A little help with adding the werewolf template to a PC... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A little help with adding the werewolf template to a PC... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Robmansz
09-16-05, 05:14 AM Hi,

one of my PCs (dwarf) has contracted lycantrophy from a werewolf in wolf form, thus he has no idea.

When it's time for his first involuntary shapechange, does he get trapped into his fullplate..?

I don't think the armor is destroyed in the process because both a dwarf and a wolf are of medium size.

thx for your reply.

Robmansz
Deacon Liadon
09-16-05, 08:23 AM You could just make the change as the spell Polymorph and have the armour merge with the dwarf.
imperialjunkie
09-16-05, 08:58 AM The MM seems to indicate that if the base creature and the alternate forms are the same size that the armor is unaffected. I might rule this for hybrid form, but not for animal form. The body shape of a four legged wolf is quite a bit different from a dwarf. With the involuntary changes, I would probably rule that the lycanthrope changes to animal form and the armor is damaged but not ruined; it needs repair on the straps. But a voluntary shapechange to hybrid form would allow him/her to retain the armor.

There's a great resource on the Wizards main site for lycanthrope PCs. Gives level progressions for the templates. Here's the link:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp (http://)
Lord Ian Stark
09-16-05, 10:09 AM The MM seems to indicate that if the base creature and the alternate forms are the same size that the armor is unaffected.

Yes sir. As long as you stay a medium size creature you don't brake anything. It just falls off or you can take off the armor during the change. (If you know what's going on as your Dwarf here won't for a bit. LOL)

Just FYI if the Dwarf wants to keep his new found affliction he will end up becoming Evil (If the werewolf was evil that bit him). If that's ok with the group then kudos. Just make sure his playstyle reflects the new evil side. ;) Also he is going to be more powerful than the others in the group too. But I'm sure you know all this. :D
Chobemaster
09-16-05, 10:34 AM There was an old Dragon magazine, in either the late double digit #'s or early 100's, IIRC, that had a table for damage caused by armor during transformation before the armor breaks.
revnk
09-16-05, 10:46 AM Does he have to change while he's in his armor at all? Unless he's adventuring at night, I imagine you could conveniently "schedule" moonrise to occur after the party has made camp or checked into an inn for the night. Presumably he's not trying to bunk down in full plate. That may also avoid some other problems, e.g. do you really want him to transform while the party is meandering along, possibly forcing a fight between the dwarf-wolf and the rest of the group?

Personally, I'd have him awaken the following morning in his bedroll or bunk wearing shredded nightclothes, covered in blood (his own? an animal's? a humanoid's?), tired after a night of strange dreams. Kind of cliched, I know, but sometimes those classics become cliches because they work. And it does avoid problems of equipment loss and damage, etc.

Hope that helps.
Robmansz
09-19-05, 10:58 AM Hi all,

thx for your replies.

Imperialjunkie, i can't access the link you posted. Is there perhaps some other related thread you know of..?

So werewolf templated PCs don't level up by class anymore..? Now that's a shock for my player, i think. He has his PC planned up till lvl 20, better look for another carreer. :eek:

Robmansz
Lord Ian Stark
09-20-05, 12:49 AM Hi all,

thx for your replies.

Imperialjunkie, i can't access the link you posted. Is there perhaps some other related thread you know of..?

So werewolf templated PCs don't level up by class anymore..? Now that's a shock for my player, i think. He has his PC planned up till lvl 20, better look for another carreer. :eek:

Robmansz

After you add the racial HD and LA he can then advance in class levels when the party's level equals his ECL. Get it?
Robmansz
09-20-05, 03:41 AM Ian, you're saying(?):

All members of the party are lvl7, by adding the Werewolf Template the dwarf gets an ECL of 9. He would then not be able to lvl up until the party turns lvl 10..?

Isn't it more reasonable to calculate xp normally for the party (lvl 7) and for the (Werewolf) dwarf as if he were lvl 9 considering his +2 ECL..?

Robmansz
Lord Ian Stark
09-20-05, 04:20 AM You through me off by saying that the were-wolf no longer advances in class levels. I was just saying he will.

You never mentioned the party level either. But yeah he will gain EXP slower than the party members as he will be 3 (2 Racial HD and +1 LA afflicted)levels higher ECL wise. (I don't have my MM with me but I think that's right)

How is the alignment part going?
Robmansz
09-20-05, 07:09 AM For Alignment changes i stick with the literature (MM). I read the afflicted PCs' alignment changes to that of its lycanthropic animal form. Wolves are Neutral, so the PCs alignment changes from CG to Neutral.

Ian, some posts back you mentioned that in time the PCs' alignment would change to Evil (if the werewolf that bit him was Evil) but i cannot find any rules supporting that.

As for the RPG part, i don't think there's gonna be a problem. :smirk:

Robmansz.
LostTemplar
09-20-05, 07:13 AM I believe the armour and equipment he carries shift fully with him, losing all of their abilities. In essence, I believe it is similar to the Polymorph spell yes.
Lord Ian Stark
09-21-05, 01:23 AM For Alignment changes i stick with the literature (MM). I read the afflicted PCs' alignment changes to that of its lycanthropic animal form. Wolves are Neutral, so the PCs alignment changes from CG to Neutral.

Ian, some posts back you mentioned that in time the PCs' alignment would change to Evil (if the werewolf that bit him was Evil) but i cannot find any rules supporting that.

Ah I see where you are reading that. Yeah the MM contradicts itself on the alignment part. On page 178 of the MM 3.5 look just above the "LYCANTHROPY AS AN AFFLICTION" topic. There is a "Common Lycanthropes" table there that shows the animals, the ability modifiers and prefered alignment. The Werewolf is labeled CE there. Also the stat blocks for the Werewolf has him "Always Chaotic Evil." But you can make them any alignment as there are werewolves in FR that are LG too.

So the MM doesn't make sense when it says all were creatures take the alignment of the base animal because according to page 268 in the MM 3.5 ALL animals are neutral in alignment. :confused: :twitch:

Also I was off about the Racial HD and LA of an afflicted Werewolf. It has 1 Racial HD and a +2 LA. So the PC will be 3 ECL's higher than the average creature.
Colmarr
09-21-05, 01:51 AM Note that the alignment sections of the MM lycanthropy entry means different things at different times. Sticking with afflicted lycanthropes to keep things simple, we start with this:

Any player character not yet aware of his or her lycanthropic condition temporarily becomes an NPC during an involuntary change, and acts according to the alignment of his or her animal form.

While an (unwitting) afflicted lycanthrope is in its animal form, its alignment is neutral*. It is no longer in sentient control of its body and is outside the realm of right or wrong. If it is hungry and sees a food source (such as a young child), it will eat it. It will not protect its companions, whom it no longer recognises. It will not remain in an area it was ordered to guard. The MM even goes so far as to say the creature temporarily becomes an NPC.

When the character reverts back to their usual humanoid form, their alignment returns to normal, so long as they remain unaware of their affliction.

However, once the character becomes aware of their lycanthropy, he:

does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.

Ie. the character struggles against his animal instincts. If he fails, his morals are subsumed by the "law of the jungle" and he permanently becomes neutral*.

Any attempt to voluntarily change form after becoming aware of the affliction:

immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope.

Note that the reference is to the "appropriate lycanthrope", not the "appropriate animal". To find out the alignment of the appropriate lycanthrope , you look at the "Common lycanthropes" table. If that doesn't help, note that the alignment section of the template says:

Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.

Although that's only a guideline, weresharks, weresnakes, and wereeels are all likely to be (chaotic?) evil, reflecting their perception as dangerous untrustworthy creatures. Wereeagles, werelions, and weredogs are likely to be (lawful?) good, reflecting their perception as proud, noble, or helpful.

As for the dwarf the subject of the thread, if he struggles against his lycanthropy, there is a chance that he will retain his alignment, or at worst become neutral. If he voluntarily changes form, per RAW he immediately become Chaotic Evil. Of course, DM's have a funny way of house-ruling things like this ;)

* It is possible that there is an animal that is not neutral, but like Lord Ian, I can't think of one. Fiendish/celestial changes the animal to a magical beast, and it is no longer qualifies for lycanthropy. Half-fiend/celestial make the animal an outsider, with the same effect.
Robmansz
09-21-05, 04:55 AM Thx Colmar,

that puts things in perspective, in short i think i will rule as follows:

First there will be the period in which the PC dwarf will find out something is wrong, eventually leading to the discovery of him being diseased with lycanthrophy.

If the dwarf fights the urges of his affliction his allignment changes to neutral, as i want some sign of his inner struggle. His alignment will change back once cured. He will become Chaotic Evil if he embraces his affliction and then becomes a "real" werewolf. There will be no way back for him on his own. :evillaugh His only chance to be cured of the lycanthrope disease will be if he is somehow discovered, caught and cured (as described in MM) by his party members.

One more thing, if he is killed and raised, will he be free of the disease..? As his creature type has changed from humanoid to shapechanger, i would say he's still diseased but i'm not sure.

Robmansz
Lord Ian Stark
09-21-05, 05:37 AM One more thing, if he is killed and raised, will he be free of the disease..? As his creature type has changed from humanoid to shapechanger, i would say he's still diseased but i'm not sure.

Robmansz

A simple raise dead spell won't cure him but a resurrection or true resurrection will.
Robmansz
09-21-05, 06:55 AM Thx

Robmansz :plotting:
Millennium
09-21-05, 07:03 AM I'd handle the alignment changes this way: at points where he has to make ethical or moral decisions, he starts feeling instinctive urges to act in a CE manner. At first make these just roleplay details; he can shrug them off with no trouble. After the first few, require a Will save (DC 10) the next time; failure means he must act on the urges (treat this like a magical compulsion in cases where acting CE could cause problems). Up the DC by 1 every time he has to roll it, and also every time he makes an involuntary transformation, as the urges get stronger. If he ever makes a voluntary transformation or decides to accept the curse then his alignment changes (the urges don't actually stop, but they become indistinguishable from his own thought patterns).

Don't do this if you aren't comfortable with the possibility of his accepting the change, or if you're not prepared to offer him a chance to cure the lycanthropy if he decides he doesn't want it. Also, be prepared for the possibility that he'll find ways around it, such as Savage Species' Ritual of Alignment or the atonement spell.
ShadowDragon8685
09-21-05, 08:38 AM And if you decide to go for forced alignment changes, be prepared to hand out 4d6. I'd rather play an entirely new character than a DM-fiat'd TWISTED MOCKERY of what was once my character.
Robmansz
09-21-05, 11:55 AM Hi all,

I'd handle the alignment changes this way: at points where he has to make ethical or moral decisions, he starts feeling instinctive urges to act in a CE manner. At first make these just roleplay details; he can shrug them off with no trouble. After the first few, require a Will save (DC 10) the next time; failure means he must act on the urges (treat this like a magical compulsion in cases where acting CE could cause problems). Up the DC by 1 every time he has to roll it, and also every time he makes an involuntary transformation, as the urges get stronger. The template has some advantages, especially for the party's main fighter, these rules see to it that it's experienced as a curse rather than a blessing. Still, i first want to see how it goes without forcing Player and DM (me) alike. I have good faith...

I'd rather play an entirely new character than a DM-fiat'd TWISTED MOCKERY of what was once my character. Seems like you've had you're share of that. Not to worry, i've already talked things over with my friend and offered him a way out but he wants to play the Werewolf.

If he ever makes a voluntary transformation or decides to accept the curse then his alignment changes (the urges don't actually stop, but they become indistinguishable from his own thought patterns). That's exactly what i had in mind.

I have to tell you, i'm sooooo gonna enjoy the shocked faces of the other players when they find out. :evillaugh
Tacomannerism
09-21-05, 01:27 PM for the sake of discussion:

let's assume that there's a PC affected with Lycanthropy (werewolf ) and that they are aware of the condition. Let's assume they are one of the three good alignments. Finally, let's assume that this PC saw an innocent child in the street, corned by a pack of wild dogs. The PC knows they are not strong enough to repel the dogs without shapechanging voluntarily to their bybrid form. The PC proceeds to shapechange (perhaps making a successfuly Will save) and saves the child at the risk of this shape change.

Possible? Plausible?

How do you feel about the use of will saves in this situation to show the PC "fighting" the chaotic evil nature of the werewolf in order to achieve Good goals? If the character fails the save, perhaps it would jump in on the fight to take the child for itself and scare off the dogs?
Colmarr
09-21-05, 11:12 PM Thx ColmarNo problem :)

The PC knows they are not strong enough to repel the dogs without shapechanging voluntarily to their bybrid form. The PC proceeds to shapechange (perhaps making a successfuly Will save) and saves the child at the risk of this shape change.

Possible? Plausible?

How do you feel about the use of will saves in this situation to show the PC "fighting" the chaotic evil nature of the werewolf in order to achieve Good goals? If the character fails the save, perhaps it would jump in on the fight to take the child for itself and scare off the dogs? Per RAW, any voluntary shapechange immediately and permanently changes the character's alignment. No ifs or buts about it.

Feel free to house-rule otherwise, but lycanthropes in D&D are generally bad guys, and introducing subjective alignment into the system mid-campaign can make life very hard for PCs, particularly those with alignment restrictions and codes of conduct.

"Oh well, paladin, you just killed the lawful neutral vampire who has been fighting crime in the city for 100 years. I'm sorry but Heironeous doesn't like you any more..."
Mystyc
09-21-05, 11:31 PM for the sake of discussion:

let's assume that there's a PC affected with Lycanthropy (werewolf ) and that they are aware of the condition. Let's assume they are one of the three good alignments. Finally, let's assume that this PC saw an innocent child in the street, corned by a pack of wild dogs. The PC knows they are not strong enough to repel the dogs without shapechanging voluntarily to their bybrid form. The PC proceeds to shapechange (perhaps making a successfuly Will save) and saves the child at the risk of this shape change.

Possible? Plausible?

How do you feel about the use of will saves in this situation to show the PC "fighting" the chaotic evil nature of the werewolf in order to achieve Good goals? If the character fails the save, perhaps it would jump in on the fight to take the child for itself and scare off the dogs?
Page 303 of the Monster Manual details the Control Shape skill, which becomes a class skill for any character that is aware of their lycanthropy. It uses the WIS modifier, and the check (which is not designated "Trained Only") to induce a change to animal form when it isn't a full moon is given as 20, with retries as a standard action. Changing to hybrid form is DC 15. Voluntarily changing back is also DC 20, but can't be retried, so a fail means the character must wait until dawn.

If the character wants to preserve their alignment (which it doesn't say anything about in the skill description), I could see allowing them to hang on to themselves as long as they beat the check by 5.
imperialjunkie
09-21-05, 11:35 PM No problem :)

Per RAW, any voluntary shapechange immediately and permanently changes the character's alignment. No ifs or buts about it.

Feel free to house-rule otherwise, but lycanthropes in D&D are generally bad guys, and introducing subjective alignment into the system mid-campaign can make life very hard for PCs, particularly those with alignment restrictions and codes of conduct.

"Oh well, paladin, you just killed the lawful neutral vampire who has been fighting crime in the city for 100 years. I'm sorry but Heironeous doesn't like you any more..."

Tacomannerism is in my game. We have houseruled alignment stuff, giving an alignment rating that can slowly change based on player actions. I've nerfed the alignment affects of lycanthropy in order to make it more feasible for a PC to become a werewolf. If you want the details, ask me. The alignment rating is working great so far.

Robmansz, sorry my link didn't work. Try this one- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a. It should go straight to the werewolf template class.
Robmansz
09-26-05, 08:41 AM After having talked all this over with my friend some questions remain:

Can the dwarf werewolf (in Hybrid form) still:

- effectively wear his armor (does it still function as such)..?
- hold and swing his axe (yes probably)..?
- use potions etc.

I'm asking because it says the hybrid form has prehensile hands, i can't find any definite ruling...

Does he gain the full 15/silver damage reduction, being an afflicted- not born werewolf..?

Thx again for your advise,

Robmansz

Note: We are still in the 3.0 Ed. days.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Robmansz 09-16-05, 05:14 AM	Hi, one of my PCs (dwarf) has contracted lycantrophy from a werewolf in wolf form, thus he has no idea. When it's time for his first involuntary shapechange, does he get trapped into his fullplate..? I don't think the armor is destroyed in the process because both a dwarf and a wolf are of medium size. thx for your reply. Robmansz
Deacon Liadon 09-16-05, 08:23 AM	You could just make the change as the spell Polymorph and have the armour merge with the dwarf.
imperialjunkie 09-16-05, 08:58 AM	The MM seems to indicate that if the base creature and the alternate forms are the same size that the armor is unaffected. I might rule this for hybrid form, but not for animal form. The body shape of a four legged wolf is quite a bit different from a dwarf. With the involuntary changes, I would probably rule that the lycanthrope changes to animal form and the armor is damaged but not ruined; it needs repair on the straps. But a voluntary shapechange to hybrid form would allow him/her to retain the armor. There's a great resource on the Wizards main site for lycanthrope PCs. Gives level progressions for the templates. Here's the link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp (http://)
Lord Ian Stark 09-16-05, 10:09 AM	The MM seems to indicate that if the base creature and the alternate forms are the same size that the armor is unaffected. Yes sir. As long as you stay a medium size creature you don't brake anything. It just falls off or you can take off the armor during the change. (If you know what's going on as your Dwarf here won't for a bit. LOL) Just FYI if the Dwarf wants to keep his new found affliction he will end up becoming Evil (If the werewolf was evil that bit him). If that's ok with the group then kudos. Just make sure his playstyle reflects the new evil side. ;) Also he is going to be more powerful than the others in the group too. But I'm sure you know all this. :D
Chobemaster 09-16-05, 10:34 AM	There was an old Dragon magazine, in either the late double digit #'s or early 100's, IIRC, that had a table for damage caused by armor during transformation before the armor breaks.
revnk 09-16-05, 10:46 AM	Does he have to change while he's in his armor at all? Unless he's adventuring at night, I imagine you could conveniently "schedule" moonrise to occur after the party has made camp or checked into an inn for the night. Presumably he's not trying to bunk down in full plate. That may also avoid some other problems, e.g. do you really want him to transform while the party is meandering along, possibly forcing a fight between the dwarf-wolf and the rest of the group? Personally, I'd have him awaken the following morning in his bedroll or bunk wearing shredded nightclothes, covered in blood (his own? an animal's? a humanoid's?), tired after a night of strange dreams. Kind of cliched, I know, but sometimes those classics become cliches because they work. And it does avoid problems of equipment loss and damage, etc. Hope that helps.
Robmansz 09-19-05, 10:58 AM	Hi all, thx for your replies. Imperialjunkie, i can't access the link you posted. Is there perhaps some other related thread you know of..? So werewolf templated PCs don't level up by class anymore..? Now that's a shock for my player, i think. He has his PC planned up till lvl 20, better look for another carreer. :eek: Robmansz
Lord Ian Stark 09-20-05, 12:49 AM	Hi all, thx for your replies. Imperialjunkie, i can't access the link you posted. Is there perhaps some other related thread you know of..? So werewolf templated PCs don't level up by class anymore..? Now that's a shock for my player, i think. He has his PC planned up till lvl 20, better look for another carreer. :eek: Robmansz After you add the racial HD and LA he can then advance in class levels when the party's level equals his ECL. Get it?
Robmansz 09-20-05, 03:41 AM	Ian, you're saying(?): All members of the party are lvl7, by adding the Werewolf Template the dwarf gets an ECL of 9. He would then not be able to lvl up until the party turns lvl 10..? Isn't it more reasonable to calculate xp normally for the party (lvl 7) and for the (Werewolf) dwarf as if he were lvl 9 considering his +2 ECL..? Robmansz
Lord Ian Stark 09-20-05, 04:20 AM	You through me off by saying that the were-wolf no longer advances in class levels. I was just saying he will. You never mentioned the party level either. But yeah he will gain EXP slower than the party members as he will be 3 (2 Racial HD and +1 LA afflicted)levels higher ECL wise. (I don't have my MM with me but I think that's right) How is the alignment part going?
Robmansz 09-20-05, 07:09 AM	For Alignment changes i stick with the literature (MM). I read the afflicted PCs' alignment changes to that of its lycanthropic animal form. Wolves are Neutral, so the PCs alignment changes from CG to Neutral. Ian, some posts back you mentioned that in time the PCs' alignment would change to Evil (if the werewolf that bit him was Evil) but i cannot find any rules supporting that. As for the RPG part, i don't think there's gonna be a problem. :smirk: Robmansz.
LostTemplar 09-20-05, 07:13 AM	I believe the armour and equipment he carries shift fully with him, losing all of their abilities. In essence, I believe it is similar to the Polymorph spell yes.
Lord Ian Stark 09-21-05, 01:23 AM	For Alignment changes i stick with the literature (MM). I read the afflicted PCs' alignment changes to that of its lycanthropic animal form. Wolves are Neutral, so the PCs alignment changes from CG to Neutral. Ian, some posts back you mentioned that in time the PCs' alignment would change to Evil (if the werewolf that bit him was Evil) but i cannot find any rules supporting that. Ah I see where you are reading that. Yeah the MM contradicts itself on the alignment part. On page 178 of the MM 3.5 look just above the "LYCANTHROPY AS AN AFFLICTION" topic. There is a "Common Lycanthropes" table there that shows the animals, the ability modifiers and prefered alignment. The Werewolf is labeled CE there. Also the stat blocks for the Werewolf has him "Always Chaotic Evil." But you can make them any alignment as there are werewolves in FR that are LG too. So the MM doesn't make sense when it says all were creatures take the alignment of the base animal because according to page 268 in the MM 3.5 ALL animals are neutral in alignment. :confused: :twitch: Also I was off about the Racial HD and LA of an afflicted Werewolf. It has 1 Racial HD and a +2 LA. So the PC will be 3 ECL's higher than the average creature.
Colmarr 09-21-05, 01:51 AM	Note that the alignment sections of the MM lycanthropy entry means different things at different times. Sticking with afflicted lycanthropes to keep things simple, we start with this: Any player character not yet aware of his or her lycanthropic condition temporarily becomes an NPC during an involuntary change, and acts according to the alignment of his or her animal form. While an (unwitting) afflicted lycanthrope is in its animal form, its alignment is neutral. It is no longer in sentient control of its body and is outside the realm of right or wrong. If it is hungry and sees a food source (such as a young child), it will eat it. It will not protect its companions, whom it no longer recognises. It will not remain in an area it was ordered to guard. The MM even goes so far as to say the creature temporarily becomes an NPC. When the character reverts back to their usual humanoid form, their alignment returns to normal, so long as they remain unaware of their affliction. However, once the character becomes aware of their lycanthropy, he: does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes. Ie. the character struggles against his animal instincts. If he fails, his morals are subsumed by the "law of the jungle" and he permanently becomes neutral. Any attempt to voluntarily change form after becoming aware of the affliction: immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope. Note that the reference is to the "appropriate lycanthrope", not the "appropriate animal". To find out the alignment of the appropriate lycanthrope , you look at the "Common lycanthropes" table. If that doesn't help, note that the alignment section of the template says: Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned. Although that's only a guideline, weresharks, weresnakes, and wereeels are all likely to be (chaotic?) evil, reflecting their perception as dangerous untrustworthy creatures. Wereeagles, werelions, and weredogs are likely to be (lawful?) good, reflecting their perception as proud, noble, or helpful. As for the dwarf the subject of the thread, if he struggles against his lycanthropy, there is a chance that he will retain his alignment, or at worst become neutral. If he voluntarily changes form, per RAW he immediately become Chaotic Evil. Of course, DM's have a funny way of house-ruling things like this ;) * It is possible that there is an animal that is not neutral, but like Lord Ian, I can't think of one. Fiendish/celestial changes the animal to a magical beast, and it is no longer qualifies for lycanthropy. Half-fiend/celestial make the animal an outsider, with the same effect.
Robmansz 09-21-05, 04:55 AM	Thx Colmar, that puts things in perspective, in short i think i will rule as follows: First there will be the period in which the PC dwarf will find out something is wrong, eventually leading to the discovery of him being diseased with lycanthrophy. If the dwarf fights the urges of his affliction his allignment changes to neutral, as i want some sign of his inner struggle. His alignment will change back once cured. He will become Chaotic Evil if he embraces his affliction and then becomes a "real" werewolf. There will be no way back for him on his own. :evillaugh His only chance to be cured of the lycanthrope disease will be if he is somehow discovered, caught and cured (as described in MM) by his party members. One more thing, if he is killed and raised, will he be free of the disease..? As his creature type has changed from humanoid to shapechanger, i would say he's still diseased but i'm not sure. Robmansz
Lord Ian Stark 09-21-05, 05:37 AM	One more thing, if he is killed and raised, will he be free of the disease..? As his creature type has changed from humanoid to shapechanger, i would say he's still diseased but i'm not sure. Robmansz A simple raise dead spell won't cure him but a resurrection or true resurrection will.
Robmansz 09-21-05, 06:55 AM	Thx Robmansz :plotting:
Millennium 09-21-05, 07:03 AM	I'd handle the alignment changes this way: at points where he has to make ethical or moral decisions, he starts feeling instinctive urges to act in a CE manner. At first make these just roleplay details; he can shrug them off with no trouble. After the first few, require a Will save (DC 10) the next time; failure means he must act on the urges (treat this like a magical compulsion in cases where acting CE could cause problems). Up the DC by 1 every time he has to roll it, and also every time he makes an involuntary transformation, as the urges get stronger. If he ever makes a voluntary transformation or decides to accept the curse then his alignment changes (the urges don't actually stop, but they become indistinguishable from his own thought patterns). Don't do this if you aren't comfortable with the possibility of his accepting the change, or if you're not prepared to offer him a chance to cure the lycanthropy if he decides he doesn't want it. Also, be prepared for the possibility that he'll find ways around it, such as Savage Species' Ritual of Alignment or the atonement spell.
ShadowDragon8685 09-21-05, 08:38 AM	And if you decide to go for forced alignment changes, be prepared to hand out 4d6. I'd rather play an entirely new character than a DM-fiat'd TWISTED MOCKERY of what was once my character.
Robmansz 09-21-05, 11:55 AM	Hi all, I'd handle the alignment changes this way: at points where he has to make ethical or moral decisions, he starts feeling instinctive urges to act in a CE manner. At first make these just roleplay details; he can shrug them off with no trouble. After the first few, require a Will save (DC 10) the next time; failure means he must act on the urges (treat this like a magical compulsion in cases where acting CE could cause problems). Up the DC by 1 every time he has to roll it, and also every time he makes an involuntary transformation, as the urges get stronger. The template has some advantages, especially for the party's main fighter, these rules see to it that it's experienced as a curse rather than a blessing. Still, i first want to see how it goes without forcing Player and DM (me) alike. I have good faith... I'd rather play an entirely new character than a DM-fiat'd TWISTED MOCKERY of what was once my character. Seems like you've had you're share of that. Not to worry, i've already talked things over with my friend and offered him a way out but he wants to play the Werewolf. If he ever makes a voluntary transformation or decides to accept the curse then his alignment changes (the urges don't actually stop, but they become indistinguishable from his own thought patterns). That's exactly what i had in mind. I have to tell you, i'm sooooo gonna enjoy the shocked faces of the other players when they find out. :evillaugh
Tacomannerism 09-21-05, 01:27 PM	for the sake of discussion: let's assume that there's a PC affected with Lycanthropy (werewolf ) and that they are aware of the condition. Let's assume they are one of the three good alignments. Finally, let's assume that this PC saw an innocent child in the street, corned by a pack of wild dogs. The PC knows they are not strong enough to repel the dogs without shapechanging voluntarily to their bybrid form. The PC proceeds to shapechange (perhaps making a successfuly Will save) and saves the child at the risk of this shape change. Possible? Plausible? How do you feel about the use of will saves in this situation to show the PC "fighting" the chaotic evil nature of the werewolf in order to achieve Good goals? If the character fails the save, perhaps it would jump in on the fight to take the child for itself and scare off the dogs?
Colmarr 09-21-05, 11:12 PM	Thx ColmarNo problem :) The PC knows they are not strong enough to repel the dogs without shapechanging voluntarily to their bybrid form. The PC proceeds to shapechange (perhaps making a successfuly Will save) and saves the child at the risk of this shape change. Possible? Plausible? How do you feel about the use of will saves in this situation to show the PC "fighting" the chaotic evil nature of the werewolf in order to achieve Good goals? If the character fails the save, perhaps it would jump in on the fight to take the child for itself and scare off the dogs? Per RAW, any voluntary shapechange immediately and permanently changes the character's alignment. No ifs or buts about it. Feel free to house-rule otherwise, but lycanthropes in D&D are generally bad guys, and introducing subjective alignment into the system mid-campaign can make life very hard for PCs, particularly those with alignment restrictions and codes of conduct. "Oh well, paladin, you just killed the lawful neutral vampire who has been fighting crime in the city for 100 years. I'm sorry but Heironeous doesn't like you any more..."
Mystyc 09-21-05, 11:31 PM	for the sake of discussion: let's assume that there's a PC affected with Lycanthropy (werewolf ) and that they are aware of the condition. Let's assume they are one of the three good alignments. Finally, let's assume that this PC saw an innocent child in the street, corned by a pack of wild dogs. The PC knows they are not strong enough to repel the dogs without shapechanging voluntarily to their bybrid form. The PC proceeds to shapechange (perhaps making a successfuly Will save) and saves the child at the risk of this shape change. Possible? Plausible? How do you feel about the use of will saves in this situation to show the PC "fighting" the chaotic evil nature of the werewolf in order to achieve Good goals? If the character fails the save, perhaps it would jump in on the fight to take the child for itself and scare off the dogs? Page 303 of the Monster Manual details the Control Shape skill, which becomes a class skill for any character that is aware of their lycanthropy. It uses the WIS modifier, and the check (which is not designated "Trained Only") to induce a change to animal form when it isn't a full moon is given as 20, with retries as a standard action. Changing to hybrid form is DC 15. Voluntarily changing back is also DC 20, but can't be retried, so a fail means the character must wait until dawn. If the character wants to preserve their alignment (which it doesn't say anything about in the skill description), I could see allowing them to hang on to themselves as long as they beat the check by 5.
imperialjunkie 09-21-05, 11:35 PM	No problem :) Per RAW, any voluntary shapechange immediately and permanently changes the character's alignment. No ifs or buts about it. Feel free to house-rule otherwise, but lycanthropes in D&D are generally bad guys, and introducing subjective alignment into the system mid-campaign can make life very hard for PCs, particularly those with alignment restrictions and codes of conduct. "Oh well, paladin, you just killed the lawful neutral vampire who has been fighting crime in the city for 100 years. I'm sorry but Heironeous doesn't like you any more..." Tacomannerism is in my game. We have houseruled alignment stuff, giving an alignment rating that can slowly change based on player actions. I've nerfed the alignment affects of lycanthropy in order to make it more feasible for a PC to become a werewolf. If you want the details, ask me. The alignment rating is working great so far. Robmansz, sorry my link didn't work. Try this one- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a. It should go straight to the werewolf template class.
Robmansz 09-26-05, 08:41 AM	After having talked all this over with my friend some questions remain: Can the dwarf werewolf (in Hybrid form) still: - effectively wear his armor (does it still function as such)..? - hold and swing his axe (yes probably)..? - use potions etc. I'm asking because it says the hybrid form has prehensile hands, i can't find any definite ruling... Does he gain the full 15/silver damage reduction, being an afflicted- not born werewolf..? Thx again for your advise, Robmansz Note: We are still in the 3.0 Ed. days.