Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wmsmitty 10-20-05, 09:14 PM	First let me emphasize to all players; what I am about to discuss has been working in my world for years; my players, both old and new...knew the "House Rules" prior to joining and everyone in our group enjoys playing in the realm I put before them. With that said, I wanted to ask other DM's who consider themselves to be running "Low Magic Level Campaigns", what it is that they do to create such a realm. I am really just curious to see where I am comparatively placed among such DM's. Just to give you an inside look at what I do to convey a low magic world feel: Sorcerers and Druids don't exist in my world When a wizard gains a new level, I provide a list of spells that the PC may have had exposure to, encountered or other events during game play. The player then chooses two free spells from that list. It helps me to maintain a DM's prerogative as to what spells are available in my world. However, I excersize this option only when a wizard currently knows all his spells contained within his spell books. Should there be unlearned spells contained in the wizards spell book, then the player must learn his two free spells from his book. I do ensure, that a wizard has the ability to learn spells of appropriate levels accessible as a result of gaining a new level. I use the variant rule of Summoning Individual Monsters, located on page 37 of the DMG. Typical "Magic Shops" are very rare. All "Mass" spells are disallowed. Most Prestige Classes with a magic emphasis are not allowed. I don't engage in many cough... Splat books. So all those spell feats and magic this and that is not used. PHB - Augment Summoning spell is out of play In addition to Summoning in general, I use the players alignment as a tool to ascertain what type of creatures would be available to him for summoning purposes. Expensive wizard components do exist and can be bought, should a player have the money, but they are still harder to come by than in most normal campaigns. Moreover, these materials are monitored in game play. It's funny really, if a player does not indicate the spell component he is using when casting a spell that requires it, I usually end up describing to the player how his spell went on the fritz.
olshanski_home 10-20-05, 09:33 PM	This is all well and good, but it neglects probably the 2 most important aspects of a low-magic game: 1) How do you determine average character wealth per level. I assume that this must be reduced, since everyone probably is not walking around with +3 armor, +2 rings, equipment of +4 ability, wands, potions, miscellaneous devices, and multiple magic weapons. The excess wealth probably goes somewhere... if not, is it in jewels or lands or what? 2) Assuming that people aren't laden with magical goods, how do you balance this against combat situations in which people are expected to have a great deal of magic at thier disposal. Afterward: I know for a fact that many mid to high level opponents simply CANNOT be conquered unless you have ample magic at your disposal. Many evil outsiders will teleport away from a losing situation and attack later when the party is sleeping, you need Dimensional Anchor to prevent this. Many earth, swimming, or flying creatures are nigh unbeatable unless the party has the ability to fly, swim, burrow, or hold the opponent... it usually takes magic to deal with this. Many opponents have death effects: you need protection from death effects to deal with them. Some opponents have weaknesses or lairs that can only be discovered through magical divination (Lich for example, perhaps vampire). All of those combats seem extremely hard to balance in a low-magic campaign.
astute1 10-20-05, 10:16 PM	It doesn't sound that bad. Really, I'm not sure I'd like to play in this kind of campaign, but if it works for you, whatever.
wmsmitty 10-20-05, 10:38 PM	1) How do you determine average character wealth per level. I assume that this must be reduced, since everyone probably is not walking around with +3 armor, +2 rings, equipment of +4 ability, wands, potions, miscellaneous devices, and multiple magic weapons. The excess wealth probably goes somewhere... if not, is it in jewels or lands or what? Although I do appreciate the response, this isn't what I intended for this threads purpose. As I had stated in the opening paragraph, things are well balanced and are quite fine in the world of fantasy gaming. However, insightful posts require an appreciative response...so... A) Wealth is slightly mitigated, but our campaigns have never placed emphasis on "Character Wealth" per level and rarely do we ever go to the DMG to ensure that these charts are in sync with characters. From time to time, I will look at them just to ensure that things are moderately close. B)Even though the world tends towards a low magic emphasis, that does not preclude magic items from being discovered and made. They are out there...just not as plentiful and easily accessible. Granted you will find magic items generally found at certain levels at an average of one to two levels higher than usual. C)And yes...there are lands, titles and rare arts to take the place of magic-value 2) Assuming that people aren't laden with magical goods, how do you balance this against combat situations in which people are expected to have a great deal of magic at thier disposal. I see this concern often posted on the boards...the dreadful balance issue and how come DM's have to mess with the rules. Well, I guess it depends on what rules have more generative power than others to move your game. I am from the older generation of gamers and tend to use the rules more as the general rule of thumb...what rules have more meaning than others depends on the nature of the game that we as a group are trying to commit to. -- end result -- I am consistent and my players are enjoying themselves. But to directly answer your thoughts here. The NPC's and Monsters never have any edges that the PC's would not be entitiled to overcome. This really isn't that hard for me as is the general concern from quite a few posters on these boards. NPC's are generally easier to handle than the Monsters, because they are exposed to the same conditions of a weak magic world as PC's, however, the Monster Manuals do pose a greater challenge to ensure proper balancing, but not so much as you would think as far as magic liabilities or capabilities. So, when I throw them at the PC's...they are "balanced". Afterward: I know for a fact that many mid to high level opponents simply CANNOT be conquered unless you have ample magic at your disposal. Many evil outsiders will teleport away from a losing situation and attack later when the party is sleeping, you need Dimensional Anchor to prevent this. Curious...how did you handle such evil npc's in 2nd edition who had this same effect when "Dimensional Anchor" did not exist there? There is always a way to deal with a situation. But I'm digressing here. To re-state...the world has a magic weak feel, I did not say that such spells in the PHB did not exist. Well, except for Mass spells. All of those combats seem extremely hard to balance in a low-magic campaign. This is of your opinion obviously, but again, I would differ with that opinion.
olshanski_home 10-20-05, 10:51 PM	I played 1st edition. Low magic. I started playing between 1976 and 1978. I played before there was an "AD&D". I quit when 2nd edition came out... I didn't like the splatbooks. I never played a 2nd edition game beyond a few modules, in which I was able to get by with my 1st edition rules. In 3rd edition, I still do not play splatbooks, nor do I indulge in any worlds that WOTC has published (the high-magic Faerun or Eberron). I play homebrew worlds. Even without splatbooks and everything else, I still follow guidelines for wealth by level because I don't know how to balance combatants. I do not have ye-olde magic shoppes. I do not have everburning torches on every street corner. I do not, however, restrict sorcerers, druids, wizards, or any other classes. The NPCs are mostly non-magic using classes... thus the world is low-magic, even though the individual players may not be. Frankly, if I knew how to balance combats with high-power monsters vs low magic world, I'd be playing more of a low-magic system. I was not trying to poke holes in your example, I just wanted more information. Saying that you still provide magic equipment, just about 1-2 levels behind the expected curve is a good example.
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-20-05, 11:53 PM	Ive never liked the idea of the typical low magic game. Something where the DM says 'oh, there is no magic for the players in my world...oh, but the monsters still have them, of course....'. The kind of DM who has 'fun' watching his players fight off an orc horde with wooden sticks and fire, trying to 'Macgyver' a way to win. I've always taken a diffrent route. Making magic ultra high powerful. The idea is the players are free to get the magic they typicaly think is powerful, but it's nothing compared to the high magic of the world. I always have fun with the new player who trys the common typical magic tricks, and finds folk in the world ready for them. And most of the time they get totaly lost, their trick does not work, so they have no idea what to do. With the idea of 'too much' magic in the world, no one can know about it all. When you encounter magic, it can be anything. And no wimpy spellcraft roll is going to let you know all the magic secrets of the Multiverse. The end result is even with all the high magic, the players woun't get to far without intelligent play. This also goes along with the role-playing side...sure they can sink the island, but that won't save the princess. BT
Jancarius 10-20-05, 11:56 PM	I've never DMed a low Magic (I love my Magic Everywhere universes like Eberron), but I have played in two Raveloft campaigns. In my experience, low-magic games are more intended to set the PCs on edge. Using NPCs probably balances that back out, afterall, the NPCs are just as restricted by their class/equipment as the PCs. However, in Ravenloft... no such luck. NPCs tend to come in two varieties. (Angry) Commoner and Dark Lord. In between, you got your various monster types, and odds are that someone in your party would die in most encounters above L7 unless you were VERY well prepared, tactically and materially. That was my experience, hope that helps. As an aside: I'm very highly biased towards Wizards as a class (I played them all through second edition) and it seems like your restrictions hurt the Wizard a lot more than the Cleric (and Druids and Sorcerers just don't exist). A cleric does not require material components and gets all their spells at each level. How do you handle that?
Phist 10-21-05, 12:22 AM	* Sorcerers and Druids don't exist in my world NOOO!!!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER!!! Sorry, but those are my two favorite classes and it's almost impossible to get a reasonable response from me where the topic of removing them is concerned. I get very protective. Besides, I think sorcerers would actually be a lot more common than wizards. In a world where it's very hard to learn how to do magic(by virtue of the fact that few would know, and there's nothing to study), the best way to become an arcane spellcaster is to be born with it. * When a wizard gains a new level, I provide a list of spells that the PC may have had exposure to, encountered or other events during game play. The player then chooses two free spells from that list. It helps me to maintain a DM's prerogative as to what spells are available in my world. However, I excersize this option only when a wizard currently knows all his spells contained within his spell books. Should there be unlearned spells contained in the wizards spell book, then the player must learn his two free spells from his book. I do ensure, that a wizard has the ability to learn spells of appropriate levels accessible as a result of gaining a new level. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a spellbook merely contain the spells that a wizard has the option of preparing at the start of each day? A wizard never really 'learns' spells, he just puts them in his book. The 'learning' I guess is when he prepares them every day, but he only remembers them until he uses them and can't prepare them if he loses the book. * Typical "Magic Shops" are very rare. As they should be. A character powerful enough to run one should be out saving the world. * All "Mass" spells are disallowed. I dunno. I guess that would be alright. * Most Prestige Classes with a magic emphasis are not allowed. I guess that would have to be taken on a case-by-case basis. I'll just say that I've NEVER disallowed a class or race. The only thing I've ever disallowed is Half-Golem(+12 strength and no LA is BAD). * In addition to Summoning in general, I use the players alignment as a tool to ascertain what type of creatures would be available to him for summoning purposes. Totally agree with you. * Expensive wizard components do exist and can be bought, should a player have the money, but they are still harder to come by than in most normal campaigns. Keep in mind that componants are not always JUST made for that purpose. I can't think of any examples because I'm too lazy to check, but some would be around for other reasons.
2E Ranger 10-21-05, 01:37 AM	I am new to 3E, having played 2E and 1E for as long as I can remember. My group and I prefer low magic campaigns, but aren't familiar enough with the rules yet to feel like we would be qualified to deviate from the formula. That being said, there are a couple things I would suggest if I was to try and run a low-magic 3E capaign right now. 1) Make item creation feats more difficult, like it used to be in previous editions. 2) Reduce the percentages of finding a magical item by a certain percentage (which would reflect the percentage your world was less magical than the standard) and increase the amount of gold by that percentage. This would not entirely fix the aforementioned treasure problem, though, because magical items, if purchaseable at all (which I would not allow), would have a much more inflated cost. 3) Reduce the spell resistances of monsters. In a low magic world, I think that what magic there is would, or should, be more effective. 4) Move the ability increase bonus from being every 4 levels to every 3. That's about all I can think of off the top of my head.
weasel fierce 10-21-05, 02:30 AM	Low magic is the way to go, IMO. Generally, I tend to allow PC's to play spell casting classes (mind, we play AD&D, so no prestige class nonsense), but make other casters very rare. This also helps make the party stand out as unique. No sorcerers is fine with me. They dont have any particular role to fullfill in my opinion. I kinda like the celtic feel of the druid, but leaving them out is fine. It doesnt really remove any role that is fundamental to D&D. Cut down on magic items floating around, and use hard monsters sparingly and with great care. That werewolf will be a LOT more scary to the players, if they arent all loaded up with +3 swords As for "wealth per level" and all that nonsense. Bah I say. That only applies if you are playing in a game, that is exactly and unswervingly like the designers intended. Getting encounters right isnt too hard, once you get into the hang of it, as well as realize that not everything will be equal :)
Cadfan 10-21-05, 04:14 AM	Well, you seem to have the obvious parts. Things I've done or considered doing, and issues I've had problems with. Use humanoids with class levels instead of monsters, that much should be obvious. This has its own set of problems, though. When the party runs into "an orc," they don't necessarily know whether to fight or flee. Sometimes they'll run, and feel stupid, and sometimes they'll fight, and there will be a total party kill. And after that, you'll be on this board talking about how your players resent you even though they CHOSE to fight that orc, and they'll be on the player's board talking about how their killer DM made a perfectly normal orc turn out to be a level 20 barbarian with no warning except that he had "big muscles." So be careful with this one. If you use only core materials, and you ban or discourage the primary casters, there aren't that many options for the players to use, and pcs can start looking very similar. Especially if, in honor of the low magic setting, the PCs not only don't pick wizard, sorceror, druid, or cleric, they also shy away from paladin, ranger, and bard. That leaves barbarian, fighter and rogue, plus maybe monk, if he's not too magic-ish. If the pcs cannot heal easily, the speed at which they will progress through challenges will be significantly reduced. A need to heal naturally, will require the party to come home and rest for a week or so after every day of adventuring. This restricts your plotline writing abilities. If you ban arcane magic but allow clerics to get the healing in there, it can damage the realism of the world, because honestly, when someone casts hold person on you, it doesn't make too much difference whether it was a cleric or a wizard. So, when the peasants get all scared about a wizard, but accept a cleric who does the same things, the party will roll their eyes a bit.
weasel fierce 10-21-05, 04:23 AM	If you use only core materials, and you ban or discourage the primary casters, there aren't that many options for the players to use, and pcs can start looking very similar. Especially if, in honor of the low magic setting, the PCs not only don't pick wizard, sorceror, druid, or cleric, they also shy away from paladin, ranger, and bard. That leaves barbarian, fighter and rogue, plus maybe monk, if he's not too magic-ish. Characters become different through roleplaying, not rules and powers. This shouldn't be an issue. If the pcs cannot heal easily, the speed at which they will progress through challenges will be significantly reduced. A need to heal naturally, will require the party to come home and rest for a week or so after every day of adventuring. This restricts your plotline writing abilities. A definite focus on lower intensity combat encounters is certainly in order. Realistically though, apart from dungeon crawls, an adventure will be hard pressed to include more than 3-4 combats, let alone serious, large scale fights. If you ban arcane magic but allow clerics to get the healing in there, it can damage the realism of the world, because honestly, when someone casts hold person on you, it doesn't make too much difference whether it was a cleric or a wizard. So, when the peasants get all scared about a wizard, but accept a cleric who does the same things, the party will roll their eyes a bit. Quite true. Keeping clerical magic low key, and in line with "miracle" kind of stuff, can help it somewhat, I guess.
imperialjunkie 10-21-05, 11:24 AM	My campaign is low-magic, and I've learned a few things. Here are a few short details on how I handle it: 1) Spellcasting classes were not available at character creation. 2) Spellcasting classes became available fairly quickly. 3) Magic is rare in the world, but not non-existent. 4) Appropriate treasure level and magic items are given out, but they must be found. This is part of the rediscovery of magic in my world, and a very important plot piece. When I include a new item, I do not do so primarily to follow Table 3-3 & 3-5 (though I do follow them). The primary purpose of a new magic item is to advance the story and to intrigue the players. They are enjoying it immensely. 5) The higher they go in level, the more they will encounter the 'keepers of magic' in the world who will either help them or, most commonly, hinder them. So far it has been very enjoyable, especially for my players who are used to high-magic Faerun. The most important change for them has been tactical combat and fighters become much more important. I have veteran players who are enjoying having to actually use feats and BAB again instead of just spells and Saves. Very refreshing. As well, item creation will become much more exciting and important. PCs have the opportunity to 'own' their items more because they are so unique or because the item is 'part of them.' This restores the charm and mystique of magic items, I believe. And most importantly, because not every NPC is walking around laden with magic items, this sets the PCs apart. They are the heroes of the world, and they look, act, and fight like it. Though they are still low-level at this point, they outshine their peers and they will increasingly draw the notice and ire of higher powered evil things. To me, this is the point of playing: to be a hero. A low-magic setting that provides for magic items and discovery of more magic power slowly allows for this to a higher degree in my opinion. Magic sets the PCs apart. In a high-magic setting they just blend into the crowd and are upstaged by the DM's (or the published setting's) uber NPCs.
solbergb 10-21-05, 11:41 AM	Actually my instinct with a low magic world is to remove all the prepared casters, not the spont casters. Get rid of clerics and druids, replace with favored soul remove wizard, replace with sorcerer It might be ok to leave in the half/caster guys like ranger/paladin and bard is probably ok as written if you put some limit on the fascinate ability. Likewise classes with some magic-like abilities such as monk aren't going to mess anything up. The lack of automatic scroll scribing, bonus crafting feats (wizard), domain powers/spells and trivializing undead encounters (cleric) and problematic polymorph plus an animal companion nearly as strong as a party light fighter (druid), combined with nearly unlimited spell lists that the prep casters get really makes it easier to explain why there is NOT a magic shop in every major town, and also keep what the PCs can do within reason (crafting feats can still be taken but there will be a direct hit to the abilities of a spont caster, just from the spells needed to craft a lot of items may not be the same as the spells they want to cast every day) Then maybe restrict which spells these casters can take on levelup, to keep your casters in line with your noncasters in overall power level. This is the real problem - by default any caster will outstrip any noncaster if you don't provide noncasters with the expected amount of magical equipment. Many low magic games are severely restrictive on magic equipment, making it nearly impossible for your Tordek or Lydda types to get the basic armor, weapons and statboost items that are expected as the game moves past level 6.
striderII 10-21-05, 11:50 AM	Well, here's the rub, for those who aren't familiar with low-magic games (this somewhat echoes something that weael fierce said). All of those high-power creatures that DM's typically like using just aren't feasible, as, if for no other reason, the PC's don't have the resources to deal with them as effectively. So the Wight that you may have thrown against 5th level characters (for instance) in a "typical" campaign you have to throw against 10th level characters in a low magic campaign, if at all. The focus, feel, and, well, the antagonists themselves are all different in a low magic world - you'll likely be using NPC's with class levels more often than, say, dragons. At the higher levels, as the PC's progress in power and, subsequently, fame (or infamy/notoriety, depending on your PC's actions), they typically get involved with political-type plots and stories, rather than dungeon-delving. However, this style of play is not to everyone's taste, although people wanting to play in a low-magic game may very well like it, I suspect! ;) I think the problem that I've seen on these boards of people saying "low magic campaigns don't work" stems somewhat from the mindset and/or habit of using monsters as primary antagonists, or at least, monsters that *require* magic to combat at higher levels. Hmmm....maybe a Regdar's Repository article is in order? I dunno... strider
Omega the Powerfull 10-21-05, 11:53 AM	Sorcerers and Druids don't exist in my world How does the the fact of the non existance of these two classes limits the power of magic? When a wizard gains a new level, I provide a list of spells that the PC may have had exposure to, encountered or other events during game play. The player then chooses two free spells from that list. It helps me to maintain a DM's prerogative as to what spells are available in my world. However, I excersize this option only when a wizard currently knows all his spells contained within his spell books. Should there be unlearned spells contained in the wizards spell book, then the player must learn his two free spells from his book. I do ensure, that a wizard has the ability to learn spells of appropriate levels accessible as a result of gaining a new level. All "Mass" spells are disallowed. What kind of spells do limit? The fact of limiting some spells and other not make the power of the wizards weaker in some situations, in others not, working like an specialiszation of the wizards. And there are a lot of powerfull spells other than the mass spells, They are weaker than their non mass counterparts because in higher levels, hardly you'll find encounter with lots of weaker enemies Typical "Magic Shops" are very rare. If you can get the magic items in the dungeon, you don't need magic shops Most Prestige Classes with a magic emphasis are not allowed. Again, this doens't make magic weaker for not allowing this prestige classes, for the game mechancics assume all classes are balanced
Andrew_980 10-21-05, 01:25 PM	I am about to present the basics of a low magic home world to my players tonight. My rules are fairly simular -players may play magic types but i will discurage it -spellcasters will be fairly rare, especially arcane -non-magic bard, ranger varients -elves will be more fey than standard PC race, most druids or sorc -gnome changed or removed -new human subraces with differant abilities -many "high magic" PRCs removed or limited -more historic/medival feel, not modern through magic -I will remove wizards instead of sorcerers, i prefer the feel of a caster that runs out of power, not prepaired spells The world will be tailored to fit low magic including non-magic superior gear (greater masterwork, improved dmg/ac because of quality) The only problem will be my gnome obsessed player, as they will need modification to fit the world.
Phist 10-21-05, 01:33 PM	Interesting option for a low magic campaign: Make magic, for whatever reason, illegal. I did this with a homebrew campaign world that I co-dmed a while back and it worked perfectly. The story was that the civilised world was ruled by gnomes who used steam powered machines(ranging from little crap things to basicly medieval mechs) to maintain control. They banned magic because it's the only thing they fear, the only thing that can really have potential to hurt them. So anyone can be a spellcasting class, but they have to ALWAYS watch their backs or else the city guard would be on them. And 'Magic shops' take the form of back alley dealers and such. It worked for two reasons. Because the campaign was very urban and the PCs didn't really have the option of dissapearing into the forest. And because the city guard was actually a forced to be reckoned with. When the city guard is toting walkers with electrified claws and gattling crossbows, PCs start getting a little more careful.
wmsmitty 10-21-05, 01:45 PM	As an aside: I'm very highly biased towards Wizards as a class (I played them all through second edition) and it seems like your restrictions hurt the Wizard a lot more than the Cleric (and Druids and Sorcerers just don't exist). A cleric does not require material components and gets all their spells at each level. How do you handle that? Actually, I love the wizard class too! The itemization I gave was meant as an overview, and yes, by reading through them, they appear to "hurt" the wizard as compared to the Cleric. The clerics in my world must have strong relationships with their Gods and adhere to the doctrines of their faith to ensure access to their spells and are subject to stricter summoning capabilities than a wizard. If we really look at the wizard vs cleric in my campaign, neither one has the edge over the other. Wizards just don't get to choose whatever new spells they want to learn when advancing to a new level. That is the only real inhibitor to the wizard, but remember, he still gets to learn his two new spells from somewhere. And to clerify, a wizard still gets to learn his spells each day, just like the cleric. NOOO!!!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER!!! Sorry, but those are my two favorite classes and it's almost impossible to get a reasonable response from me where the topic of removing them is concerned. I can see that you are quite protective! :) Well Phist...what can I say, I guess you wouldn't enjoy our campaign much would you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a spellbook merely contain the spells that a wizard has the option of preparing at the start of each day? A wizard never really 'learns' spells, he just puts them in his book. Yes...you are correct. The point I indicated regarding "THEIR" spell book was inaccurate. I meant to say that spell books discovered in the campaign that are now owned by the wizard, must first try to learn spells from those books prior to having the option of choosing from a list. If you ban arcane magic ... Arcane magic is NOT banned. How does the the fact of the non existance of these two classes limits the power of magic? Power of Magic? It doesn't...availability and presence of magic capabilities being initiated in the game? Slight reduction of magic...not the Power of Magic. But the classes are removed for these reasons: They did not exist in my world with 2nd edition and just because the 3.5 PHB provided new classes, did not mean that our world suddenly had them. Moreover, the feel and mechanics of the worlds magic weave just made sense to not include these new classes. What kind of spells do limit? The fact of limiting some spells and other not make the power of the wizards weaker in some situations... Your interpretation does not represent the angle in how we approach magic in our world. We are not reducing spell effects or nixing spells...just the Mass spell category is nixed. What we do to convey the low magic feel is through the "presence" of magic. Again, this doens't make magic weaker for not allowing this prestige classes, for the game mechancics assume all classes are balanced I think I would like to reserve the right as to what is balanced in my world. Yes, I generally assume all classes are balanced...but the fact of the matter is, outside of the core books, not all prestige classes are balanced, and more of these classes than not are designed for specific realm elements within a fantasy world. Again it is about presence of magic as a means to convey a low magic world feel...not it's power.
wmsmitty 10-21-05, 01:51 PM	Interesting option for a low magic campaign: Make magic, for whatever reason, illegal. Yes! :cool: We did this in my first campaign. Magic was outlawed in one of the human kingdoms and the King payed heavy ransoms for the head of a wizard. As a result, a mercenary group called the Mage Hunters came about and added a lot of flavor to the campaign. This played out with great satisfaction to the players as they were hell bent on returning the kingdom to the good ole days of wizardry. This chapter of the campaign was a hit.
Bullgrit 10-21-05, 02:06 PM	With that said, I wanted to ask other DM's who consider themselves to be running "Low Magic Level Campaigns", what it is that they do to create such a realm. I am really just curious to see where I am comparatively placed among such DM's.My campaign uses just the core rules, and I consider it to be within the "normal level" of magic, as suggested by the core books. So let's compare your "low magic level" with my "normal magic level" Sorcerers and Druids don't exist in my worldWell, if you still have wizards and clerics, I don't see how this lowers the magic level of the campaign. When a wizard gains a new level, I provide a list of spells that the PC may have had exposure to, encountered or other events during game play. The player then chooses two free spells from that list. It helps me to maintain a DM's prerogative as to what spells are available in my world. I don't see how this really lowers the level of magic. However, I excersize this option only when a wizard currently knows all his spells contained within his spell books. Should there be unlearned spells contained in the wizards spell book, then the player must learn his two free spells from his book. I do ensure, that a wizard has the ability to learn spells of appropriate levels accessible as a result of gaining a new level.A separate note: The spells in a wizard's spellbook are already "learned" by that wizard. I don't understand what you're doing here. I use the variant rule of Summoning Individual Monsters, located on page 37 of the DMG.Which variant rule? Typical "Magic Shops" are very rare.The core rules as written do not mention the concept of "magic shops". I have *no* magic shops in my campaign, but characters can "purchase" (through a broker, by commission) magic items, and the magic level is still normal with the core rules. Your statement suggests that magic shops exist in your world (albeit "rare"), so you are going in the opposite direction from "low magic level". All "Mass" spells are disallowed.I don't understand the reason for this. Cure light wounds is OK, but mass cure light wounds is not? Most Prestige Classes with a magic emphasis are not allowed.I don't include any prestige classes at all, and I still have a normal level of magic. I don't engage in many cough... Splat books. So all those spell feats and magic this and that is not used.I don't include any books other than the 3 core books, and I still have a normal level of magic. PHB - Augment Summoning spell is out of playWhy? You allow the summon spells, but don't allow the summoned creatures to be marginally tougher? I don't see how this affects the level of magic in the campaign. In addition to Summoning in general, I use the players alignment as a tool to ascertain what type of creatures would be available to him for summoning purposes.This is part of the core rules as written. You've really not changed anything about the level of magic. Expensive wizard components do exist and can be bought, should a player have the money, but they are still harder to come by than in most normal campaigns. Moreover, these materials are monitored in game play. It's funny really, if a player does not indicate the spell component he is using when casting a spell that requires it, I usually end up describing to the player how his spell went on the fritz.Expensive components are already limited by being expensive. And you seem to be punishing the in-game wizard because the out-of-game Player didn't memorize (as opposed to in-game preparation) the component info from the spell description. This does nothing to lower the level of magic. So, overall, your house rules to enforce a low magic level do not actually do so. I'm actually more restrictive in some areas, yet my campaign is on the normal level of magic. There's your comparison for my campaign. There are many ways of making a low magic level world, and they can work just fine and fun. Heck, you can start by removing all the above house rules and just making cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard prestige classes (just give them skill rank prerequisites). Bullgrit
Bullgrit 10-21-05, 02:10 PM	we play AD&D, so no prestige class nonsenseYou mean like the AD&D1 bard and thief/acrobat? :-) Bullgrit
agent of gurney 10-21-05, 03:18 PM	Interesting option for a low magic campaign: Make magic, for whatever reason, illegal. In my world I have done something similar, Magic is something that is akin to a controled substance. A house rule is that depending on what the players nation of origin dictates what schools are availible to the wizard, and They must select a school specialization. I do this because the only wizardry colleges are part of the crown, so all wizards are typically in the service of the crown. Bards and Sorcs as spontainious arcane casters have to trying and keep a low profile or else they are arrested and registered with the crown. It all forms a sort of secret magic police, think Psi-corp from Babylon 5, there are licsenced and authorized arcane casters with a force of wizards who watches over them and polices them. It keeps magic items under their watchful eye and has lead to some wonderful roleplay moments where the party sorc tries to out run the "Officers of the Third Eye" as the organization is known.
Cathon 10-21-05, 08:26 PM	My low magic world is kind of a special case. Mine is set in Greece, specifically the time referred to as Classical Greece. The premise is that the ancient legends are based on fact, but for some reason (known to me, not the party) magic, the gods and monsters no longer hold the sway on the world that they once did and are mostly considered fictional in civilized places. Character Classes? Paladins? Gone. Monks? Gone (unless they travel to China or something). Wizards and Sorcerors? Combined into one class and only available to NPCs initially. Clerics? Nerfed to the point where they may not be playable as PCs. Druids? NPCs only initially. Bards? Pretty much as written except for reduced spell list, but they are a secret society within the Orphic cult and disguise their magic use as incidental effects and morale boosts. Flagrant use of magic will get you hunted down by other members. Additional Classes? Marshal and Swashbuckler(sailor types) are approved for the campaign. Others (such as Scout) might be if I had the appropriate book. Rangers use the non-spellcasting variant from UA. Weapons and Equipment? Lists are ripped to threads. Fantasy and Medieval Weaponry removed, armors reduced to a few types. Spells in General? All Evocations are removed. Most anything with an Energy descriptor is removed. Most spell casting is ritual in nature and spells that normal take one action take one minute. However there are means of imbuing objects with spells such that you can instead take a standard action to destory the object and subsequently cast the spell. Bardic magic is different from other magics, and follows normal time rules. Clerical magic can gain power from use of sacrifices. Magic Items? Aside from imbued items from sorceror hordes, there isn't much. A true magic weapon or piece of armor is likely only to be acheived as a gift from the gods or guarded by a particularly powerful monster. Monsters? More fantastical the further you get from civilization. Need to have a connection with Greek Mythology, some DRs and special abilities may be modified as the PCs won't likely have access to magic weapons or special materials. Many might think this is practically unplayable, but my PCs enjoy it as a change of pace. Current party consists of a Hero (Barbarian equivalent without illiteracy or alignment restriction), 2 fighter/rogues and a bard. They are 4th level and have already started their first mission for a god.
Vanigo 10-21-05, 11:31 PM	Yes...you are correct. The point I indicated regarding "THEIR" spell book was inaccurate. I meant to say that spell books discovered in the campaign that are now owned by the wizard, must first try to learn spells from those books prior to having the option of choosing from a list. You still let them copy spells to their spellbook normally, right?
weasel fierce 10-22-05, 01:52 AM	You mean like the AD&D1 bard and thief/acrobat? :-) Bullgrit Yes, I mean no, completely different ! :)
wmsmitty 10-24-05, 08:53 PM	You still let them copy spells to their spellbook normally, right? yea...with the proper rolls, resources and time to do so.
Rabscuttle 10-24-05, 09:47 PM	wmsmitty, I run what I consider to be a low magic campaign but it's a different flavour from what you have: - We allow all aspects of the core rule books but no others. - Magic weapons are rare but tend to be more powerful so rather than having a town where 8 people have a +1 weapon and 3 have a +2 weapon there will be one person with a +3 weapon which may also have special abilities. - Magic schools outside the control of the ruling power are illegal. - Wizards, sorcerers and druids are rarely seen and are looked upon with fear unless they've proven themselves to be friends of the people through their actions. - The use of enchantments is punishable by death because being manipulated by magic is what I feel people in power would fear the most. - The campaign uses a monotheistic religion which governs all neutral and good alignments so clerical actions and use of magic also has oversights and controls. - Magic is very rarely found with treasure. (The characters have made about half of the magic that they have.) - Most opponents that the party deals with are humanoids with class levels. - Magic items used by bad guys are generally of clerical origin and permanent items often impart a penalty on good or neutral creatures that try to wield them. (Reduces accumulation of magic quite well.) I hope this gives you the kind of information you were looking for. Regards, Rabscuttle
wmsmitty 10-25-05, 07:23 PM	wmsmitty, I hope this gives you the kind of information you were looking for. Regards, Rabscuttle This was more in line with what I was looking for. Interesting approach...I may toy with a few of those ideas.
astute1 10-26-05, 12:01 PM	Another suggestion for the OP: Check out Andy Collins Umber Campaign website: www.andycollins.net It's where our group got a lot of the ideas that inspired our low-magic campaign.