Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MasterRookie 01-28-05, 10:33 PM	My name says it all. I'm a first time DM and I've done something very stupid. I gave a Holy Avenger longsword to a level five Paladin. I don't want to simply take the weapon away. I supose it could be destroyed in an epic battle of some sort. At anyrate I'd be happy to hear any first time blunders any of you have had. It would be both amusing and reasuring.
twad 01-28-05, 10:48 PM	make a thief in some town notice the sword and try to steal it at night. Make sure the player can actually roll to see if the rogue stole it or not.
SearcherOmega 01-28-05, 10:49 PM	I set a CR 3 Dire Wolf against two level 2 PCs. They barely won, but... whew, that was close. I'm just thankful they had warhorses, or it would have been my first TPK. Then I gave the party a +1 Flaming Morningstar at level 3, without realizing the bloody thing cost more than likely their combined Wealth by Character Level values. I was able to resolve this by having one of the gnoll's prisoners begin rummaging through their loot and cursing that she can't find her 'mace' anywhere. They were unusually compliant to give her the weapon back. Those're the two I can think of off the top of my head.
MasterRookie 01-28-05, 11:31 PM	make a thief in some town notice the sword and try to steal it at night. Make sure the player can actually roll to see if the rogue stole it or not. too simple. I thought up a good Idea now. I'm going to make him get really attached to that sword. His character become's a hero with it. Then I'll get him to try and fight the highest level enemy I've created so far. A level 16 fighter level 2 wizard with a flaming vorpal sword. In the battle the Holy Avenger is broken. I'll say that he has a choice. He can pull it up at the last second to block a critical hit. Or he say goodbye to his head. The sword is shattered leaving only a hilt shard. Its only remaining power is the spell resistance feild. He'll have a lasting reminder of his fatal hubris. And he learns a valuable lesson it is the heart that makes the hero not the weapon.
MasterRookie 01-28-05, 11:33 PM	I set a CR 3 Dire Wolf against two level 2 PCs. They barely won, but... whew, that was close. I'm just thankful they had warhorses, or it would have been my first TPK. Then I gave the party a +1 Flaming Morningstar at level 3, without realizing the bloody thing cost more than likely their combined Wealth by Character Level values. I was able to resolve this by having one of the gnoll's prisoners begin rummaging through their loot and cursing that she can't find her 'mace' anywhere. They were unusually compliant to give her the weapon back. Those're the two I can think of off the top of my head. Quite amusing indeed. I'd say I feel better now on my own because I thought of a good way to reslove the problem. Through story rather than my shear power as DM.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-28-05, 11:39 PM	first D&D game I DMed: I thought the CR had to be the sum of the party's level to be chalenging. My level 6 group went against a few purple worms... As he fight a powerfull evil foe, said foe magicaly open a portal from wich a legion of fiendish creatures will burst forth, overwhelming the party. The paladin see it. Have a few players make a spellcraft or knowledge (religion) check. Have them succeed only to learn that the only way to close the portal (aside from a doomed-to-fail dispel) is to throw a powerfull source of holy energy... Watch the paladin save the day by throwing his sword... Reward the group with a lot of pyrotechnics and tell the paladin's player you made a mistake giving him so powerfull a weapon. If he's mature, he'll understand .
TLomon 01-28-05, 11:49 PM	By just destroying the item, you may create animosity with the player. I do have an alternative suggestion for you. #1: The player finds out that the sword is intelligent. #2: After conversing with the sword, the paladin determines the soul within the sword is another paladin that died while trying to take out a BBEG. #3: The BBEG is now old and frail, and quite possibly undead. #4: The swords sole purpose is to destroy the BBEG. #5: Upon contact, sword casts a distigrate on the BBEG, or something equally devistating. #6: Purpose complete, the soul of the paladin is released, leaving behind a normal +2 sword. This way, the paladin is a hero by completing the task set before him that a previous paladin failed in. Back in the day, we had multiple DMs for different adventures. Kind of shifting off. My campaign was the only common ground that was followed. However, occasionally wierd things happened (in my case, it was a lvl 3 paladin that was given a holy avenger) and I did my best to resolve the issue without making the players feel cheated.
Bringslite 01-29-05, 12:23 AM	In one of my early campaigns (1st ed), there were 3 PCs. One was chaotic Evil, one Lawful Good, and one Nuetral. There are 3 sets of artifacts in that edition keyed to Law, Chaos, and Neutrality. They were the Orbs, Crowns, and Scepters of Might and by 10th lvl each PC had all three (one of each). They were unstopable, killing triple strength, huge ancient red worms and demon lords left and right. That campaign was a monty haul nightmare. :D The most important thing to remember is that these things happen to almost all DMs in the early stages. We get impatient for our PCs to be Super-Heroic and pump them up too fast. We forget that the struggle to get there is really what makes a campaign memorable. Learn from your mistakes. Give out treasure (monetary and magical) at the slowest rate that will maintain player interest. Follow the DMG guidelines. If you don't want to deal with PC MONSTERS then don't create PC MONSTERS. As for what to do about the holy avenger: 1. As already suggested, a thief steals it. 2. An evil and powerful wizard takes notice of it and jumps the PC casting Mordenkainen's Disjunuction on it until it succeeds. 3. The PCs church, concerned over this item in the hands of such a novice, takes it away until the player reaches a lvl were he can use with less risk of death and it's loss, All of these could be great story lines and generate adventures.
Talon Blackhart 01-29-05, 12:26 AM	Biggest mistake I made: Not looking at the character sheet of a particular player before we really started playing. I had been DMing for a while (nearly 2 years), and had told my players to rol up level 15 chars. I gave them approximately the appropriate amount of gold (slightly high, as I was playing a high-magic homebrew, and they would have found items as they adventured). One of my players decided to play a minotaur variant he had found. (He didn't mention this to me when he told me what he was going to be creating.) He then took 1 level in bard and 5 in fighter. The 1 level of bard was to give him the arcane spellcasting he needed to pick up the Dragon Disciple PrC. (Which I think is a little broken, anyway). He took enough levels in that to have wings and a serious breath weapon, and got all of the STR and CON bonuses that are supposed to really help a wizard, but made for an over-powered fighter. He then spent 95% of his gold on 3 things: a sword with too many bonuses to be legal, a suit of armor that was just insane, and a large shield (also insane). As you can guess, this was a problem. It became really apparent to me when he blew through a group of 10 level 15 fighters all by himself. (That encounter was supposed to be overwhelming for the group.) His character didn't last long, and was killed, mostly becuase the player wouldn't discuss fixing things out of game. The rest of the group still refers to this incident as "super-cow". Now, for the OP's question: I agree that destroying it outright is a bad way to go, even if it is story-line based. Plus, I woud wager that the sword is the only weapon he carries, and there's no logical reason for that particular enemy to suddenly pick on someone else as soon as the paladin's sword is broken. Therefore, the enemy should strike a death-blow next, or at the very least, try harder to kill him now that he's been disarmed. Suggestion: As a paladin, he should have to answer to a higher authority (i.e., a church, with people in charge.) Have one of them decide that they need the sword to give to another paladin of higher level who's going off to fight this BBEG. The higher-level paladin doesn't make it back. Your paladin can then spend time chasing after the BBEG (who just happens to be the BBEG for your campaign) to avenge his fallen comrade (and get his sword back), and by the time he finds the BBEG and kills him, he's of a more appropriate level for the sword. That solution gives you a story hook, a non-"I just took it away" method, and a way for the paladin to achieve honor amongst his peers.
Ramses III 01-29-05, 03:16 AM	Another idea: if there is some noble, royalty, or other rich person the characters know, have them recognize the sword as a long-lost family heirloom. Have them be really nice about asking for it back, and do a roleplaying reward if the PC does it.
Draco Strang 01-29-05, 03:29 AM	As was mentioned before, you could make the item intelligent. That said,I think I have an idea. If you have ever read Complete Divine, you'll remember the section on weapons that you have to take levels in their specific PrC to accomplish. Otherwise, their higher powers lie dormant. What I think you could do is have the sword revert to a +2 longsword, or whatever, and then as the paladin progresses in levels/fulfills certain quests and objectives (I would make these RP-style, but only hand them out every couple of levels) he gets another ability to the sword, i.e. he unlocks another +1 worth of enhancement, or the holy ability, etc. That way, you can have the weapon grow with the character. He won't really feel nerfed, and it could open up some good storylines.
yeloson 01-29-05, 03:53 AM	Instead of "taking" it away from the player and cheating him of it, why not have his church ask to borrow it, so that a higher level paladin can take on something really, really nasty- WITH the promise to return it when done. Then return the sword when the paladin reaches an appropriate level. In the meantime, you might want to have the church offer to loan him some lesser magical equipment, such as an ok magic sword, and armor, or some otherwise lesser equipment with a wider range of abilities. Make sure to put challenges that use those other abilities, so the player sees how useful they are, and doesn't focus as much on the loss of the sword. Later, if you want to really have fun- you can send them on a quest to go rescue that higher level paladin... Chris
Tenzhi 01-29-05, 03:58 AM	Draco pretty much said it. Hobble the powers of the sword (preferably due to the machinations of some BBEG), have the Paladin go on quests to unlock the abilities of the sword (which will likely involve mucking with the plans of said BBEG, as that is the way the world of Good vs. Evil usually works), which will finally culminate in an epic battle with said BBEG that saves the world or something. In the vocabulary of DMs, "mistake" is often synonomous with "opportunity."
Draco Strang 01-29-05, 05:15 AM	Draco pretty much said it. Wow....that's twice in one day someone has said that on these boards. I think I'm gonna apply for a few divine ranks. :D
Santrilla 01-29-05, 05:47 AM	As a first time DM, I totally misunderstood the CR rating. For some reason I read "1/8" as "1 or 8". So I set a party of level 10 characters against a cave of goblins... Quite an embarrassing situation, I can assure you.
Nom 01-29-05, 07:23 AM	Draco has a good idea. However, if the player knows it's a Holy Avenger and has actually used it's full power, it's OK to start with "I've been thinking, and I reckon I made rather a big mistake." If you continue with "I could just take the sword away, but that wouldn't be particularly good for anyone, so I thought we could do this instead...". If you premise the discussion on the idea that you ought to simply remove the sword but are trying to work out a good compromise instead, then the player feels like you are being generous rather than stingy - he sees the options as "partial" or "none", not "partial" or "full".
Draco Strang 01-29-05, 08:04 AM	Draco has a good idea. My head has officially swollen guys....I plan to storm the boards and usurp control from the mods at the beginning of the month... :evillaugh Seriously though, in situations like these, the trick is to not back yourself into a corner and be a total weiner to your player. There is ALWAYS a way to work another angle on your mistakes. I can't tell you how many times I've had PC's whack one of my important NPCs, so what do I do? That's right...he paid someone to have a clone created a few days ago, as he was afraid of the players. One time my characters accidentally got themselves way too deep in a pile of trouble, having influenced two nations to go to war, and a cataclysm was approaching. They fought the battle, and everything turned out horribly, most of the PCs died, and the outcome was totally undesirable. Cue the dream sequence. The party's cleric woke up in cold sweats and used his premonition to stop his buddies from doing what they were about to do. Remember guys, there's always a way out of a mess-up you accidentally orchestrate.
Callista 01-29-05, 08:37 AM	I made a similar mistake, though not quite as bad; I gave a +1 Flaming Greatsword to a player at level 2. What I did was to adjust the CRs of the encounters slightly upwards, and tailor a lot of the treasure towards other party members, so that the fighter who got the greatsword ended up with mostly just expendable stuff (potions of healing and such, which she needed, being the meat shield and all). Eventually, the other characters ended up with +1 weapons and masterwork or better armor, catching up to the fighter and her greatsword nicely by level 5/6, which is where they're at now. Sometimes, if it's not that bad a mistake, you can just carefully take CRs up a little to compensate and wait it out.
Juan Moore 01-29-05, 08:56 AM	I did something way worse that killed the campaign... I only recently thought of a solution, but oh well. I allowed one of the characters to get True Sight permanent. My first time DMing and the monk can see all things... yeah. He initially agreed to 200 minutes a day, but everyone complained and the game shut down. So, in the future, avoid doing anything they can't do themselves. Unless you roll the Holy Avenger as treasure. That's cool.
ORC_Paradox 01-29-05, 09:06 AM	Heh, mess ups aren't limited to new players/DMs. (I've played since 1983.) While I can just blame bad dice rolls, I don't think a CR 2 trap should outright kill one of the characters, even though I did roll a critical hit with it.
MasterRookie 01-29-05, 10:09 AM	Biggest mistake I made: Not looking at the character sheet of a particular player before we really started playing. I had been DMing for a while (nearly 2 years), and had told my players to rol up level 15 chars. I gave them approximately the appropriate amount of gold (slightly high, as I was playing a high-magic homebrew, and they would have found items as they adventured). One of my players decided to play a minotaur variant he had found. (He didn't mention this to me when he told me what he was going to be creating.) He then took 1 level in bard and 5 in fighter. The 1 level of bard was to give him the arcane spellcasting he needed to pick up the Dragon Disciple PrC. (Which I think is a little broken, anyway). He took enough levels in that to have wings and a serious breath weapon, and got all of the STR and CON bonuses that are supposed to really help a wizard, but made for an over-powered fighter. He then spent 95% of his gold on 3 things: a sword with too many bonuses to be legal, a suit of armor that was just insane, and a large shield (also insane). As you can guess, this was a problem. It became really apparent to me when he blew through a group of 10 level 15 fighters all by himself. (That encounter was supposed to be overwhelming for the group.) His character didn't last long, and was killed, mostly becuase the player wouldn't discuss fixing things out of game. The rest of the group still refers to this incident as "super-cow". Now, for the OP's question: I agree that destroying it outright is a bad way to go, even if it is story-line based. Plus, I woud wager that the sword is the only weapon he carries, and there's no logical reason for that particular enemy to suddenly pick on someone else as soon as the paladin's sword is broken. Therefore, the enemy should strike a death-blow next, or at the very least, try harder to kill him now that he's been disarmed. Suggestion: As a paladin, he should have to answer to a higher authority (i.e., a church, with people in charge.) Have one of them decide that they need the sword to give to another paladin of higher level who's going off to fight this BBEG. The higher-level paladin doesn't make it back. Your paladin can then spend time chasing after the BBEG (who just happens to be the BBEG for your campaign) to avenge his fallen comrade (and get his sword back), and by the time he finds the BBEG and kills him, he's of a more appropriate level for the sword. That solution gives you a story hook, a non-"I just took it away" method, and a way for the paladin to achieve honor amongst his peers. My Paladin wont be alone. He's got backup. A level 4 wizard, a level 4 pirate, a level 4 rogue, and possibly a level 12 ranger. He also has a sheild and a bastard sword.
Ellie The Elf 01-29-05, 10:15 AM	Personally, I'd chalk it down to experience, and let the paladin keep his sword. You can always reduce treasure a bit and increase CRs slightly for the next few adventures to compensate :) Otherwise, talk to the player about it- I have a couple of players in my group who've nerfed their abiliities/items at various points because they were worried they were going to overshadow the rest of the group- and they asked me if they could do this, without any prompting from me. I even had a player who stopped playing an archer because the character was killing everything in sight and nobody else had much to do- but then I've also had the opposite, a player whose min-maxing and refusal to tone it down so the rest of the party weren't just spectators ended up with him being asked to leave the group. So how that'll work really depends on the player. My DMing mistakes include allowing players to reduce stats as well as increase them with point buy- I wound up with one character (a barbarian) who had no mental stat above six and 18s in str, dex and con :eek: And I gave a high level (around 15th) bard-sorc a modified rod of wonder which could be used to randomly cast various low level spells at will, with a high chance of suffering mishaps. Thereafter, she used the rod in every round of every combat despite the fact this made her pretty much useless- I had the other players begging me to take the rod away in the end... Ellie.
MasterRookie 01-29-05, 11:34 AM	While I apreciate all your input and think you have many promising Idea's I feel mine best fits the campain that I've created. I have taken some Ideas for the sword to be returned at a higher level so here's what I'll do. Once the sword is broken the player will no doubt think to gather the shards and have it reforged. When this happens the masterforge will inform them that he weapon is repaired but it's magical energys have disapated. They may be slowly restored through the blood of the wicked that are slain by the ritious. Other then that its a plus 2 longsword until the abilitys are slowly earned.
RASVIMofIO 01-29-05, 11:51 AM	Is the paladin playing true lawful good? If not the problem is solved. The sword is only plus 2 till an atonement restores the paladin. Make the quest something that will not be filled to the level you want this sword. That solves it and no thief no breaking no taking away just the rules. Your in service.
MasterRookie 01-31-05, 10:46 AM	Nope he's playing pure as driven snow.
Vharuck 01-31-05, 10:57 AM	Maybe it can be stolen by the BBEG himself, and this gives the paladin a good reason to hate and hunt that sucker down!
clarkvalentine 01-31-05, 11:03 AM	Turn this into a quest, a test of faith for the paladin. Have the paladin find out that the sword itself is stolen property, its rightful owners a Holy Temple in a far off land. Make up some amazing backstory. Arrange for him to find out that the sword is actually Lightbringer, a storied blade of ancient legend. Millennia ago, in a desperate battle against impossible odds, Lightbringer was wielded by the legendary hero Tor Demonbane, who with it carved swaths of destruction through an invading army of infernals. In the final stages of battle, Tor sacrificed himself to destroy the king of the invaders, imprisoning him in a binding spell of immense power. The sword's presence in the Temple is actually part of this spell, and if it is not soon returned to its sacred sheath hung above the altar, a terrible demonic spirit will break free. We can't have that, now, can we? Perhaps he also discovers that a substantial reward is being offered to the person or people who return the sword. Nothing individually as powerful as a Holy Avenger, but each member of the party, including the paladin, can expect something pretty nifty. If your paladin takes his vows seriously, he'll want to return it to its rightful owners, and hopefully the rest of the party will want to go along, for the reward if nothing else. Of course, getting to this temple is a three or four session long adventure in itself. Maybe throw lots of neutrally-aligned theives etc. at them, trying to steal the sword, but nothing that plays dfirectly to the Holy Avenger's strengths. This lets your paladin make use of his fun toy for an adventure or two, but also voluntarily give it up when he's done with it.
xann 01-31-05, 02:39 PM	"The most important thing to remember is that these things happen to almost all DMs in the early stages. We get impatient for our PCs to be Super-Heroic and pump them up too fast. We forget that the struggle to get there is really what makes a campaign memorable." true that!!!! my first campaign i gave away so much magic i totaly lost track of what everyone had, so setting up adventures became quite difficult when the whole party can fly, multipal bag of tricks an so forth...
Thoronmir 01-31-05, 02:39 PM	It may be too late to chime in, but rigging a fight against an overpowering foe with the result predetermined is a bad idea. You’d be better off just talking to the player and getting his input. If I was in his position, I’d realize that the sword was too powerful for my level and I’d accept a simple nerfing of the item. In fact, I’ve done so several times with various characters when DMs have concluded that the party had received too much treasure over the course of a few adventures. I'd say my biggest mistake as a new DM was the same one you're risking in this case ... not trusting my players to place the game's best interest over their own.
MasterRookie 01-31-05, 03:50 PM	It may be too late to chime in, but rigging a fight against an overpowering foe with the result predetermined is a bad idea. You’d be better off just talking to the player and getting his input. If I was in his position, I’d realize that the sword was too powerful for my level and I’d accept a simple nerfing of the item. In fact, I’ve done so several times with various characters when DMs have concluded that the party had received too much treasure over the course of a few adventures. I'd say my biggest mistake as a new DM was the same one you're risking in this case ... not trusting my players to place the game's best interest over their own. Oh the fight won't be rigged. Its just the enemy has a vorpal sword and the ability to cast true strike. If my friends character doesn't like his neck then he can feel free to save his sword.
Thoronmir 01-31-05, 04:19 PM	Oh the fight won't be rigged. Its just the enemy has a vorpal sword and the ability to cast true strike. If my friends character doesn't like his neck then he can feel free to save his sword.Unless there’s a scenario in which the Paladin won’t be forced to make that choice, the fight is, in fact, rigged. Aside from the overwhelming odds against the party, please feel free to explain the maneuver you have in mind for the climax. The BBEG swings for the Paladin’s head and the Paladin must decide whether to take the blow or risk his weapon. You’re essentially giving the Paladin a chance to parry the strike, with the condition that the strike becomes a sundering chance for the NPC. From your description, it sounds as if you’ve already decided the result of the sunder attempt. People complain on this site all the time about DMs who “cheat” … DMs who ignore the rules whenever it suits their purpose. I’m not saying you can’t decide that such a maneuver is possible in your world, but you’d better be prepared to explain how. Also, once a DM uses something like this against the party, expect the party to use it against the NPCs. I enjoy good theatre, but I won’t contort the combat rules for dramatic purposes. I prefer to use the rules to enhance the drama. In this case, why even bother running the encounter since you know how it will end? The only uncertainty seems to be whether the Paladin will choose his head or his sword. Just ask the player which way he wants things to go and tell him what happened. But the way you’re setting up things, it’s just not roleplaying. Finally, I still encourage you to talk to the player. If I was pushed into this encounter (which reeks of railroading), I’d be one pizzed off Paladin and I’d likely walk out of the campaign if you did this to me without explaining why beforehand.
ShadowDragon8685 01-31-05, 05:11 PM	I would walk if you pulled something like that. Just up and out of your game, and to heck with you. Unless we were gaming at my place, in which case I'd just stand up, bugger off to play Diablo II, and tell everyone they can find a new venue next week. That's really lame-tastic. Look, how about this? You made a mistake. deal with it. Let the Paladin feel all hot-crap and ass-kicking and heroic. Give the other players some similar swantastic gear, and then simply let there be a dearth of magical stuff until they've filled the gap. Or, how about this, ask them if they LIKE playing in a high-magic game. If they do, problem SOLVED. Just let 'em continue to play. Sometimes everyone wants to have a rampage with stuff they shoulden't have. DON'T, however, do that 'reforged with the blood of infidels' thing. That's just encouraging powergaming, and he'll probably turn on his evil radar and get smite-happy in an effort to get his sword back up to steam.
Elvish Presley 01-31-05, 05:16 PM	Heh, heh, I love the idea of having a bad guy with a Vorpal Sword trying to relieve the party of a Holy Avenger......how often haven't DMs planned for "everything", just to have their plans thwarted in the strangest ways? What happens if the bad guy is actually beaten, and the party now have TWO totally whacked weapons? :)
Talon Blackhart 01-31-05, 06:30 PM	I have to say that I would probably walk out if something like that happened to one of my characters, too. It just reeks of "fixed result" and "DM cheating". While I would normally say that a DM can't cheat, that is one case where i would say that it is cheating Also, vorpal doesn't automatically mean that you can sunder. As someone has said, unless you rig the battle, you're likely to have a TPK. Or, worse yet, your players will roll exceptionally well and they'll miraculously kill the BBG and then you'll have 2 overpowered weapons to deal with. Whether you say the battle will be fair or not, you're saying as well that the paladin has no real choice (block a swing and sunder a weapon or lose your head). That makes it a not-fair battle in this case. Are you going to give the paladin a chance to dodge (since that's part of AC?) or avoid the swing? Are you going to set a DC for the sunder attempt, and allow the Holy Avenger a save? Or are you arbitrarily going to say that as soon as the BBG swings the paladin can either swing his sword or be hit in the neck? If you run it the way you say you're going to, and you only have 1 player quit, you'll be lucky (IMO). But, it's your campaign. Do what you will, as none of us can stop you.
MasterRookie 01-31-05, 10:25 PM	yeah see you don't know my friends. He really wouldn't care that much if I smash his sword. He'll be a little bumbed but he knew it was coming. He did the same to me with a masterwork katana x2 on my first game. He also won't go smite happy he gains back abilitys by level not by kill. Everyone wants to level up. Its not different then a wizard leveling up to reach that new spell of his. Just asking him to arbitraraly give it up may solve gaming problems but it create's a plot hole. Not to mention its the easy anti climactic way to go. Who cares if I temperarily adjust the rules for some drama. Its Role playing not Roll playing. Half the time I just throw together rules to save time. For major battles I just rolled a D20 and made stuff up. My party will be used to arbitrary rules. Besides If what I'm going to do is cheating its cheating in my friends favor. If I didn't give him the option to parry He'd die. So he should be glad I saved his life and broke his sword.
MasterRookie 01-31-05, 10:30 PM	I have to say that I would probably walk out if something like that happened to one of my characters, too. It just reeks of "fixed result" and "DM cheating". While I would normally say that a DM can't cheat, that is one case where i would say that it is cheating Also, vorpal doesn't automatically mean that you can sunder. As someone has said, unless you rig the battle, you're likely to have a TPK. Or, worse yet, your players will roll exceptionally well and they'll miraculously kill the BBG and then you'll have 2 overpowered weapons to deal with. Whether you say the battle will be fair or not, you're saying as well that the paladin has no real choice (block a swing and sunder a weapon or lose your head). That makes it a not-fair battle in this case. Are you going to give the paladin a chance to dodge (since that's part of AC?) or avoid the swing? Are you going to set a DC for the sunder attempt, and allow the Holy Avenger a save? Or are you arbitrarily going to say that as soon as the BBG swings the paladin can either swing his sword or be hit in the neck? If you run it the way you say you're going to, and you only have 1 player quit, you'll be lucky (IMO). But, it's your campaign. Do what you will, as none of us can stop you. ahem true strike. He critical hits automatically. Of coarse its not a fair fight. His oponent is virtually invincible. Thats the point. He'll decide to fight him out of his own hubris and faith in his weapon. I can just make the sword usable only by evil or cursed so only the BBEG can use it. Its logical. If the BBEG had a special sword made wouldn't he make it only for himself.
prawn 02-01-05, 09:32 AM	TLomon's idea was brilliant. I vote for using it. Prawn
MasterRookie 02-01-05, 09:41 AM	Its cleche and not fitting for my campain. Like I said I've worked it all out I don't need idea's anymore
clarkvalentine 02-01-05, 09:42 AM	ahem true strike. He critical hits automatically. No, True Strike adds 20 to the attack roll. It virtually guarantees a hit, but you still need to roll a 20 to score a critical threat.
Nimbus 02-01-05, 10:05 AM	Its cleche and not fitting for my campain. Like I said I've worked it all out I don't need idea's anymore That sort of attitude can be very dangerous for a DM. I advise thinking this through some more. The approach that you're planning means that you, the DM, will be cheating (insofar as a DM can cheat). At least, that is what the players will say. You're pitting the player against odds that he has no hope of beating. The player will realise this and your reputation in your group will take a durastic downturn. You will be lucky if your players don't just up and leave. Most of the DM's on this thread are expirienced and know what can happen. Listen to them and listen to their suggestions. They know what they're doing and the dangers of certain approaches. On the subject of mistakes made; my first time DMing I gave a +2 Heavy Mace of Disruption to a level three plaldin.
MasterRookie 02-01-05, 08:44 PM	I'm not pitting him against anyone. I'm simply going to let the player feel he can defeate the high level enemy through some subtle suggestion. And through pitting him against other lower level enemys against which he will completely own. He'll feel a sense of strength and when he hears of a chance to fight the high level foe he'll jump at it. That is if I know my friend. Also this is much better then simply having the sword stolen or making him obligated by his alignment to give it back. Atleast with my way the player will loose the weapon by his own folly. Anyway no matter how long you've DMed for you still don't know my campain or my friends. This friend in particular would not leave the game no matter what I did to his character. He doesn't take the game that seriously. None of my friends do. Its a casual game just for fun we don't get anoyed over stuff like this.
MasterRookie 02-01-05, 08:47 PM	I'm not pitting him against anyone. I'm simply going to let the player feel he can defeate the high level enemy through some subtle suggestion. And through pitting him against other lower level enemys against which he will completely own. He'll feel a sense of strength and when he hears of a chance to fight the high level foe he'll jump at it. That is if I know my friend. Also this is much better then simply having the sword stolen or making him obligated by his alignment to give it back. Atleast with my way the player will loose the weapon by his own folly. Anyway no matter how long you've DMed for you still don't know my campain or my friends. This friend in particular would not leave the game no matter what I did to his character. He doesn't take the game that seriously. None of my friends do. Its a casual game just for fun we don't get anoyed over stuff like this. I've already had an expenced DM admit that my Idea was better then his for the same problem. I've really got this one handled. I don't need any more suggestions at this time.
Andu 02-02-05, 05:52 AM	You can make it more climatic, maybe. Instead of a vorpal blade, give the BBEG an unholy avenger, a perfect twin (at least visually) of the holy avenger, and have a little story about it, like a powerful true neutral demigod had these two blades to smite his foes (LG and CE). He died during some random epic battle, and his swords were lost since then. The blade gradually changed and became attracted to each other (in the gravitic sense). When the BBEG learns that the holy twin was recovered, he rushed to get rid of this menace personnaly, not trusting anybody else to deal with such a danger to him. Of course he doesn't know (as nobody know) that when the two blades are unsheathed and within 30ft, an almost irresistible force (Strength DC 30 each round) will have them fly toward each other. When contact is made, the swords self disintegrate (think matter-antimatter) and a huge display of energy occur. As a reward, have the powerful energies permanently imbues the party... Ideas could be, the pal gain 1 additional smite per day, or gain the greater dispel ability but 1/week. And of course, the BBEG also received the energies... And now it's personal (he did lose an invaluable blade to the party, which might possibly have thwarted his current plans).
Thoronmir 02-02-05, 11:31 AM	Anyway no matter how long you've DMed for you still don't know my campain or my friends. This is the first thing you’ve said with which I agree. Still, though, you came to us strangers for advice on how to handle this issue. Now, because you don’t like our advice (or our critiques), you essentially tell us to shut up? If you read a few threads here you’ll learn that the only way to avoid differing opinions is to not post at all. Your reaction suggests that you’re a “rookie” at a lot of things. Do you really think it’s persuasive to cite “one experienced DM” who prefers your idea to his own? My guess is I’ve been playing D&D longer than you’ve been alive. While I don’t like to play the “experience” card too often (since anyone can have a good idea), the fact that your idea has been endorsed by someone who’s been DMing longer than you have means little. Likewise, the fact that I disagree with you means little. If your game is so “casual” then why put your players through such a needless exercise? Why on Earth waste their time just to gratify your own yen to tell this particular story? Like I said before, you’re not roleplaying any part of this scenario. Just ask the Paladin whether he wants to keep his head or his sword and tell him what happens. It’s a lot quicker. I won’t say a DM should never manipulate the players, but you’re risking your credibility as a DM for too small a reward. The time to play with the players’ minds is when there’s a bigger payoff down the road you want them to choose. Why expend that much capital for a predetermined, railroaded scenario that’s not even necessary? It’s important for players to believe that they always have control over their characters’ destinies. You’re depriving the Paladin of that control … and you’re doing it an extremely overt manner. You are needlessly imperiling your players’ trust. Back to the main point, you’re right. We don’t know your players or your game. Perhaps your players don’t really want to control their PCs and prefer for you to decide what happens to them. Maybe they enjoy remaining impotent pawns in whatever fable you’re scripting. I hope so. Because, once you go down this path, you’ll almost certainly return again and again to the solution of forcing PCs into specific scenarios rather than deal with your mistakes through communication and roleplaying.
Mumbling Rogue 02-02-05, 12:23 PM	The thread starter has already made his choice it seems, even though I personally like many of the other options better. But, a railroaded linear forced rigged path is soooo much more fun :rolleyes: I personally would have thieves steal it. It might be cliche or whatever, but it is only cliche in the first place because theft was common place. If the player doens't protect his sword, someone's gonna see the value of it and take it. Either way, good luck with it.
KP91 02-02-05, 01:19 PM	WotC had an article on this some time ago and how to get rid of magic items you don't want a PC to have. Get a dragon to have an ethereal filcher to take it. The dragon would rather have the treasure destroyed instead of someone else owning it. He sends an ethereal filcher to take it. PC's lose sword to disappearing foe.
MasterRookie 02-02-05, 03:03 PM	Okay hear we go with replys. Sword Idea: Sounds awsome but I don't want to steal the idea. Still think I'm controling the PC: Okay every NPC exept for one is going to say he can probably beat the BBEG. The other NPC's are actually comoners and morons who don't know what they're talking about. The One nonbeliver is actually an experienced paladin who was defeated (possibly by someone connected to the BBEG or the BBEG himself) And now acts as a wise old mentor to random travelers and such. The PC are going to think he's a crazy old hermit who doesn't know what he's talking about. The whole encounter will get rid of the sword and further the plot. It create's plenty of newer better conflicts. Also after reading through the rules I've found that the attacking weapons ability will allow me to have the fight within the rules. The more experienced enemy will no doubt toy with a low level enemy rather then simply kill him. Smash goes the sword. The old loon gave the Paladin a potion, telling him to drink it if he's in mortal peril. Of coarse no actual HP damage will be dealt by my enemy until the sword is destroyed. He may want to save the sword and drink the potion, but I'll try to keep him distracted enough to forget about it. See all of what goes wrong is the PC's fault. Now for everyone else who has advice. I'm not taking any more. I've firmly decided on this. I very well may end up not doing it if my PC makes good choices. And if it is a sucess and my PC gets ****** and leaves the party I'll tell you and you can all laugh and gloat and say "I told you so,". But until then your wasting your time trying to convince me to do something else. oh by the way. Fifteen years DMing Wow thats a long time.
Thoronmir 02-02-05, 03:23 PM	oh by the way. Fifteen years DMing Wow thats a long time.If that was directed toward me, it’s actually twenty-five years DMing. I assumed you were older. This revelation explains a lot. One thing you ought to learn about this Board. Threads can take on a life of their own. The fact that you’re no longer interested doesn’t mean we automatically stop discussing an issue. We all realize that you’ve made up your mind to railroad your players. Your latest dissertation on what the PCs “will think” makes that quite clear. But other novice DMs may read this thread seeking advice when they have similar problems. We’re only trying to warn them of the likely consequences of following your example.
MasterRookie 02-02-05, 03:47 PM	we shall see. 25 years DMing. quite a long time. I'm not sure If I'll ever DM that long. I doubt I'll still be playing DnD at age 40. Maby once in a while as some sort of family or reunion type thing, but I'll be well past my DnD hey day. anyway I seem to have lost what the term rail roading means. If it means forcing your players into a controled situation. You've failed to listen to what I've said. They have a choice to blow off the fight all together. Tell the commoners to screw off and that they don't have a clue what they're saying. But after killing boss NPC after boss NPC I simply don't expect that to be their sentiments. I expect them to want to go a step higher and atempt to slaughter this important foe ushering in the end of the camapain. They still control their fate. Its still their choice. If they decide to listen to random NPC's who are too caught up in the hope of a quick end to the war that they don't even think they'll get what they deserve. They've got as much a choice if not more as everyone elses ideas. Exept for just asking them for it. But that's just cheap. What happens you just pretend that whole part of the story never happened. I'd never let my player just undo one of his own mistakes because it suits him. Likewise I wont ask my players to simply let my undo my own. Thats just unfair.
mercurial67 02-02-05, 04:29 PM	There is actually a much simpler method of correcting this mistake. Under the cursed items listing there is one description of possible cursed items. Delusion: The user believes the item is what it appears to be, yet it actually has no magical power other than to deceive. The user is mentally fooled into thinking the item is functioning and cannot be convinced otherwise without the help of a remove curse spell. Problem solved. It is actually a CURSED sword which makes the user believe it is their most powerfull weapon. Let him apply everything he thinks it does. Oddly, all the creatures he fights have an AC 5 greater for him than everyone else. Oddly, every creature takes 5 less hp damage from hits (-10 on a crit). The spell resistance always seems to JUST fail and the greater dispel magic just never seems quite able to do the job. Anyone else watching him will wonder what the heck is going on. To him insist it is working. You could actually turn it into a VERY unique role playing twist. Remember, he doesn't have to keep the weapon, but until remove curse is cast he will always BELIEVE it works.
Thoronmir 02-02-05, 04:31 PM	we shall see. 25 years DMing. quite a long time. I'm not sure If I'll ever DM that long. I doubt I'll still be playing DnD at age 40. Maby once in a while as some sort of family or reunion type thing, but I'll be well past my DnD hey day.Not that it matters, but what do you enjoy about D&D now that you don't think you will when you're older? anyway I seem to have lost what the term rail roading means. If it means forcing your players into a controled situation. You've failed to listen to what I've said. They have a choice to blow off the fight all together.This is the first time in any of your posts you've used the word "choice" in relation to this scenario. However, I’ll add that rigging a situation so that the only way the PCs can avoid the predetermined event is for them to play contrary to their established characters is tantamount to removing “choice” from the encounter. “Railroading” can be accomplished with more subtlety than the DM just announcing that the Paladin is about to fight to BBEG. You’re manipulating the party into a scenario that they cannot possibly overcome. That is railroading. Like I said, unless there’s a way for the party to survive the encounter without losing the sword, you’re railroading them.They've got as much a choice if not more as everyone elses ideas. Exept for just asking them for it. But that's just cheap.Wrong. The players have more choice under my solution because I would let them know why a change is needed. I'd confess my mistake and ask their opinions regarding how they want me to fix it. The final decision is still mine, but I value my players enough to consult them.What happens you just pretend that whole part of the story never happened. I'd never let my player just undo one of his own mistakes because it suits him. Likewise I wont ask my players to simply let my undo my own. Thats just unfair.But that's exactly what you're doing ... making the players let you undo your mistake. Living with your mistake would mean letting the Paladin keep the sword ... and other posters have suggested scenarios for that to happen. As I've said, my first option would be nerf the sword into something of more suitable power. It wouldn't change what had happened in the campaign. The Dwarf found a sword, thought it was powerful, killed some stuff with it, but it turns out the sword wasn't so powerful after all. But, again, I wouldn't make this decision without explaining to the player why the change is necessary. EDIT: Now that's a great suggestion Mercurial. :)
MasterRookie 02-02-05, 05:51 PM	They can indeed defeate the enemy. Its will take hard work and careful planning but it can be done. They remain within their character's personas whether they accept the fight or not. There are plenty of outcomes for the fight. The PC's Manage to defeate the enemy trough brilliant tactics or circumspect attack. The PC's decide that they aren't ready for the encounter and decide to wait. The PC's could defeate the enemy but lose the sword. The PC's could defeate the enemy and be forced to retreat. It is possible that one or all the PC's will die. I'm not manipulating their characters in the way that say forcing a Paladin to give up his sword because the law of the church demands it. Thats way more railroading then what I'm doing. They've got the choice I just don't think they'll take it. I may be underestimating my PC's, if they are victorious or find their way around the encounter. Then they deserve to keep the sword for making a wise decision or using brilliant tactics. This scenario may never even have the chance to come up. My campain can have tons of coarses that my PC's will take. I just don't think they'll take the smart way around and they'll charge head first into a dangerous situation. Unwisely I've already told two PC's about this plan. I'm hopeing they'll keep the OCI out of the game and play their characters. If not then they'll probably just save them selves and leave the Paladin to his own fate. Final points 1. My idea sounds more fun for everyone and it wont require out of character disscussion to solve the problem 2. I can't imagin any of my friends ever quiting the campain over one frifilous item, and if they would then I don't want a friend that *****es like that. I'll tell you how it goes.