that would increase his damage output. I think it would be balanced.
nightside_samurai 08-08-07, 10:41 AM	For all of you suggesting allowing them to stack or a feat allowing them to stack... No. Think of it's effect in game. A character has A LOT higher AC than anyone else (assuming he has those styles, he propably concentrates on AC otherwise too). Any monster capable of hitting him always hits others and if it hits others only part of the time, it never hits him. Fight is always stupid for half of the melee'ers. Oh my god did someone take away my mighty DM magic? Is my rule 0 spell lost from my spellbook?...No? So stop telling people how to run their games. It's all well and good to present an opinion about the situation but don't try and tell other people what to do as if you're the god of D&D and only you know how to play it. [/rant] As for the 2 shielding, I'd limit it to light shields for them to stack fully, but if they used heavier ones they'd take Dex penalties for the loss of maneuverability. If they decided to use 2 Tower Shields I'd reduce their movement to 5' every round and leave it at that.
B4life 08-08-07, 10:49 AM	BTW, if he is playing a dwarf, make him play a dwarven defender... that will be a monstrous pile of AC.
Pegasos989 08-08-07, 12:18 PM	Oh my god did someone take away my mighty DM magic? Is my rule 0 spell lost from my spellbook?...No? So stop telling people how to run their games. It's all well and good to present an opinion about the situation but don't try and tell other people what to do as if you're the god of D&D and only you know how to play it. [/rant] Get that sand out of your... :D Everything written is either a fact or your view/opinion on something. I already wrote the facts (how shield styles work game mechanically) and after that, no rule says how something like that affects encounters, so it should be automatically assumed to be my opinion or view on the subject. If we are done with who can tell who and what and how, back to the topic... Limiting them to only light shields stacking sounds (in my opinion) feasible but then, why rather have two light shields than one heavy? You are effectively taking (in my opinion) significantly weaker style for (in my opinion) no other reason than the flavor of having two shields? Flavor is (in my opinion) important but crippling a character for that doubtly makes the game much more fun even for the player in the long run. BTW, is the OP just asking opinions or does he have actually such a situation in front of him? With more specific knowledge of intended build/style/concept we could (in my opinon) help a lot more.
Solik 08-08-07, 02:45 PM	The primary advantage of this tactic was described earlier by another poster -- stacking special shield enchantments. In order to get the most out of this, you're going to need to be flexible with your shields. Both of them need to double as weapons. That can mean spikes, but you have a better option. Races of Stone describes a weapon called a Dwarven buckler-axe. It's an exotic weapon that has decent attack capabilities and also functions as a buckler. Since it's Dwarven, if you follow suggestions in the Races books, you can swap out other Dwarven racial proficiencies (that is, the Waraxe) for proficiency in the buckler-axe, thus bypassing the exotic requirement. Mix one of these with either a heavy shield or a tower shield. You'll get more AC from that one, and the higher AC bonus is what will win out. If you spike it, you'll also be capable of doing piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage in any given round! I'd then recommend going for a Tome of Battle class. You're not going to get much from dual-wielding shields, and there's better sword-and-board fighting styles than this. With maneuvers, though, you can augment your sub-par offense with a variety of useful abilities. What's more, since those are standard actions, you can use a move action to change your shields. This is useful, because you'll probably want to carry a truckload of shields with different enchantments on them to get the most out of your shield enchantment stackage. Being able to swap them out and still get off a cool move every round is very nice. Alternatively, you could take Quick Draw, I suppose. If you seriously optimize this concept, you can end up with something that's of pretty average power. That makes it cool in my book; just don't try using it in a high-power campaign. It's a great type of character for optimizers who are playing in lower-power (standard) campaigns, though!
Pegasos989 08-08-07, 04:10 PM	Solik had a very good post but one thing caught my attention. Alternatively, you could take Quick Draw, I suppose. I am somewhat of a rules lawyer and naturally this could be houseruled (and I would personally allow it, just curious on what the rules say) but... Quickdraw lets you draw a weapon as a free action. Is a shield counted as a weapon? It can be used for attacking but well, anything can. Shield is indeed listed also under the martial weapons in table 7-5 of PHB but it's description in weapons is "You can bash with a shield instead of using it for defence. See Armor later in this chapter" so I am still not quite sure if shield is really a weapon. (Now talking about regular shields, not buckler axes)
Solik 08-08-07, 06:42 PM	Dunno. It might be worth it for the buckler-axe alone, which would almost certainly count. After all, your heavy/tower shield is probably going to be optimized for AC, so you may only have straight +X on it, with the buckler-axes making up your other defensive enchantments (since having values beyond +1 on it are next to worthless). I guess it's a little iffy to let it work for regular shields, since you could theoretically use the same argument with armor spikes to free action equip spiked armor :p
supersod 08-08-07, 06:58 PM	when i read this i got a picture in my head of a dwarf wearing 3 roman legionaire type tower sheild, one on his back and one on each arm which clip together to make a big angry walking cylinder, you could even put a lid on him.
Mock26 08-08-07, 07:32 PM	Of course, let's not forget all the great uses you can get from using two shields. For example, if you have a pit filled with acid or mud or whatever, the fighter can step in, with the two shields raised over his head, and create two stepping stones for everyone else!
DarkLord93 08-08-07, 09:17 PM	BTW, if he is playing a dwarf, make him play a dwarven defender... that will be a monstrous pile of AC. LOL...:D