A little help creating a climatic battle please [Archive] - Wizards Community

A little help creating a climatic battle please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rasheem
02-07-04, 09:40 AM My group consists of a level 7 fighter, level 7 rouge and a level 7 mage 3rd Edition.

Through the entire campaign so far, the entire kingdom has been ravaged by a civil war. Choosing the Kings side, they have between other missions helped disrupted the enemys supply lines, defend the capital from an attack, find treasures to help fund the war, prevent the assanitation of the king, being attacked by the council of wrath, who was hired by the BBEG to take the out because of all their interference.

We are going to play next week, and I they will be asked to infiltrate the BBEG's castle and kill him. How the do it is up to them.
But. What should i equip the BBEG with to give them a challenge, and what level should he be? (They already know he is a blackguard, who formely served the king. Sometimes clichees are usefull)

What kind of equipment, should I allow them to buy before. Any suggestions, also to how to make the BBEG more memorable would be appreciated :)
Nightshade22
02-07-04, 10:20 AM well first off the level 7 ROUGE can... ;)

we need a bit more info on the player's powers ect., ect.
Xyplex
02-07-04, 05:49 PM The BBEG should be able to take down each of the players if they encounter him singly. That's just a must, so that they have to focus their efforts on him ... especially a BBEG that is direct in his confrontation (like Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, as opposed to Rogues, Wizards, Sorcerers, etc. ... Clerics and Druids kinda sit in the middle, and I'd tend to use them with minions mainly).

It's not so much a question of exactly what the BBEG should be equipped with but what characteristics you need to have the BBEG to have, so that he poses a challenge to the players.

But for starters, he's a Blackguard ... the feats are easy to figure out, but deciding what character classes are made up for the Blackguard are another matter. Bards, Monks, Rogues, and Rangers pick up ranks quickly in Hide (6 ranks required), so at least that's half of the multi-class (all if you chose to make a 8 Rogue-Monk-Bard / 1 Blackguard or 6 Ranger / 3 Blackguard ... I was imagining a 9th level character as being a good single challenge for a party of 3 7th level characters).

The base race of the BBEG is a must to know ... but it won't affect multi-classing all that much ... just say he has the extra XP needed to make the split. His race is probably something you've already alluded to, so that fixes that element.

In other regards, consider the BBEG as you would a player ... do you give your players max HP each level? Allow them to reroll if they roll low? Point based skill buy (and even if you use random rolls, the BBEG should be in the same ballpark as the PCs)? How magic heavy is your campaign, and how many magic items do the players have (and how strong are these items)?

A few basic things ... I'd have the BBEG's Attack bonus so that it is at least 8 points less than the Fighter's AC (or the highest AC in the party ... thus about 50% of the BBEG's attacks will land) ... and have his AC such that it is about 11 points higher than the highest attack bonus (both of these are assuming buffed levels) so that only 32% of attacks will land against him (balances out the fact that he's being attacked by multiple people so that what they lose in 'quality' they make up for in quantity).

Further, do you plan on having the Blackguard focus on the feats that are required (Power attack, Improved Sunder, Cleave ... the last one isn't that usefull against PC class characters)? Will he invest in Adamantine weapons, so that (at least in 3.5) he can Sunder with impunity (and, to add further injustice to injury, use a Two handed weapon ... the Great Sword beats out most for damage potential) ... Improved Critical, Keen Weapons, etc.?

Really the concept that you decide for the BBEG will have a great impact on how you'll play him.

******

Here I'll put down what I think the BBEG should look like.

6 Rng / 3 Blackguard
Human

Str - 16
Dex - 14
Con - 12
Wis - 14
Int - 10
Cha - 8

Feats - Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Leadership, Combat Brute (from Complete Warrior), Endurance (class Feature), Track (class Feature)

Features - Favored Enemy (Predominant race of Kingdom), 2nd Favored Enemy (2nd most Predominant race of Kingdom), Wild Empathy, Improved Combat Style (2 weapons), Animal Companion, Detect Good, Aura of Evil, Poison Use, Dark blessing, Smite good 1/day, Command Undead, Aura of Despair

Skills
Concentration - (7+1=8)
Hide - (10+2-2=10)
Intimidate - (6-1=5)
Knowledge (religion) - (2)
Listen - (5+2=7)
Move Silently - (8+2-2=8)
Spot - (5+2=7)
Survival - (6+2=8)

Spells -
Ranger
1st Level - 2 (usually Resist Energy and Alarm)
Blackguard
1st Level - 2 (usually Doom and Cure Light Wounds)
2nd Level - 1 (usually Shatter)

Equipment -
Chain Shirt +3, SR 13
Greataxe +2, Keen, Thundering
Warhammer +1, Bane (Predominant race of Kingdom)
Hammer, Light +1, Bane (2nd most Predominant race of Kingdom)
Ring of Force Shield
Immovable Rod
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Cloak of Resistance +3
Potion of Bull's Strength
Potion of Enlarge Person
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds
2x Vial of Medium Spider Venom poison (DC 14, 1d4 Str, 1d4 Str)

(As you can see, I really don't care so much as how expensive something is, but what it's purpose is)

The way I see it, is he'd lay down the Alarm spell as soon as he gets word that the castle is under attack ... or before he goes to bed if the castle isn't during his waking hours. This should give him enough time (while the PCs deal with whatever lock / traps / minions he has placed to defend himself) to don armor, get weapons, cast Resist Energy (the type he has been told the spellcaster usually uses), and drink the Potion of Bull's Strength before going out to engage his 'guests'.

From there, as he advanced, he'd try to intimidate (standard action) the most exposed character (likely the Fighter out front, but if he can go after one of the weaker character's he would). If he succeeded, he'd charge that character. Otherwise, he'd move into H2H using the Hammers ... as things got worse, he'd back off, 5ft, drinking the Enlarge Person potion (standard action), dropping the Hammers (free action), and drawing his Battleaxe (move action). Next round he'd distance himself and use Shatter on the most dangerous weapon used against him (30lbs limit). Then he'd move back in and start sundering shields, swords, wands, and anything else that he could (it's kinda scary ... +4 for Improved Sunder, +4 for increased size, +4 for two handed weapon (all to attack rolls)) ... and because of the Combat Brute feat if he succeeded in breaking an item, he'd get another normal attack against that opponent (it doesn't say one way or the other, but I wouldn't have it at the additional +12, just the normal attack bonus).

Whenever nessisary, he'd pull back (move action around corners and such) to cast Cure Light Wounds, drink his potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (both Standard Actions), and apply the poison to his Axe.

Thoughout this, his animal Companion, a wolf, would be trying to bite opponents, forcing free trip attempts ... which our Blackguard would capitalize on by attacking the downed character.
myri
02-07-04, 06:06 PM I once set up a dragons lair with a twist. The BBEG enemy was a black dragon that the PCs were going to fight.
BUT, to make it a little harder on the PCs, the black dragon had two human children it was raising. They were in their early 20s I believe - one male and one female. As soon as one of the kids call the black dragon 'daddy' the PCs were thrown into confusion over what to do.

My point is that having some kind of innocent with your BBEG could cause your PCs to think some before rushing into kill. The innocent could be a bodyguard or loyal servant. The innocent could be acting (and thus NOT really innocent) or truly innocent.
And I don't mean a prisoner either. It's someone who's there of their own free will or by some non coercive circumstance.

Perhaps the innocent is a devoted defender? It'd be hard to kill the BBEG withouth seriously harming or killing the DD in this case.

If you want him to be memorable, give him some kind of unique ability or trait - like spellfire. It doesn't have to be super deadly, but it makes him stand out compared to the rabble.
LordMacbeth
02-07-04, 07:18 PM "So, you have come, the kings men. Are you ready to collect your pound of flesh?.......Well, here I stand, a nigh defeated man. Trapped like an annimal, ready to be put to the sword. Don't worry about the guards, unlke your King, I do not hide behind my minions. I will not run, I could not have wished for a better way to die, assailed by my many enemies.....We shall not begin yet, I have one last request to make. I wish to die honorably, not cut down like some ordinary traitor, I wish to die with my sword in my hand, and my wounds to the front. I have fought far too long, and too well, to deserve anything else. Do not look at me like that! With your veild comtempt, you think you can judge me? I too fought for the King in my youth, my blood dripped onto the same fields as yours......There is only crime that seperates us....And what of that crime? If I was the victor, what would you have done but cheered me? The man who defeated a tyrant...And that is what your King is...A Tyrant...you do not see it now. Only when I am dead, and you have seen your friends cut down beside you, as I have, will you see the truth in my words. Come....let us begin....let us fight a battle that will live in legend!"

-Possible quote for your villian

The most memorable battles are not the ones that you barly win.....they are the ones you wish had never been fought...
Yoho1.5
02-07-04, 07:26 PM Big boss fights need more than just a good boss to be memorable (the above posters BBEG is a good one). You need a good setting as well. Your BBEG is a fighter type so you need a good and dangerous place to duel, perhaps a parapet, or a bridge, or a circular staircase. You also need some embiance, like a lighting storm, or a dreadful ritual with ominous chanting in the back ground. Also you will need some lackeys to keep the players attention divided (so they don't instakill the BBEG) and it gives everyone in the party something to do. Perhaps an archer, or two, or three on distant balcony sniping at the party spellcasters, some low level orc fighters to come in as reinforcements after the combat has begun. Your lackeys shouldn't be too deadly, they should be speed bumps in the final battle. Watch any James Bond movie and you will now what I mean; the lackeys are the guys in the coloured jumpsuits that go down with one judo chop. Lastly you need some non-combat things to do like unchain some prisnors, or slam a door shut before more guards arrive, this keeps everyone in the game even the not-so combat oriented classes, and the roleplayers. Good Luck! tell us how it went.
Rasheem
02-09-04, 04:23 PM Thanks for the input everyone :)

I want him to be memorable by combining the two traits of a hard fight, or for startes just not one where the BBEG gets pummeled in two rounds (exagaration helps) and the good setting with narrative and some speech if possible.

I migt even use Macbeths speech completly as it actually fits very well to the carachter, If I may be allowed by Macbeth. As for settings: I have planned several places where they can encounter him, given what kind of way the choose to infiltrate his keep. (though remebering my DMing rule nr1: "Nothing ever goes as planned", I'm almost certain they'll do something I haven't thought of).

1) In the tempel of Hextor in the keep where he prays at least once a week. There they would have to hold of guards rushing to his side through the entrance, the sound of steel against steel in the tempel under the symbol of Hextor, around the altar.....you get the idea ;)
Any comments of how to make it better? or point out flaws?

2)A bridge over a pass in the mountains, where his keep is situated. He inspects parts of the region he controlls every week. This way, they may cause a "stoneslide" (don't know the proper english word sorry), and seperate him completly from his escorts save from a loyal man servant (think circero in gladiator). Then it is him against them on the brigde over the ridge/chasm.
Again: Any comments would be much appreciated. Also suggestion as to good narratives :)

3)His personal chambers. I guess this is the most likely if the infiltrate his keeps, either as part of his army or in a commando-strike. Here I'm a bit stumped. How do you that setting memorable?

The BBEG himself: His a fighter/blackguard. I think I'll use much of the gear Xyplex suggested, allthough I'll make him more charismatic at the expense of dexterity.

Hope anyone will comment again :).
(I apologies for any -most likely numerous- spelling errors I have made)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rasheem 02-07-04, 09:40 AM	My group consists of a level 7 fighter, level 7 rouge and a level 7 mage 3rd Edition. Through the entire campaign so far, the entire kingdom has been ravaged by a civil war. Choosing the Kings side, they have between other missions helped disrupted the enemys supply lines, defend the capital from an attack, find treasures to help fund the war, prevent the assanitation of the king, being attacked by the council of wrath, who was hired by the BBEG to take the out because of all their interference. We are going to play next week, and I they will be asked to infiltrate the BBEG's castle and kill him. How the do it is up to them. But. What should i equip the BBEG with to give them a challenge, and what level should he be? (They already know he is a blackguard, who formely served the king. Sometimes clichees are usefull) What kind of equipment, should I allow them to buy before. Any suggestions, also to how to make the BBEG more memorable would be appreciated :)
Nightshade22 02-07-04, 10:20 AM	well first off the level 7 ROUGE can... ;) we need a bit more info on the player's powers ect., ect.
Xyplex 02-07-04, 05:49 PM	The BBEG should be able to take down each of the players if they encounter him singly. That's just a must, so that they have to focus their efforts on him ... especially a BBEG that is direct in his confrontation (like Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, as opposed to Rogues, Wizards, Sorcerers, etc. ... Clerics and Druids kinda sit in the middle, and I'd tend to use them with minions mainly). It's not so much a question of exactly what the BBEG should be equipped with but what characteristics you need to have the BBEG to have, so that he poses a challenge to the players. But for starters, he's a Blackguard ... the feats are easy to figure out, but deciding what character classes are made up for the Blackguard are another matter. Bards, Monks, Rogues, and Rangers pick up ranks quickly in Hide (6 ranks required), so at least that's half of the multi-class (all if you chose to make a 8 Rogue-Monk-Bard / 1 Blackguard or 6 Ranger / 3 Blackguard ... I was imagining a 9th level character as being a good single challenge for a party of 3 7th level characters). The base race of the BBEG is a must to know ... but it won't affect multi-classing all that much ... just say he has the extra XP needed to make the split. His race is probably something you've already alluded to, so that fixes that element. In other regards, consider the BBEG as you would a player ... do you give your players max HP each level? Allow them to reroll if they roll low? Point based skill buy (and even if you use random rolls, the BBEG should be in the same ballpark as the PCs)? How magic heavy is your campaign, and how many magic items do the players have (and how strong are these items)? A few basic things ... I'd have the BBEG's Attack bonus so that it is at least 8 points less than the Fighter's AC (or the highest AC in the party ... thus about 50% of the BBEG's attacks will land) ... and have his AC such that it is about 11 points higher than the highest attack bonus (both of these are assuming buffed levels) so that only 32% of attacks will land against him (balances out the fact that he's being attacked by multiple people so that what they lose in 'quality' they make up for in quantity). Further, do you plan on having the Blackguard focus on the feats that are required (Power attack, Improved Sunder, Cleave ... the last one isn't that usefull against PC class characters)? Will he invest in Adamantine weapons, so that (at least in 3.5) he can Sunder with impunity (and, to add further injustice to injury, use a Two handed weapon ... the Great Sword beats out most for damage potential) ... Improved Critical, Keen Weapons, etc.? Really the concept that you decide for the BBEG will have a great impact on how you'll play him. ****** Here I'll put down what I think the BBEG should look like. 6 Rng / 3 Blackguard Human Str - 16 Dex - 14 Con - 12 Wis - 14 Int - 10 Cha - 8 Feats - Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Leadership, Combat Brute (from Complete Warrior), Endurance (class Feature), Track (class Feature) Features - Favored Enemy (Predominant race of Kingdom), 2nd Favored Enemy (2nd most Predominant race of Kingdom), Wild Empathy, Improved Combat Style (2 weapons), Animal Companion, Detect Good, Aura of Evil, Poison Use, Dark blessing, Smite good 1/day, Command Undead, Aura of Despair Skills Concentration - (7+1=8) Hide - (10+2-2=10) Intimidate - (6-1=5) Knowledge (religion) - (2) Listen - (5+2=7) Move Silently - (8+2-2=8) Spot - (5+2=7) Survival - (6+2=8) Spells - Ranger 1st Level - 2 (usually Resist Energy and Alarm) Blackguard 1st Level - 2 (usually Doom and Cure Light Wounds) 2nd Level - 1 (usually Shatter) Equipment - Chain Shirt +3, SR 13 Greataxe +2, Keen, Thundering Warhammer +1, Bane (Predominant race of Kingdom) Hammer, Light +1, Bane (2nd most Predominant race of Kingdom) Ring of Force Shield Immovable Rod Amulet of Natural Armor +2 Cloak of Resistance +3 Potion of Bull's Strength Potion of Enlarge Person Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds 2x Vial of Medium Spider Venom poison (DC 14, 1d4 Str, 1d4 Str) (As you can see, I really don't care so much as how expensive something is, but what it's purpose is) The way I see it, is he'd lay down the Alarm spell as soon as he gets word that the castle is under attack ... or before he goes to bed if the castle isn't during his waking hours. This should give him enough time (while the PCs deal with whatever lock / traps / minions he has placed to defend himself) to don armor, get weapons, cast Resist Energy (the type he has been told the spellcaster usually uses), and drink the Potion of Bull's Strength before going out to engage his 'guests'. From there, as he advanced, he'd try to intimidate (standard action) the most exposed character (likely the Fighter out front, but if he can go after one of the weaker character's he would). If he succeeded, he'd charge that character. Otherwise, he'd move into H2H using the Hammers ... as things got worse, he'd back off, 5ft, drinking the Enlarge Person potion (standard action), dropping the Hammers (free action), and drawing his Battleaxe (move action). Next round he'd distance himself and use Shatter on the most dangerous weapon used against him (30lbs limit). Then he'd move back in and start sundering shields, swords, wands, and anything else that he could (it's kinda scary ... +4 for Improved Sunder, +4 for increased size, +4 for two handed weapon (all to attack rolls)) ... and because of the Combat Brute feat if he succeeded in breaking an item, he'd get another normal attack against that opponent (it doesn't say one way or the other, but I wouldn't have it at the additional +12, just the normal attack bonus). Whenever nessisary, he'd pull back (move action around corners and such) to cast Cure Light Wounds, drink his potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (both Standard Actions), and apply the poison to his Axe. Thoughout this, his animal Companion, a wolf, would be trying to bite opponents, forcing free trip attempts ... which our Blackguard would capitalize on by attacking the downed character.
myri 02-07-04, 06:06 PM	I once set up a dragons lair with a twist. The BBEG enemy was a black dragon that the PCs were going to fight. BUT, to make it a little harder on the PCs, the black dragon had two human children it was raising. They were in their early 20s I believe - one male and one female. As soon as one of the kids call the black dragon 'daddy' the PCs were thrown into confusion over what to do. My point is that having some kind of innocent with your BBEG could cause your PCs to think some before rushing into kill. The innocent could be a bodyguard or loyal servant. The innocent could be acting (and thus NOT really innocent) or truly innocent. And I don't mean a prisoner either. It's someone who's there of their own free will or by some non coercive circumstance. Perhaps the innocent is a devoted defender? It'd be hard to kill the BBEG withouth seriously harming or killing the DD in this case. If you want him to be memorable, give him some kind of unique ability or trait - like spellfire. It doesn't have to be super deadly, but it makes him stand out compared to the rabble.
LordMacbeth 02-07-04, 07:18 PM	"So, you have come, the kings men. Are you ready to collect your pound of flesh?.......Well, here I stand, a nigh defeated man. Trapped like an annimal, ready to be put to the sword. Don't worry about the guards, unlke your King, I do not hide behind my minions. I will not run, I could not have wished for a better way to die, assailed by my many enemies.....We shall not begin yet, I have one last request to make. I wish to die honorably, not cut down like some ordinary traitor, I wish to die with my sword in my hand, and my wounds to the front. I have fought far too long, and too well, to deserve anything else. Do not look at me like that! With your veild comtempt, you think you can judge me? I too fought for the King in my youth, my blood dripped onto the same fields as yours......There is only crime that seperates us....And what of that crime? If I was the victor, what would you have done but cheered me? The man who defeated a tyrant...And that is what your King is...A Tyrant...you do not see it now. Only when I am dead, and you have seen your friends cut down beside you, as I have, will you see the truth in my words. Come....let us begin....let us fight a battle that will live in legend!" -Possible quote for your villian The most memorable battles are not the ones that you barly win.....they are the ones you wish had never been fought...
Yoho1.5 02-07-04, 07:26 PM	Big boss fights need more than just a good boss to be memorable (the above posters BBEG is a good one). You need a good setting as well. Your BBEG is a fighter type so you need a good and dangerous place to duel, perhaps a parapet, or a bridge, or a circular staircase. You also need some embiance, like a lighting storm, or a dreadful ritual with ominous chanting in the back ground. Also you will need some lackeys to keep the players attention divided (so they don't instakill the BBEG) and it gives everyone in the party something to do. Perhaps an archer, or two, or three on distant balcony sniping at the party spellcasters, some low level orc fighters to come in as reinforcements after the combat has begun. Your lackeys shouldn't be too deadly, they should be speed bumps in the final battle. Watch any James Bond movie and you will now what I mean; the lackeys are the guys in the coloured jumpsuits that go down with one judo chop. Lastly you need some non-combat things to do like unchain some prisnors, or slam a door shut before more guards arrive, this keeps everyone in the game even the not-so combat oriented classes, and the roleplayers. Good Luck! tell us how it went.
Rasheem 02-09-04, 04:23 PM	Thanks for the input everyone :) I want him to be memorable by combining the two traits of a hard fight, or for startes just not one where the BBEG gets pummeled in two rounds (exagaration helps) and the good setting with narrative and some speech if possible. I migt even use Macbeths speech completly as it actually fits very well to the carachter, If I may be allowed by Macbeth. As for settings: I have planned several places where they can encounter him, given what kind of way the choose to infiltrate his keep. (though remebering my DMing rule nr1: "Nothing ever goes as planned", I'm almost certain they'll do something I haven't thought of). 1) In the tempel of Hextor in the keep where he prays at least once a week. There they would have to hold of guards rushing to his side through the entrance, the sound of steel against steel in the tempel under the symbol of Hextor, around the altar.....you get the idea ;) Any comments of how to make it better? or point out flaws? 2)A bridge over a pass in the mountains, where his keep is situated. He inspects parts of the region he controlls every week. This way, they may cause a "stoneslide" (don't know the proper english word sorry), and seperate him completly from his escorts save from a loyal man servant (think circero in gladiator). Then it is him against them on the brigde over the ridge/chasm. Again: Any comments would be much appreciated. Also suggestion as to good narratives :) 3)His personal chambers. I guess this is the most likely if the infiltrate his keeps, either as part of his army or in a commando-strike. Here I'm a bit stumped. How do you that setting memorable? The BBEG himself: His a fighter/blackguard. I think I'll use much of the gear Xyplex suggested, allthough I'll make him more charismatic at the expense of dexterity. Hope anyone will comment again :). (I apologies for any -most likely numerous- spelling errors I have made)