Post/Author/DateTime	Post
twentythree 03-01-04, 02:08 AM	Ok... now this may sound stupid, but that is why I'm posting it. i want it to sound as "un-stupid" as possible before I present it to my DM. OK here goes: My next character will be taking a great many ranks in craft (weaponsmithing). Unfortunatley, we do not foresee a lot of downtime to use this skill. What my party and I came up with is some type of forge on a cart. Here's what I need now: 1. How much will this thing weigh, and how much would someone charge to make something like this? --I'm willing to put the cash in, even if it is a lot, and I have two strong guys willing to pull it, or i can buy oxen if necessary. 2. What kind of penalty would be imposed for using it while in motion? (if that is possible at all) --I'm willing, and even insistent that I take a penalty. I was thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of -5 or -10. Well guys, what do you think? Can it be done? --Brien
Sucineri 03-01-04, 02:17 AM	Well..I can't remember exactly what a forge is for some reason..but what I am thinking off the top of my head you need.. Anvil Hammer thingie Big pinchy clampy dealie Fireplace/Oven whatsit Blower/Bellow doodad Now if you were to transport it..via a cart or sumpin then I would say it needs to be covered or the constant breeze of moving will cool the metal down too fast to get any real work done..and if possible then you would need some seriously fire retardant wood or whatever for the cart to be made of..and strong wood at that to hold the weight. So I would personally say it isn't possible..but other people here might find a way for it to work out.
twentythree 03-01-04, 02:20 AM	I realize that those are limiting factors. But covering it is not a huge deal to keep wind out. The flame-retardent wood might be a problem, but could there be some kind of magic (permamnent endure elements?) or something that could keep the wood safe?
twentythree 03-01-04, 02:50 AM	Forgot to mention: Money is no object. I have no plans to get it soon, but it's just there for me to dream and save for! :D
Sarta 03-01-04, 03:16 AM	heh, if money's no object... I can only say, "Daern's instant fortress". Otherwise, were I making the ruling, regarding a mobile forge, I'd allow it as a DM. I would just not let it give you the full benefits of a masterwork version of these tools -- space is cramped and the forge is probably a bit harder to operate at it's full capability. As such, I'd probably also rule that it is harder to work exotic metals in it and would either up the DC's for crafting them or simply not allow it to be done in that particular forge. my 2 cents. Sarta
twentythree 03-01-04, 03:22 AM	Originally posted by Sarta heh, if money's no object... I can only say, "Daern's instant fortress". Well that's hardly mobile! :rolleyes: But thanks for the input. I agree that it would probably be cramped and hard to work exotic metals. Either the DCs should go up or I shoud take a penalty to my skill check. I would be more inclined to say penalty to craft check because otherwise, with a higher DC, it would actually be possible for me to get MORE done inside my mobile forge, since progress is measured by "DC X skill check = progress". Any more Ideas? Hopefully some solid numbers on cost/weight?
Dartanel 03-01-04, 03:56 AM	Actually, not as hard as it sounds. Tools, easy to carry, cheap to buy. Anvil. Really just a solid striking surface that can take the blows needed to shape metal without significant damage. An adamantite cutting board would suffice for this purpose. Say about 3,000 gp. Though you may have to spend more if you want to work tougher materials (like adamantite) So plan on a 4-5,000 more to have it magically treated. Forge. Just something to heat the metal to a point that it's soft enough to work. A magical toaster oven would suffice for this purpose. Wonderous item - Heat/chill metal command word activated. No bigger than a chest or footlocker.
Raynard the Black 03-01-04, 04:15 AM	If money is no object, have a mage research making a portable forge. Like Daern's instant fortress it springs forth from a small cube when activated. When deactivated it shrinks back down to cube form. You could even include a complete blacksmithing shop into the item so that the elements would not affect your forge-work. I would think that the cost would be on par with Daern's instant fortress at 55,000. It just has a different purpose than the fortress. Hope this helps.
Sarta 03-01-04, 04:23 AM	Originally posted by twentythree Well that's hardly mobile! :rolleyes: Heh, yeah, I forgot the thing has to be emptied to be deactivated. In the one campaign where we actually had one to use, the gm ruled that only creatures had to be outside first and the things inside shrank and were preserved with the tower. Which would make for a great instantaneous smithy wherever you went. But thanks for the input. I agree that it would probably be cramped and hard to work exotic metals. Either the DCs should go up or I shoud take a penalty to my skill check. I would be more inclined to say penalty to craft check because otherwise, with a higher DC, it would actually be possible for me to get MORE done inside my mobile forge, since progress is measured by "DC X skill check = progress". I agree, I'd probably simply assign a skill penalty rather than raise DC's. I'm not quite certain what your intent is with this. If it is to drive the smithy to the next town to set up shop there, no problems other than slight penalties due to less than ideal working conditions. However, if you intend to work in it while the wagon is en route, I'd really nail you with penalties, require the roads to be of the best quality, require the wagon to move at half speed, and probably throw occasional reflex saves to ensure you don't get jostled into touching or falling on the forge. Any more Ideas? Hopefully some solid numbers on cost/weight? Well, one way to do it slightly on the cheap would be to have the wagon or cart it is in made with reinforced redwood (or a comparable wood in your campaign world). Redwood is inherently very fire resistant and fairly dense and fibrous, but also more brittle. I'd rule 1 inch planks of redwood have a hardness of 3, 12 hit points, and a 3 fire resistance vs regular wood with a hardness of 5, 10 hit points, and no fire resistance. You would want to reinforce the bottom of this with metal to support the weight. The cost for a wagon or cart made from redwood would really depend on the scarcity of redwood in the region that you have the custom wagon built. If a common wood, it would probably be about triple the cost for a regular wagon due to the metal reinforcements and the custom job. The forge and anvil, while still being very heavy, shouldn't be beyond the carrying capacity of a regular wagon or cart. They will probably need to be custom-made in order to fit and work well in your wagon or cart so you may have to pay a bit more for custom jobs, but shouldn't require more skill or materials than any other forge or anvil a smithy may make. As such the costs shouldn't be much more than the costs for regular versions of these. When GM'ing I tend to wing these costs being that the players handbook doesn't really take into consideration that an anvil, while a tool like a set of awls, should cost more due to the sheer amount of metal involved. In terms of weights, anvils really can vary -- anywhere from 100 pounds to 500 pounds is not unheard of. I'd stick to around 250 pounds, which should let you make most weapons and may only have problems with large forged goods like large shields or platemail. The forge itself will probably weigh around 75 - 100 pounds and be pretty big. You will also need a barrel for water and other tempering chemicals. Personally, I would stick to an open cart with a raised metal framework that would allow you to hang heavy canvas from any of the four sides to keep out wind or to cover the top to keep rain out (when not in use). You wouldn't want to have it be a completely enclosed wagon due to already cramped quarters and the over-whelming heat that would be generated from the forge. To be a truly functional smithy you are more than likely also going to need a second regular wagon just to store firewood, unworked metal, works in progress, and extra water. Adding these goods to your already very heavy mobile shop will really weigh it down and make working in it nearly impossible. Your finished wagon with just the essentials will probably weigh around a ton, which is not at all out of the question. After all tuns of wine weigh 2000 pounds and were carried from town to town by merchants in wagons. You probably will need a team of at least 4 horses or a couple of oxen to draw it and they aren't going to be moving all that fast. Here's a fun link that may help you out: anvils (http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/) Hope this helps, Sarta
Dug Ironbeard 03-01-04, 05:45 AM	How about taking a ring of sustenance. I think it cost 2000 gp. It's magic will alow to only sleep for 2 hours a day, so at night when the party is resting you could be at work in your forge. I used it with my mage to scribe scrolls it's great! Problem is I think it will make some noice, but you won't get any penalties for being on the move and such. Hope it helps Greets
Trillia 03-01-04, 05:54 AM	Flame retardant wood there's rules for in the Seafarer's Handbook, I think, but I don't know them off the top of my head. Another way to stop the wood burning would be to plate it in something that doesn't burn - if you're really not bothered about the cost, mithril's nice and light. Another solution would have to be a portable hole. I saw a Dragon article on just how much stuff you can get into those things - if you can have a two-room house for a halfling, you can certainly have a forge, and the walls'll keep the draughts out. Maybe you could even take a cart to set up the hole on the bottom of, so you could weaponsmith while travelling? If not, you'll need someone guarding you while you work - think how nasty it'd be if someone picked you up and wandered off...
jasper 03-01-04, 08:29 AM	Are talking about a small portable forge or a rolling forge wagon. Have horses will forge for fodder. As small portable forge would weight in total about 100 pds. This includes small 20 to 35 pd anvil, tools, empty quech tub, bellows, and forge. The forge would be around 2 feet by 2 feet by 18 inches. Coal and other raw materials are not include. In back of wagon increase the anvil to 50 + pds. Line the floor with either slate/ sheet of raw iron/ hide or two of leather which you wet down occasionally . Have the sides either fold down or roll up if canvas. I would not allow you to use the mobile forge while moving unless you are on a good Roman road. Or if I did allow moving no taking 10.
Aucturos 03-01-04, 11:29 AM	Isn't there a magical Portable Forge already figured out somewhere in the Magical or Wondrous Items pages of the DMG? I could've sworn I saw it in there...
exploding_brain 03-01-04, 12:29 PM	Using the rules in the Stronghold Builder’s Guidebook, you could try the following. A basic smithy takes up a single “stronghold space”, and costs 500 GP to build. A fancy smithy will cost 2000 GP. Masonry walls will cost another 2,500 GP. Now we need it to move, so we enchant it with the Crawling ability for 1,000 GP, and give the Crawling ability a speed of Fleet (so you can keep up with a typical horse and rider), for 13,500 GP. Total price of a magical, self propelled smithy, 17,500 GP. A typical “stronghold space” is 20ftX20ft. I would think that you want something smaller, more like 10ftX10ft. For something 1/4 as big, you could probably get away with half the price. A possible modification to the smithy’s speed might be that it can move faster, but can only move for 8 hours/day. You DM should probably adjust these numbers to make it fit his campaign.
Rock_Slice 03-01-04, 12:40 PM	The most difficult part of a portable forge would be the heat source to melt the metal. My suggestion: go on a quest to get a pet Thoqqua. Keep it in a portable hole(20,000gp) (keeping it fed with rocks, earth, etc.). The inside of the hole will very soon become hot enough to use in a forge. Alternately, you could create a portal to the inside of a volcano, and just have an everlasting supply of magma. This would be done with a Ring Gate (40,000gp)
The Swedish Viking 03-01-04, 01:16 PM	Very well... The wagon would probably be just that - a wagon. A suggestion is to have it made by two layers of planks, supported by several beams. that ought to hold the weight of it all. The wheels might have to be supported by a lot of metal; perhaps just plain barrel-tops (perhaps more than four-wheeled too). Then, you nail two beams to each corner, and build a roof (sloping roof) on top of these beams. Fix leather canvas to cover the sides. Then, make a base for the fireplace using cut stone, fixed in place with nails or whatnot, and make the "frame" of the fireplace out of stone, maybe lined with metal. Place the anvil there as usual. Build a chimney right above the fireplace/forge. Fix a barrel filled with water into place, as well as the anvil itself. Fix the blow-thingy-bellow to the fireplace/forge. Fix two oxen to the wagon front, and you have your rolling forge. I wouldn´t price this at more than, at most, 100 gp (note that that is more than a normal artisan would earn in his entire life), probably not more than the cost of the oxen plus 20 gp.
Tabitha Chergoba 03-01-04, 01:23 PM	What about a Wonderous Item that uses the Fabricate spell?
aka Jimmy 03-01-04, 01:29 PM	If money is no object then you should just look into getting an extradimensional space with a forge in it. As for a mobile forge, the problems will be: 1) Finding a "wagon" strong enough to support the weight. Wood construction will NOT be enough. This thing will have to be made of iron/steel. 2) Finding something strong enough to pull it. A very large team of oxen should do it. But it will be slow. Like the pace of a person walking on foot. 3) Finding roads good enough to travel over. Something this heavy will be very very easy to get stuck in mud etc... Just read up on the problems the germans had in WWI with their heavy artilery once they were off the road. It can be done, but you will only be able to travel the very best roads and will get stuck often anyway. Other than that, there is absolutely NO reason for a forge like this to impose a penalty. You will be moving so slowly, and the whole thing will be so large, that the smith will not be able to tell the difference between working on such a contraption or a normal forge.
twentythree 03-01-04, 02:16 PM	Just to clarify, I am planning on using it in motion, if possible. Also, I'd prefer to have it made with mostly mundane materials. The portable hole idea is neat, but doesn't quite fit what i was looking for... Also might I not suffocate in a Portable hole? I also think the crawling ability is cool, but I don't have Stronghold Builder's Guide. How fast would something with that ability move? As far as heating and cooling, I will have craft wonderous item, so could I make something like was mentioned earlier? Some sort of box/barrel/etc. with command words for heat metal and cool metal? Would this be sufficient heat? How much do you think the price of this would be for me to make? A magical toaster oven would suffice for this purpose. Wonderous item - Heat/chill metal command word activated. No bigger than a chest or footlocker. Thanks for all the input guys! I hope by the end to have a solid number for weight, price, and penalty to bring to my DM. --Brien
aka Jimmy 03-01-04, 02:59 PM	Originally posted by twentythree Just to clarify, I am planning on using it in motion, if possible. Also, I'd prefer to have it made with mostly mundane materials. The portable hole idea is neat, but doesn't quite fit what i was looking for... Also might I not suffocate in a Portable hole? I also think the crawling ability is cool, but I don't have Stronghold Builder's Guide. How fast would something with that ability move? As far as heating and cooling, I will have craft wonderous item, so could I make something like was mentioned earlier? Some sort of box/barrel/etc. with command words for heat metal and cool metal? Would this be sufficient heat? How much do you think the price of this would be for me to make? Thanks for all the input guys! I hope by the end to have a solid number for weight, price, and penalty to bring to my DM. --Brien Does the spell description for "heat metal" say how hot it can make a metal? I assume you intend to be forging steel in this furnace? That means either a pretty darn sophisticated blast furnace or a really friggin hot magic one. I suppose if you get a magic blast furnace then you could probably make the whole thing light enough to put in a normal wagon. That still means you are stuck with "normal wagon" speeds: really really slow. A wagon does not move nearly as fast as a person on a horse does. In fact it is comparable to a person walking on foot even on good roads. You will be lucky to move 10-15 miles a day unless you are on a road equivalent to a paved Roman Imperial Highway. Again, even in a wooden wagon, there is no reason at all (other than "game balance") for you to take a penalty to your craft rolls in a set up like this. Note: If your DM allows you to make a magic blast furnace and they are not already commonplace throughout his world, you are going to make a fortune my man. Stop adventuring NOW and go into business, you character will be a millionare within a couple months. Edit: If you don't have a magic furnace, then you are looking at several TONS of weight... at least if you want to make anything useful. If you are just making horseshoes and other iron implements (only suitable for weapons in a society that has not discovered how to forge steel) then you might be able to make a fairly small furnace... say only about a ton or so. However, a blast furnace is a very large piece for work. You need a lot of heat shielding, fuel supply (goes through fuel very fast), multiple bellows, people to work all those bellows etc... It is a very large operation. Again, look at the solutions the Germans worked out for moving around their heavy artilery in WWI once they left the railroads. That is the kind of weight you are looking at for a steel forge.
exploding_brain 03-01-04, 03:02 PM	Originally posted by twentythree I also think the crawling ability is cool, but I don't have Stronghold Builder's Guide. How fast would something with that ability move? When one makes a stronghold mobile, one must make two choices. The first choice is the method of travel. A crawling stronghold creeps across the land. This is the most basic from of travel, and the cheapest. Other options include burrowing, flying, sailing, and submersing, none of which sounded like what you wanted. Secondly, the one must chose a speed for the stronghold. The faster it can go, the more the enchantment costs. Here's where you may need to make some changes. I assume that the rest of your party won't be traveling with you in your forge. Mounted parties often move at 4 mph. If you don't want to slow them down, you would want a speed of "Very Fast", or 4 mph, for a cost of 17,500 GP. The thing is, strongholds can travel all 24 hours of a day. So a "Very Fast" stronghold could go 96 miles in a day, instead of the 32 miles that a mounted party can manage. I'd estimate that a "Very Fast" stronghold that could only travel for 8 hours a day could be priced like a "Fleet" stronghold, 13,500 GP. Your DM might even let you just reduce the price by half when you reduce the ability by two thirds, so it would cost 8,750 GP. Some of the speeds available are Slow, 1 mph, 11,000 GP Fair, 1.5 mph, 12,500 GP Fleet, 2 mph, 13,500 GP Fast, 3 mph, 16,000 GP Very Fast, 4 mph, 17,500 GP Extraordinary, 6 mph, 21,000 GP Incredible, 10 mph, 25,000 GP There are some other kinks to work out. The smithies listed in the SBG are 20 ft X 20 ft by 10 ft high. That's too big for you. Making a smaller smithy would save a little on expenses, especially the expense of the walls. But to make a smaller smithy that is still usable might require extraordinary craftsmanship. It would also limit the number of assistants that could aid the process. It might even require some kind of magical forge that doesn't need an attendant to pump the bellows. With all these variables, you will probably need to negotiate the price with your DM, but at least you have a ballpark figure to start from.
aka Jimmy 03-01-04, 03:10 PM	Oh yeah, something to consider for DM's who are thinking about allowing moving strongholds: It makes castles/walled towns/fortresses all but obsolete. It would also play merry hell with regional economics. Think about it. It is not the "moving fortress" aspect that would have such a huge impact on an essentially "medevil" society. Rather, it would be the ability to move thousands of tons weight around over land fairly quickly. With regards to weapons of war, this means that siege engines capable of reducing any fortress (eg: the trebuchet nicknamed "Werewolf" built by Edward II... I think... maybe Edward III... to take out that scottish castle) could constructed and moved to the battlefield ready for action. Without such an innovation, siege weapons must be custom-built in place at every battle. The invention of mobile heavy-arillery inevitably makes any fortress made of stone obsolete. As for economics, the ability to move thousands of tons of goods overland at 4 MPH would set of a kind of "mini-globalization" effect. It would cause massive social change at the very least.
The Swedish Viking 03-01-04, 03:13 PM	Why does everybody seem so obsessed with creating totally weird magical versions of perfectly legible non-magic ones?
Not a monkey 03-01-04, 03:33 PM	Originally posted by aka Jimmy As for economics, the ability to move thousands of tons of goods overland at 4 MPH would set of a kind of "mini-globalization" effect. It would cause massive social change at the very least. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Okay, no one tell this guy that there's also rules to make them fly at these speeds...
aka Jimmy 03-01-04, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by Not a monkey :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Okay, no one tell this guy that there's also rules to make them fly at these speeds... yeah, yeah, I have the book. But really, innovations like these would have a garguantuan socetial impact. A bunch of mobile fortresses (especially one that could fly) would have an impact at least as large as the invention of railroads / locomotives did in the real world. Remember after the war of 1870 Bismark (I am pretty sure, it was one of the Germans anyway) said you should never again build any fortresses, but instead build railroads (He was rather conclusively proven correct not many years later too). Mobile fortresses would have the same effect. Castles, and the nobility whose power they represent, would become obsolete.
escherblacksmith 03-01-04, 04:39 PM	just for a little real-world perspective (btw the trebuchet was a WarWolf, not werewolf) . . . Re-read Jaspers bit: As small portable forge would weight in total about 100 pds. This includes small 20 to 35 pd anvil, tools, empty quech tub, bellows, and forge. The forge would be around 2 feet by 2 feet by 18 inches. Coal and other raw materials are not include. In back of wagon increase the anvil to 50 + pds. Line the floor with either slate/ sheet of raw iron/ hide or two of leather which you wet down occasionally . Have the sides either fold down or roll up if canvas. This is pretty much dead-on. Although I would have at least a 100 lb anvil. Just so you know, this kind of thing existed in the US at least as far back as the American revolution and has been documented back to about the 1500-1600 in some of the armies warring across Europe. So, even though you will have less equipment, I would say it rates the cost of a normal smithy, this would include customizing a standard 2 oxen or 4 horse wagon (assuming nothing inherently magical). Now I know people don't like real-world to infiltrate the game, this was the question, so we may as well have a real worldish answer. That said, there is simply no way for the smith to work on the move, even with a very smooth roadway the wagon would have to be shocked to hell and gone to keep it smooth with no shifting while being pulled by livestock. Now if you had some golems on wheels . . . but I digress. So, to sum up. 1. cost of regular smithy 2. cost of livestock (2 oxen or 4 horses) 3. cost of special materials (if mithral or adamantite is being worked) 4. assume they cannot work on the fly. 5. no penalties for working in the wild, except potential chances for interruption by orcs, owlbears etc. (forges being somewhat noisy) 6. I would also limit the amount of material carried to no more than that required to make 4 large weapons or some combination of smaller ones. If you want to get real specific you can make him list out what he supplies he is carrying and how they tie out to objects made. Now, I would also say that magic can be used to enhance all of the above so that it is quiet and hidden and super stable or whatever, to get the final desired effect. But, that is just my opinion.
exploding_brain 03-01-04, 04:42 PM	The costs for mobile strongholds should prevent that. Compare the prices of the four exapmle strongholds in the back of the SBG. The floating tower costs a phenominal amount of money. You could build 40 cheap keeps for that price, and probably get more military power out of them. Even a tiny structure like the mobile forge costs so much money that I can't imagine any way to recover the investment in using it to transport goods, as compared to other available, cheaper methods.
aka Jimmy 03-01-04, 04:46 PM	Yes, you can make a small portable smithy that size. However, it will not be hot enough to forge steel, only iron. This is suitable for most tools, horseshoes etc... but not for weapons or armor in a steel-using society. For that you will need a several-ton blast furnace.
escherblacksmith 03-01-04, 05:14 PM	Well, actually no, a "several ton blast furnace" is only necessary for the melting and smelting of large amounts of steel. We are assuming that the smith here has a supply of steel stock to use. I have used a double-bellowed blown forge and have forged a tomahawk out of high-carbon steel. I have seen swords (up to 3 ft blade-length) made in a similar forge. If you wish to heat up a sword, for instance, you would need a decent long forge with the bellows blast coming through multiple inlets, or you could do what the Japanese did and run your steel back and forth through the blast to heat up the whole thing. In general you are never working on more than 3-4 inches of steel at a time anyway (at least by yourself). Not until you harden-temper. on another note, steel armor requires even less heat than your average horseshoe, since the mass of steel at the point you are working it is quite a bit less.
Conaill 03-01-04, 06:03 PM	Yeah, a portable forge should easily fit on a regular wagon. Of course, you're not going to be *melting* any iron or steel with a setup like that, but that's rarely necessary. For a real-world example... if you've ever been to a Rennaissance Fair, you may have noticed some of the weaponsmiths have a small portable forge in their booth. Could be as small as a BBQ-like contraption with a bellows. BTW, in our own campaign, we do indeed have one of those "vovable strongholds" that Jimmy seems to be afraid of. It's called a ship! And yes, my alchemist tinker gnome does have an alchemist lab set up that he can use while sailing. I believe we just assigned a higher price for the lab, and a -2 penalty on the craft check. If you have the option, I would strongly recommend a ship rather than a wagon - we oftemn spend days sailing from point A to point B, which gives my alchemist lots of time to craft stuff. One more point... The standard Craft rules make an adventuring crafter PC all but impossible, simply because it takes so damn long to craft even the smallest item. Try to convince your DM to allow you to craft at a faster rate, for example calculating progress in sp/day (7x faster) or gp/week (10x faster) instead of sp/week. This is no way near being unbalanced, since the magical crafter will still craft stuff an order of magnitude faster. But at least it makes it *possible* to craft something interesting in between adventures. For example... a simple flask of alchemist's fire costs 20 gp, DC 20 to craft. With a +10 skill and taking 10, progress "by the book" would be 400 sp/week. So one flask of AF takes half a week to craft. It takes about as much time to craft a wand of fireballs (5th lvl) as three lowly flask of AF... see my point?
Fixxxer 03-02-04, 01:57 AM	Just for clarification's sake, all you truely need for a workable forge is a hammer, an anvil, something to hold the working material with (tongs), a suitable heat source, fuel (coal and coke) and (if you want to make anything of quality) a file. My own forge (minus the lower half of the brick fire pit and the power tools) could easily be mounted and secured on a large trailer. Working while moving would be very problematic, but always having it nearby would be easy enough. Alternately, if all you wanted was to have your forge nearby, you could create a variant version of Lemund's Secure Shelter that turns out as a smithy instead of a dwelling.
jasper 03-02-04, 09:10 AM	Originally posted by aka Jimmy Yes, you can make a small portable smithy that size. However, it will not be hot enough to forge steel, only iron. This is suitable for most tools, horseshoes etc... but not for weapons or armor in a steel-using society. For that you will need a several-ton blast furnace. :) :) :) sorry jimmy I have blacksmiths, frontiersmen reactors, and civil war people who say you wrong. I will give you could not do sheet steel for plate mail. The first is what I help load in back of a friends truck when he goes on demos for schools. granted he use a metal hand crank blower because it takes more time with a standard wood and leather bellows to get the fire to temp. He has done a sword but does not do at demos due to time factor. If you going to be forging on the roll I would not allow take 10 or 20. And -2 if going medium speed. No work if going fast.
Fixxxer 03-02-04, 02:55 PM	Originally posted by jasper :) :) :) sorry jimmy I have blacksmiths, frontiersmen reactors, and civil war people who say you wrong. ...and as a blacksmith, I have to agree with these people. My first forge was a small coal-burning deal made out of the brake drum from a toyota. It was tiny. That didn't stop me from working steel at all. It burned hot enough to melt the inconel grate I used to keep the coal from falling into the air supply line and getting caught on the clinker breaker...and that's saying something.