Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir_Wolfgar 12-08-06, 12:56 AM	I'm splitting my party up to do individual sessions to get down to the knitty-gritty character development. Well, for the Red-Wizard PC (10th level). He's an evoker with alot of battle magic. I've decided to run a wizard's tournament in the city of Waterdeep. So, I'm thinking a tournament with 3 brackets, and the only mage I've decided on is a shaman-like Sorcerer (necromantic focus). I might use a Wu-Jen as well. My question is what is the best mage to kill a mage? I want to give this PC a challenge. It needs to be around 10th-15th level, all spell-user levels, and cannot not rely on weapons, constructs, or permenant summoned creatures like a necromancer (regular summoned monsters are fine). I've got all the WoTC books, but no third party.
Krusk 12-08-06, 01:50 AM	Spell-theif? Havent heard if they are good or not, but they seem like they would be the ultimate caster to destroy a mage. it was what they were designed to do, so lets hope so. If a spellthief isnt any good, throw in anothe evoker with improved intitative. Have him first round twin spell disintergrate. Hope that works.
Animae_Draconum 12-08-06, 02:16 AM	Celerity, and use somthing to play off his weak fort save, give one of your guys an item with spell resistance or the ultimate annoyance for an evoker a countermagic specialist, if he burns all his spells for the given spots it forces him into melee. I personally favor a counter mage you know his spell list and in a tournament hes goign to prepare nothing but blaster spells know his spell list predict what he will have prepared and counter as much as possible As a final battle make him fight against a Tainted Scholar, theyre retardedly good since the char doesnt have to survive the encounter use your judgement for what its depravity/corruption and corresponding symptoms will be A_D
MareltEkiran 12-08-06, 03:43 AM	Get the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine and get the Protection Domain in order to cast Spell Resistance and Spell Immunity. Spell Resistance is an SR of 12 + caster level. Get that ioun stone that gives you +1 to your caster level and you get an SR of your Character level + 13. Assuming that the two guys are of equal level, that's a 60% spell failure for the Red Wizard right there (unless he starts tossing those stupid orbs, but he probably won't prepare many when fighting humanoid wizards). If the enemy mage can get a little research done, Spell Immunity can be used against the Red Wizard's favorite fish gutter. If not, then use Globe of Invulnerability, but make sure that he has all buff spells in place beforehand. Other spells that should be prepared or on the enemy mage's list (either PHB or SC): True Seeing (most spellcasters depend on illusions to keep them from getting hit) Superior Resistance (cast it 20 hours before the match and get a good night's sleep to regain the spell slot... It's 24 hours after all) Ray Deflection (this might be your first spell, depending on the Red Wizard strategy) Contingent Energy Resistance (no need to guess what he'll use) Defensive items: Ring of Evasion DEX boosting item Brooch of Shielding (many wizards have fallen before a bombardment of pesky magic missiles) Now... for the offense: First spell: Evard's Black Tentacles. Most wizards have atrocious grapple checks and it is opposed by 1d20 + your caster level +8 (remember that ioun stone), so chances are that he'll fail unless he beats your d20 roll by 12 points, or something similar. At that point, unless he has a lot of stilled spells prepared, he's history. If this works... follow up with Ball Lightning. In the tentacles, he's denied his DEX bonus, so his reflex saves will be atrocious as well. And Ball Lightning, once cast, does damage every single round in the same square. Disintergrate generally works (especially if you have True Seeing against those pesky illusions) but I don't like it for a wizard duel... It's too much of a "save or die" effect. If all else fails, wear him down with ye good olde evocations (or those stupid orb spells, if you insist). Other defensive techniques: Never underestimate a well-placed illusion. If he's a blaster, then chances are that he doesn't have many anti-illusion spells prepared. If so, Mislead is your best friend. Or Greater Invisibility, followed by a Major Image. Nothing is as fun as to see an envoker blasting his spells to heat the air. Enervation... It's like casting counterspell against his best spells before he has even cast them, if you know what I mean. If all else fails (meaning that both sides ran out of spells): Bite of the Wereboar and Master's Touch (using that Greatsword that you kept for a rainy day). See how well his Ray of Frost stands up to 5 feet of steel smashing his face.
GaffeR 12-08-06, 04:10 AM	The meanest thing you could throw him up against would be anything using Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Those guys are just MADE to eat mages. Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 6/IotSV 7/MS +4 is nasty. A Wizard 5/Something/Fatespinner 5 would be cruel also. Have him take a big hit to his saves then cast Feeblemind. Limited wish works also. You could also just have your wizard ready Disintegrates on the trigger that "my opponent attempts to cast a spell". Try making THAT concentration check. If you're making a mage to kill a mage, you will win.
runestar 12-08-06, 04:14 AM	Don't bother with spell resistance. Chances are that each wiz will be toting arcane mastery(take 10 on sr checks) + assay resistance. This effectively makes sr moot. Also, spell immunity only protects up to 4th lv spells. In that case, I might as use a greater globe of invul. Unless you can access greater spell immunity... What are the rules? Like how much time does each wiz have to prebuff? Evocation could be doable. Just keep throwing regular and quickened damage spells at the wiz until he is toast. Lightning ring, prismatic spray, quickened fireball/scorching ray etc... One thing you have to watch out for is the fleshshiver spell, since it auto-stuns the target without save. A wiz who wins initiative just needs to keep casting it and follow up with a quickened damage spell each round and its pretty much a done deal.;)
MareltEkiran 12-08-06, 04:23 AM	Sorry... I forgot about Assay Resistance. Although, it depends on whether your Red Wizard uses that spell. If the Red Wizard is particularily well adapted to piercing defenses, then don't bother with them. Just throw the Black Tentacles on first turn and if that succeeds (which it likely will), follow up with Ball Lightning on the second.
Sir_Wolfgar 12-08-06, 04:52 AM	Great responses, but I probally wont be using desentegration, although I might have it prepared and used if the battle gets stuck. As for prebuffs, the PC will have to agree with the NPC as for how many rounds they can cast buffs. It could be anywhere from 0 to 3. Looking at the Sevenfold Veil Intiate, I might pick that, but if I do I will have someone outside the tournament inform the PC about the class, so the Red Wizard won't be completely caught off gaurd.
krichaiushii 12-08-06, 05:09 AM	Looking at the Sevenfold Veil Intiate, I might pick that, but if I do I will have someone outside the tournament inform the PC about the class, so the Red Wizard won't be completely caught off gaurd. Encourage your Red Wizard to use divination magic - either his own or an ally's - to determine potential opposition and their abilities. Gather Information, Bardic Knowledge, and the lilke can be used as well. Regardless, have the PC/player seek out the information, don't just dump it on him. If the goal is character development, teaching a blastermage to think, plan, and use noncombat magic could be worthwhile.
Goon_for_Hire 12-08-06, 10:38 AM	Krusk, the spellthief is a pretty cool suggestion. I love the class and use it frequently for NPCs villains. The problem with them is that they have a pretty steep learning curve, and little to no multiclassing potential. If a player plays one badly or a DM doesn't understand their abilities inside-out and backwards they fall flat on their face. A spelltheif at about 13th level could demolish a 10th level wizard pretty quickly (if his player is smart.) Unfortunately, I'm not sure they would make very good tournament material. Their own spellcasting ability is abysmal... they gain arcane spells at about the same rate rangers gain divine ones. They probably couldn't qualify at the same level of ability as a 10th level wizard, unless they bluffed their way through the qualification rounds on stolen spells. Most of their actual thieving abilities are reliant on sneak attacks. In most duels arcane pulling out a sap or sucker-punching your opponent would be bad form. If they don't have the Pierce Magical Concealment feat, obscuring mist would eliminate their sneak attacks anyway. On the other hand, at a nice high level the spellthief can forgo a saving throw to attempt to absorb a spell, then cast it back at the attacker, which would ruin an evoker's day pretty quickly. And once he steals a spell, he instantly knows every other spell his opponent has and can preprare accordingly.
Sir_Wolfgar 12-08-06, 03:23 PM	Does any body know alot about Wu-Jen? How would one go about fighting a wizard? I've never used one IMC before.
Krusk 12-08-06, 04:11 PM	I would think i wu jen would use the spell that makes them huge and then step on the wizard in round one. Dont know how terribly effective it would be, but it would be great to see. Might get them through the first few rounds of the tourney.
RK)13 12-08-06, 05:33 PM	This may be a bit out of the box here, but has anyone ever run a mage completely devoted to buffing himself and counterspelling? He counters your spells and then runs up and tears your arms off.... Could be interesting. Not sure of a build.
Sildatorak 12-08-06, 07:30 PM	No matter what you choose, Improved Initiative is a must. If you don't mind some interesting multiclassing, you could go with a sorcerer/spell-thief/arcane trickster who uses ranged legerdemain to slip a 5 pound rock into the wizards pocket. Couple that with a empowered, maximized, or sudden empowered/maximized ray of enfeeblement and you just pinned your opponent to the ground. Some other ideas I had are just buffing up combos. Obscuring mist round 1, greater invisibility round 2, project image round 3. Have the image in the mist chucking fireballs or whatever, and watch him concentrate his fire on the illusory duplicate.
The_Apathetic_Despot 12-08-06, 07:41 PM	You should take a look at Nocturnomancer from ToM if you want an anti-caster mage. The shadowcaster levels it requires are worse than useless, of course, but his innate counterspell ability could really help shut down your red mage's opening salvo, and if he reaches 6th level of nocturnomancer, his ability to drop an enemy's effective caster level by 4 will make him a real terror.
Sir_Wolfgar 12-09-06, 11:24 PM	:bump:
runestar 12-09-06, 11:53 PM	You could try one of those gimmicky one-shot kill builds. Use fatespinner to force a massive penalty to your foe's next save, then follow up with a feeblemind or some other instant-kill spell. Limited wish can work as well.
Tevish Szat 12-10-06, 12:04 AM	double post
Tevish Szat 12-10-06, 12:04 AM	how about Mage-Killer from Magic of Faerūn? a PRC designed as a mage specialized to kill other mages. Unfortunatley, ti dosn;t do much but boost saves tyo help you resist your oppoennt. other than that, take Silence, all forms of Dispel, and plenty of save-or-die (mostly fort save spells there)
AegisShade 12-10-06, 12:24 AM	A spelltheif at about 13th level could demolish a 10th level wizard pretty quickly (if his player is smart.) Unfortunately, I'm not sure they would make very good tournament material.You can say that again. And again. And again! Spellthieves are pretty much one of the worst classes you can send against a mage. They perform sneak attacks, which require either flanking (this isn't a royal rumble, is it?) or surprise. For the latter, they do have access to invisibility spells (and my own personal favorite trick, a blinding surge imbued set of daggers), but the first thing a mage should cast as a buff is True Sight. Of course, you could use the UA facing rules to backstab them, but we rarely see that due to the extra learning curve there. Furthermore, even if he does hit with all his sneak attacks, they do piddly damage compared to a fighter or rogue, and by that time, he's put himself in range to get save-or-die'd by his opponent. So let's put away all thoughts of a spellthief beating a mage one-on-one arena style. Spellthieves are perhaps one of my favorite classes out there, but they are made to be team players, not gladiators.
YamiSouru 12-10-06, 03:20 AM	hrmm. you want charactor developement and a mage tournament right? and you want the red to have a chance to win...might i suggest a beguiler/nightmare spinner to face off against your red wizard? the nightmare spinner prc is a nasty class built around exploiting the enemies fears so it would present a good chance to really see what the red wizard fears and also as a user of illusions it presents a odd challenge for the evoker, the challenge being can he fight what he cant see. Add that in with cloaked casting and surprise casting and you have a deadly opponent. after that throw in practiced spell caster,spell focus (illusion) and a few other nasty things and you should be able to crack the red wizard while giving him enough chance to save himself.
angryman 12-10-06, 03:33 AM	1) Win initiative 2) Hold action 3) Nuke mage every time he tries to cast 4) Profit
Sir_Wolfgar 12-10-06, 05:38 AM	YamiSouru- I think you've just gave me the second combatant. I might even just rip the sample NPC beguiler out of the book, add the PRC and throw it at him, he won't be expecting it. So here's my three mages to compete in the tourney 1. 10th lvl sorcerer, with a tribal feel and necromantic spell selection. 2. 9th lvl beguiler/2nd lvl Nightmare spinner 3. 9th lvl abjurer/3rd lvl Intiate of the Sevenfold Veil Go from classic, to new, to super hard.
angryman 12-10-06, 09:57 AM	Or you could make some crazy melee mage with Tenser's and some potions, haha that would be weird.
Sergikins 12-10-06, 09:59 AM	1) Win initiative 2) Hold action 3) Nuke mage every time he tries to cast 4) Profit so wrong 1) Win intiavtive 2) Hold Action and nuke mage eve.rytime he casts 3) ???? 4) PROFIT!!! anyway, i have been reading this thread,and it seems like said red mage has no chance. I'd reccomend making the opponent a level or two lower
angryman 12-10-06, 11:31 AM	so wrong 1) Win intiavtive 2) Hold Action and nuke mage eve.rytime he casts 3) ???? 4) PROFIT!!! anyway, i have been reading this thread,and it seems like said red mage has no chance. I'd reccomend making the opponent a level or two lower Haha, true...but yeah, are you trying to kill the PC or merely challenge him? A DM can always pull out the anti-XXX NPC, but it's not always pretty...
Thubby 12-10-06, 12:17 PM	make a wizard with a particular love of the word "counterspell". take a level in archmage, and the counterspeling thing, so you can turn spells on the enemy. combine with reactive counterspell, and improved counterspell. turn 1, cast some major offense spell, then stand back countering everything. when they finaly throw a target spell at you (and most mages will probably go for rays because some of the best spells are, or the fort save ones, most of which are target) it rebounds on them. they end up killing themselves. *insert maniacle laught here*
Sir_Wolfgar 12-10-06, 02:02 PM	Yeah, I might drop all the levels by one, but I still want there to be a challenge. And this is a "spell battle" from Forgotten Realms, where 2 mages agree to a non-lethal duel, and form a big bubble around themselves to fight in, where all damage taken is non-lethal. That way even if he loses he won't die.
YamiSouru 12-10-06, 04:51 PM	YamiSouru- I think you've just gave me the second combatant. I might even just rip the sample NPC beguiler out of the book, add the PRC and throw it at him, he won't be expecting it. So here's my three mages to compete in the tourney 1. 10th lvl sorcerer, with a tribal feel and necromantic spell selection. 2. 9th lvl beguiler/2nd lvl Nightmare spinner 3. 9th lvl abjurer/3rd lvl Intiate of the Sevenfold Veil Go from classic, to new, to super hard. glad to be of help. just be wary if your red realises that you ripped the beguiler example from the book. Also i would suggest raising the nightmare spinner level up to the 3rd lvl in the prestige class to take advantage of the spirit chill class ability (which does nonlethal damage whenever you cause an enemy to be shaken,frightened or what have you). "Listen Red Wizard, the man you have to face next...the spell he cast turned his opponents skin pale with fear and made him pass out, be wary and do not drop you gaurd."
RoamingArcher 12-10-06, 05:08 PM	Does the player typically start with a Fireball? If yes, have your enemy mage ready a Wall of Force, hemispherical version. Laugh as the Red Wizard roasts himself alive. It also works even if you don't metagame when you make enemies. Wall of Force doesn't let magic through it, so it makes a great opening defense. And if you let there be a few inches between where the wall ends and the ground, the enemy caster can throw his own spells, maybe an Explosive Fireball The sky's the limit. Also, must the enemy be a full caster, or even one at all? If no, then I recomend Warlock. Much fun.
YamiSouru 12-10-06, 05:14 PM	well if you go the warlock road i would suggest makeing him a warlock/wizard/eldritch theurge. the reason? being able to channel spell through your eld blast. i mean nothing say good morning sunshine like getting hit in the chest with a eld blast and then haveing it explode with the fury of a fireball.
turalisj 12-10-06, 05:25 PM	Or hit by an eldritch blast, then turn to dust from a disinigrate.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 12-10-06, 08:30 PM	Scroll of Spell Turning... You won right there. Ray Deflection is another good boost. Stick to fort save based spells. hmm, find a tactic no one else posted yet... Cast Solid Fog on them, then move where ever you want, Twinned Repeated thesis Fireball ftw. Use a Cleric, Dirge Of Discord/Symbol Of Pain/Silence and throw out Black Tentacles. All this just to watch them fail nearly evey spell. A masterwork dagger and scroll of Antimagic Field. Exotic-Wep-Pro (chain) + IM-Trip + Mage Slayer (feat) + anything. Hexblades and duskblades can pull this off. Define "caster" better if you don't want people meleeing. Violated Born Of Three Thunders Orb Of Cold. Save three times to advoid the all secondary effects, take 4d6 eletricity 3d6 vile and 3d6 sonic damage (cl10). Thats about it for now.. Simply reading a standerd action to use when they cast means you'll win. Winning init just means you do it faster.
Thubby 12-10-06, 08:52 PM	Violated Born Of Three Thunders Orb Of Cold. Save three times to advoid the all secondary effects, take 4d6 eletricity 3d6 vile and 3d6 sonic damage (cl10). i think you messed that up. 3 thunders only splits already sonic or electricity spells into half and half. and splitting spell damage into diferent types doesnt force more saves
Sir_Wolfgar 12-10-06, 10:01 PM	It's going to only be pure casters in the tourney. If I wanted to beat the wizard, I'd have him fight a mage-killer, but I want him to spell battle his opponent, not just serve as a sword storage device.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 12-14-06, 07:33 PM	i think you messed that up. 3 thunders only splits already sonic or electricity spells into half and half. and splitting spell damage into diferent types doesnt force more saves Huh? Orb Of Cold has a save or be blinded, Born Of Three Thunders adds two more, save or be knocked prone & save or be dazed. "Save three times to advoid the all secondary effects" is 100% accute. Care to try to correct me on something you know nothing about again?
Thubby 12-14-06, 09:56 PM	Huh? Orb Of Cold has a save or be blinded, Born Of Three Thunders adds two more, save or be knocked prone & save or be dazed. "Save three times to advoid the all secondary effects" is 100% accute. Care to try to correct me on something you know nothing about again? ok, i will. born of the 3 thunders only works with spells that already have the electricity or sonic descriptor. so how are you using it with a cold spell? unless your using a different version from me (comp arc). assuming it does work with this spell, after 2 saves, it would stop. the first would be for orb of cold. the next would see if it stuns people. 3 thunders only knocks prone those who are already stunned. so if they made save 2, save 3 wouldnt even be an issue. the caster is dazed by this feat, not the targets. and by the way, no need to be so rude about it, a simple explaination would have sufficed.
turalisj 12-15-06, 12:00 AM	Huh? Orb Of Cold has a save or be blinded, Born Of Three Thunders adds two more, save or be knocked prone & save or be dazed. "Save three times to advoid the all secondary effects" is 100% accute. Care to try to correct me on something you know nothing about again? Lost, please don't post things that make it sem like you are tryin to be insulting.... People around here tend to be very touchy (myself included)
Vaelan 12-15-06, 01:13 AM	Definitely Fatespinner. Free Action: Seal Fate Move Action: Draw a Rod of Quicken. Swift Action: Cast a Quickened Greater Dispel Magic Standard Action: Feeblemind with 5 points of Spin tacked onto it. Unfortunately, Fickle Finger of Fate is an Immediate action, so you can't use both it and a Quickened spell in the same round. If the rules of the tournament prohibit pre-fight buffing, replace the Quickened Greater Dispel Magic with Fickle Finger of Fate, just in case the Red Wizard rolls the 19 he will need to save against that Feeblemind.
Kiirdon_of_Aundair 12-16-06, 02:40 AM	First, if you want a battle against an evoker to be long lasting, you want high Refl, and a high touch. Second, you'd want energy resistance. My first advice, is forget the *all caster levels* rule and use an Enlightened Fist (Comp Advent 35) Good Refl and high touch are in the bag as well as some offensive casting. My second advice, there's nothing wrong with an NPC with a Dex of 30 at level 10.( A +10 bonus to reflexes and touch) My third advice is a Favored Soul (Complete Divine 7) with a good Dex, and some damaging spells(Energy resistance 10 to the chosen type at 5th lvl and again at 10th, which is a major bonus) My fourth advice is an Aleax (Book of Exalted Deeds 158) which has a plot twist built in. As a reminder, you do NOT want your NPC to win, just be a challenge.