Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lxarth 06-05-05, 11:29 PM	I have a couple of players who, through alot of adventuring, are going to be Knighted. The problem I am having is do I just write out how the ceremony would go and just read it to them? I have found several Knightings which go through the process of what happens. But it seems like it would easier to just type out a little ceremony and read it alot to the players and call it good. Is this idea a good idea? This is one such ceremony that I am talking about. From the SCA. http://www.chronique.com/ But that also seems kinda dull and anticlimactic. I want this to be a big deal, because it is one to the players, but I'm kinda confused about how to go about it. Anyone have any ideas?
Fixxxer 06-05-05, 11:37 PM	Well, the knighting ceremony from the film Kingdom of Heaven was fairly quick and simple, but not anticlimactic. The squire gets on his knees and the persom performing the ceremony reads his oath, a lot of "protect the weak", "maintain your dignity", "always tell the truth, even if it means your death", that sort of thing. Afterwards, the person performing the ceremony says "This is your oath" and then WHAM, he hauls off and slaps the hell out of the poor guy on his knees before continuing "...and that is so you'll remember it. Rise a knight." Quite theatrical. The process for a Templar was very secrative. It took days or even weeks of whittling down a man's dignity and physical wellbeing. In the end, he was forced to spit on the cross, which was generally considered to be a blasphemous act (the situation was set up sort of like "If you love Jesus, you'll spit on this cross"). Actually, it was this act above all others that brought the Templars down in the eyes of the Inquisition. Regardless, this is obviously less theatrical, but has the benefit of being an example from real history. Just some ideas. :)
Talanall 06-05-05, 11:56 PM	It is also somewhat in doubt as to whether there really WAS a ceremony, until fairly late in the Middle Ages. What you're seeing, in a knighting ceremony, is an instance in which the leaders of a religion are called upon to witness that a given individual belongs to a certain social/economic/military station, and that this person holds his place by divine right. It is a fairly direct offshoot of the divine right of kings and of the position of the Holy Roman Emperor as God's designated ruler on earth. Basically, Charlemagne's position as Emperor of the Romans made him not merely a secular leader, but also a religious leader. His authority was divine authority as well as military authority. From there, what must have happened is that assorted great lords had their sons knighted by nearby bishops--by doing this, the bishop gains the gratitude of the lord, who might then help pay for something the bishop wants. The lord benefits from the political currency to be enjoyed by having his son's status confirmed by the Church. Eventually, this custom must have trickled down until young men were frequently knighted in a quasi-religious ceremony. There are a few things that you can take away from all this rambling. First: knights may or may not be people who have been dubbed as such in a formal (and almost certainly religious) ceremony. In fact, it looks like there were quite a few "knights" who came from the mercantile classes, ended up learning to be soldiers who could afford to maintain a horse, armor, and the appropriate weapons, and who also managed to become minor noblemen for service to some lord who had the right to hand out fiefdoms. Early on, it's certainly the case that a ceremonial approach to elevating a new knight was unusual, and tended to represent a political favor between a powerful churchman and a powerful nobleman. Later, it seems as if ceremonial knighthood was only dubiously in vogue. It really depends on what region of Europe you're looking at, historically. On the whole, you were a knight when you were capable of calling yourself one and not having anybody care to contradict you. That usually meant a minimum level of wealth, just to take care of your needs for equipment. It did not necessarily imply noble birth, or even that you had been elevated to the status of a noble (though it was usually the case that knight = nobleman). If you were ceremonially "dubbed" as a knight, it almost certainly meant that you'd been through some sort of religious ceremony, which may have been more or less elaborate depending on the time, place, and your own importance.
SwitchUK 06-06-05, 07:32 AM	One "stay awake all night in vigil over your armour" constitution check (not hard to pass). A quick ceremony in which you say "Step forward" they step forward, you say "kneel" they kneel, you say "The monarch rests the flat of his sword on your shoulder and proclaims you "sir X", and bids you rise". they rise. you give them a little XP. ASSASSINS SNEAK ATTACK THE MONARCH WITH POISONED CROSSBOWS!!!!! Just an idea...
Lxarth 06-06-05, 09:33 AM	ASSASSINS SNEAK ATTACK THE MONARCH WITH POISONED CROSSBOWS!!!!! Thats damn funny! I just want my players to enjoy it, because it is something they have worked for a very long time and don't want it to come off as just some chore. Talanall: Your post made little sense to me, sorry. Somewhere in there you where talking about historical stuff. I'm not really looking to history for this one, I just want to Knight them, but not make it seem cheesy, or boring.
Talanall 06-06-05, 10:20 AM	I was mostly suggesting that "knighting" them could be accomplished easily enough by saying, "Lord So-and-So has granted you a piece of land/stipend/title, so now you're technically knights." Unless you're wanting them to enter some kind of chivalric organization, that's pretty much as ceremonial as it has to get.
Illion the Red 06-06-05, 10:24 AM	I have a couple of players who, through alot of adventuring, are going to be Knighted. The problem I am having is do I just write out how the ceremony would go and just read it to them? I have found several Knightings which go through the process of what happens. But it seems like it would easier to just type out a little ceremony and read it alot to the players and call it good. If you really want to make it a big deal, really set the stage. Have the ceremony happen at night, with huge bonfires burning in the courtyard. Have the royal guards outfitted in their finest ceremonial armor and tabards, their weapons polished to a high sheen. The characters enter the courtyard lead by the Chamberlin who strikes his ironshod ceremonial staff three times in rapid succession upon the cobblestones. The sound of which echos throughout the area, carrying beyond the walls of the keep and into the lands beyond. A great wind whips the banners surrounding the courtyard, swirling around each and every soldier, noble, and witness. Yet, the wind does not stir a single hair upon any of those to be knighted. After pausing for the wind, the Chamberlain leads the group to their proper position, declaring that the gods have approved of the petitioners. The group stands proudly. Silence overwhelms the gathered masses as the king emerges from the keep nearly glowing in his ceremonial armor. His booted feet make the only sound as he slowly proceeds to his appointed spot in front of the adventurers. he gives the Chamberlain an almst imperceptable nod and the Chamberlain begins. He reads aloud the accounting of the heros great deeds and service to the kingdom. As he reads such declarations aloud, the king's spiritual advisor (the local high cleric of whomever) joins the ceremony, anointing the foreheads of the group with the blessed ceremonial oil. He stps back to his position next to the king as the Chamberlain completes his declaraion of the party's deeds. He strikes his staff three more times, the sound nearly deafening and declares that the petitioners are to kneel. The king himself offers the party the opportunity to swear oath to the crown. He bends before each of them so that they can kiss the crown and his signet ring as a final affirmation of their oath. When they have each made their oaths, he will nod to the Chamberlain yet again and raise his own grand scepter into the air. "I, King (insert name here), monarch of (insert kingdom name here) declare that those who kneel before me in truth and honesty are in mine eyes worthy of the high honor of knighthood. I call upon the gods themselves to bless them and as fire is the source of passion, so shall you all feel teh passion of this charge." The king strikes his grand sceptre upon the flagstone he stands upon and it is lit up with a tremendous spark. The lightning leaps from the sceptre to the newly declared knights, lighing the annointing oil ablaze. The blessed oil burns with a warmth, but no pain. In moments, the oil has burned away, leaving a trace of ash in the form of the coat of arms of the kingdom. "Rise, loyal knights, and join me at my side!" The crowd cheers. The bards begin to play. It's party time!
Lxarth 06-06-05, 06:06 PM	Whoa...that was sweet, I got chills. Thanks!
scott644 06-06-05, 06:28 PM	Frankly, I wouldn't try to use somebody else's ceremony (although that one just above was very nice!). To maintain the flavor and feel of your own campaign, you should take the elements you prefer and combine them in some manner appropriate to the situation. For example, my party got trapped in a villa, along with about 20 of the King's infantry, defending against a warband of about 400 raiders (their leader had been charmed to think kidnapping the King for hostage would be a profitable venture). During the battle, one of our party performed an incredibly daring maneuver; he grappled the raiders' wizard *through* the portcullis, giving the troops the chance to finish said wizard at great risk to himself (there was a ravening horde mere feet away, and the wizard was using touch spells). We succeeded in weathering the siege and needless to say, he got knighted. The ceremony was that evening, in the ruin of the dining hall (it had been converted to a makeshift hospital). The King used the sword that was available, made the formal words, tapped him on the shoulder, and he arose a (quite famous) knight. A year and a half later (game time) my character joined the King's elite guard (an equivalent to knight-hood); while small (only myself, the King, the Captain of the King's Guard, and one other party member) it was a very formal ceremony full of oath-giving and -taking, a truly exotic sword (a bronze gladius in an age of muskets!), and done in the King's very throne room. In other words, it all really comes down to how you describe it rather than what you choose to describe.
clarkvalentine 06-06-05, 09:17 PM	... and then WHAM, he hauls off and slaps the hell out of the poor guy on his knees before continuing "...and that is so you'll remember it. Rise a knight." Quite theatrical. In some Arthurian tales the knight's liege lord slaps them across the face and says "Let this blow be the last you accept unanswered." There's also (borrowed from the game King Arthur Pendragon) the notion that a knight's first task, immediately after being knighted and walking from the church, is to sprint out into the courtyard in full armor and leap upon his horse (Jump or Ride check, DC say 15?) in front of the watching crowd. It's all in fun, and if the knight falls the worst he gets is some laughs from the crowd and good-natured ribbing from his lord and his fellows. It does make for a fun roleplaying scene, though.
Dragon4217 06-06-05, 09:34 PM	Something you can add is a little mood music. Have a fanfare play, some processional music, then do the ceremony. Players will remember something little and extra you throw in, like music. The other thing is, describe the place that their in, similar to box text, but be elaborate, while the processional music is playing. If you do this well, they'll get the feeling that they are actually walking down the aisle. Also, if they are in to game effects, give them a minor bonus to some things...like diplomacy checks, or something, or maybe a special magic item....check the Miniatures handbook for some cool stuff that would be good. A combination of additional elements, description, and items can make something really memorable. My DM had an acceptance ritual into a Noble family of Bards, and found five pieces of music that represented each of the players...it was great...he spent a lot of time on it, and it really showed.
Cantankerous 06-07-05, 02:02 AM	snip The process for a Templar was very secrative. It took days or even weeks of whittling down a man's dignity and physical wellbeing. In the end, he was forced to spit on the cross, which was generally considered to be a blasphemous act (the situation was set up sort of like "If you love Jesus, you'll spit on this cross"). Actually, it was this act above all others that brought the Templars down in the eyes of the Inquisition. ***snip*** Accurate, as usual, but there is one thing here that is being ignored. Very likely the REAL reason (and the largest reason) that the Inquisition went after the Templars as they did was that the Inquisitors wanted the rich lands and chattels of the Templars, since any "apostates" or "blasphemers" surrendered their rights to their lands and holdings to "mother Church"; which was a nice euphemism for the pockets of the Inquisitor leadership. The Templars were, after all, richer than Croscious, as they were "in bed" with the Jewish Bankers from their beginnings, protecting the holdings of those men in the Holy Lands and thus becoming, through them, horrifyingly rich "investment brokers" at a time where it was held illegal and blasphemous for any "good Christian" to engage in usury (and thus major trade considerations as well). There is a reason after all that they (the Jews) were the other main target of the Inquisition (especially in Madrid and Toledo) when it really got underway. As to the main purpose of this post: If you can get your hands on the old 2nd edition (I think) version of "Chivalry and Sorcerery", one of the writers there, Ed Simbilast, did a superb job of recreating the actual ceremony that was long in use in Cornwall and Wales for the "Knighting of young Squires". Isshia
Fixxxer 06-08-05, 12:39 AM	Accurate, as usual, but there is one thing here that is being ignored. Very likely the REAL reason (and the largest reason) that the Inquisition went after the Templars as they did was that the Inquisitors wanted the rich lands and chattels of the Templars, since any "apostates" or "blasphemers" surrendered their rights to their lands and holdings to "mother Church"; which was a nice euphemism for the pockets of the Inquisitor leadership. Now, now... let's not go forgetting about King Philippe IV of France. Being a bit miffed at getting rejected for entry into the Templar organization and more than a little wary of the fact that he couldn't hope to raise a fighting force large enough to stop them, should they desire to see him dethroned, Philippe put into action a long-standing plan to bring the order under his control or bring it down. First, he kidnapped and murdered the only authority the Templars recognized, Pope Boniface VIII. Afterwards, when Pope Benedict XI proved difficult to influence, Philippe had him poisoned. Afterwards, Pope Clement V proved much easier to control, and on Friday, October 13, 1307 Philippe and his puppet pope had all Templar knights in France arrested (this is where the unlucky reputation of Friday the 13th comes from). If there's any one man that the downfall of the Templars can be blamed on, it's got to be King Philippe IV of France.
Cantankerous 06-08-05, 03:11 AM	I don't debate that ol' Phil the Poisoner instigated it, but the Inquisition was THRILLED to be the primary tool of choice in the final summation. Philly boy didn't get but a small portion of the real wealth of the Templars, the Office of the Holy Inquisition wound up with the great majority of it. Isshia
Venom of the Yuan Ti 06-08-05, 07:10 AM	Of course not all medieval knights were dubed in a cerimony. At one point any knight could make a knight, the tale fo the knights of the Hare is a good one to incorporate into D&D. (quite funny if told well) Battle lines drawn. :fight!: :fight!: English side lacking in knights to lead the charge, waiting for others to arive. :allalone: Dusk aproaches. :zzz: Suddenly the French knight more towards the English lines. :OMG! Present English knights run around making squires into knight like this touch shoulders "I dub the a knight!", them move on. :fight!: Knight quickly assemble to meet the charge. :help: French knight now turn around... :confused: Turns out they were hunting a hare to elivate the bordom. :dancin: The battle never took place and the knight made at that ocasion were known as the knights of the hare... :uh-huh:
Fixxxer 06-08-05, 04:53 PM	I don't debate that ol' Phil the Poisoner instigated it, but the Inquisition was THRILLED to be the primary tool of choice in the final summation. Philly boy didn't get but a small portion of the real wealth of the Templars, the Office of the Holy Inquisition wound up with the great majority of it. Granted. :)
Cymraegmorgan 06-08-05, 05:22 PM	I don't debate that ol' Phil the Poisoner instigated it, but the Inquisition was THRILLED to be the primary tool of choice in the final summation. Philly boy didn't get but a small portion of the real wealth of the Templars, the Office of the Holy Inquisition wound up with the great majority of it. Isshia First I must mock the Templars: And do not forget that most of Christendom was in an uproar over Templar thieving. The Templars started as for-hire bodyguards for pilgrims in the Holy Lands. Their wealth increased as they began carrying ransoms, then organizing kidnappings, etc. And since the Church considered Usury to be a sin, it was easy for Reformers to target the greedy Templars. Philip the Fair ruined the Templars in the way the Templars had ruined scores of lesser nobles. The Templars suffered the very abuses they were guilty of. Back on topic, the ceremony, if administered by the King himself should be as full of pomp and ceremony as you can muster. And let the political intrigue hit the fan bigtime after the ceremony, because suddenly the PCs are no longer pawns, but more active pieces in the power game.
Sinaz 06-08-05, 07:27 PM	Just blast the ending anthem from Star Wars Ep IV: A New Hope while you read the ceremony with a lot of gusto! Problem solved! :P
Lxarth 06-09-05, 12:14 PM	Back on topic... oh...I don't mind if you all want to talk about Templars, I got some good answers outta this anways, so hi-jack away! Oh...and the Knighting is not being done by the King. It's being done by a Lord, a Marquis to be presise. They have helped his out alot in there adventures and the last one prevented war with the elves. So they have earned it, to say the least. The players are really looking forward to it so I just don't wanna let them down.
Fixxxer 06-09-05, 03:14 PM	The players are really looking forward to it so I just don't wanna let them down. Are you sure you don't want to move to Florida and run a game I can play in? I can only hope I find a DM like you one day, Lxarth.
Cantankerous 06-10-05, 03:52 AM	First I must mock the Templars: And do not forget that most of Christendom was in an uproar over Templar thieving. *LOL* Most of Christendom had no idea what was going on. The average guy on the streets of Palermo heard the same rumors as were stated about the Templars about EVERY order of knighthood if he listened long enough. The Hospitaleirs and the Teutons were accused of similiar things, but even then most such talk was dismissed as heresy, especially if there was a templar or Teuton or Hospitalier around at the time. Historicly the Templars were more often involved with these shennanigans, but they hardly held a corner on the market. They were more hated in large part because they were richer. They were targeted, in no small part, because they were richer. Of course the biggest reason they were richer was because of their proto-association with the Jews. The Templars started as for-hire bodyguards for pilgrims in the Holy Lands. Their wealth increased as they began carrying ransoms, then organizing kidnappings, etc. And since the Church considered Usury to be a sin, it was easy for Reformers to target the greedy Templars. And a Hell of alot more profitable than targeting, say, the Hospitaliers, who were far from saintly themselves. And of course, the Holy Office of the Inquisition later twice attempted to force some of the booty old Phil had gained from the striking down of the Templars out of his hands, and both times were partially (the sencond time almost totally) succesful in getting everything they asked for, as Phillipe the Fair was savvy enough to realize that HE could quickly become Phillipe the Heretic if he wasn't damned careful of how he dealt with the suddenly much wealthier (and thus much more influential) Office of the Holy Inquisitor. Philip the Fair ruined the Templars in the way the Templars had ruined scores of lesser nobles. The Templars suffered the very abuses they were guilty of. Oh, absolutely! Mine in blue. And now, back to our topic: The striking of the young Knight was often harsh looking, but symbolic in nature. It carried a symbolism that went beyond the obvious. The young Knight was enjoined to accept no other blows unanswered. It was drilled into the Knight thus yet again that his primary business and value to society was to be war. It created a seperation between himself and the common man and called upon him to be the exemplar of all that was held to be manly. You could do worse than to use the ceremonial design to enforce whatever moral or ethical code is in place for the society from which your Marquis who is doing the Knighting. If it is the same use it as it stands, if it is different, subvert it to whatever that society holds as most vital. The Knight is a man set apart. One thing the ceremony should do is remind both the viewers and the new Knight of exactly that fact. And BTW, I agree with Fixxxer here. I hope the next DM I have is as dedicated to doing it right as you are. Kudos. Isshia