A group with almost no magic. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A group with almost no magic. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
I_Poke_The_Darkness
12-11-07, 12:46 AM Hey I am running a campaign and my PCs are not taking caster levels. There are 3 PCs, and we are using the gestalt rules. My hope was that by letting them use the gestalt one of them would take some casting but all of them took fighter. I have never run a low magic campaign before so what needs to be changed? I am trying not to have a NPC tag along, so if anyone has any other ideas or advice please let me know. Thanks
The are as fallows
ranger 5/ fighter 5, he is a bow ranger
druid 5/ fighter 5, he is going for wild shape to tank, he is not into being a caster
barbarian 5/ fighter 5, he is going for the frenzied berserker, need I say more?
Nall_The_Azure_Guardian
12-11-07, 01:52 AM Well, first, its not like the druid can't heal and there is always UMD

We actually had a non-gestalt game that had no casters for a while

A low level pali, a monk, and a barbarian. The DM just threw fighter crap at us and good fun was had by all. We managed to have three kinds of fighter and just had some really amazing fights and even closer calls. By the time we got up to where healing was an issue beyond a potion of CLW, the pali could use wands (as could your druid) and Lay on Hands so those issues went away.

Somewhere there's a feat that lets druids spontaneous cure, i think Complete Divine maybe, if your player doesn't want to be a caster, taking that feat could seriously knock down their resting time - they may need that especially with the berserker involved or the druid version (if there is one sorry my memory is shot right now) of calm emotions.

Beyond that, just don't ever throw more than one wizard at them at a time and everything should work itself out. If it becomes a problem they can try to find their own solutions, at first I picked up leadership adding a cleric, then we eventually added another player who is a beguiler, we're still low on magic, but its honestly been the most enjoyable campaign I've ever played in.

Just don't throw a 1000 situations at them they can't deal with, ie needing to detect magic or lies, or be invisible, beyond the recourses and preparations they could have.

If the group plans well this could actually be fantastic for everybody there are lots of mundane ways to solve problems too.
kuonji
12-11-07, 01:53 AM I wouldn't change anything.

Let them live or die by their choices. If they die they will learn a lesson (hopefully) if they live it will be because of good tactical choices.

Also, as a side note, you're entering dangerous ground allowing PrCs and gestalt.

Still, that's a pretty sad collection of gestalt. The only decent one is the druid/fighter, but since hes basically foregoing spellcasting, he fails too.
Empirate
12-11-07, 09:03 AM Yeah right, because there's only one way to play D&D and you know what it is: Playing a caster. Haven't you received the notification? You can't fail - there's no way to lose D&D!
Great advice on the OP's problem, by the way.

Returning to topic myself:
To me it sounds like you already know that your job as a DM is making the game fun regardless of class choices. Well, you have a group of strong guys, none of whom will shine in social, skill-use, or tactically tricky situations. The Druid/Fighter will probably still cast some spells now and then, and as others have mentioned, wands will take care of healing issues.
So you have to model your campaign around three guys that basically can beat stuff up, and take a beating themselves. I'd try a military campaign if I were you: Casters can rather mess up one's image of how medieval warfare is supposed to look like. That problem is a non-issue in your group. Furthermore, each character can make a contribution in stand-up melees.
Why not incorporate them all into the same brute-force elite company, where they can get some action, be sent to the most intensely fought-over spots of every battle, be called upon to seize and hold an objective for a long time... After a while, their commander will see their great potential and transfer them to a special tactics unit, where they can be outfitted with magical gear and given caster support to go on more complicated missions: Sabotage, Espionage, Assassination, Surgical Strikes, behind-the-lines stuff basically.
T3hB4k4
12-11-07, 01:09 PM I DM the group Nall is referring to so I thought I'd give my perspective from the other side of the table.

Honestly this type of game I found to be more fun. It did require me to tweak the encounters I threw at them a little but for the most part I didn't do anything different. There was a certain story effect that this had too, magic felt like something more earned if that makes any sense. Fights were actually a lot more fun when the arcane spellcaster or cleric weren't there to just end it in 2 seconds (ala fireball or flamestrike, etc). The group we have now is actually none too different from the original set up. We have a dual-classed rog/wiz and the paladin has a cleric cohort, but the mage doesn't use his magic as often as he could and the cleric exists as a heal-stick in between fights.

So really if the DM is willing to tweak things a bit these groups are great fun.
Count Arioch the 28th
12-11-07, 01:34 PM Eww, those are foul gestalt combos.

There are only two solutions for gestalt: Either gestalt two casters, or have at least full BaB and 6 skill points per level.

I'd say just have the PCs face other melee centric groups. Anyone relying on magic or ranged fighting will own your group pretty hard.
Johnathan_Vagabond
12-11-07, 02:20 PM Sounds like alot of fun.

Be wary of opponents that require spell-like functions to beat. Incorporeal opponents spring to mind. Be careful with anti-melee monsters. Gelatinous Cubes, frost worms, chaos beasts ravids, and thoqqua are examples of creatures that damage anyone who touches them, or pose a serious risk to opponents within close range. Also be careful when targeting the Will or Reflex saves.

When dealing with ranged units and casters, leave some terrain of a sort for them to take shelter behind. Forests are good, because you can move from tree to tree in order to gain cover.

Watch out for flying creatures, although with their BAB they should all fair decently with ranged weapons, especially the ranger, and druid may be able to turn into something that flies. You might recommend to your barbarian that he use reach weapons to maximize their efficiency, Range, Reach, and Close combats.

It shouldn't actually be that tough on you. And I second the idea of a military campaign campaign (two words, different reference). Begin with a couple skirmishes and battles and as they go along they become responsible for handling special tasks that keep the army moving forward; defeating nightmarish creatures that steal soldiers in the night, taking out advanced scouting teams, storming small emplacements, slaying a cave dwelling wizard whose magic is slowing their progress. You could really have a rocking Conan-esque campaign here. And, being a part of the army means that they have a supply of healing, the only need survive the trek back to the main encampment.
bloodtalon
12-11-07, 06:45 PM do a military one
i have done a few with no magic
they can be more fun then ones with magic
and when i say no magic i mean 0% magic
not magic items or nothing
makes the players think more and plan what they will do
I_Poke_The_Darkness
12-12-07, 01:49 AM Thanks for the advice, without much for casters I was thinking of a horror survival campaign, I know I am being lazy for not looking myself but do any of you know any good threads on that? The idea for the military campaign is also great, I will have to find some way of combining the two. should not be too hard, tell them to hold this fort then overwhelm it with undead or send them in to a underground city as a small assault team (resident evil). :devil:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
I_Poke_The_Darkness 12-11-07, 12:46 AM	Hey I am running a campaign and my PCs are not taking caster levels. There are 3 PCs, and we are using the gestalt rules. My hope was that by letting them use the gestalt one of them would take some casting but all of them took fighter. I have never run a low magic campaign before so what needs to be changed? I am trying not to have a NPC tag along, so if anyone has any other ideas or advice please let me know. Thanks The are as fallows ranger 5/ fighter 5, he is a bow ranger druid 5/ fighter 5, he is going for wild shape to tank, he is not into being a caster barbarian 5/ fighter 5, he is going for the frenzied berserker, need I say more?
Nall_The_Azure_Guardian 12-11-07, 01:52 AM	Well, first, its not like the druid can't heal and there is always UMD We actually had a non-gestalt game that had no casters for a while A low level pali, a monk, and a barbarian. The DM just threw fighter crap at us and good fun was had by all. We managed to have three kinds of fighter and just had some really amazing fights and even closer calls. By the time we got up to where healing was an issue beyond a potion of CLW, the pali could use wands (as could your druid) and Lay on Hands so those issues went away. Somewhere there's a feat that lets druids spontaneous cure, i think Complete Divine maybe, if your player doesn't want to be a caster, taking that feat could seriously knock down their resting time - they may need that especially with the berserker involved or the druid version (if there is one sorry my memory is shot right now) of calm emotions. Beyond that, just don't ever throw more than one wizard at them at a time and everything should work itself out. If it becomes a problem they can try to find their own solutions, at first I picked up leadership adding a cleric, then we eventually added another player who is a beguiler, we're still low on magic, but its honestly been the most enjoyable campaign I've ever played in. Just don't throw a 1000 situations at them they can't deal with, ie needing to detect magic or lies, or be invisible, beyond the recourses and preparations they could have. If the group plans well this could actually be fantastic for everybody there are lots of mundane ways to solve problems too.
kuonji 12-11-07, 01:53 AM	I wouldn't change anything. Let them live or die by their choices. If they die they will learn a lesson (hopefully) if they live it will be because of good tactical choices. Also, as a side note, you're entering dangerous ground allowing PrCs and gestalt. Still, that's a pretty sad collection of gestalt. The only decent one is the druid/fighter, but since hes basically foregoing spellcasting, he fails too.
Empirate 12-11-07, 09:03 AM	Yeah right, because there's only one way to play D&D and you know what it is: Playing a caster. Haven't you received the notification? You can't fail - there's no way to lose D&D! Great advice on the OP's problem, by the way. Returning to topic myself: To me it sounds like you already know that your job as a DM is making the game fun regardless of class choices. Well, you have a group of strong guys, none of whom will shine in social, skill-use, or tactically tricky situations. The Druid/Fighter will probably still cast some spells now and then, and as others have mentioned, wands will take care of healing issues. So you have to model your campaign around three guys that basically can beat stuff up, and take a beating themselves. I'd try a military campaign if I were you: Casters can rather mess up one's image of how medieval warfare is supposed to look like. That problem is a non-issue in your group. Furthermore, each character can make a contribution in stand-up melees. Why not incorporate them all into the same brute-force elite company, where they can get some action, be sent to the most intensely fought-over spots of every battle, be called upon to seize and hold an objective for a long time... After a while, their commander will see their great potential and transfer them to a special tactics unit, where they can be outfitted with magical gear and given caster support to go on more complicated missions: Sabotage, Espionage, Assassination, Surgical Strikes, behind-the-lines stuff basically.
T3hB4k4 12-11-07, 01:09 PM	I DM the group Nall is referring to so I thought I'd give my perspective from the other side of the table. Honestly this type of game I found to be more fun. It did require me to tweak the encounters I threw at them a little but for the most part I didn't do anything different. There was a certain story effect that this had too, magic felt like something more earned if that makes any sense. Fights were actually a lot more fun when the arcane spellcaster or cleric weren't there to just end it in 2 seconds (ala fireball or flamestrike, etc). The group we have now is actually none too different from the original set up. We have a dual-classed rog/wiz and the paladin has a cleric cohort, but the mage doesn't use his magic as often as he could and the cleric exists as a heal-stick in between fights. So really if the DM is willing to tweak things a bit these groups are great fun.
Count Arioch the 28th 12-11-07, 01:34 PM	Eww, those are foul gestalt combos. There are only two solutions for gestalt: Either gestalt two casters, or have at least full BaB and 6 skill points per level. I'd say just have the PCs face other melee centric groups. Anyone relying on magic or ranged fighting will own your group pretty hard.
Johnathan_Vagabond 12-11-07, 02:20 PM	Sounds like alot of fun. Be wary of opponents that require spell-like functions to beat. Incorporeal opponents spring to mind. Be careful with anti-melee monsters. Gelatinous Cubes, frost worms, chaos beasts ravids, and thoqqua are examples of creatures that damage anyone who touches them, or pose a serious risk to opponents within close range. Also be careful when targeting the Will or Reflex saves. When dealing with ranged units and casters, leave some terrain of a sort for them to take shelter behind. Forests are good, because you can move from tree to tree in order to gain cover. Watch out for flying creatures, although with their BAB they should all fair decently with ranged weapons, especially the ranger, and druid may be able to turn into something that flies. You might recommend to your barbarian that he use reach weapons to maximize their efficiency, Range, Reach, and Close combats. It shouldn't actually be that tough on you. And I second the idea of a military campaign campaign (two words, different reference). Begin with a couple skirmishes and battles and as they go along they become responsible for handling special tasks that keep the army moving forward; defeating nightmarish creatures that steal soldiers in the night, taking out advanced scouting teams, storming small emplacements, slaying a cave dwelling wizard whose magic is slowing their progress. You could really have a rocking Conan-esque campaign here. And, being a part of the army means that they have a supply of healing, the only need survive the trek back to the main encampment.
bloodtalon 12-11-07, 06:45 PM	do a military one i have done a few with no magic they can be more fun then ones with magic and when i say no magic i mean 0% magic not magic items or nothing makes the players think more and plan what they will do
I_Poke_The_Darkness 12-12-07, 01:49 AM	Thanks for the advice, without much for casters I was thinking of a horror survival campaign, I know I am being lazy for not looking myself but do any of you know any good threads on that? The idea for the military campaign is also great, I will have to find some way of combining the two. should not be too hard, tell them to hold this fort then overwhelm it with undead or send them in to a underground city as a small assault team (resident evil). :devil: