A game I can control--prestige classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

A game I can control--prestige classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
thecasualoblivion
08-21-07, 10:18 AM Me and my gaming group were talking with a guy who had a friend at GenCon and had all the latest info about 4th edition the other night. My big topic was the cleanliness and controllability of the game. I find the 3.5E game very difficult to control if you go beyond the core rules, and the game can very easily descend into a complete mess. I handle this better than the other DMs in our group, but it still annoys me and I don't like that I have to balance the game using a heavy hand.

So I've decided to attempt to create the framework for a campaign I can control. Limiting the books, tweaking the system, implementing a point buy for the first time ever, ect. The thing I'm not familiar with at all is prestige class abuse. I never really cared for the concept as a player, and tend to end campaigns between levels 10-12 before things can get too crazy, so my experience with them is very limited. These are the books I will be using:

Core
Player's Handbook II
Complete Arcane
Complete Adventurer
Complete Divine
Complete Warrior
Expanded Psionics
Tome of Battle--I'm rewriting all the classes so that everybody who isn't a pure spellcaster is a full martial adept.
Spell Compendium

and a few books I'm dipping into:

Races of Destiny(Half-Ogre Race)
Fiendish Codex II(Hellfire Warlock and Hellbred Race)
Eberron--(Warforged race, though with a different flavor)

My question is between the DMG, Complete books, Expanded Psionics, and Tome of Battle are there any prestige classes I need to worry about. As I said before, I'm very unfamiliar with them and am trying to build a game I can keep under control.
Kalai_Eljahn
08-21-07, 10:29 AM Well, the wonderful thing about prestige classes is the need for players to actively pursue them; you can drop hints about how to get to certain PrC's, but really have control over how much they are exposed to. Anyone who wants to be a Green Star Adept especially is going to have to quest a whole lot. My reccomendation is to start at low levels and make the players work for their PrC's. It makes them, really, another kind of treasure.
thecasualoblivion
08-21-07, 10:39 AM I was thinking more along the lines of--Are there any prestige classes in the books I described that threaten game balance/DM control.
Puca
08-21-07, 11:02 AM Complete Divine as a version or the Ur-Priest.
The Ur-Priest can cast 9th-level spells quite a bit sooner than a full caster should.

It is one of the very few PrCs I consider "broken." The thing is, opinions on what is broken vary wildly. And frankly, what fits in one campaign might not fit into yours. What imbalances one campaign might not affect yours.

What I would do were I in your position is require your players to give you notice about any PrCs they want to take. Prior to taking a prereq (as a prereq) and maybe at least 2 levels in advance. This gives you time to look at the PrC, evaluate it, and see how best to work it into your campaign if you are going to at all.
heffroncm
08-21-07, 12:48 PM Complete Divine as a version or the Ur-Priest.
The Ur-Priest can cast 9th-level spells quite a bit sooner than a full caster should.

It is one of the very few PrCs I consider "broken." The thing is, opinions on what is broken vary wildly. And frankly, what fits in one campaign might not fit into yours. What imbalances one campaign might not affect yours.

What I would do were I in your position is require your players to give you notice about any PrCs they want to take. Prior to taking a prereq (as a prereq) and maybe at least 2 levels in advance. This gives you time to look at the PrC, evaluate it, and see how best to work it into your campaign if you are going to at all.

In general, I find that no individual class is overpowering by itself (except Planar Shepherd, but that's a whole 'nother level of stupidity). The RP restrictions on the most powerful PRC's can be devastating. Take the afformentioned Ur-Priest. Sure, you can get 9th level spells by level 14. Note that the wizards and clerics have 7th levels spells at this point, and are only 3 levels away from 9th level spells. For this, you have to be Evil, and pretty much hated by every Divine power in the world. Anyone who calls on Divine power is going to be hostile if they learn your secret.

My advice is to allow any class combination the player wants within the rules. Work with them to make it fit the storyline, maybe changing the flavor of the class to fit your story. Your opinion on what is overpowered and the players' opinions will differ, and it causes a lot of friction to flat out refuse certain options. Control comes in the form of deciding what encounters they meet. If you get a party of mindless battle twinks, a trap and social intrigue filled mansion is going to hurt them bad. Too many or too powerful casters, start cutting into their rest time. There is a counter for everything in the game, don't be afraid to use them.
Mistress_Alexis
08-21-07, 01:05 PM Personally I have never been able to challenge a Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker Build without anything that didnt either kill them outright (Will Save or Die/Close Too Spell/Powers) or kill another party member (Stronger/More Creatures) so I would be carful of that.

Druids I outright Ban.

I've had some problems with Artificers just because they boost the Parties Wealth Level by alot.
heffroncm
08-21-07, 01:37 PM Personally I have never been able to challenge a Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker Build without anything that didnt either kill them outright (Will Save or Die/Close Too Spell/Powers) or kill another party member (Stronger/More Creatures) so I would be carful of that.

Druids I outright Ban.

I've had some problems with Artificers just because they boost the Parties Wealth Level by alot.

Frenzied Berserkers are easy. Get them into a grapple. Sure, they have good strength, but the Large and bigger grappling monsters out there don't take know for an answer. Even if the FB has a light weapon that's worth anything (doubtful), they get zero Power Attack damage and 1/2 Strength. Really takes them down a peg.

Druids can be tricky to deal with if one knows what they are doing. Takes a variety of situations. The ol' "10 goblins up a cliff with slings" approach can do nasty things to any primarily melee character, though, and the druid can only memorize so many blasty spells per day. Sure, they can wildshape to fly up there, then wildshape again to fight the goblins, but not more than once a day at medium levels.

Remember that, for the most part, the PC's are SUPPOSED to win. The game is built around the idea that the "average encounter" is fairly easy, expending about 20% of the parties daily resources. At 10th level, that's 4 or 5 spells per caster. Break out the real challenges for special circumstances, and then don't be afraid to make them really work for it.
Puca
08-21-07, 03:03 PM Take the afformentioned Ur-Priest. Sure, you can get 9th level spells by level 14. Note that the wizards and clerics have 7th levels spells at this point, and are only 3 levels away from 9th level spells. For this, you have to be Evil, and pretty much hated by every Divine power in the world. Anyone who calls on Divine power is going to be hostile if they learn your secret.I think being able to cast level 9 spells when every one around you tops out 7th is a pretty big deal. The fact that disallowing them for that reason also prevents a character who doesnt play well with others is just a bonus.

But I totally acknowledge that that is just my opinion. It might not be a problem in other campaigns. That why, while it is good to point out to the OP problems weve had with Ur-Priests/Frenzied Berserkers/Planer Shephards in the past so he wont be surprised, he should look at each individual character on a case-by-case basis to see how they fit into his unique campaign.
Werebat
08-22-07, 07:54 PM Ban Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Radiant Servant of Pelor (also known as "Cleric Plus").

- Ron ^*^
Ryzak
08-22-07, 08:02 PM I've always had a problem with the warlock. The fact that it is so incredibly popular with players should give a warning to that fact. If I were to allow it, I would make the rule that they belong to a demon/devil, whatever. That would make for some interesting role-playing.

Radiant Servant is pretty bad. It's healing capabilities are just ridiculous.

I agree that PrC's should require the PC's tracking down someone that can "train" them.

Since you are using the PHBII, I'd put a lot of limitations on the retraining chapter, or just ban it outright. It's just way too easy for PC's to retrain feats and skills.
Incendius
08-23-07, 09:35 AM I've always had a problem with the warlock. The fact that it is so incredibly popular with players should give a warning to that fact. If I were to allow it, I would make the rule that they belong to a demon/devil, whatever. That would make for some interesting role-playing.

Radiant Servant is pretty bad. It's healing capabilities are just ridiculous.

I agree that PrC's should require the PC's tracking down someone that can "train" them.

Since you are using the PHBII, I'd put a lot of limitations on the retraining chapter, or just ban it outright. It's just way too easy for PC's to retrain feats and skills.

The only reason that warlock is popular with players is because its well balanced, and well FUN. You should try running the numbers sometimes, a warlock falls out in almost everything compared to real casters unless your running 5+ encounters per day, which if you are, thats the entire point of the class to shine!

Radiant Servant is really not that bad, if your cleric is devoting himself to healing, let him take it! I'd rather have a Radiant Servant in my group then half the other mixtures of PRCs.

Just remember to enforce roleplaying requirements, and you should be fine.

I second the thought that Frenzied Berserkers are problems; its not so much the damage they do as the whole "I don't work well with a team" aspect.
Vaalingrade Ashland
08-23-07, 09:41 AM FB's simply will ruin your game. Its thier primary class feature. No matter what percautions or cute tricks you come up with, they will eventually fail then pass a save and that's the end of the party. They pretty much exist as a reason to get away with PKing and should be looked upon with scorn.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-23-07, 10:03 AM FB's simply will ruin your game. Its thier primary class feature. No matter what percautions or cute tricks you come up with, they will eventually fail then pass a save and that's the end of the party. They pretty much exist as a reason to get away with PKing and should be looked upon with scorn.
This isn't quite true, but it's close. If a frenzied berserker hopeful can't consistently keep a +18 or better Will save bonus ready to go, or better yet use a skill check in place of a saving throw with a consistent +19 or better bonus on the check, before he ever takes his first frenzied berserker level, he probably shouldn't be allowed into the class. The risk is pretty high.
Count_Platypus
08-23-07, 02:34 PM As far as flat out banning PrC, I've always found it to be a bad idea. It antagonizes the PCs who want to take that class, which just makes life difficult for everyone. if you are legitamately worried about a certain class granting too much power, you can always simply raise the req for that class. And remember, having a perfectly balenced party is not necesarily the best thing either.diversity is a good thing.
Ecalsneerg
08-23-07, 03:02 PM Druids I outright Ban.

Why? Simply banning Natural Spell gives people good reason NOT to walk around being a bear all day.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thecasualoblivion 08-21-07, 10:18 AM	Me and my gaming group were talking with a guy who had a friend at GenCon and had all the latest info about 4th edition the other night. My big topic was the cleanliness and controllability of the game. I find the 3.5E game very difficult to control if you go beyond the core rules, and the game can very easily descend into a complete mess. I handle this better than the other DMs in our group, but it still annoys me and I don't like that I have to balance the game using a heavy hand. So I've decided to attempt to create the framework for a campaign I can control. Limiting the books, tweaking the system, implementing a point buy for the first time ever, ect. The thing I'm not familiar with at all is prestige class abuse. I never really cared for the concept as a player, and tend to end campaigns between levels 10-12 before things can get too crazy, so my experience with them is very limited. These are the books I will be using: Core Player's Handbook II Complete Arcane Complete Adventurer Complete Divine Complete Warrior Expanded Psionics Tome of Battle--I'm rewriting all the classes so that everybody who isn't a pure spellcaster is a full martial adept. Spell Compendium and a few books I'm dipping into: Races of Destiny(Half-Ogre Race) Fiendish Codex II(Hellfire Warlock and Hellbred Race) Eberron--(Warforged race, though with a different flavor) My question is between the DMG, Complete books, Expanded Psionics, and Tome of Battle are there any prestige classes I need to worry about. As I said before, I'm very unfamiliar with them and am trying to build a game I can keep under control.
Kalai_Eljahn 08-21-07, 10:29 AM	Well, the wonderful thing about prestige classes is the need for players to actively pursue them; you can drop hints about how to get to certain PrC's, but really have control over how much they are exposed to. Anyone who wants to be a Green Star Adept especially is going to have to quest a whole lot. My reccomendation is to start at low levels and make the players work for their PrC's. It makes them, really, another kind of treasure.
thecasualoblivion 08-21-07, 10:39 AM	I was thinking more along the lines of--Are there any prestige classes in the books I described that threaten game balance/DM control.
Puca 08-21-07, 11:02 AM	Complete Divine as a version or the Ur-Priest. The Ur-Priest can cast 9th-level spells quite a bit sooner than a full caster should. It is one of the very few PrCs I consider "broken." The thing is, opinions on what is broken vary wildly. And frankly, what fits in one campaign might not fit into yours. What imbalances one campaign might not affect yours. What I would do were I in your position is require your players to give you notice about any PrCs they want to take. Prior to taking a prereq (as a prereq) and maybe at least 2 levels in advance. This gives you time to look at the PrC, evaluate it, and see how best to work it into your campaign if you are going to at all.
heffroncm 08-21-07, 12:48 PM	Complete Divine as a version or the Ur-Priest. The Ur-Priest can cast 9th-level spells quite a bit sooner than a full caster should. It is one of the very few PrCs I consider "broken." The thing is, opinions on what is broken vary wildly. And frankly, what fits in one campaign might not fit into yours. What imbalances one campaign might not affect yours. What I would do were I in your position is require your players to give you notice about any PrCs they want to take. Prior to taking a prereq (as a prereq) and maybe at least 2 levels in advance. This gives you time to look at the PrC, evaluate it, and see how best to work it into your campaign if you are going to at all. In general, I find that no individual class is overpowering by itself (except Planar Shepherd, but that's a whole 'nother level of stupidity). The RP restrictions on the most powerful PRC's can be devastating. Take the afformentioned Ur-Priest. Sure, you can get 9th level spells by level 14. Note that the wizards and clerics have 7th levels spells at this point, and are only 3 levels away from 9th level spells. For this, you have to be Evil, and pretty much hated by every Divine power in the world. Anyone who calls on Divine power is going to be hostile if they learn your secret. My advice is to allow any class combination the player wants within the rules. Work with them to make it fit the storyline, maybe changing the flavor of the class to fit your story. Your opinion on what is overpowered and the players' opinions will differ, and it causes a lot of friction to flat out refuse certain options. Control comes in the form of deciding what encounters they meet. If you get a party of mindless battle twinks, a trap and social intrigue filled mansion is going to hurt them bad. Too many or too powerful casters, start cutting into their rest time. There is a counter for everything in the game, don't be afraid to use them.
Mistress_Alexis 08-21-07, 01:05 PM	Personally I have never been able to challenge a Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker Build without anything that didnt either kill them outright (Will Save or Die/Close Too Spell/Powers) or kill another party member (Stronger/More Creatures) so I would be carful of that. Druids I outright Ban. I've had some problems with Artificers just because they boost the Parties Wealth Level by alot.
heffroncm 08-21-07, 01:37 PM	Personally I have never been able to challenge a Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker Build without anything that didnt either kill them outright (Will Save or Die/Close Too Spell/Powers) or kill another party member (Stronger/More Creatures) so I would be carful of that. Druids I outright Ban. I've had some problems with Artificers just because they boost the Parties Wealth Level by alot. Frenzied Berserkers are easy. Get them into a grapple. Sure, they have good strength, but the Large and bigger grappling monsters out there don't take know for an answer. Even if the FB has a light weapon that's worth anything (doubtful), they get zero Power Attack damage and 1/2 Strength. Really takes them down a peg. Druids can be tricky to deal with if one knows what they are doing. Takes a variety of situations. The ol' "10 goblins up a cliff with slings" approach can do nasty things to any primarily melee character, though, and the druid can only memorize so many blasty spells per day. Sure, they can wildshape to fly up there, then wildshape again to fight the goblins, but not more than once a day at medium levels. Remember that, for the most part, the PC's are SUPPOSED to win. The game is built around the idea that the "average encounter" is fairly easy, expending about 20% of the parties daily resources. At 10th level, that's 4 or 5 spells per caster. Break out the real challenges for special circumstances, and then don't be afraid to make them really work for it.
Puca 08-21-07, 03:03 PM	Take the afformentioned Ur-Priest. Sure, you can get 9th level spells by level 14. Note that the wizards and clerics have 7th levels spells at this point, and are only 3 levels away from 9th level spells. For this, you have to be Evil, and pretty much hated by every Divine power in the world. Anyone who calls on Divine power is going to be hostile if they learn your secret.I think being able to cast level 9 spells when every one around you tops out 7th is a pretty big deal. The fact that disallowing them for that reason also prevents a character who doesnt play well with others is just a bonus. But I totally acknowledge that that is just my opinion. It might not be a problem in other campaigns. That why, while it is good to point out to the OP problems weve had with Ur-Priests/Frenzied Berserkers/Planer Shephards in the past so he wont be surprised, he should look at each individual character on a case-by-case basis to see how they fit into his unique campaign.
Werebat 08-22-07, 07:54 PM	Ban Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Radiant Servant of Pelor (also known as "Cleric Plus"). - Ron ^*^
Ryzak 08-22-07, 08:02 PM	I've always had a problem with the warlock. The fact that it is so incredibly popular with players should give a warning to that fact. If I were to allow it, I would make the rule that they belong to a demon/devil, whatever. That would make for some interesting role-playing. Radiant Servant is pretty bad. It's healing capabilities are just ridiculous. I agree that PrC's should require the PC's tracking down someone that can "train" them. Since you are using the PHBII, I'd put a lot of limitations on the retraining chapter, or just ban it outright. It's just way too easy for PC's to retrain feats and skills.
Incendius 08-23-07, 09:35 AM	I've always had a problem with the warlock. The fact that it is so incredibly popular with players should give a warning to that fact. If I were to allow it, I would make the rule that they belong to a demon/devil, whatever. That would make for some interesting role-playing. Radiant Servant is pretty bad. It's healing capabilities are just ridiculous. I agree that PrC's should require the PC's tracking down someone that can "train" them. Since you are using the PHBII, I'd put a lot of limitations on the retraining chapter, or just ban it outright. It's just way too easy for PC's to retrain feats and skills. The only reason that warlock is popular with players is because its well balanced, and well FUN. You should try running the numbers sometimes, a warlock falls out in almost everything compared to real casters unless your running 5+ encounters per day, which if you are, thats the entire point of the class to shine! Radiant Servant is really not that bad, if your cleric is devoting himself to healing, let him take it! I'd rather have a Radiant Servant in my group then half the other mixtures of PRCs. Just remember to enforce roleplaying requirements, and you should be fine. I second the thought that Frenzied Berserkers are problems; its not so much the damage they do as the whole "I don't work well with a team" aspect.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-23-07, 09:41 AM	FB's simply will ruin your game. Its thier primary class feature. No matter what percautions or cute tricks you come up with, they will eventually fail then pass a save and that's the end of the party. They pretty much exist as a reason to get away with PKing and should be looked upon with scorn.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-23-07, 10:03 AM	FB's simply will ruin your game. Its thier primary class feature. No matter what percautions or cute tricks you come up with, they will eventually fail then pass a save and that's the end of the party. They pretty much exist as a reason to get away with PKing and should be looked upon with scorn. This isn't quite true, but it's close. If a frenzied berserker hopeful can't consistently keep a +18 or better Will save bonus ready to go, or better yet use a skill check in place of a saving throw with a consistent +19 or better bonus on the check, before he ever takes his first frenzied berserker level, he probably shouldn't be allowed into the class. The risk is pretty high.
Count_Platypus 08-23-07, 02:34 PM	As far as flat out banning PrC, I've always found it to be a bad idea. It antagonizes the PCs who want to take that class, which just makes life difficult for everyone. if you are legitamately worried about a certain class granting too much power, you can always simply raise the req for that class. And remember, having a perfectly balenced party is not necesarily the best thing either.diversity is a good thing.
Ecalsneerg 08-23-07, 03:02 PM	Druids I outright Ban. Why? Simply banning Natural Spell gives people good reason NOT to walk around being a bear all day.