Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Leibel 12-06-04, 01:08 PM	for the next campaign anyway It's already been decided what the party will be like Vampires(4)(Ranger, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and Sahuagin(Cleric,Druid,Fighter,Rogue). A few problems 1) Running the vampire part of the campaign - no traveling in daylight, no traveling over water, the "evil" entangle(or web or evards black tentacles + daylight combo) and the overpowered abilities 2) The sahuagin part to the campaign - no being on land for more than 14 hours, aquatic armor(?) 3) The evil part - the campaign not degenerating into smash, murder, pillage for the heck of it nonsense. 4) Using Sahaugin and vampires together - is that possible What to tell the PC's about this request.
Board_Rider 12-06-04, 02:02 PM	I am not sure what Sahaugin means so I cannot comment on that. However running an entirely Vampire can be extremely difficult for a DM. If played properly the Players will have problems too. I would tell them that you just don't have the energy/time to run such a difficult campaign. However, if you do, then I would reccomend the PC's be put up against "good" people or Vampire Hunters to try and the avoid the whole murder/killing all the time. Who knows it could be fun. You might like it. If not then scrap it and make a new campaign. Good Luck.
Aeromus 12-06-04, 02:09 PM	Just say no.
ajmastrean 12-06-04, 02:24 PM	I am somewhat confused on how many players there are and what classes they are. Can you list that one line at a time, a bit more clearly. At any rate, the vampire and the sahaugin have the obvious water problems. This could keep the party split up (vampire not participating in daylight, sahaugin and party leaving vampire while on/in water, sahaugin leaving to water up). It is never a good idea to split the party so harshly, unless specifically a plot device. The vampire may be powerful at the start (by the way, what level are you starting?), but later down the line, his LA is going to hurt.
Dash Branaghan 12-06-04, 05:26 PM	First of all, I see nothing more than a headache here. Your concerns about keeping it from turning into a smash, rape, pillage campaign are valid, and probably accurate. I highly doubt you will be able to keep it from degenerating into that. Now, my solutions to some of the problems. #1) Vampire Weaknesses - Alter them. There is nothing that says you can't change the vampiric weakness about water. After all, if you watch Coppola's Dracula, you will see Dracula transported on a ship at sea, and he even feasts once or twice on the voyage. The moving water weakness refers to rivers and streams; a vampire cannot cross moving water or bridges because of it. This can be changed to reflect whatever you want. In Ravenloft 2ed, there were lists of weaknesses that a particular vampire could have, just to mix things up and make life interesting for PCs. One that comes to mind is a weakness for Holy Salt...blessed salt. The normal vampire is intensely dry (and flammable), and holy water, blessed, will be absorbed, causing damage (and burning, akin to acid). Since the Sahuagin are water creatures, they would be reversed, and Holy Salt would be needed to do damage. #2) Underwater Campaign - No reason why this can't be a strictly underwater campaign. There are several creature races for underwater, and there is nothing stopping the vampiric sahuagin from attacking ships on a well known trade route. People are hired to take out the vampiric sahuagin, without knowing they are vampires necessarily. As well, the aquatic races may also fall victim, in which case they will attempt to hunt down the Sahuagin and kill them. #3) The daylight issue will be a non issue in the depths of the sea. Which is an interesting premise, since the sahuagin will be able to travel whenever they want. Of course, you can have them fatigue easily, or give them a temporal clock. You could also reverse it and have them take damage from moon light (after all, the moon affects tides...maybe some internal mechanism). #4) While evil, they are controlled, so maybe they want to break that control. To do so, they must find the vampire that made them. How did they become a vampire? Well, they don't remember...only that they are. So they must seek out clues to their unnatural becoming unless they want to be pawns forever. To this end, you could have a vampire on one of the ships that was attacked by a Sahuagin raiding party at night, who converted the PCs (and maybe a couple of other Sahuagin the party doesn't know about, vampiric sahuagin that will attempt to stop them from doing whatever they do at the behest of the master) into their vampiric form and dumped them overboard. He plans to control these creatures to gain a powerful artifact from a sea elven community by converting them slowly to vampires who will then be under his control. Because the overworld (land lubbers) do not observe the undersea world or pay attention to it at all, they won't know...and in the interim, vampiric aquatic races may start attacking ships to gain new victims. Well, hopefully that helps some. Dash
Pongolyn 12-06-04, 05:59 PM	Here's an idea: transform the entire campaign into a seafaring one by houseruling the vampire's inability to pass over running water is actually an inability to pass over large stretches of land (i.e., more than X number of feet from the shore). You now have the perfect setting for a piracy campaign.
Lordofthebean 12-06-04, 07:14 PM	If you really want to play a vampire campaign, Vampire: The Masquerade is probably a better system than D&D. The hefty spell-like abilities, even in light of the weaknesses, make vampires--especially a group of them--a losing proposition.
danielinthewolvesden 12-06-04, 08:10 PM	If you really want to play a vampire campaign, Vampire: The Masquerade is probably a better system than D&D. The hefty spell-like abilities, even in light of the weaknesses, make vampires--especially a group of them--a losing proposition. Right. Note that even Libris Mortis sez not to try running a "true" vampire as a PC. Now, they do have a lesser vampire (or whatever they call it) and a half-vampire template, so with those tow options, you should be able to make folks happy. As for Sahuagin? Umm, underwater camiiagns are hard enough without doing an Evil underwater campaign. And, certainly they can't mix- no "underwater vampires". Just say NO!!! Either do Vampire as lordofthebean suggests, or how about this- :lightbulb the party is all part vampire, vampire bloodline or lesser vampire (or some combo. There is also the Mortif race in a Dragon Magazine). Let them start at whatever would be 2nd level+ PC PLUS the half-vampire temple (I thinks that's La+3?)They are ruthless but not Evil. They are on a mission to kill the super-uber Vampire, otherwise they'll all turn into mindless thralls. Call them "LN" with a Good mission, but they don't care a lot about "collateral damage'- they just want to get the BBEG. :plotting: Thus, there shouldn't be any of that "smash, murder, pillage for the heck of it nonsense.". Plenty of angst and even the occasional killing of "good guys that get in their way or try to destroy them as real vampires". Kinda a bit like "Blade" or "Vampire Hunter D". Actually sounds like fun..... :evillaugh
Dash Branaghan 12-06-04, 10:46 PM	As for Sahuagin? Umm, underwater camiiagns are hard enough without doing an Evil underwater campaign. And, certainly they can't mix- no "underwater vampires". Just say NO!!! I don't agree with these statements. There is nothing that says underwater vampires cannot exist. I don't think underwater campaigns are all the difficult either, but that is more opinion based than anything. I do like the suggestion of the half vampire template from Libris Mortis (I love this book!) and the whole Blade/Vampire Hunter D hunting down the master vampire before succumbing to mindless thralls, but I don't see any reason why combing this idea of yours with the ideas mentioned in my previous post (relating to the ignorance of the land lubbers, the plans to recover an artifact, and the possibility of other Sahuagin vampiric thralls who will try to stop the PCs) wouldn't work. In fact, it seems to provide exactly what the OP is asking for. But yeah, DITWD has the solution to keeping such a campaign on an even keel if you decide to run with it. Dash
danielinthewolvesden 12-06-04, 11:16 PM	Well, since Sahuagin need to stay underwater, that seems a bit limiting. I suppose it wouldn't be 'wrong"- but why Sahuagin? I mean, Vampires have a certain coolness, but Sahuagin? :confused: But there are many issues- can vamps go gaseous underwater, and if so does the gas just bubble to the surface? What happens to the soil in their coffins? Underwater bats???? :eek: Do ocean currents count as "running water"? How far down is sunlight deadly? Etc, etc. Anyway, run the whole "vampire hunter" thing past your players, and see what they think. If Dash & I agree on something, it has to be worthwhile! :D :P
Dash Branaghan 12-07-04, 12:02 AM	:heehee As far as the bats, and gaseous form and stuff like that, you can always adjust it as need be...change bats to eels, and gaseous form to aqueous form (after all, they turn into a form similar to the element that surrounds them...why not make it water instead of gas?). If you can get your hands on the 2ed Ravenloft book, there are plenty of ideas on the weaknesses you can give the players, and alternative strengths. Dash
PhaedrusXY 12-07-04, 12:29 AM	Aquatic creatures that are turned into vampires do not have the normal vampire weakness about running water. This is in the rules, not something I'm making up. I will look up exactly where later, if someone insists. I don't have my books on me.
The_Dark_One 12-07-04, 12:36 AM	As for the bats thing, just have them turn into underwater bats (i.e. stingrays).
malykoth 12-07-04, 12:39 AM	There was an old Swamp Thing (the comic book) story by Alan Moore that was very similar to this concept. In it, a town infested with vampires is flooded, and eventually the vampires become "aquatic" in nature. One of the scenes has a bunch of kids swimming, and this one kid floating off to the side keeps getting paler and paler in each panel. In the last panel, you see a vampire attached to his foot. One of the female vampires is "chosen" to become a mother/queen. She swells up with hundreds of vampire-fishman baby eggs. When they hatched, they looked a lot like vampiric sahuagin!
malykoth 12-07-04, 12:46 AM	As for the bats thing, just have them turn into underwater bats (i.e. stingrays). I'd suggest replacing bats with baraccudas and wolves with sharks. Gaseous form can become "bloody water". The whole coffin/soil analog is escaping me at present, though. I like the holy salt idea, but holy water might work as well. Maybe blessed candles floating on the surface repel them as well?
Melpomene 12-07-04, 12:52 AM	Vampires, as undead, no longer have the need to breath. With a vampire's weakenss for water, the sahaguin would have had to be on land to contract vampirism, ergo, it (the sahaguin) simply remains on land. It will cost it the aquatic subtype. Oh, well. Sounds like a hoot, but you'll need a very cohegant plot and lots of planning.
The_Dark_One 12-07-04, 01:00 AM	I'd suggest replacing bats with baraccudas and wolves with sharks. I like this, but with land vampires getting a powerful form (wolf) and one that isn't all that useful for combat (bat) and the aquatic version getting two powerful forms, it could be a little unfair.
PhaedrusXY 12-07-04, 01:14 AM	As for the bats thing, just have them turn into underwater bats (i.e. stingrays).Actually, this kind of thing is talked about in the same place as aquatic vampires not having the weakness to moving water. Now that I think about it, I think all this stuff was in Libris Mortis. I bought that book a few weeks ago and only browsed through some parts of it, like this. It is very, very nice if you're running a campaign with alot of undead, and has alot of new tricks for PCs to use against undead... or with them... as well.
malykoth 12-07-04, 01:19 AM	I like this, but with land vampires getting a powerful form (wolf) and one that isn't all that useful for combat (bat) and the aquatic version getting two powerful forms, it could be a little unfair. Maybe a lamprey, then?
BlueFlames 12-07-04, 01:56 AM	3) The evil part - the campaign not degenerating into smash, murder, pillage for the heck of it nonsense. Might I suggest that 'evil' is not simple destruction. If that were the metric, it seems to me that Barbarians would be evil almost as a prerequisite, and 'lawful evil' could be struck from the alignment scale. Evil can be brought about in many different ways, and--especially with vampires--wanton destruction is not usually the primary concern. Look at what villians do in movies and video games. Certainly, there are those that just want to kill, murder, maim, and so forth for the fun of it, but when you're in the theater or watching the game's closing cutscene, those villians tend to be the most disappointing. After all that time spent watching/playing, you were just hunting down a looney, who fits in only in an asylum or the dead-book? What a rip-off. No, the really satisfying villians are the sinister ones with greater objectives. Think of Jon Irenicus from Baldur's Gate II, searching for a divine soul to fuel his immortality, or the police chief in Minority Report, going to any measure to secure his future. Using the BG2 example, once you've defeaten Irenicus, you feel like you've accomplished something, not only because of the challenge, but because for the last ~200 hours of gameplay, he was continually committing unspeakable evils, beyond silly burning of villages and indiscriminant killing. Not only that, but every time you met him, he seemed to one-up his previous actions. First he tortures you, then he uses the life-force of others to siphon off your soul, then he goes takes the final steps on his quest of revenge. As you come down to your final few quests, you don't want to tear yourself from the screen, because this bastard needs to die. Once he is dead, you get a great sense of pleasure and relief. It's pure satisfaction. Playing with evil is much the same as playing against evil. Sure, you can burn down a village or go on a killing spree for chuckles, but that gets old fast. It gets old even faster when you realize you're too low-level to take on the local garrison and find yourself continually running from county to county, trying to stay a step ahead of your reputation. Lameness begets lameness, as it were. Evil characters, if played correctly, should typically be seeking greater power for themselves, rest of the world be damned. Vampires typically do this through stealth and dominance. A generic hive of vampires seeks to increase its number by creating vampire spawn, who are completely under the control of the vampires that created them. Depending on their location, they may also bribe politicians. As a race, vampires tend to lean heavily toward the lawful end of the law vs. chaos spectrum, which does not necessarily mean that they obey the law of the land, but they prefer a very ordered method to meeting their goals. Burning a city won't cross their minds, since a city is a stupendous place to feed and generate spawn. Because of their highly ordered logic and their typical goals, it's not too terribly difficult to at least build a plot line for a vampire campaign to follow. Working with the vampires' weaknesses are what might make campaign design a little more difficult. Since D&D campaigns do tend to involve a fair deal of travel, dealing with the daylight would be especially annoying... After a while, I imagine I would become somewhat annoyed by a contrived cave showing up every night a few minutes before sunrise. After a while, spells can deal with shelter (ex. Leomund's Secure Shelter) or transit (ex. Teleport), but the time before someone can cast forth and fifth level spells could be fairly long, constantly dodging intermittant rays of sunlight. I can't make too many suggestions for the sahuagin, since I've not played or DM'ed any aquatic campaigns, but given the vampires' extreme vulnerability to water, mixing the two races in one campaign could be difficult. I'd almost say that in a single campaign, the vampires' water vulnerability and the sahuagins' aquatic nature make the two races incompatible, but if you find a way to make it work, by all means, go for it. I'm sure it would be a unique experience. My main point was to get across that evil isn't always synomous with death and destruction. That sort of behavior is strongly chaotic and often times downright incompatible with the tenets and objectives of an evil character.
Dash Branaghan 12-07-04, 07:52 AM	Vampires, as undead, no longer have the need to breath. With a vampire's weakenss for water, the sahaguin would have had to be on land to contract vampirism, ergo, it (the sahaguin) simply remains on land. It will cost it the aquatic subtype. Oh, well. But not all vampires have a weakness for water. And there is nothing saying that Vampirism is a landlocked condition. As far as alternate forms: a shark (as well as the ability to summon sharks) would work, and maybe a school of minnows to replace the bat (the big thing about the bat is the three dimensions of movement...in this case, maybe switch the movement aspect to something with speed...a harmless fish that just moves fast). The suggestion of blood water doesn't sit well with me...too obvious and too easy to contain in a sense (just start bottling it or contain it in a Sphere of Force). Sticking with aqueous form of water would be fine I think...especially if you have other vampiric Sahuagin against them. The other thing to consider with the aqueous form is currents...like the gaseous form is subject to gust of wind and stuff like that, the aqueous form would be subject to underwater currents, passing through other fish, etc. Dash
malykoth 12-07-04, 09:55 AM	The suggestion of blood water doesn't sit well with me...too obvious and too easy to contain in a sense (just start bottling it or contain it in a Sphere of Force). But couldn't the same techniques be used against a land-based vampire in standard gaseous form? By aqueous water, I assume you mean clear water. That would also give them an extremely useful form of invisibility for free. Gaseous form isn't invisible, after all. Maybe their gaseous form could be more of a silt-form, oozing along the bottom of the sea, swamp or river they inhabit. I kind of like the idea of turning into a school of fish, but I think they have rules for swarm-shifters in the Libris Mortis. The aquatic vamps could turn into anchovies (hold the garlic).
BloodGod 12-07-04, 10:12 AM	Just say no. Agreed. I wouldn't run such a campaign. Do the players actually realize how hard it's going to be to work efficiently as a group when they've all got so many weaknesses and problems? If you do decide to run this though, for the 'evil/rape/pillage/burn/etc' problem, just because they're evil doesn't mean that they can do whatever they please. Ok. They're vampires. They're Sahaugin. Doesn't matter. Did you think of a good/neutral king/emperor of the land. What happens when the vampires and Sa's go and destroy one of the king's cities. He's going to be ******! He's going to dispatch his army, a task force, or he'll send one of the princes (who'll be almost as high level and nasty as the king) to exact revenge on the murderous group. Maybe you don't want a good/neutral king ruling them. Fine. What happens when something big threatens the lands? What happens when a Tarresque starts pillaging? What about when a portal to Hell opens somewhere and demons/devils start tearing apart the material plane? The 'bad guys' just going to pick up and move over to the next plane? Please! I've been playing in an all evil group for almost a year now. We've destroyed one town at the request of the king. We still do good things/save the world because if we didn't, no one would. And, that'd mean we'd lose our castle, we'd lose our land, we'd lose our lives. People always seem to make such a big deal out of all evil groups. "Oh! How oh how do I control them!? How do I stop them from pillaging the world!?" Why would you I say? If that's what the PCs want to do, then give them their shot. Maybe they can destroy a couple cities before the country's army catches up. Maybe they're confronted by a lich, whose turf the group's been pillaging. Maybe the group knows their objectives and priorities, maybe they won't just try to destroy everything. Rather, they'll save everything so that only they can manipulate and abuse the world. But, back to my original point. I think vampires should never be played as characters. And, if they are, their abilities/stats/flaws should all be toned down. Sa's need for water makes them hard to play too, unless the DM randomly plants ponds in dungeons. -BG
danielinthewolvesden 12-07-04, 11:08 AM	However, going back a bit- IF we mixed Sahuagin and Vamps, they'd likely have to be true vamps, and as has been said- they don't work well as PC's. The whole idea of half-vampires would then be out- unless everyone had waterbreathing and free action. Also note that running a D20 game in 3D is a nitemare, what with the rules being set up for 2D.
Zeitgeistgeist 12-07-04, 12:39 PM	Leibel, no need to go changing things left and right. It's simple to take care of these problems. Set the campaign in a city-state on an island (think New York City). Make it small in physical size but build up and down, wizard towers and catacombs. Give the island a vampire infestation and a powerful church with a division who's sole purpose is to hunt vampires. Give the vampires a strict heirarchy and make the PCs the ones on the bottom rung who have to do all the dirty work. Give the city-state an active port, and an incredibly wealthy merchant upperclass (or noble class, depending on what sort of flavor you want). Unfortunately, not only does this city-state have to deal with its internal vampire problem, its got sahaugin in the waters. They'd have a decent navy to deal with pirates and foreign invasions anyway, but a section of their navy has been specifically designed for the sahaugin threat. Crack fighters with wizards churning out water enchanted items (to bring the fight to the sahaugin). Now you've put the PCs on the defensive, they have visible goals and threats. The vampires lair in the catacombs and sewers of the city. Perhaps a sea raid drove some of the sahaugin to flee to the sewers as well. Somewhere, both under the city and in the ocean, there are secret vampire and sahaugin strongholds. The city is actively raiding and scouting, trying to discover the location of these strongholds. Perhaps only a few of the sahaugin and vampires are actually aware of where these strongholds are, and spend their lives as nomads, moving from 'safe house' to 'safe house' staying one step ahead of the city forces. Develop the leaders of the vampires and the sahaugin. Figure out their strategy for taking the city. They are going to have different goals, but remember that they are both parasites. The vampires live off of the blood of the human residents and the sahaugin enjoy plundering the many ships that are attracted to the city. Perhaps the sahaugin don't leave because this area is holy ground for them. Maybe there's a secret sahaugin artifact sealed in the area and they are trying to figure out how to release it. Whatever it is, you want a bigger reason for the sahaugin to remain in the area Think about how the first vampire got to the island. Who is he or she? Is their vampirism the result of an incredibly powerful curse? Did the vampire travel to the island via crate (like Bram Stoker's baddie)? Maybe the big bad vampire is contained in a magical ward (like the first season of Buff). What are the personality quirks of the head vampire. Are their vampire factions, or do they all follow the same leader? If their are factions, what are their relations like? Do they have terf wars? Maybe they not only have to worry about running into the cities police force, but enemy vampires as well. Remember, the city has been fighting for a long time, so they have effective strategies. The holies are armed with stakes and holy water, have mirrors for identifying covert vampires, as well as a few handy magical tools, maybe depending on rank. The heaviest police force is going to be in the rich districts of the city, then the merchant districts, then occasional troops in the slums. The slums will probably be where most of the above ground activity takes place, except for the occasional raid into the other areas. Remember, people of note will probably also have bodyguards trained to deal with vampires and information on protecting one's self against vampires will also likely be widespread (I'd include the caveat that vampires cannot enter a dwelling place unless invited. Force those PCs to concentrate on social skills and trickery instead of all out fighting prowess.). Now, think about city politics and economy. Detail the factions of the city. How does the city government and military relate to the vampire religion? The religion probably focuses their enrollment on the fact that they can somewhat effectively deal with the vampire threat. The government must therefore make sure they are concentrating on both keeping the city economically thriving and dealing with the vampire threat as well. Normal people will probably be aware of the sahaugin problem, but unless they make their living directly from sailing, they probably won't be nearly as worried about it as about vampires. If the government does deal with the vampire threat, they run the risk of rebelion and a religious state being instituted. If they don't effectively deal with the sahaugin, they run the risk of losing merchant vessels and their economy collapsing. For a nice dark fantasy campaign, I'd make the church neutral and I'd have the upper government power (be it noble or some sort of council) begining to open negotiations with an infernal power (perhaps foolishly trading an unknown evil for a known evil). Whatever you do with this, make sure that there is some competition between the church and the state. It just makes things more interresting. You could even further devide it, with some higher members of the church feeling that too much focus is being put on hunting vampires and that the church is losing its way, while others are obsessed with eliminating or purging the vampire menace. Not only can the government be divided on which threat is greater, the vampires or the sahaugin (remember, they're in the well protected districts, its the peons who have to worry about vampires, meanwhile, the sahaugin are interrupting trade) they can also be involved in a constant internal power struggle (absolute money corrupts, absolutely). Remember those wizards who are making all those magic items for the city? How do they fit in here. Sure, they're earning a good paycheck and probably have state provided magic labs, but what are their ultimate goals. How are they organized? Do they all come from a single school of magic, or are they a ragtag bunch of spellcasters who come to the city for money. If they come from a single school of magic, where is it? Is it in the city? Maybe it is a higher up in the magic school that is helping the statesman contact the infernal forces. Maybe there is someone in the magic school who, for some reason, wants to help the sagauhin or the vampires. Maybe the vampires have been specifically targeting members of the magic school to be turned into vampires (at great loss to their own numbers, probably). As far as gaming style goes, I see a couple of things. I can see public displays of vampires captured, contained and covered in a cage, to be uncovered infront of a huge crowd as part of some sort of public execution of holy ritual (and to get the crowd really worked up). I think the religious vampire hunters would be more like the stereo typical lone vampire hunter backed up with his or her holy power, whereas those from the city forces would probably work in conjunction as a vampire hunting force, like a SWAT team. As far as the waterways go, I see small boats of 5-6 warriors patrolling the surrounding island, particularly at ports of sensitive spots (i.e. the coast of the richer districts) There would also be a fleet of slightly larger boats 10-15 warriors, who's responsibility would be to escort the merchant vessels into the harbor. There would be periodic raids (say once or twice a month), where the location of the sahaugin would be investigated and a ship would be sent to drop magical 'depth charges.' This would be followed by the city's equivalent of Navy SEALS to finish off anyone left down there. So these were the problems: >1) Running the vampire part of the campaign - no traveling in daylight, no traveling over water, the "evil" entangle(or web or evards black tentacles + daylight combo) and the overpowered abilities >2) The sahuagin part to the campaign - no being on land for more than 14 hours, aquatic armor(?) >3) The evil part - the campaign not degenerating into smash, murder, pillage for the heck of it nonsense. >4) Using Sahaugin and vampires together - is that possible 1) They operate at night and the city is only so big with plenty of places to go underground. They are stuck in the city, for the most part, as they can't really travel over moving water. Plus, they should feel involved in the vampires struggle and have personal goals, or they'll go out of their way to figure out how to travel out of the city and ravage bigger lands. If they get caught with an intangle or web or whatever, and the sun comes up, they're dead. Tough. They're vampires, they'll have to get over it or figure out a way to protect themselves from it (as it will likely be one of the tactics for fighting them). As for their crazy powers? Leave 'em, they're going to need all the help they can get. 2) I would run the game as the vampires as a band, getting orders from their higher ups. Have the sahaugin be a rouge band from the main sahaugin tribe (or kingdom or whatever). Tell them that they ran into each other in the sewers. The sahaugin were running from a water raid and found themselves in the sewers. The vampires were actively being persued by hunters. Both being wounded, they threw in together and were able to defeat the hunters. Since then there has been an uneasy alliance between the two small groups. Then, for their first adventure/mission, figure out something that they need to cooperate together to get done. That should be more than enough to cement the group. Later, once the group is firmly together, you can start playing with ideas of, say, the vampire higher ups don't trust the sagauhin and so the PCs need to prove the sagauhin's worth somehow. Stuff like that. 3) Think of the slums like something out of Lankhmar, full of cut throats, murders and thieves as well as the poor people who are just trying to survive. The poor have a first line of defense against the vampires (but not the sagauhin) in that vampires can only prey on those wandering around outside. Not the filth is preying on the filth. Also, let them know that, in the past, when others have gone on wild killing sprees, the church and the state came down hard on the slums, killing lots of vampires. Let them go on a spree and watch how, in a day or two, the slums, catacombs and sewers are crawling with hunters. With such overwhelming forces, let one of their characters die (again). Then let their higher ups beat the crap out of them for indangering the lair! I don't think it will need to happen more than once for them to get the message. Let them know that they can be evil, but they have to keep it on the down low. Nobody in power in the city really cares if a few peons die every so often. Its when it becomes threatening to them that overwhelming action will be taken. 4) When I read your post, I immediatly thought it was a bad idea. Then, I thought about how it could be done, and I think you have a nice little campaign to play. (In fact, I might just play it myself!)
Dash Branaghan 12-07-04, 03:09 PM	But couldn't the same techniques be used against a land-based vampire in standard gaseous form? By aqueous water, I assume you mean clear water. That would also give them an extremely useful form of invisibility for free. Gaseous form isn't invisible, after all. Maybe their gaseous form could be more of a silt-form, oozing along the bottom of the sea, swamp or river they inhabit. I kind of like the idea of turning into a school of fish, but I think they have rules for swarm-shifters in the Libris Mortis. The aquatic vamps could turn into anchovies (hold the garlic). I could handle silty water...that works a bit better...sure, it sticks out, but not nearly as much as blood water would. :D As for the garlic...make them allergic to seaweed. *chuckle* Dash
Aluroon 12-07-04, 03:48 PM	Leibel, no need to go changing things left and right. It's simple to take care of these problems. Set the campaign in a city-state on an island (think New York City). Make it small in physical size but build up and down, wizard towers and catacombs. Give the island a vampire infestation and a powerful church with a division who's sole purpose is to hunt vampires. Give the vampires a strict heirarchy and make the PCs the ones on the bottom rung who have to do all the dirty work. Give the city-state an active port, and an incredibly wealthy merchant upperclass (or noble class, depending on what sort of flavor you want). Unfortunately, not only does this city-state have to deal with its internal vampire problem, its got sahaugin in the waters. They'd have a decent navy to deal with pirates and foreign invasions anyway, but a section of their navy has been specifically designed for the sahaugin threat. Crack fighters with wizards churning out water enchanted items (to bring the fight to the sahaugin). Now you've put the PCs on the defensive, they have visible goals and threats. The vampires lair in the catacombs and sewers of the city. Perhaps a sea raid drove some of the sahaugin to flee to the sewers as well. Somewhere, both under the city and in the ocean, there are secret vampire and sahaugin strongholds. The city is actively raiding and scouting, trying to discover the location of these strongholds. Perhaps only a few of the sahaugin and vampires are actually aware of where these strongholds are, and spend their lives as nomads, moving from 'safe house' to 'safe house' staying one step ahead of the city forces. Develop the leaders of the vampires and the sahaugin. Figure out their strategy for taking the city. They are going to have different goals, but remember that they are both parasites. The vampires live off of the blood of the human residents and the sahaugin enjoy plundering the many ships that are attracted to the city. Perhaps the sahaugin don't leave because this area is holy ground for them. Maybe there's a secret sahaugin artifact sealed in the area and they are trying to figure out how to release it. Whatever it is, you want a bigger reason for the sahaugin to remain in the area Think about how the first vampire got to the island. Who is he or she? Is their vampirism the result of an incredibly powerful curse? Did the vampire travel to the island via crate (like Bram Stoker's baddie)? Maybe the big bad vampire is contained in a magical ward (like the first season of Buff). What are the personality quirks of the head vampire. Are their vampire factions, or do they all follow the same leader? If their are factions, what are their relations like? Do they have terf wars? Maybe they not only have to worry about running into the cities police force, but enemy vampires as well. Remember, the city has been fighting for a long time, so they have effective strategies. The holies are armed with stakes and holy water, have mirrors for identifying covert vampires, as well as a few handy magical tools, maybe depending on rank. The heaviest police force is going to be in the rich districts of the city, then the merchant districts, then occasional troops in the slums. The slums will probably be where most of the above ground activity takes place, except for the occasional raid into the other areas. Remember, people of note will probably also have bodyguards trained to deal with vampires and information on protecting one's self against vampires will also likely be widespread (I'd include the caveat that vampires cannot enter a dwelling place unless invited. Force those PCs to concentrate on social skills and trickery instead of all out fighting prowess.). Now, think about city politics and economy. Detail the factions of the city. How does the city government and military relate to the vampire religion? The religion probably focuses their enrollment on the fact that they can somewhat effectively deal with the vampire threat. The government must therefore make sure they are concentrating on both keeping the city economically thriving and dealing with the vampire threat as well. Normal people will probably be aware of the sahaugin problem, but unless they make their living directly from sailing, they probably won't be nearly as worried about it as about vampires. If the government does deal with the vampire threat, they run the risk of rebelion and a religious state being instituted. If they don't effectively deal with the sahaugin, they run the risk of losing merchant vessels and their economy collapsing. For a nice dark fantasy campaign, I'd make the church neutral and I'd have the upper government power (be it noble or some sort of council) begining to open negotiations with an infernal power (perhaps foolishly trading an unknown evil for a known evil). Whatever you do with this, make sure that there is some competition between the church and the state. It just makes things more interresting. You could even further devide it, with some higher members of the church feeling that too much focus is being put on hunting vampires and that the church is losing its way, while others are obsessed with eliminating or purging the vampire menace. Not only can the government be divided on which threat is greater, the vampires or the sahaugin (remember, they're in the well protected districts, its the peons who have to worry about vampires, meanwhile, the sahaugin are interrupting trade) they can also be involved in a constant internal power struggle (absolute money corrupts, absolutely). Remember those wizards who are making all those magic items for the city? How do they fit in here. Sure, they're earning a good paycheck and probably have state provided magic labs, but what are their ultimate goals. How are they organized? Do they all come from a single school of magic, or are they a ragtag bunch of spellcasters who come to the city for money. If they come from a single school of magic, where is it? Is it in the city? Maybe it is a higher up in the magic school that is helping the statesman contact the infernal forces. Maybe there is someone in the magic school who, for some reason, wants to help the sagauhin or the vampires. Maybe the vampires have been specifically targeting members of the magic school to be turned into vampires (at great loss to their own numbers, probably). As far as gaming style goes, I see a couple of things. I can see public displays of vampires captured, contained and covered in a cage, to be uncovered infront of a huge crowd as part of some sort of public execution of holy ritual (and to get the crowd really worked up). I think the religious vampire hunters would be more like the stereo typical lone vampire hunter backed up with his or her holy power, whereas those from the city forces would probably work in conjunction as a vampire hunting force, like a SWAT team. As far as the waterways go, I see small boats of 5-6 warriors patrolling the surrounding island, particularly at ports of sensitive spots (i.e. the coast of the richer districts) There would also be a fleet of slightly larger boats 10-15 warriors, who's responsibility would be to escort the merchant vessels into the harbor. There would be periodic raids (say once or twice a month), where the location of the sahaugin would be investigated and a ship would be sent to drop magical 'depth charges.' This would be followed by the city's equivalent of Navy SEALS to finish off anyone left down there. So these were the problems: >1) Running the vampire part of the campaign - no traveling in daylight, no traveling over water, the "evil" entangle(or web or evards black tentacles + daylight combo) and the overpowered abilities >2) The sahuagin part to the campaign - no being on land for more than 14 hours, aquatic armor(?) >3) The evil part - the campaign not degenerating into smash, murder, pillage for the heck of it nonsense. >4) Using Sahaugin and vampires together - is that possible 1) They operate at night and the city is only so big with plenty of places to go underground. They are stuck in the city, for the most part, as they can't really travel over moving water. Plus, they should feel involved in the vampires struggle and have personal goals, or they'll go out of their way to figure out how to travel out of the city and ravage bigger lands. If they get caught with an intangle or web or whatever, and the sun comes up, they're dead. Tough. They're vampires, they'll have to get over it or figure out a way to protect themselves from it (as it will likely be one of the tactics for fighting them). As for their crazy powers? Leave 'em, they're going to need all the help they can get. 2) I would run the game as the vampires as a band, getting orders from their higher ups. Have the sahaugin be a rouge band from the main sahaugin tribe (or kingdom or whatever). Tell them that they ran into each other in the sewers. The sahaugin were running from a water raid and found themselves in the sewers. The vampires were actively being persued by hunters. Both being wounded, they threw in together and were able to defeat the hunters. Since then there has been an uneasy alliance between the two small groups. Then, for their first adventure/mission, figure out something that they need to cooperate together to get done. That should be more than enough to cement the group. Later, once the group is firmly together, you can start playing with ideas of, say, the vampire higher ups don't trust the sagauhin and so the PCs need to prove the sagauhin's worth somehow. Stuff like that. 3) Think of the slums like something out of Lankhmar, full of cut throats, murders and thieves as well as the poor people who are just trying to survive. The poor have a first line of defense against the vampires (but not the sagauhin) in that vampires can only prey on those wandering around outside. Not the filth is preying on the filth. Also, let them know that, in the past, when others have gone on wild killing sprees, the church and the state came down hard on the slums, killing lots of vampires. Let them go on a spree and watch how, in a day or two, the slums, catacombs and sewers are crawling with hunters. With such overwhelming forces, let one of their characters die (again). Then let their higher ups beat the crap out of them for indangering the lair! I don't think it will need to happen more than once for them to get the message. Let them know that they can be evil, but they have to keep it on the down low. Nobody in power in the city really cares if a few peons die every so often. Its when it becomes threatening to them that overwhelming action will be taken. 4) When I read your post, I immediatly thought it was a bad idea. Then, I thought about how it could be done, and I think you have a nice little campaign to play. (In fact, I might just play it myself!) Very well written, your points are backed up by extensive fact. I might actually end up using this idea if I ever run an evil campaign, maybe without Sang memebers, maybe just vamps. This might be the most well thought out post I've seen in quite a while. Aluroon
TheosThree 12-07-04, 04:47 PM	I want to second Aluroon's praise. Zeitgeistgeist, you've managed to really inspire me with that campaign description. I started reading the thread thinking how crazy anybody would be to run a campaign like that, but you've convinced me that you can make a good attempt at a campaign out of any idea. I'm almost tempted to solicit such challenging setups from players for my next campaign to see if I could do the same.
Zeitgeistgeist 12-07-04, 06:55 PM	Aluroon and TheosThree, I'm blushing. Fact is, I saw the thread title and tried to figure out what the players were thinking... Player1: I wanna be a vampire! Player2: Me too! That sounds cool! Player3: Yeah! I'm gonna be a vampire too! Player4: Awesome! ...and I'm gonna be a sahuagin! ... Anyway, I should be working on something else, but we all know that procrastination is the mother of invention.
Leibel 12-08-04, 01:46 PM	Great ideas The PC's are all level one. Changing either vampires to aquatic or getting rid of their wate weaknesses is a good idea - I'll run it by the PC's. Aquatic armor is still a question. Also giving the vampires lesser undead underlings? Great idea about making the vampires lower ranking underlings - if you look at vampire movies - underworld comes to mind the vampires do have a strict chain of command and prefer stealth since it helps them. That restricts the rape/plunder/killing for fun stuff especially if you read the backround . The backround story is as follows - the vampires and their undead allies had an empire near the elf empire but the elf empire did not take kinldly to bloodsuckers on the border and the army consisting of elves/humans/hobgoblins/goblins(long story unto itself) crushed the undead empire which then moved south to the tropical islands. w/not enough numbers of their own the undead made an alliance w/ the sahuagin who hate the lizardfolk for persecuting/stealing from them, etc. The elf empire which completely hates the undead has a colony 90 miles north of the new undead empire and the lizard folk are less than 50 miles away. So that puts the party on the defensive. The elf empire and lizard folk empire don't hate or love each other - they won't cooperate w/each other due to international politics but they would both independantly go after the undead. Opens up the possibility of manipulating both empires into going to war w/each other though. The vampires and their undead