Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Snake_Oil 09-05-06, 09:44 AM	Okay so I ran my very first session of D&D last night, and I think is was rather successful. :) Some of you more experianced DMs might read this and think it was boreing or bland, but for us Newbies, it was a blast. :D For those of you who may have missed my last thread a few days ago, I am running a game for two friends right now. We're all new to D&D, but very interested in fantasy. My players chose to play a Halfling Ranger named Eldrin Farwalker who specializes in hunting vermin (Specifically giant insects) witha sling and short sword, and a dwarven cleric of Ariax (dwarven god of war) named Grimm Thunderforge who uses a warhammer and carries a large steel shield. His domains are Earth and Strength. My game is set in my own world, and the characters are mercenaries. Their backstory is that Eldrin's tribe found Grimm half starved to death in the wilderness and nursed him back to health. Grimm was on a ritual quest for manhood that all members of his clan must go through. The two of them became fast friends and later, when giant ants killed most of Eldrin's tribe, the two of them set off on their own as mercenaries to seek fortune and fame. The game began as the two of them arrived in the sleepy town of Milborne, which lies along the Lyre River, right next to the Axewood forest. The first thing they did apon entering town, was to wander the streets and become familiar with the layout. (something I didn't expect but applauded) They made themselves a little map, showing where the Silver Crown was ( a local inn), the Baron of Mutton (the local tavern), the blacksmith, the local temple, and the stables/kennels, along with where the mayors mansion was. After they became familiar with the town in general, they made a stop at the Baron of Mutton and met Garon, the barkeep. When they mentioned they were mercenaries, Garon told them that they had come to the right town. Jobs were always avaliable in Milborne, and that they should come to him when they were seeking employment, because he handled all the bounties. Garon then set them up with their first mission. A group of goblins have been killing sheep and cattle in the surrounding farm land, and the mayor has put a bounty of 5 gold peices on their heads (meaning for each head they bring back, they get 5gp apeice), the mayor plans to mount the heads on pikes on the edges of the farmland as a warning to other goblin tribes in the area. Eldrin and Grimm accepted the job and set out at once for the cave where the gblins lived, following a map given to them by Garon. They found the entrance to the cave by mid-day, little more than a crack in the side of a hill, barely big enought o allow Grimm entrance. They squeezed through and in the first chamber they discovered that very little light got through the crack. Eldrin lit his lantern, and they looked around at the nearly empty cave. A few scraps of fur and bone, but no sign of goblins. As they moved to the back of the cave, the light hit the back wall rvealing another opening leading deeper into the earth. following it, the two mercenaries found themselves in the goblins common room, and face to face with three goblins armed with clubs. Witha voice like thunder (seriously my friend is loud) Grimm called down the blessings of Ariax (Bless spell) and the two heros charged into the fray. The goblins fought like wild animals, and both Eldrin and Grimm took some heavy hits before they managed to drop their foes. when the battle was finished, the victorious heros searched the room for valuables, digging through piles of furs and filth. They turned up a few silver coins and a small topaz but nothing too special. Grimm cast a cure spell on Eldrin (who was down to his last hit point), then Eldrin cut the slain goblins heads off, though they decided to leave them there until they were done clearing the caves. They found two exits from the room, one to the east, and one to the south. They chose the south exit and found themselves in a decodent (by goblin standards) chamber. Bones and furs made a small alter against one wall, and the cave walls were covered in goblin script praiseing their god. From a small alcove, two goblin adepts attacked, throwing javalines at the two intruders. They were dispatched easily, and their heads were added to the pile in the other room. Grimm destroied the goblin alter, and used his own blood to smudge and mar the script on the walls. He then searched the alcove and found two potions of Cure Light Wounds. Done with the shrine room, Eldrin and Grimm focused on the eastern exit from the common room. This exit was blocked by a crude wooden door, and locked by a simple lock. They found the key on one of the dead goblins and opened the door, revealing a small room beyond. Grimm marched forward, and promptly fell through the fake floor into a 20ft deep pit, takeing damage from the fall. It took a long time for Eldrin to stop lauging and lower a rope so Grimm could climb out. Then the two of them found the narrow one foot ledge that followed the wall around the edge of the pit and led to a closed wooden door across the room. The same key opened the second door, and the two heros found themselves in the goblin throne room. A throne made of sheep and cattle bones sat on a large flat rock, and countless cow hides covered the floors and walls. The room seemed empty at first, until the goblin chief, holding two short swords and wearing leather armor, jumped out of a pile of furs and got a surprise attack on eldrin, who was cut badly. Grimm went toe to toe with the goblin chief and scored a good hit only to see the damaged healed as two goblin adepts emerged from their own piles to heal their leader and jab at the heros with spears. This fight was extremely difficult, and Grimm used the last of his spells on cureing when it was over. Eldrin retrieved his sword from where he had planted it in the chiefs heart, and cut the ehads off all three goblins, adding them to the pile in the common room. They searched the throne room and found a small chest containing 50gp, and Eldrin discovered that one of the goblin chief's short swords was masterwork, so he took it. Eldrin and Grimm returned to Milborne and delivered the goblin heads to Garon, who put them in a big sack and gave them to his apprentice to run over tot he mayors house. He then paid the two triumphant heros 50 gold peices. five gold for each head, and an extra ten for the chiefs. And thats where the session ended. :cool: Next time I plan to send them on a couple nothing jobs before setting them up on another quest. So any advice, questions, comments, ect? please be nice I am new at this.
Snake_Oil 09-05-06, 12:04 PM	No comments? No advice? :confused:
UltimateReality 09-05-06, 12:15 PM	Not really much to comment on, except to say good first session, and it makes me wish I was with my group that included new players again...
Arganis 09-05-06, 12:20 PM	Your first session seems brilliant on a quintessential level, and by no means bland. Simplistic, perhaps, but that is only a bad thing if you want it to be; convoluted plots and complicated dungeons do not necessarily make an adventure fun. It sounds like your PCs and world make good use of traditional fantasy stereotypes and common adventuring themes without going overboard. This is a Good Thing (TM). If I had any advice for you it would be to keep doing what you're doing, and by all means, post your next session as well. When it comes down to it though, the only thing required to make a session a success is that everyone has fun. Sounds like you did that, so good job.
Feriin 09-05-06, 12:30 PM	Sounds like you ran a pretty good session to me. Looks like you kept the encounters small enough to be challenging, yet big enough to give the pcs enough worry so they had to be smart in how they fought. The only thing I can say is that if you haven't thought of it yet, is to determine exactly how big your town is. Your pcs will sooner or later want to buy armor weapons or magic items, be ready with what that has to offer in those areas.
Sadrx 09-05-06, 12:31 PM	This seems like an excellent first session. By your prose, it seems to me that you probably did a fine job setting the scene and describing the setting. If you're not yet too familiar with the rules, that will undoubtedly come with time, but it sounds to me like you understand them well enough if you're already running spell casting enemies in your first session. Moving on to the advice, I don't really need to try extra hard to be nice as I've got nothing very critical to say -- only a few steps to point out that you can take in the future. Whole books could be and have been written on tips for new DMs, but instead of attempting such a feat, I'll just point out two suggestions that occurred to me while reading of your session. First tip. Goblins tend to be of average intelligence, but running the players against a few of the more stupid, tribal ones helps simplify combat. Stupid creatures tend to fight in a rather straight-forward manner. Thus, there was nothing wrong with your villains for a first session, but as the game progresses, your players will get more enjoyment out of fighting craftier foes. That means you have to be craftier, but in doing so, it ups the playing field for your players to be craftier too. Imagine if the goblins in the two side rooms heard the combat in the main hall. The adepts would have readied themselves or the chieftain with buffing spells, and though each room might have prepared to be invaded -- the goblins preferring to gain the upper hand with an ambush rather then rushing to the aid of their peons -- after the party initiated combat with the other room, the chieftain and his two adepts, for instance, would move in to catch the rear of your party while they are already engaged. When your players see the monsters using tactics such as these, they will get drawn further into the game as they must invent their own strategies to counter those of the villains. Second tip. Using the mercenary plot device early on in your player's gaming career works beautifully. It's a staple of D&D, but to most of us, it is a a cliche. It is a great tool for new players, however, not only because they aren't yet tired of it, but because it so efficiently sets them on their course. New players tend to have what is known as a 'Video Game Mentality' when they first start out in D&D. They are always asking, "What's next?". To someone used to fantasy only in novels and video games, D&D can be a little awkward. If they're not on a mission or responding to the antagonists, they'll sit around, stare at their character sheets, and see only paper and the room they're in rather than the King's castle before their characters. They wont know quite what to do next. As long as you keep them on a mission and having to deal with some threat or another, the game will keep on flowing. This is why being mercenaries works so well. If the game slows down too much for too long, someone can come along and hire the party. While what you're doing is working well now, however, your players will soon -- and maybe very soon given their roleplaying -- develop characters with real motivation and not just a desire for gold and experience as if they were in a video game. To cater to this, you're going to have to start planning adventures to fit their characters. I personally never run pre-written modules. I always start with the characters my players have made, and then I think about what their goals are, what motivates them, and what's in their past -- hopefully your players have told you. If you can cater to at least a few of those things for each character, you can write an adventure that doesn't require the characters be hired and given specific mission goals. One of my goals when writing adventures if for them to very subtly draw in the players such that they don't even realize they've started on an adventure at all; they're just doing what their character would do. I should also say that, really, you foremost have to know your players and what kind of game they like before writing something for the characters, but that's a whole other tip -- and it is covered quite well in the DMG II.
Snake_Oil 09-05-06, 12:48 PM	Thanks everyone for the advice, its all very good and should help me to improve on my game. Also, Sadrx, that is some good advice on smarter enemies. I thought about that a little while I was writeing up the above adventure, thats why the goblin chief and his adepts were hideing in the furs when Eldrin and Grimm entered the room. They heard the heros coming. Thinking about it now, the two adepts in the shrine room should have come to the aid of the three goblins in the common room, but oh well. :) I will deffinetly continue to post my sessions here, in the hopes of furthur advice, and perhaps ideas on directions the game could take. As of right now I only have plans for them to continue their merc career, but both of them do have long term goals. Grimm hopes to one day return to his clan and gain full status as an adult in their eyes, and Eldrin is interested in visitingThronval, the halfling kingdom and birth place of the halfling race.
trapspringer 09-05-06, 12:56 PM	Good boss fight. That's tricky to do, but the one big fighter guy with two healer-caster back ups sneak attacking the party is a good low level fight. On Rules: I'd point out that dwarves have darkvision, so the lantern may or may not have been necessary initially. On Plot: Two players is a great number, becuase you storyline can be very cinematic. I mean, how many really good dramatic movies star a group of five people? It's usually like one unlikely hero on a quest to set things right with his trusty sidekick and a hapless supporting character for comedy releif. It isn't much a stretch to fit that archetype evenly and fairly to a two person group, especially characters with a backstory that makes them very close. I'd recommend some sort of long-reaching, cataclysmic event they can avert around level seven. That would feel epic and important without getting into anything to game-breaking as far as mechanical power goes.
Tunjunz 09-05-06, 01:04 PM	I thought that your first session sounds great and as a new player also, i thought that i would ask for some advice on creating a session. where the characters prepared ages before you wrote the town description, do you already have a long term goal for your chareacters and things of that nature. Thanks!
Arganis 09-05-06, 01:37 PM	I have a few comments in response to Sad's feedback. His advice on more intelligent foes is great, but Tip 2 has a few problems in my esteem. These are not problems with Sad's advice, which is very good. I am merely concerned that some of his statements apply negative connotations to things that are only bad if they are undesired. Using the mercenary plot device early on in your player's gaming career works beautifully. It's a staple of D&D, but to most of us, it is a a cliche. It is a great tool for new players, however, not only because they aren't yet tired of it, but because it so efficiently sets them on their course. Sad's advice on varying plot hooks is very good. A game should not always begin the same way. However, new gamers are not the only players who can effectively use the mercenary plothook. It is just as viable as any other plot hook in its own right. The only downside of it is that many who have played D&D for a while have personally overused it and are therefore tired of it. Play 8 PCs in a row who set out into the world to find their long-lost-sister and you get the same result. I'm also going to pretend to be Vaalingrade for a second and point out that no matter what your PCs choose to call themselves, the term mercenary almost always applies. New players tend to have what is known as a 'Video Game Mentality' when they first start out in D&D. There is no corelation between D&D Experience and employment of a Video Game Mentality. Further, a Video Game Mentality does not contradict ANY basic concepts of D&D and is just as valid a play-style as any other. If they're not on a mission or responding to the antagonists, they'll sit around, stare at their character sheets, and see only paper and the room they're in rather than the King's castle before their characters. They wont know quite what to do next. This statement is incorrect. An experienced player who approaches D&D with a Video Game Mentality is not going to sit around wondering what to do next. They are never "without direction". They will actively seek NPCs and question them about the world around them in an effort to find "quest text". Sad's implication is that applying a Video Game mentality to D&D is something to be grown out of. That is not the case. Many very experienced players work this way and very much enjoy it--well into the higher levels.
Sadrx 09-05-06, 03:09 PM	Arganis is quite correct in his comments on the mercenary plot hook. It is mostly an 'old hat' thing to those of us who played in previous editions where, in an effort to accommodate a standard adventuring party, almost every published adventure started out by getting hired -- usually in a tavern. Play adventures straight out of Dungeon Magazine these days, and you'll find it far less frequently used. I also have to admit that even in my often elitist view-point, actively deciding to make characters that fit the mercenary role is a perfectly legitimate story arc that can be very rewarding. I dislike the mercenary plot hook really only when a DM uses it to be lazy when it doesn't fit the characters at all. There is no corelation between D&D Experience and employment of a Video Game Mentality. Working from my experiences, I can't exactly agree with that statement. I was being a bit general in my statement that new players tend to have the Video Game Mentality, as really, I have seen it mostly stem out of those who are familiar with video games when trying out D&D. New D&D players who have a bigger background in the Arts (such as theatre or writing), for instance, tend to have their own specific mentality when adjusting to the game. So, while a new player might not have the Video Game Mentality, what I am classifying as that mentality does disappear with experience from those who begin D&D with it. Further, a Video Game Mentality does not contradict ANY basic concepts of D&D and is just as valid a play-style as any other. ... An experienced player who approaches D&D with a Video Game Mentality is not going to sit around wondering what to do next. They are never "without direction". They will actively seek NPCs and question them about the world around them in an effort to find "quest text". This is why I think that Arganis and I are classifying different things entirely as the Video Game Mentality. Though I referred to playing sheerly with the desire for your character to acquire gold and experience playing "as if in a video game", this play style is not what I refer to when I talk of a new player as having a "Video Game Mentality". Playing D&D as though it were a video game can be very enjoyable. Doing so sets clearly defined parameters for the players by which they can measure their characters' success, and D&D allows limitless options of real-world strategies for the character to employ to be successful like no video game does. Playing in this manner is something you might be doing without even realizing it, but it is a style that you can choose to play in or not. I assume this play style is what Arganis thought I meant by the Video Game Mentality. To ensure that my previous post gets across clearly enough, I will attempt to better define what I refer to as the Video Game Mentality. (For the record, my definition is not for a completely moot phrase outside of this discussion as I have both used and seen this phrase used in other threads on this forum.) The Video Game Mentality is a mindset of some novice D&D players. It originates from being unfamiliar with the play concepts of a pen and paper roleplaying game and results in players falling back on the concepts of play in a video game. Specifically, players in the Video Game Mentality tend to be unable to think beyond the current 'screen'. How it works out depends on how they roleplay their character, but, as an example: If there are monsters, they will fight them; if they are given a mission, they will follow it; if a noteworthy NPC is described, they will talk to him or her; if given obvious choices (like a fork in a road) they will make a decision; and if provoked or approached, they should be able to react accordingly. If, however, you leave their character to their own devices -- say, by depositing them in a town for down time -- they tend to have a complete inability to instigate their own encounters. Video Game Mentality character basically stand their characters where you left them after your last description and look at you and ask, "What's next?". It takes time, but new player slowly get in the hang of 'what's next'. As early on as when the players remember that their characters need to sell loot and find an inn to sleep in when they get to town, they are beginning to shake the Video Game Mentality. Eventually they begin to think in terms of the simulation world, and without the specific experience, will think to make camp while traveling or to buy gear before leaving. Sad's implication is that applying a Video Game mentality to D&D is something to be grown out of. That is not the case. Many very experienced players work this way and very much enjoy it--well into the higher levels. Yes indeed -- to both of us. The "Video Game Mentality" is something to be grown out of as hopefully you have see from my above definition. Additionally, and very separately, as pointed out by Arganis, the video game style of play is used, knowingly and not, by a large percentage of experienced players who do very much enjoy it.
Arganis 09-05-06, 03:22 PM	To ensure that my previous post gets across clearly enough, I will attempt to better define what I refer to as the Video Game Mentality... Good clarification Sad. I now understand you to be saying that newer players tend to require active guidance on the part of the GM (hand-holding, nose-leading, railroading, etc.) To the extent that this is the case, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and further agree that this sort of thing diminishes (hopefully) with time, providing the GM does not perpetually cater to it. That said, I'd maintain that Video Game Mentality is an inappropriate term here because it isn't really related to videogames except by circumstantial evidence that "most new players come to D&D from video games" and "most new players require handholding". This is all just the inexperience that comes with trying something new.
Sadrx 09-05-06, 03:28 PM	That said, I'd maintain that Video Game Mentality is an inappropriate term here because it isn't really related to videogames except by circumstantial evidence that "most new players come to D&D from video games". It is merely the inexperience of anyone trying something new Maybe, as it isn't exclusive to video game converts, but have you ever played with one of those Arts -- especially theatre --students? Having a different sort of background, they get right into the game world and their character, usually acting out every mundane thing. Despite having good battle cries, they tend to get clobbered in combat, though, since number crunching strategy is something they usually have less experience in.
Sadrx 09-05-06, 03:29 PM	As of right now I only have plans for them to continue their merc career, but both of them do have long term goals. Grimm hopes to one day return to his clan and gain full status as an adult in their eyes, and Eldrin is interested in visitingThronval, the halfling kingdom and birth place of the halfling race. If you're having a great social time, players can keep coming back to the gaming table whether or not the game is good, but as far as D&D is concerned, here is a tip to get them more involved stemming from what I was saying about adventures. If you know something about your PCs, ues it. Not all at once, but inventory the tidbits of information and gradually work them into the plot. If they're mercenaries and the main plot ends with each bounty, consider integrating the characters' interests and backgrounds into the game in small ways. Perhaps they meet a halfling from Thronval or a Dwarf from Grimm's clan. Whether or not this character has something to do with a plot, the encounter can help bring out roleplaying with your party, and if you think up a backstory for the character that your party might be interested in, perhaps you've got an adventure hook without even realizing it. Make the character likeable, and then give him or her a woe. Maybe he needs money, or maybe he needs some orcs killed. Good-aligned parties generally can't resist trying to solve those sorts of problems.
Arganis 09-05-06, 04:07 PM	Maybe, as it isn't exclusive to video game converts, but have you ever played with one of those Arts -- especially theatre --students? Having a different sort of background, they get right into the game world and their character, usually acting out every mundane thing. Despite having good battle cries, they tend to get clobbered in combat, though, since number crunching strategy is something they usually have less experience in. My first real exposure to GMing was with WW's World of Darkness stuff, so I have definitely seen all kinds of new players, and I know the type to which you refer. It is a fair generalization, but not for the purposes of identifying and solving problems with new players. In my esteem, the problems that each new player has with adapting (i.e., becoming comfortable with) D&D are related to their origin (for lack of a better word), but not directly related. Some problems span various origins (or appear counter-intuitive) in such a way that it is more useful to refer to the problem directly rather than to try and associate the problem with a specific origin. Off the top of my head, one should identify the core issue and then explain how various players can encounter the issue, such as: Note that I exclude an obvious sides of some statements (ex: "Videogamers can understand a character sheet because they work with them a lot") while actually addressing the other side, which may be less intuitive. Working with the Basic Mechanics - This means mentally mapping your character sheet to actions you can take in the game, and memorizing the possible actions. Any player can have a problem with this. Dramatic folk can catch on easily here because they are familiar with the general concept of taking a character write-up from print to performance and can be very good at rote memorization (depending on their approach to acting), or they could be totally lost in the numbers, shorthand, etc. A videogamer may have no experience with this sort of thing because most videogame mechanics are not transparent. More strength means more damage, but the gamer has no need to consider the actual mechanic of translation. The worst mechanical D&D player I know is the best Final Fantasy player I know. Learning Combat Strategies - In general, avid videogamers are better at visualising the course of combat, depending on the type of gamer, but most videogames (even CRPGs) never approach the complexity of tabletop simulation, for similar reasons to the above: A videogamer is rarely requested to actively translate the underlying mechanic. In my experience, once the mechanics are understood, the best combat strategists are not videogamers, but chess/go players. Role-Playing and Motivation - A dramatic type is just as prone to breaking character to make a joke or ask a question about a mechanic than any other player. Videogamers with RPG experience have a wealth of knowledge of various fantasy/sci-fi archetypes and can leverage that as an advantage. A videogamer may seek motivation in a straightforward fashion, as if seeking "quest text". Because of their experience, they may be better at this than a dramatic type, who simply may not know what questions to ask. Sci-Fi/Fantasy readers may be good at developing characters, but could have problems breaking stereotypes. Kind of a half-baked list and explanation of each, but hopefully you get the idea.
nlentz88 09-05-06, 04:09 PM	Doesn't anyone else think that 100 GP, "a few silver pieces," "a small topaz," two potions of cure light wounds, and a masterwork short sword might be too much treasure for two 1st level characters who just dispatched 8 goblins?
Feriin 09-05-06, 04:26 PM	Well seeing as some of the goblins had character levels , no. I almost think its too little.
Snake_Oil 09-06-06, 01:14 PM	Alright, heres what I've come up with for the next session. Eldrin and Grimm will first have to deal with a mountian lion that has been seen in the area. The local farmers have gotten together and put a bounty on it for 100 silver pieces. This will be a simple track and kill mission, or possibly track and capture if they decide to save the lion and take it furthur up the mountians, away from the farmland. After that simple missions, the two mercs will get news of a small group of troglodytes that have appeared down river from town. What they wont know is that this group is under the command of a large orc named Gulg. Gulg took controle of the trogs after leaving his own tribe. He left his tribe because they decided to join with a new tribe that has been forming in the Wyrmsmoke Mountains (this is hinting at future game events, since I'm hopeing to eventualy run Eldrin and Grimm through the Red Hand of Doom premade adventure). Now for the problem. I can't think of a valid reason why these trogs would listen to a single orc (I was considering giveing Gulg some magic item or weapon, but I'm wary of letting such things fall into the hands of Eldrin and Grimm). My second problem is that I can't think of a reason to get Eldrin and Grimm to go after the trogs. They haven't done anything to the town, so no one has put a bounty on them. Any suggestions on how to handle these problems? Also, any advice on intelligent trog tactics? If it helps, they are inhabiting a small, abandoned farmhouse surrounded by flooded, marsh-like farmland, dotted with trees and thick shurbs. Thnaks in advance for any help.
trapspringer 09-06-06, 02:22 PM	Well seeing as some of the goblins had character levels , no. I almost think its too little. That was my initial reaction, then I thought about it and really it seems dead on. Those three encounters should be about half way to the next level, at which point they should have around twenty two hundred in gear. It's pushing light, but that's good because this was a minor side quest gig and you don't want to doll out the rewards to heavy for that kind of stuff.
PiedmonSama 09-06-06, 02:40 PM	Alright, heres what I've come up with for the next session. Eldrin and Grimm will first have to deal with a mountian lion that has been seen in the area. The local farmers have gotten together and put a bounty on it for 100 silver pieces. This will be a simple track and kill mission, or possibly track and capture if they decide to save the lion and take it furthur up the mountians, away from the farmland. After that simple missions, the two mercs will get news of a small group of troglodytes that have appeared down river from town. What they wont know is that this group is under the command of a large orc named Gulg. Gulg took controle of the trogs after leaving his own tribe. He left his tribe because they decided to join with a new tribe that has been forming in the Wyrmsmoke Mountains (this is hinting at future game events, since I'm hopeing to eventualy run Eldrin and Grimm through the Red Hand of Doom premade adventure). Now for the problem. I can't think of a valid reason why these trogs would listen to a single orc (I was considering giveing Gulg some magic item or weapon, but I'm wary of letting such things fall into the hands of Eldrin and Grimm). My second problem is that I can't think of a reason to get Eldrin and Grimm to go after the trogs. They haven't done anything to the town, so no one has put a bounty on them. Any suggestions on how to handle these problems? Also, any advice on intelligent trog tactics? If it helps, they are inhabiting a small, abandoned farmhouse surrounded by flooded, marsh-like farmland, dotted with trees and thick shurbs. Thnaks in advance for any help. Trogs are an odd choice. They are literally so repellant to anything that is not a Troglodyte that, even to other reptillian humanoids, they are a Kill on Sight. Funnily enough, the Trogs are isolated not because they are any more repellant in personality than Orcs or Goblins, but because of their smell. Troglodytes are surrounded by an odor that will literally make any other humanoid nauseous. That's why they're so despised that their lairs and communities have to exist in secrecy, or they'd be exterminated. However, this can help you. Because Troglodytes are so isolated, they are often much more primitive than even other Savage Races. This group of Troglodytes might only have (very crude) hide armor and the most primitive weaponry (stone axes, stone spear & arrowheads, and warclubs.) You could have Gulg be a very powerful figure to the Trogs without even giving him super-fantastic gear. Just give him heavy armor (Splint Mail, maybe) and a steel Greatsword, and he'd be like a God to these ultra-primitive Trogs. The question is how Gulg can even get near them without having to fight the urge to vomit. Maybe he was born without a sense of smell, making him immune to the Trogs' unique attack (and thus even more "Godlike" to them.) These are just suggestions, but if you were wondering, the rules on stone weaponry are a -1 to attack and damage, as well as a reduced hardness score.
Snake_Oil 09-06-06, 02:48 PM	Oh PiedmonSama thats a very good idea :) Though I plan to have Gulg use a big morningstar instead of a greatsword. :P However you pose a good question, why isn't Gulg affected by the trog's stench? I don't really like the "born without smell" explination, it just sems to easy. I'm also still left with the problem of getting Eldrin and Grimm to go after the trogs, and I'm still looking for some good trog combat tactics.
PiedmonSama 09-06-06, 02:59 PM	Well, if you want to impress upon your players that Gulg is Very Hard Indeed, then you could just not make him immune. Give him the Great Fortitude feat so he can better pass the Con save he has to take everytime a Trog gets close, and then be sure to describe how, "instead of falling over and gagging at the Trogs' approach, the big orc bites his lip until it bleeds and stiffly orders them forward." Alternatively, you have an opportunity to do some golden comedy right here. Gulg may have fallen in with these smelly Troglodytes by complete accident, and found himself thrust in as their new chieftain. He's trying his best to act like a proper Orc and direct these reprobates into some good old-fashioned looting and pillaging, but he has to keep them at a distance and shout all his commands from upwind. "Chief, you are injured!" "No, no, I'm fine--just, stay over there!" *Uproots arrow from torso.* Or maybe he just stuffs his Orcy snout with cotton dabbed in alcohol. (That will eventually kill your sense of smell...) As far as Trog tactics go, I can't help you much there since I've never actually used them in a campaign myself. Since they're chaotic evil, they're probably poorly organized and will only obey orders so long as there's someone more powerful to boss them around. What will probably happen is your players will want to storm the farmhouse. Be sure the Trogs have a sentry on the roof, probably with a shortbow, and be sure they've sawed archery slits ("murder holes") out of the sides of the barn. Also, anytime you stick your villains in something made of wood, be prepared for your PCs to try and burn it down. Give the Trogs an easy escape rout if molotov cocktails start hurtling through the windows. Also make sure they have buckets of sawdust to snuff out fires quickly. Since their weaponry is primitive (I'm assuming), the Trogs should opt for highly mobile hit-and-run tactics in their attacks. Use the swamp for cover constantly, surround the enemy before you attack them, soften them up with arrows as much as possible before charging in.
Arganis 09-06-06, 03:00 PM	However you pose a good question, why isn't Gulg affected by the trog's stench? I don't really like the "born without smell" explination, it just sems to easy. I'm also still left with the problem of getting Eldrin and Grimm to go after the trogs, and I'm still looking for some good trog combat tactics. Actually, there's no need to give him a Noseplug of Anti-Nasty magic item or even destroy his nose. The simplest, easiest, most reasonable answer is that Gulg is used to the smell. It's a perfectly legitimate explanation that does not require any coincidences. As for controlling the troglodytes, it need not be magic, it could just as easily be that they are afraid of Gulg, or believe Gulg will look out for them if they serve him. And like Piedmon said, perhaps they are secretly greatful for the company. Considering all previous adventures have been "kill this for money" why not explore another avenue, as Sad initially suggested. Perhaps the PCs are hired to retrieve an item from the farm, search the area for an herb, seek a lost villiager, etc.
ashcat_lt 09-06-06, 03:40 PM	First off, bravo. Welcome to the community. BTW, your life as you've known it so far is over. A couple suggestions off the top of my head. Maybe Gulg has his own problems with BO? Orcs aren't known for their personal hygiene as it is, but Gulg has a little something extra. He's always been kind of stigmatized in his tribe, but was kept around as a "secret weapon." Maybe his own stench isn't quite bad enough to incur the same penalties as the trogs, but it does make him immune to theirs. It also helps to garner some respect from them. With the savage races, especially the chaotic ones, it's perfectly acceptable to use the "might makes right" excuse. The leader says "I'm bigger than you, do what I say or die." The followers say "He's bigger than us. Maybe we can hide behind him when nasty things come along." As for getting the PCs there. You could rethink your idea on not having a bounty on them. Maybe they've been bothering fishermen on the river? Maybe they're actually upstream and are polluting the waters somehow. Nobody's sure where it's coming from, but the PCs are asked to investigate. Or you could send them in that direction for some other reason entirely. They travel past the old farmhouse, and pay it no mind. As they get a little further down the road, with no shelter in sight, a nasty storm blows up and they run back there to ride it out. Edit: those last two posts weren't there when I hit the reply button. Also, I just thought that maybe the farmhouse is exactly one day's march in the direction they need to go anyway, and makes a convenient stopping point. Edit2: I also wanted to mention another thing you might want to think about. How exactly do you expect your PCs to find out the info on Gulg's old tribe? It might strike them as odd that an orc is hanging out with trogs, but will they stop to ask him before killing him?
Snake_Oil 09-06-06, 04:29 PM	A whole bunch of good ideas :) To handle the stench problem, I think I'm going to give Gulg a high fortitude save and have him just deal with it. When the heros fight him he'll probably fight alone, so he dosen't risk becomeing affected by the trogs smell. To get Eldrin and Grimm to go after the trogs, I'm thinking I'll have Milborne's local priest send them on a "quest" to find an herb that only grows in the flooded farmland. While searching the marsh they will encounter a trog hunting party, and hopefully Eldrin will be able to trace their tracks back to the farm house. Eldrin and Grimm wont stop to talk to Gulg once they find out about him, but I was thinking the orc might have an old banner or some other item with the smbol of his old tribe on it. Eldrin and Grimm could take this symbol back to town and ask around about it. Alot of people in town will recognize it since that tribe used to harrass travelers on the old road, before the High Road was built. They will mention that that partiular tribe hasn't been seen in a few weeks. I'm still a little concerned about tactics however. An archer on the roof of the farm house is a good idea, but what about the hunting party who will be encountered out of sight of the farmhouse? Hideing in the marsh isn't really a great option, the shrubs and trees are few and far between, except around the farmouse where the ground is somewhat dryer, but the water is only about a foot deep.
PiedmonSama 09-06-06, 04:32 PM	Notice that Trogs are long, and supine, shaped rather like newts or salamanders. A foot of water might be all they need if they drop to all fours. IIRC, they can hold their breath four times as long as a human of equivalent constitution, in which case they could use the low waters to sneak behind and surround your PCs, hopefully without being noticed.
Sadrx 09-06-06, 04:43 PM	It depends on your characters, but don't worry about not putting a bounty on the trogs. Make it known to the party that the bad guys are there, and make many of the townsfolk worried as they often get when monsters are nearby. The town doesn't place a bounty because there have been no incidents; the farmers can afford 100 sp for a mountain lion, but not what killing trogs is worth (and they're not close enough the swamps to care); but finally, the worried townsfolk, mostly people who don't get out much, can offer a measly sum of 10 gold total and knowing that is not much, plead with the party to wipe the the monsters out. Your party is more than likely to investigate the creatures, but they will also be likely to be hesitant jumping right to killing the trogs if you haven't established that the monsters as evil with facts rather than towns-people suspicion. If the party decides not to go, that's fine. Send them on another mission, and then have a bounty finally placed on the creatures for something they've done by the time the PCs return. If they gain a level between now and then, be ready to increase the difficulty of the trog encounter with one or two extra and an additional level on the orc. -- Which brings me to my next suggestion: If you want the orc to lead the troglodytes, give him some levels. Given that trogs are CR 1 creatures, he needs to be at least a level 2 warrior or a level 1 fighter to compete on even ground with a single trog. Combining that with his metal armour and weapons and some ranks in intimidate might be all it takes to lead the trogs, but if you really want him to stand out in combat, you'll need at least another level on him over those. As for the troglodytes, stick with their clubs and javelins for weapons. Advancing them to bows makes there less of a technological gap between them and the orc, and I personally think you need to tone down their combat effectiveness to make them a good encounter. Three trogs and the orc as a level 3 warrior or 2nd level fighter are a suitable one-room encounter for a 5th level party, bordering on 6th. That means it would be very difficult to overpowering for your party of first level adventurers. I say make rumors of the trogs spread about, but try and keep the PCs from fighting them until your party has gained 2nd level at least. If after spreading the rumors, your party wants to investigate immediately, have the town step in with a bounty that needs collecting immediately instead; the town will argue the trogs don't need dealing with if a bounty hasn't been put out on them. In the end, this is how I would consider running it: Troglodytes only emit their penalizing musk when aggravated or frightened, so the orc can put up with them under normal living conditions. He, however, doesn't enjoy fighting along side them at all, so perhaps he has taken to commanding them because he uses a bow. On the other hand, while I usually describe a troglodyte's musk as a sinuses penetrating stench (hence the temporary penalties despite being described as causing a sickness), a creature is considered immune for 24 hours if it does make the save, so feel free to make the orc resistant to the penalties if he's been around them enough. For defenses, troglodytes have good listen and hide checks, not spot checks. You could change that, but to use it, have the troglodyte look-out actually be listening instead. One is positioned near the easiest approach to the farmhouse, submerged except for its nose, hiding and listening. If he hears the party, he will attempt to retreat to the farm house and alert the others using his hide roll. To make it easier on the party, however, have him attack if he's spotted so they can eliminate one of the trogs before the big battle. When it comes to the farmhouse, they'll be ready if alerted, and if not, will be caught with their pants down. If they're aware the PCs are coming, the trogs will probably hold position in rafters to ambush the party inside, but either way, the orc might be open to talk first if the party isn't initially hostile, but he'll probably just try to lure them into a trap. When the fight breaks out, however, anyone in the building would hear it, so they'll all be involved in the fight. That being the case, make sure your party will be able to handle the encounter as they could easily get overwhelmed. EDIT: I started before reading the last two posts, so make of this what you will.