A Friendly DMing Tip [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Friendly DMing Tip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vaalingrade Ashland
11-20-03, 02:15 AM Yes I know, you players are muchkins
or they don't like some of your rules.
or they meta-game
or they don't play the way you'd like them to.

And you think a bunch of strangers on the digital plane know exactly what you have to do to fix things.

I'm not saying we don't. In fact, I know for a fact each any every thing each one of us on the DM boards says is infallable and admissable in a court of law.

But before you call in the calvary and ask us to validate that you were right and the player in question needs to be booted, set on fire and tossed into the Neverending Inferno (TM), I have a small suggestion:

Talk to your players

Not just laying down the law and running game. All throught the process.

Before you start the game, tell them your house rules and the style of the game. Ask them if they're fine with everything. If there's a disagreement, don't flip out on them, discuss and if necesary, compromise (yes, the mighty DM may need to compromise with the lowly player).

At the end of the game, ask them if they had fun and if they had any questions about any rulings made during game -- and if necessary, compromise again.

If a problem arises with a Player, talk to them directly, stating your concerns directly and up front and encourage them to do the same with you.

Yes, we, the Dms run the game. Its 'our' game, our story, in some cases, our world, our spells, our races, out monsters and mechanics. We did a hell of a lot of work and all the players do is roll some dice and assign some numbers. In some ways we loathe them, and in some, we envy them.

But in the end, it is only through mutual respect and understanding between player and DM that you can have a successful, smooth running game.

Most of the time, you really don't need use floating heads to tell you what to do, its already with you, with your group. We'll be here when you really need us, but sometimes it is best if the fledgling learns to use his own wings. :)

Now take the pebble from my hand and your training will be complete, grasshopper.
Mefhiston
11-20-03, 02:50 AM *Aplauding*

Funny how few who seems to do that, dont ya think?

Now take the pebble from my hand and your training will be complete, grasshopper.

*Pulls forth double barelled shotgun, sqeeses trigger. Pikking up pebble.*

"I said enough with the grashopper thing!"
CrippleMrOnion
11-20-03, 01:09 PM It's the best policy. Not to create a flame war here, but a lot of problems I read about on the forums could have been completely avoided or solved after the fact just by talking to the players. I'm slowly becoming a lurker because there are so few good threads to reply to...
PenderGrass
11-20-03, 02:49 PM I'm slowly becoming a lurker because there are so few good threads to reply to...

But don't onions have more than one or two layers?
MinusInnocence
11-20-03, 03:22 PM Agreed, Onion. Fixxxer and I were talking about it the other day - a lot of the time, we sign on and there is utter crap. Y'know, you see someone post about how bad their players are, or how they handed out too many powerful magic items. Then you scroll down HALFWAY THROUGH THE FIRST PAGE and find three more topics about the same exact thing.

Originally, the intent of the FAQ was to clear things like that up... but apparently because it's stickied, people don't feel the need to read it, ironically enough. It's sort of become a static addition to the boards and since no one posts on it for weeks at a time, no one looks at it... very funny, but also very frustrating.

There really isn't anything to be done, unfortunately, Vaal. It's come to my attention that most people are stupid, and it is their right as human beings to be such. I'm not sure about you, but I know I didn't have to pass an IQ test before my account for the WotC forums was activated. Unfortunate? Yes. Unavoidable? Absolutely.
The Hanged Man
11-20-03, 06:55 PM Or to summarize - People are a Problem.
PenderGrass
11-20-03, 09:55 PM Or to summarize - People are a Problem.

This is why I have bought Stock in Soylent, Inc.
Bubba
11-20-03, 11:16 PM This must be where the cool kids hang out. Can I play? I've got ... stuff ... and things ...
Aucturos
11-21-03, 12:44 AM Great idea Vaal. I say we smite the ingrates who whine to us about their player problems and don't have responses when we ask, "What did your players say about this?"

Huzzah!

Edit-Punctuation.
OGRE-MJC
11-21-03, 11:46 AM Amen, Vaal.

But, if people started to get logical and acually start talking to their players/DMs, what would we post about on this board?
kennedybm00
11-21-03, 12:22 PM I think a lot of the problems that arise between DMs and players has to do with arrogance. Not to toot our own horns here but of all the hobbyists I know (card collectors, train builders, wood carvers) gamers are the most intelligent and most dedicated, and of gamers DMs naturally tend to be more creative and dedicated than their plyaers. That is why our players pick us to DM for them and that is why we spend countless hours coming up with adventure ideas and dungeons. I would also go so far as to say that the DMs who use these boards are even more dedicated since they are spending even more of their precious hours trying to perfect their art.

It is a real slap in the face when our players do not show the creativity and dedication that we so willingly give of ourselves even if they have justification for their actions. When people make nasty posts about their players I do not think that they want advice as much as they just want sympathy. I am guilty of this myself sometimes. When I cruise the posts I usually either start threads that are fun and humorous, or reply to the pleas for help unless the problem has already been nailed to a tee (usually by Fixxer).

Often though I see cries for help go unanswered or I see the more experienced DMs look down their cyber noses at the poster. This kind of arrogance does not get anyone anywhere. If you encounter a fledgeling DM who is frustrated then I think it is your duty to remember that he is just a beginner and try to help him with his problem or at least ignore him if his frustration frustrates you.
kennedybm00
11-21-03, 12:24 PM BTW I usually post as Utumno but I am on a different computer right now. Sorry for the double post!
green_yawgmoth
11-21-03, 12:49 PM Originally posted by PenderGrass
This is why I have bought Stock in Soylent, Inc. soylent green: now with more girls!

I agree with everthing VA said. Quit being passive-aggressive and talk/fight it out with your players.
Sephraem
11-21-03, 01:02 PM Originally posted by kennedybm00
When people make nasty posts about their players I do not think that they want advice as much as they just want sympathy. I am guilty of this myself sometimes. I know I have been. :embarrass

Sometimes it's just important to be heard and feel like you're not the only one to have ever gone through whatever it is you're going through. And sometimes you just need to hear whatever it is you already know, but don't really want to have to do yet.

Vaalingrade Ashland was observed to comment
Yes, we, the Dms run the game. Its 'our' game, our story, in some cases, our world, our spells, our races, out monsters and mechanics. We did a hell of a lot of work and all the players do is roll some dice and assign some numbers. In some ways we loathe them, and in some, we envy them. Actually, I love my players. Even when I want to smack them hard up-side the head for ignoring everything I prepped and having their characters run off to a different part of the country, it's with love in my heart.

Truly.
CrippleMrOnion
11-21-03, 05:01 PM It's 20/20 at any rate. I wanted to come back onto this post and agree and support Kennedy's ideas and opinions about helping out fledgling DMs so that they can grow and become interesting, productive members of the posts. Also, coincidentally, here we are posting about other DMs who post about their players. I suppose we all need to vent at some point.
Vaalingrade Ashland
11-21-03, 05:11 PM Originally posted by Sephraem

Actually, I love my players. Even when I want to smack them hard up-side the head for ignoring everything I prepped and having their characters run off to a different part of the country, it's with love in my heart.

When I said 'we' I didn't mean 'me' :smirk: . Personally, I always keep in mine why I'm doing this. Its not to show off my l337ness, not for the free Code Red and pizza, and certainly not for the pay (the afformentiond Code Red ;) ). I do this for them. Because they're my friends and I want to see them having a good time because of me.

I mean yeah, I've sweatdropped and hit my jaw on the floor as PCs wandered off the beaten path and threw my curve ball after curve ball (the 'You Want to do What?!' syndrome) But thats my challenge, just as much as convincing a GW green dragon to loan them thousands of gps is theirs.
Shatteredtower
11-22-03, 06:37 PM Originally posted by MinusInnocence
It's come to my attention that most people are stupid, and it is their right as human beings to be such. I'm not sure about you, but I know I didn't have to pass an IQ test before my account for the WotC forums was activated. Unfortunate? Yes. Unavoidable? Absolutely.

You are in error. Stupidity is universal, and greater intelligence simply means greater capacity for demonstrating stupider on a more spectacular level. An IQ test requirement to get in here wouldn't reduce the stupidity; it would merely allow stupidity to bulwark itself with an Impressive Title.
MinusInnocence
11-22-03, 07:11 PM Demonstrating stupider, huh?

Well, my post was made half in jest. I know as well as anyone that standardized test results do not a genius make - I also know that any community would fall apart without every component it possesses. This means that foolish people who do foolish things are a crucial element of our infrastructure.

It's called Ignorance Displacement. If Vaal suddenly waved a magic wand and, poof, all of the people who complain about munchkins or otherwise-inadequate players vanished... one of us would, inevitably, start taking their place. This is because without anyone left to impress and astound with our good advice, those of us who aren't actually reliably intelligent people will try to fill the roles we were meant for anyway.

To tell you the truth, I don't really have a problem with people who have made mistakes as DMs, or don't know how to resolve a particular gaming situation. However... the bane of my existence are those among the posters who ROUTINELY post without any regard for whether their exact same question has already been answered three times before in that same day.

My beef is with people who not only refuse to use the 'Search' function, they also don't care if they are posting in the wrong forums. I suspect this is due, at least in part, to the belief that anyone wise enough to resolve their crisis will also be gracious enough to point them in the right direction.

Anyway, I'm just desperately trying to theorize on something that really doesn't make any sense to me. I think a lot of other people are equally confounded by the behavior we're bashing right now... trying to come up with explanations, if not excuses, for said behavior is our way of coping.
Bubba
11-22-03, 08:15 PM Kennedy/Utumno is my new hero. In fact, it's going to be my New Year's resolution to not flame, not troll and try to be more sensitive to the needs of not only posters on these boards, but all players (maybe people?) in general.

But until New Years, hold onto your hats.
DrMorganes
11-23-03, 02:09 AM Or to summarize - People are a Problem.

*snickers*

Though it's "people are are the problem".

wraps his towel about his head and thumbs a ride with the next passing Vogon constructor ship
april151978
11-23-03, 02:34 AM Well said Vaalingrade Ashland... I have done this, and continue to do this in all my DM and GM possitions in the games I am in... I have always looked to the players for feedback, and I have always been upfront with the things I have done as houserules and optional rules (DMG) I will include, but have left the continuation of these things up to the players as a vote... The only thing thus far I have changed is the optional rule about AC being more random (loose the automatic +10, roll a d20) after a few games, and I am ok with that... It was an experiment on my part, so the loss was no big deal...

I too wish more would do this, but it seems few DMs out there want to do this... I don't know if they are scared or don't know how to talk to thier players, but with the work most DMs go through to make thier games fun, I can't see why they wouldn't go through it all... After all, it is to most DMs a pet project of sorts, so I would think they would treat it as such...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-20-03, 02:15 AM	Yes I know, you players are muchkins or they don't like some of your rules. or they meta-game or they don't play the way you'd like them to. And you think a bunch of strangers on the digital plane know exactly what you have to do to fix things. I'm not saying we don't. In fact, I know for a fact each any every thing each one of us on the DM boards says is infallable and admissable in a court of law. But before you call in the calvary and ask us to validate that you were right and the player in question needs to be booted, set on fire and tossed into the Neverending Inferno (TM), I have a small suggestion: Talk to your players Not just laying down the law and running game. All throught the process. Before you start the game, tell them your house rules and the style of the game. Ask them if they're fine with everything. If there's a disagreement, don't flip out on them, discuss and if necesary, compromise (yes, the mighty DM may need to compromise with the lowly player). At the end of the game, ask them if they had fun and if they had any questions about any rulings made during game -- and if necessary, compromise again. If a problem arises with a Player, talk to them directly, stating your concerns directly and up front and encourage them to do the same with you. Yes, we, the Dms run the game. Its 'our' game, our story, in some cases, our world, our spells, our races, out monsters and mechanics. We did a hell of a lot of work and all the players do is roll some dice and assign some numbers. In some ways we loathe them, and in some, we envy them. But in the end, it is only through mutual respect and understanding between player and DM that you can have a successful, smooth running game. Most of the time, you really don't need use floating heads to tell you what to do, its already with you, with your group. We'll be here when you really need us, but sometimes it is best if the fledgling learns to use his own wings. :) Now take the pebble from my hand and your training will be complete, grasshopper.
Mefhiston 11-20-03, 02:50 AM	Aplauding Funny how few who seems to do that, dont ya think? Now take the pebble from my hand and your training will be complete, grasshopper. Pulls forth double barelled shotgun, sqeeses trigger. Pikking up pebble. "I said enough with the grashopper thing!"
CrippleMrOnion 11-20-03, 01:09 PM	It's the best policy. Not to create a flame war here, but a lot of problems I read about on the forums could have been completely avoided or solved after the fact just by talking to the players. I'm slowly becoming a lurker because there are so few good threads to reply to...
PenderGrass 11-20-03, 02:49 PM	I'm slowly becoming a lurker because there are so few good threads to reply to... But don't onions have more than one or two layers?
MinusInnocence 11-20-03, 03:22 PM	Agreed, Onion. Fixxxer and I were talking about it the other day - a lot of the time, we sign on and there is utter crap. Y'know, you see someone post about how bad their players are, or how they handed out too many powerful magic items. Then you scroll down HALFWAY THROUGH THE FIRST PAGE and find three more topics about the same exact thing. Originally, the intent of the FAQ was to clear things like that up... but apparently because it's stickied, people don't feel the need to read it, ironically enough. It's sort of become a static addition to the boards and since no one posts on it for weeks at a time, no one looks at it... very funny, but also very frustrating. There really isn't anything to be done, unfortunately, Vaal. It's come to my attention that most people are stupid, and it is their right as human beings to be such. I'm not sure about you, but I know I didn't have to pass an IQ test before my account for the WotC forums was activated. Unfortunate? Yes. Unavoidable? Absolutely.
The Hanged Man 11-20-03, 06:55 PM	Or to summarize - People are a Problem.
PenderGrass 11-20-03, 09:55 PM	Or to summarize - People are a Problem. This is why I have bought Stock in Soylent, Inc.
Bubba 11-20-03, 11:16 PM	This must be where the cool kids hang out. Can I play? I've got ... stuff ... and things ...
Aucturos 11-21-03, 12:44 AM	Great idea Vaal. I say we smite the ingrates who whine to us about their player problems and don't have responses when we ask, "What did your players say about this?" Huzzah! Edit-Punctuation.
OGRE-MJC 11-21-03, 11:46 AM	Amen, Vaal. But, if people started to get logical and acually start talking to their players/DMs, what would we post about on this board?
kennedybm00 11-21-03, 12:22 PM	I think a lot of the problems that arise between DMs and players has to do with arrogance. Not to toot our own horns here but of all the hobbyists I know (card collectors, train builders, wood carvers) gamers are the most intelligent and most dedicated, and of gamers DMs naturally tend to be more creative and dedicated than their plyaers. That is why our players pick us to DM for them and that is why we spend countless hours coming up with adventure ideas and dungeons. I would also go so far as to say that the DMs who use these boards are even more dedicated since they are spending even more of their precious hours trying to perfect their art. It is a real slap in the face when our players do not show the creativity and dedication that we so willingly give of ourselves even if they have justification for their actions. When people make nasty posts about their players I do not think that they want advice as much as they just want sympathy. I am guilty of this myself sometimes. When I cruise the posts I usually either start threads that are fun and humorous, or reply to the pleas for help unless the problem has already been nailed to a tee (usually by Fixxer). Often though I see cries for help go unanswered or I see the more experienced DMs look down their cyber noses at the poster. This kind of arrogance does not get anyone anywhere. If you encounter a fledgeling DM who is frustrated then I think it is your duty to remember that he is just a beginner and try to help him with his problem or at least ignore him if his frustration frustrates you.
kennedybm00 11-21-03, 12:24 PM	BTW I usually post as Utumno but I am on a different computer right now. Sorry for the double post!
green_yawgmoth 11-21-03, 12:49 PM	Originally posted by PenderGrass This is why I have bought Stock in Soylent, Inc. soylent green: now with more girls! I agree with everthing VA said. Quit being passive-aggressive and talk/fight it out with your players.
Sephraem 11-21-03, 01:02 PM	Originally posted by kennedybm00 When people make nasty posts about their players I do not think that they want advice as much as they just want sympathy. I am guilty of this myself sometimes. I know I have been. :embarrass Sometimes it's just important to be heard and feel like you're not the only one to have ever gone through whatever it is you're going through. And sometimes you just need to hear whatever it is you already know, but don't really want to have to do yet. Vaalingrade Ashland was observed to comment Yes, we, the Dms run the game. Its 'our' game, our story, in some cases, our world, our spells, our races, out monsters and mechanics. We did a hell of a lot of work and all the players do is roll some dice and assign some numbers. In some ways we loathe them, and in some, we envy them. Actually, I love my players. Even when I want to smack them hard up-side the head for ignoring everything I prepped and having their characters run off to a different part of the country, it's with love in my heart. Truly.
CrippleMrOnion 11-21-03, 05:01 PM	It's 20/20 at any rate. I wanted to come back onto this post and agree and support Kennedy's ideas and opinions about helping out fledgling DMs so that they can grow and become interesting, productive members of the posts. Also, coincidentally, here we are posting about other DMs who post about their players. I suppose we all need to vent at some point.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-21-03, 05:11 PM	Originally posted by Sephraem Actually, I love my players. Even when I want to smack them hard up-side the head for ignoring everything I prepped and having their characters run off to a different part of the country, it's with love in my heart. When I said 'we' I didn't mean 'me' :smirk: . Personally, I always keep in mine why I'm doing this. Its not to show off my l337ness, not for the free Code Red and pizza, and certainly not for the pay (the afformentiond Code Red ;) ). I do this for them. Because they're my friends and I want to see them having a good time because of me. I mean yeah, I've sweatdropped and hit my jaw on the floor as PCs wandered off the beaten path and threw my curve ball after curve ball (the 'You Want to do What?!' syndrome) But thats my challenge, just as much as convincing a GW green dragon to loan them thousands of gps is theirs.
Shatteredtower 11-22-03, 06:37 PM	Originally posted by MinusInnocence It's come to my attention that most people are stupid, and it is their right as human beings to be such. I'm not sure about you, but I know I didn't have to pass an IQ test before my account for the WotC forums was activated. Unfortunate? Yes. Unavoidable? Absolutely. You are in error. Stupidity is universal, and greater intelligence simply means greater capacity for demonstrating stupider on a more spectacular level. An IQ test requirement to get in here wouldn't reduce the stupidity; it would merely allow stupidity to bulwark itself with an Impressive Title.
MinusInnocence 11-22-03, 07:11 PM	Demonstrating stupider, huh? Well, my post was made half in jest. I know as well as anyone that standardized test results do not a genius make - I also know that any community would fall apart without every component it possesses. This means that foolish people who do foolish things are a crucial element of our infrastructure. It's called Ignorance Displacement. If Vaal suddenly waved a magic wand and, poof, all of the people who complain about munchkins or otherwise-inadequate players vanished... one of us would, inevitably, start taking their place. This is because without anyone left to impress and astound with our good advice, those of us who aren't actually reliably intelligent people will try to fill the roles we were meant for anyway. To tell you the truth, I don't really have a problem with people who have made mistakes as DMs, or don't know how to resolve a particular gaming situation. However... the bane of my existence are those among the posters who ROUTINELY post without any regard for whether their exact same question has already been answered three times before in that same day. My beef is with people who not only refuse to use the 'Search' function, they also don't care if they are posting in the wrong forums. I suspect this is due, at least in part, to the belief that anyone wise enough to resolve their crisis will also be gracious enough to point them in the right direction. Anyway, I'm just desperately trying to theorize on something that really doesn't make any sense to me. I think a lot of other people are equally confounded by the behavior we're bashing right now... trying to come up with explanations, if not excuses, for said behavior is our way of coping.
Bubba 11-22-03, 08:15 PM	Kennedy/Utumno is my new hero. In fact, it's going to be my New Year's resolution to not flame, not troll and try to be more sensitive to the needs of not only posters on these boards, but all players (maybe people?) in general. But until New Years, hold onto your hats.
DrMorganes 11-23-03, 02:09 AM	Or to summarize - People are a Problem. snickers Though it's "people are are the problem". wraps his towel about his head and thumbs a ride with the next passing Vogon constructor ship
april151978 11-23-03, 02:34 AM	Well said Vaalingrade Ashland... I have done this, and continue to do this in all my DM and GM possitions in the games I am in... I have always looked to the players for feedback, and I have always been upfront with the things I have done as houserules and optional rules (DMG) I will include, but have left the continuation of these things up to the players as a vote... The only thing thus far I have changed is the optional rule about AC being more random (loose the automatic +10, roll a d20) after a few games, and I am ok with that... It was an experiment on my part, so the loss was no big deal... I too wish more would do this, but it seems few DMs out there want to do this... I don't know if they are scared or don't know how to talk to thier players, but with the work most DMs go through to make thier games fun, I can't see why they wouldn't go through it all... After all, it is to most DMs a pet project of sorts, so I would think they would treat it as such...