Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azezel 01-24-06, 07:24 PM	Today my character died. It's a pity - I liked him - in fact he was one of my all-time favourites. The party was figthing a Drow Sorceress and a group of Human Warriors. The Drow casts fireball and my char makes his save. Later - after a little healing, the drow casts another fireball - my char fails his save and is knocked to -8. Our rouge/spellthief heals him, but only to 13 hp Another fireball - another failed save, -10 hp - death. Here's the thing - When the DM made the Drow cast that last fireball he knew my char was on 13hp, knew that my char has an awful reflex save and knew that the fireball would very likely kill my char. The DM could have made the Drow do something else - but he did not - he played the drow perfectly - she fireballed me, the rouge and the fighter - killing me outright. Was I sad to loose such a treasured character, damn straight, but here's the thing: I thakned the DM for not pulling his punch. That's what makes a good game. It wasn't a heroic death - it wasn't even a necessary one, we did not actually have to fight this Drow - nevertheless the DM did the right thing in killing my char. I suggest you do the right thing too, next time you are in that situation...
ezogoul 01-24-06, 08:51 PM	I applaud both you and your DM. Both of you acted the way a player and GM should act in such a situation. I have been on both sides of the screen and often am disapointed in my GM or my fellow players. Gm's make mistakes, they can send a party against something that they cannot handle, and they simply don't know it, and don't know that they need to turn tail and run. This is the only time a GM should pull punches. Pc's DIE! it's unfortunate, but that is part of the game, and it is a game. Too often do players throw a fit when their thirteenth two-weapon fighting elf dies. Thank you for sharing your experience, and for providing everyone with a good example of PC death, that didn't result in everyone needing to break out the cheese.
Setzertrancer 01-24-06, 09:48 PM	I applaud your courage many of the PCs in my games would have died if I had not decreased the damage a little or once when we had a house rule of instant kill on a triple natural 20 instead of killing the pc I criticalled instead. I don't tell my players this and when they would have died I normally shave a few hp of damage to give them a chance to heal. I know I shouldn't do this but I'm worried my players will go "screw this I'm not starting again". I know I should but I don't want my players quitting.
Frodo Lives 01-24-06, 11:40 PM	Good for you and the DM! :cheer: :cheer: More players should deal with a character death more maturely, and more DMs should realize that the threat of death is a necessary part of the game. Just wondering what level your character was? It sounds like you were playing him for a while. Is being raised an option? You lose a level, but if you like this character it is worth the hit to keep playing him. After all, most new characters start at least one level lower than the previous one anyway so you really have nothing to lose if it is an option.
wonlee76 01-25-06, 12:22 AM	As a DM I really hate killing PCs. But one of my players reminded me what one of my jobs as a DM is. My job is to challenge the PCs and this includes trying to kill them (or said another way, a challenge with no chance of failure/death is no challenge at all). Plus I make raise dead/ress/true ress pretty much available in large cities if you got the gold to pay for the costly material component. So all in all, its nice to see another player taking it on the chin when his PC dies vs. throwing a tantrum about how unfair the PC's death is.
Morbid 01-25-06, 12:51 AM	Wow... I saw the "I died...." then "The DM played the character perfectly..." and I was expecting to hear a BGM session on how he hates his DM and the DM is stupid, and I'm wetting myself with the tears and such... Good to see there are still true gamers out there.
kraegor 01-25-06, 01:29 AM	Well my opinion of this is as follows: The DM allowed you to die.. fine.. but it comes a stipulation.. did he leave you a way out? Was there physically enough time for you to leave the room, drink a healing potion, or somehow escape the big baddy? Also, was the introduction of the big baddy the DM's or did you go after him specifically? Was there any warnings this guy could squish you like an ant? If the answers to these both are "no" then the DM sucks, he killed you outright when you had no chance to escape, deal, barter or somehow get the best of the situation. Now, if the DM left you a round or two to get situated once you where up to 13 hps, and you had a chance to escape, or run, or dive for cover, then yes, it is your fault. Suck it up. Now also, the DM should give you a chance to be ressurected somehow unless you where just.. totally insane (soloing a lich at level 2 by yourself or something). Any good DM will usually allow you to bring back to life a treasured character, even if the party has to sell your +2 longsword to do it. if he is NOT allowing you to do this, then you can be sure he disliked the character for some reason. yes, its just that simple.
Azezel 01-25-06, 11:26 AM	Raising my char would be dificult - whilst the fight happened right inside a big cathedral (which you'de think would be convinient for raising) the Drow and her minions had already finished off the clerics of the cathedral - and the city around the cathedral is overrun by the undead (oh yes). In any event resurection is not likely to happen - my char was a Druid and had been vocal on several occasions about his dislike for resurection - either true or undead - so it is unlileythe other characters in the party will try - it would be against his wishes. There were warnings that this fight would be tough - for one thing there was a Drow Sorcerres and a Drow fighter and a dozen Humans - so we knew they meant business - and we did have the opertunity to run - but it would not have been in character - they were holding the wife of our fighter hostage. The best part is that my Druid had already spent all his magic healing NPC's who had been trying to defend the cathedral - and then the last of his spells casting Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person on the party fighter (who it has to be said - made good use of the results). Thank you for the nice things you said about me and the DM.
prawn 01-25-06, 12:02 PM	I pull my punches as a DM, and I won't kill anyone unless it is a dramatic death that fits into the story. For example, I won't let an Orc guard kill someone, so I might change the damage from a crit from 20 to 10, but once the party is fighting the big bad guy, he'll kill as many of the characters as he can. For example, in another thread I discussed how my party fought a small dragon, which I nerfed somewhat, before fighting the big bad guy, whom I played for all he was worth. I pulled my punches somewhat in the first combat, but in the second fight, the party fought an evil high priest, and he tried to F them up!
Yabanjin 01-25-06, 12:02 PM	Thank you for the nice things you said about me and the DM. I've been stewing about whether or not to post something about kraegor's comments, but suddenly I feel no need! :clap: Kudos! :clap: I couldn't really add anything better than what had already been posted, but I might as well offer my congratulations on a game well played. Nicely done.
Bruunwald 01-25-06, 12:50 PM	It's important to note that the DM DID NOT do the right thing by "killing [your] character." He did the right thing BY PLAYING HIS NPC WELL. His NPC killed your PC. This did not happen because the DM knew you were down to 13 hp, and it did not happen because his NPC somehow knew this information (that would be metagaming). It happened because he thought that this was an appropriate action under the drow's circumstances and regarding her nature. That's a very important distinction. You have to be careful on these boards. There are some DMs who have demonstrated that they believe that the purpose of the DM is to make sure the PCs die. That is not the purpose of the DM. NPCs who show mercy, take prisoners or are simply disinterested in fighting are perfectly fair and valid alternatives, if it fits their personality or nature to do these things. And yes, merciless is the common denominator between drow, so it was probably the right call. Now, if some Lawful Good knight kills your next character just because the DM happens to know you have the least hp at the moment, you'll know you're in trouble.
geekling 01-25-06, 01:14 PM	I rather have to join in on the singing this particular DM's praise. (Although Azezel - you're not exactly bad at that DMing gig yourself ;)) Now also, the DM should give you a chance to be ressurected somehow unless you where just.. totally insane (soloing a lich at level 2 by yourself or something). Any good DM will usually allow you to bring back to life a treasured character, even if the party has to sell your +2 longsword to do it. Even if the opportunity to ressurect this character would present itself, which is very unlikely in their current situation. His companions won't. (Oh in case you haven't worked it out, I'm another player in this particular game, the one with the rogue/spellthief.) The way Azezel have played his druid... well, it's been perfectly clear that the he was very much opposed to ressurection of any kind. Why, the stink he's been kicking up over what happened to the gnome. :P She wouldn't dare even suggest it. There may well be much wailing, sack cloth and ashes, gnashing of teeth, and of course a very moving funeral of some sort, but stay dead he will. However much we will miss him. :( (So, have you decided on your new character yet? Are we seeing yet another one of 'their lot' joining up with us, like after Hugo's death?)
celtredleg 01-25-06, 01:16 PM	To echo Brunnwald,the outstanding thing was the true to charecter NPC, and the mature player who delt with that. IMO the monsters or NPCs should always be played the way the would act, regardless of what happens to the players. Not all of them of course should be kill them all types. Of course as so many players seem to believe the only way to win is to wipe out the opponent, so it follows that many NPCs will do the same.
Anathema 01-25-06, 01:30 PM	Raising my char would be dificult ... my char was a Druid and had been vocal on several occasions about his dislike for resurection - either true or undead - so it is unlileythe other characters in the party will try - it would be against his wishes. Wouldn't reincarnation be an option? edit: One time I had a human priest (2nd ed.) that I made as large as I could .. and he was killed and reincarnated as a pixie. He used his old one handed heavy mace in 2 hands from then on. Good stuff!
ukjester 01-25-06, 02:39 PM	Well my opinion of this is as follows: The DM allowed you to die.. fine.. but it comes a stipulation.. did he leave you a way out? Was there physically enough time for you to leave the room, drink a healing potion, or somehow escape the big baddy? Hmm, four of us (plus three church guards we'd healed up from the previous fight, but they weren't going to be much use), against a drow sorceress, a drow fighter in funky armour, and about 8 men at arms. I think the way out was not to start the fight. We also had a couple of chances to surrender, but when the red mist flows... On the other hand, our meatshild's wife, a Knight who's been very good to us, and a cleric held hostage, and a Hexblade who really dosn't like these particular Drow, probably means not fighting was a very slim possibility. Also, was the introduction of the big baddy the DM's or did you go after him specifically? Was there any warnings this guy could squish you like an ant? She was telling us as much before we attacked. Not that anybody was listening. If the answers to these both are "no" then the DM sucks, he killed you outright when you had no chance to escape, deal, barter or somehow get the best of the situation. Life's just not fair sometimes, is it? Now also, the DM should give you a chance to be ressurected somehow unless you where just.. totally insane (soloing a lich at level 2 by yourself or something). Any good DM will usually allow you to bring back to life a treasured character, even if the party has to sell your +2 longsword to do it. if he is NOT allowing you to do this, then you can be sure he disliked the character for some reason. yes, its just that simple. No, it's as simple as the DM making it perfectly clear that resurrection is incredibly rare in this setting. If you go into any fight, there's a chance you could get unlucky, that's what happened.
Sulaco 01-25-06, 04:01 PM	I suggest you do the right thing too, next time you are in that situation... Yes, and the "right thing" can and will be different in every scenario and every group. Remember "Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum, What might be right for you, may not be right for some..."
Azezel 01-25-06, 06:00 PM	Re-incanration is a possibility I suppose - it's a Druid spell and my PC never said anything specifically against it - whether the party is willing to try it I don't know. It's unlikely they have ever heard of the spell - and since, if memory serves, it has a time limit of seven days it would mean abandoning pursuit Drow (who escaped, just) and leaving the city to be eaten by zombies. Even assuming they could track down a high-level Druid (there is one floating around, but he has only been aluded to breifly and no-one knows where he is at the moment). In any event - the purpose of this thread is served. The DM played his NPC correctly he wasn't out to get me. And hopefuly I've reminded m'fellow board readers that most players will not throw a tantrum when a DM plays fair.
Plinglebob 01-25-06, 06:19 PM	Personally, I'm really scared I'm gonna kill the PC's. Its partly because it's my 1st time DM'ing and so scared of making things too hard. Other reason is because I've been a PC in multiple games and it has become a running joke in our group that, no matter what happens, my characters will always drop dead. Suppose with that sort of curse, I could send a lvl 20 against the PCs and they'd win :)
Anathema 01-25-06, 06:32 PM	Re-incanration is a possibility I suppose - it's a Druid spell and my PC never said anything specifically against it - whether the party is willing to try it I don't know. It's unlikely they have ever heard of the spell - and since, if memory serves, it has a time limit of seven days it would mean abandoning pursuit Drow (who escaped, just) and leaving the city to be eaten by zombies. Even assuming they could track down a high-level Druid (there is one floating around, but he has only been aluded to breifly and no-one knows where he is at the moment). In any event - the purpose of this thread is served. The DM played his NPC correctly he wasn't out to get me. And hopefuly I've reminded m'fellow board readers that most players will not throw a tantrum when a DM plays fair. This sounds like the beginnings of a truly memorable and epic quest. Can the other players find the druid in time to reincarnate? Does the druid even exist? Can the players do this AND still stop the Drow insurgents? Find out, NEXT TIME, on "as the DM turns". :D I just rolled a d100 for fun, and wound up reincarnating as a gnome. A gnome druid! Now that's funny. I love how they updated the reincarnation spell to limit it to only humanoids. 2e didn't, I was really nervous when I had one of my characters reincarnated. Now you can be a bugbear, dwarf, elf, gnoll (wee!), gnome, goblin, half-elf, half-orc, halfling, human, kobold, lizardfolk, orc, OR troglodyte. Sounds like a blast of a game in the making to me! :plotting:
Fenris78 01-25-06, 06:46 PM	My last character death was my beloved psychotic 12th Level Dwarven Fighter/Barbarian called Thask Hammerfell with a phobia of cave-ins (I'd played him from 4th up). He'd already died once at the hands of Shadows, been resurrected and then after having his leg ripped off and replaced with a demon leg (long story, don't ask) ended up getting killed by some nasty vampire lord. Ability/level drain attacks really suck when you're the only tank in the group :tantrum: Anyway, I chose not to have him res-ed again as I figured he'd had his time. I know the DM had fudged a few things in the past for me as he liked the character, and I don't blame him for the death. Some time you die from stupidity, some times you die just from plain bad-luck. Incidentally, if we'd known at the time you could "withdraw" from combat rather than just turning tail and legging it, there's a good chance he'd have made it! C'est la vie :D What's the general stance on higher-level character death? In theory once you get past a certain point you could almost get ressurrected every time you are killed. I don't really like that. If it's a really favorite character I might get it done once or twice but after that it doesn't really feel right anymore. From other games, some of my lasting memories are of character deaths, e.g. my character in CyberPunk taking a fatal head shot just after saying "Don't worry, I have my lucky bandana on".
Setzertrancer 01-25-06, 10:38 PM	Despite what I said earlier, i have killed a pc i just forgot about it, since it wasn't a very valiant death. It was the party rogue and he was killed by a trap. Not a very original death. The remaining pc had to drag him out of the dungeon and had to figure out a way to get him over a chasm. In the end he got raised for 500gp back in town and it was decided that his experience penalty would be divided and taken from all the players since we don't like having different lvls in our games. So this was a time I didn't pull a punch after all "all praise me". I'm kidding.