A formula for maxing HP? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A formula for maxing HP? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Twoswords
11-30-04, 10:14 AM Something I have always found a bit silly is that your HP depends on two things, CON and luck. And with the CON roll, you need luck as well.

So is there anyone out there that have given some thought about this and come up with some formula for spending XP to max your HP?

Example: Dennis the Fighter has gotten to third level. He has rolled a 7, 6 and 4 for HP which gives him a total of 17 HP and he has max CON bonus for another 12 HP.
However, the max he can roll on a HP dice is 10 so at level three he has missed out on 30-17 = 13 HP.

What I am looking for is a good way to spend XP to buy those missing HP up. I thought about just taking the Level x HP he is going to which would at this point be 3x18= 54 xp, then 3x19= 57 xp etc (you disregard the CON hp bonus from this) but realised that IMO you pay to little in the beginning and to much in the end. Or?

Any input would be greatly appreciated. I am hoping to find a good version that takes into account if classes who's HP Dice is a D4 or D6 also wants to do this.

Marcus
right now player of "Rakim the Bard" and enjoying it.. :)
Thomar_of_Uointer
11-30-04, 10:23 AM Take the randomness out of it and use averages. Here's an example for a d10 Hit Die:

Lv HP
1 10
2 15
3 21
4 26
5 32
6 37
7 43
8 48
9 54
10 59

It works like this:
The average roll for a d10 is 5 and a half. At level 1, you get full hp. At every even level after that, you get the average rounded down (5 for d10), and every odd level after that you get the average rounded up (6 for d10). I'm pretty sure that this is how they run Living Greyhawk.
Twoswords
11-30-04, 11:21 AM AH, its not the rolls I object against since we all start differently enough. However, what I want to do is get an option for maximizing the HP after you have rolled, instead of being stuck for an entire campaign with a few bad rolls.

We have often heard of the "Big guy with the glass jaw" or the "Small tough guy". I want the possibility for PC's to reflect that if they want, but at the cost of that they will level just a bit slower.
starfire311
11-30-04, 11:37 AM or you can just do it like the RPGA and my gaming groupd does we do 1/2 die +1 w/ max at first level

so
d4 = 3 hp
d6 = 4 hp
d8 = 5 hp
d10 = 6 hp
d12 = 7 hp

thus my current character 4th level Barbarian/2nd Level Fighter/1st level Champion of Gynhawf Dwarf with a 20 con and improved toughness has

94=12(1st level Barb)+21(3 levels barb)+12(2 levels fighter)+7(1 level champ of G)+35(con)+7(Imp tough)

and 108 when raging
Twoswords
11-30-04, 11:50 AM Ok, its not the randomness of the rolls I have anything against, its the current inability to change that roll later on.

So rolling a 2 out of a 10 is perfectly fine, but I want to find a way for the player to gain those 8 points that he/she potentially also could have rolled.

In effect, the player would put some work in toughening up, thereby gaining those 8 hit points for that level, but for a cost of XP and time. (and I am not after raising CON either..its actually just thoise HP.. :)
starfire311
11-30-04, 12:43 PM here is an idea for buying my HP up to the characters maximum.

How about XP cost = 50 times level per HP bought

so for a 3rd level character it would be 150xp per HP

Seems ok to me but as always YMMV.

FYI I wouldn't allow this in my game.
Twoswords
11-30-04, 12:57 PM Hmm, that sounds like a pretty good version of it.

Normally the HP thing isnt much to care about, but this time around we are doing a pretty specialized campaign where rules like this would fit well in. :)
chrome_gnome
11-30-04, 01:09 PM For ECL = 1 character races we know the formula for leveling up is 1000xp times the new level. For example a 2nd level character wanting to move to 3rd needs 3000xp more than he has at the start of level 2, or a total of 6000xp. This is a kind of "budget" we have to work with. The basic determination that we have to make is how much of this "budget" should be expended to pay for the missed HP?

To me something like 25-50xp per level per hitpoint sounds about right. If our second level hero missed out on 3 hit points upon making second level and we use the 50xp rate he would need an extra 50 * 2 * 3 = 300xp. That is an extra 10% of xp he'll need to move from level 2 to 3 because he is going to "burn" 300xp on buying those points as soon as he earns them as a level 2 player.

Now you may think 25 or 50 per level per hit point is steep but look at how powerful a handful of hitpoints become. At levels 2 and 3 those extra 3 hit points he bought could easily make the difference in winning a fight or dying. As a character levels up a lack of 5 or 6 hit points isn't going to break the bank but the cumlative effects of a few lost per level could.

As for having a different system for the different hit dice I'm not 100% sure it would be a good idea. If I had to pick a method I'd probably use something like 50xp rate (d4), 40xp rate (d6), 30xp rate (d8), 20xp rate (d10) and 10xp rate for d12 hit dice. This would reflect the hit points of low hit dice classes as being a larger portion of the possible maximum. 1 hp to a wizard is a big deal (25% of max), 1 hp to a warrior is only (10%). The wizard's hit points are worth 2.5 times what the warriors are worth which is matched by the cost of 50xp per for the d4 HD and 20xp per for the d10 HD, a multiple of 2.5 times the xp.

Its a idea, run with it as you will.
Aeromus
11-30-04, 01:49 PM When my playerslevel up in a "powerful" campaign, I have them pick one of two methods.

Half+1 (3,4,5,6,7) or roll once, and then keep it, or have myself (the DM) roll and they keep my roll better or worse.
Stuntman
11-30-04, 02:22 PM Something I have always found a bit silly is that your HP depends on two things, CON and luck. And with the CON roll, you need luck as well.

So is there anyone out there that have given some thought about this and come up with some formula for spending XP to max your HP?

What exactly is the real issue here? Is it that you do not like the randomness factor? Is it that the hit points are too few?

If you do not like the randomness with regard to hit points, you can simply use the point buy method and average hit point method together. This way, there is no luck in determining your Con and hp. Problem solved.

If you find that the hit points are too few, then I would advise against changing anything and just bite the bullet on this. If you start upping hit points of everyone, you end up changing the dynamics of the game. You make damage dealing effects (like combat and damage spells) less effective and make save or die spells more effective. Any way of granting more hit points outside of the normal rules of the game may have detrimental effects.

There are already in-game methods of increasing your hit points. The Toughness and Improved Toughness feats are one way. Yes, they do have the cost of a feat, but there should be a cost to everything. Get a magical item that improves your Con is another. Wish spells can also improve your Con.

Just trading XP for hit points just doesn't seem right to me. It makes it too easy and cheap to get a hit points boost. The game is balanced as it is with regard to hp.
deadDMwalking
11-30-04, 02:52 PM I actually like the suggestion chrome_gnome made. For my next campaign I was thinking of allowing all characters maximum hit points at each level and giving all monsters max hp also.

We had previously used the rule allowing you to roll hit points and re-roll 1s. Of course, this favors the d4 hit dice far too much.

Although, considering the importance of hit dice to the various classes, I would probably charge wizards more and fighters less, but not quite the way chrome_gnome suggests.

First of all, I would also only let them buy a single hit die at a time. If they went from 2nd to 3rd level, and they chose to keep their roll (let's say it is 9), then at 3rd to 4th level (let's say they roll a 4) they could only buy 6 hit points (assuming they rolled a d10). I wouldn't let them purchase hit points they did not buy earlier.

I would charge 25 x level x each hit point for d10 and d12 HD classes.
I would charge 50 for d8, 75 for d6 and 100 for d4.

Or I would make it all the same and just charge 50/level, but I think I prefer the variable cost.
jerrylee
11-30-04, 03:44 PM In many of my campaigns (both those I have DMed and those I have played in) we have simply given maximum hitpoints for each hitdie. Honestly, it doesn't seem to imbalance things that much, if the still-high number of close calls is any indication. I would rather err on the side of making things a little too easy than much too frustrating.

Most recently, we have tried rolling for HP, but reroll anything less than half. So on a d10, only results of 6-10 would be accepted. This seems to work at reintroducing the random element without ******* anybody off to too great an extent.

edit: sorry, I'm used to posting on boards where references to urination are not something that readers need to be guarded against.
StevenO
11-30-04, 07:41 PM If you want to allow spending XP to increase HP you should definitely take die size into account. I'd also only allow increasing HP on your last roll to keep book keeping down. My suggested formula is;

XP/hp = (500xp x level) / HDmax. Feel free to change the 500xp.

This make d10s=50 x lv., d4s=125 x lv. It should cost wizards more.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Twoswords 11-30-04, 10:14 AM	Something I have always found a bit silly is that your HP depends on two things, CON and luck. And with the CON roll, you need luck as well. So is there anyone out there that have given some thought about this and come up with some formula for spending XP to max your HP? Example: Dennis the Fighter has gotten to third level. He has rolled a 7, 6 and 4 for HP which gives him a total of 17 HP and he has max CON bonus for another 12 HP. However, the max he can roll on a HP dice is 10 so at level three he has missed out on 30-17 = 13 HP. What I am looking for is a good way to spend XP to buy those missing HP up. I thought about just taking the Level x HP he is going to which would at this point be 3x18= 54 xp, then 3x19= 57 xp etc (you disregard the CON hp bonus from this) but realised that IMO you pay to little in the beginning and to much in the end. Or? Any input would be greatly appreciated. I am hoping to find a good version that takes into account if classes who's HP Dice is a D4 or D6 also wants to do this. Marcus right now player of "Rakim the Bard" and enjoying it.. :)
Thomar_of_Uointer 11-30-04, 10:23 AM	Take the randomness out of it and use averages. Here's an example for a d10 Hit Die: Lv HP 1 10 2 15 3 21 4 26 5 32 6 37 7 43 8 48 9 54 10 59 It works like this: The average roll for a d10 is 5 and a half. At level 1, you get full hp. At every even level after that, you get the average rounded down (5 for d10), and every odd level after that you get the average rounded up (6 for d10). I'm pretty sure that this is how they run Living Greyhawk.
Twoswords 11-30-04, 11:21 AM	AH, its not the rolls I object against since we all start differently enough. However, what I want to do is get an option for maximizing the HP after you have rolled, instead of being stuck for an entire campaign with a few bad rolls. We have often heard of the "Big guy with the glass jaw" or the "Small tough guy". I want the possibility for PC's to reflect that if they want, but at the cost of that they will level just a bit slower.
starfire311 11-30-04, 11:37 AM	or you can just do it like the RPGA and my gaming groupd does we do 1/2 die +1 w/ max at first level so d4 = 3 hp d6 = 4 hp d8 = 5 hp d10 = 6 hp d12 = 7 hp thus my current character 4th level Barbarian/2nd Level Fighter/1st level Champion of Gynhawf Dwarf with a 20 con and improved toughness has 94=12(1st level Barb)+21(3 levels barb)+12(2 levels fighter)+7(1 level champ of G)+35(con)+7(Imp tough) and 108 when raging
Twoswords 11-30-04, 11:50 AM	Ok, its not the randomness of the rolls I have anything against, its the current inability to change that roll later on. So rolling a 2 out of a 10 is perfectly fine, but I want to find a way for the player to gain those 8 points that he/she potentially also could have rolled. In effect, the player would put some work in toughening up, thereby gaining those 8 hit points for that level, but for a cost of XP and time. (and I am not after raising CON either..its actually just thoise HP.. :)
starfire311 11-30-04, 12:43 PM	here is an idea for buying my HP up to the characters maximum. How about XP cost = 50 times level per HP bought so for a 3rd level character it would be 150xp per HP Seems ok to me but as always YMMV. FYI I wouldn't allow this in my game.
Twoswords 11-30-04, 12:57 PM	Hmm, that sounds like a pretty good version of it. Normally the HP thing isnt much to care about, but this time around we are doing a pretty specialized campaign where rules like this would fit well in. :)
chrome_gnome 11-30-04, 01:09 PM	For ECL = 1 character races we know the formula for leveling up is 1000xp times the new level. For example a 2nd level character wanting to move to 3rd needs 3000xp more than he has at the start of level 2, or a total of 6000xp. This is a kind of "budget" we have to work with. The basic determination that we have to make is how much of this "budget" should be expended to pay for the missed HP? To me something like 25-50xp per level per hitpoint sounds about right. If our second level hero missed out on 3 hit points upon making second level and we use the 50xp rate he would need an extra 50 * 2 * 3 = 300xp. That is an extra 10% of xp he'll need to move from level 2 to 3 because he is going to "burn" 300xp on buying those points as soon as he earns them as a level 2 player. Now you may think 25 or 50 per level per hit point is steep but look at how powerful a handful of hitpoints become. At levels 2 and 3 those extra 3 hit points he bought could easily make the difference in winning a fight or dying. As a character levels up a lack of 5 or 6 hit points isn't going to break the bank but the cumlative effects of a few lost per level could. As for having a different system for the different hit dice I'm not 100% sure it would be a good idea. If I had to pick a method I'd probably use something like 50xp rate (d4), 40xp rate (d6), 30xp rate (d8), 20xp rate (d10) and 10xp rate for d12 hit dice. This would reflect the hit points of low hit dice classes as being a larger portion of the possible maximum. 1 hp to a wizard is a big deal (25% of max), 1 hp to a warrior is only (10%). The wizard's hit points are worth 2.5 times what the warriors are worth which is matched by the cost of 50xp per for the d4 HD and 20xp per for the d10 HD, a multiple of 2.5 times the xp. Its a idea, run with it as you will.
Aeromus 11-30-04, 01:49 PM	When my playerslevel up in a "powerful" campaign, I have them pick one of two methods. Half+1 (3,4,5,6,7) or roll once, and then keep it, or have myself (the DM) roll and they keep my roll better or worse.
Stuntman 11-30-04, 02:22 PM	Something I have always found a bit silly is that your HP depends on two things, CON and luck. And with the CON roll, you need luck as well. So is there anyone out there that have given some thought about this and come up with some formula for spending XP to max your HP? What exactly is the real issue here? Is it that you do not like the randomness factor? Is it that the hit points are too few? If you do not like the randomness with regard to hit points, you can simply use the point buy method and average hit point method together. This way, there is no luck in determining your Con and hp. Problem solved. If you find that the hit points are too few, then I would advise against changing anything and just bite the bullet on this. If you start upping hit points of everyone, you end up changing the dynamics of the game. You make damage dealing effects (like combat and damage spells) less effective and make save or die spells more effective. Any way of granting more hit points outside of the normal rules of the game may have detrimental effects. There are already in-game methods of increasing your hit points. The Toughness and Improved Toughness feats are one way. Yes, they do have the cost of a feat, but there should be a cost to everything. Get a magical item that improves your Con is another. Wish spells can also improve your Con. Just trading XP for hit points just doesn't seem right to me. It makes it too easy and cheap to get a hit points boost. The game is balanced as it is with regard to hp.
deadDMwalking 11-30-04, 02:52 PM	I actually like the suggestion chrome_gnome made. For my next campaign I was thinking of allowing all characters maximum hit points at each level and giving all monsters max hp also. We had previously used the rule allowing you to roll hit points and re-roll 1s. Of course, this favors the d4 hit dice far too much. Although, considering the importance of hit dice to the various classes, I would probably charge wizards more and fighters less, but not quite the way chrome_gnome suggests. First of all, I would also only let them buy a single hit die at a time. If they went from 2nd to 3rd level, and they chose to keep their roll (let's say it is 9), then at 3rd to 4th level (let's say they roll a 4) they could only buy 6 hit points (assuming they rolled a d10). I wouldn't let them purchase hit points they did not buy earlier. I would charge 25 x level x each hit point for d10 and d12 HD classes. I would charge 50 for d8, 75 for d6 and 100 for d4. Or I would make it all the same and just charge 50/level, but I think I prefer the variable cost.
jerrylee 11-30-04, 03:44 PM	In many of my campaigns (both those I have DMed and those I have played in) we have simply given maximum hitpoints for each hitdie. Honestly, it doesn't seem to imbalance things that much, if the still-high number of close calls is any indication. I would rather err on the side of making things a little too easy than much too frustrating. Most recently, we have tried rolling for HP, but reroll anything less than half. So on a d10, only results of 6-10 would be accepted. This seems to work at reintroducing the random element without ******* anybody off to too great an extent. edit: sorry, I'm used to posting on boards where references to urination are not something that readers need to be guarded against.
StevenO 11-30-04, 07:41 PM	If you want to allow spending XP to increase HP you should definitely take die size into account. I'd also only allow increasing HP on your last roll to keep book keeping down. My suggested formula is; XP/hp = (500xp x level) / HDmax. Feel free to change the 500xp. This make d10s=50 x lv., d4s=125 x lv. It should cost wizards more.