A monk with wings... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A monk with wings... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dungeon Mastr
09-22-03, 10:16 PM I have a player who thinks his tiefling monk absolutely NEEDS wings. I have a problem with this for the following reason:

He is a monk, and as a monk, a lot of his expertise is in moving around quickly. Wings seem very cumbersome to me. In fact, wouldn't they incur some kind of negative modifier when tumbling and doing other such acts with huge wings sticking out of his back?

Thanks for your help! :)
Salla
09-22-03, 10:31 PM Not really ... they could be advantageous. That, and if you observe a bird flying, they can collapse those wings very tightly against their sides/backs for aerodynamism. It would be presumable that a humanoid with wings could do the same.
Riznar
09-22-03, 10:34 PM Sounds good to me...the winged template in the SS book though is like ECL +2, which is a lot I think...
Fixxxer
09-23-03, 12:14 PM Originally posted by Riznar
Sounds good to me...the winged template in the SS book though is like ECL +2, which is a lot I think...

It is a lot, but I think it's warranted. A winged PC is going to be able to do things and get places that a normal PC of his level couldn't.
chris7476
09-23-03, 12:31 PM The Races of Faerun book has a bunch of feats for expanding the celestial and feindish heritage of aasimars and tieflings, one of which grants wings. You need a few prereq's though. Check it out.
Millennium
09-23-03, 01:58 PM If he was born with the wings, then I don't see why there would be much of a penalty to Tumble and such. The character is by that point used to having wings, and if they've practiced tumbling have undoubtedly developed techniques which work around the wings (assuming they're any good, of course).

You could make him take the Outsider Wings feat if he wants them that badly. Or you could give him vestigial wings (which don't allow him to fly) and Rule-0 that he needs to take some sort of feat (or chain of feats) to master flying before he can actually do so. If all your player's going for is the looks, then vestigial wings should be more than enough to satisfy him, and if he wants a flying character then he can still "earn his wings," so to speak.
TheMightyMcClaw
09-23-03, 04:30 PM Also, you could take the Wings of Flying magic item. If you want them to be part of your character's physiology you could simply have them always out.... otherwise, you would be able to collapse them when, say, you needed to crawl through a tight space.
Dungeon Mastr
09-23-03, 04:48 PM Thanks for all the help! :)

I know all about the feat in RoF (in fact, this is how he wanted to acquire your wings) but it still sound a tad bit ridiculous to me. Wings are a fairly large advantage for a low level character, and he really hasn't explained to me why he wants them yet, other then "they're cool."

This, couples with the fact hes a beginner and playing an evil alignment makes me want to deny him the feat even more.

Any additional comments? :confused:
Al-Ashrad
09-23-03, 06:58 PM "Wings are a fairly large advantage for a low level character, and he really hasn't explained to me why he wants them yet, other then "they're cool."

This, couples with the fact hes a beginner and playing an evil alignment makes me want to deny him the feat even more.

Any additional comments?"

Well, there are a few disadvantages regarding having wings. First, I'm sure that quite a few regular folk will look at a winged person with at least some suspicion. However, since this character is evil, he may not care all that much.

Second, and more importantly, there are other things that fly... nasty things. Say the party is roaming the wilderness, and the winged monk decides to recon the area from the sky. Well, while scouting ahead, he stumbles upon a griffon, winged horse, dragon... you get the idea.

Finally, I think the character may develop some psychological flaws or quirks as a result of having wings. Being underground, for example (how many times does Aerie complain/ comment about being underground in BGII?), may be problematic for someone who is used to flying. Use that to your advantage. Nothing comes for free; there's always a flip side. Being locked up may pose problems too, especially if the character gets used to a couple of hours of flying in a day.

On a similar note, in a Vampire the Masquerade game I ran a long time ago, someone had the Lasombra flaw (can't see own reflection and can't be photographed). That character ended up on the brink of insanity because they did not know what they actually looked like (how many times do you look at your own reflection in any given day... count it out sometime... it may be more than you suspect). I think people look at that flaw as being an easy flaw to take, because they forget just how social that game is... imagine going to a major social event with lipstick on your teeth and not knowing and also having no way of knowing. I also had other NPC vampires who knew about this player's flaw and would do little things to him (acting like he had something on his face or teeth when nothing was there, etc.).

Bottom line, there's always a disadvantage to any advantage.

-Al-Ashrad
angry_keebler
09-23-03, 07:58 PM Just give him realistic wings for a human sized frame.

To have powered flight, ignoring the potential energy reserves required, it requires a certain sized wingspan for purposes of aerodynamics.

Trust me on the physics here, because I don't want to spend the next hour explaining them.

For a 5'8", 150lb humanoid shaped object, you need a stiff, straight extended wing, about 14' long, and 5' deep, and about 1' on the thick end of the cross section.

So a person, when flying, needs around a 30' wingspan(that's including chest width)

Even if you could fold them up, and tuck them against your body, you'd trip on them more often than not.

Additionally, you need to have the analagous muscles, something humanoids don't have.

So, maybe with a 20 strength, you could spread your wings, but probably not fly.

Let him have his wings. Then, when he realizes how impractical they are, he'll want them severed.

Not a lot of 15 foot wide doors in the old temple complex.

If you want the actual physical requirements, in terms of energy expended, mass ratios, etc., i'll give them out. But you probably don't need them for D20.
AntiDjinn
09-23-03, 08:11 PM Also, if he thinks he is going to be doing monkish combat while flying he should probably guess again. If during all those years his character spent training at a monastery he didn't have wings and now he gains them in-game then it is sure bet they didn't take that into account when teaching him his moves. Just having wings when his fighting style wasn't developed by winged folk is going to throw things off even when he isn't actually flying. If he is in the air then imagine trying a kick, sweep or throw that was meant to be used by a blanced character who has leverage and solid ground to brace against, who is instead gliding with nothing to push against but air.

If you don't want to go with the +2 ECL (more than reasonable: Fight is a 3rd level spell) then at a minimum feat slot should be spent on "Adapt Style" to allow him to use his monkish abilities normally even when not flying. Additional feat slots should be spent training in aerial combat; till he actually takes such feats he can fly from point A to point B, but can't engage in combat without going to ground.
Anouilh Lyn
09-23-03, 08:40 PM you guys are being pretty harsh on the subject... its not possible to get outsider wings anyway until your level 3, which basicly puts you at an effective ECL of +2 anwyay... also, dont forget that your manuverability is average, which is no where near as good as someone with the winged template would give you, considering all you need is a 13 base dex to get perfect manuverability, since you also get +4 dex naturally, and +2 wisdom.

anyway, yeah, some of you bring up good points about flying and fighting, which i can understand since it is hard to fight when you dont have very good manuverability, you cant take to the air and do a full attack action since you cant hover without falling back to the ground, nor can you move backwards, or do other dexterous manuvers easily. all of these problems alone entail enough of a penalty as it is unless the character ALSO takes the improved flight feat to increase his ability.

as for the tumbling thing... yeah, it will take some effort in game to master tumbling with wings, but once he figures out how best to fold his wings there shouldn't be a problem. a whole new feat seems rediculous though, since people only get so many anyway!
Lord Snow
09-23-03, 09:25 PM This is just an idea.

How about, the player actually grows the wings out of his back when he needs them? So most of the time, he looks normal, but when he needs the wings, thirty foot leathery bat wings rip out of his back. You could also limit the number of times/day or the duration during which the wings are usuable. A feat may be required to sprout the wings, as well. Perhaps every time the feat is taken, the character can use the wings an additional time or for a greater duration.
Stormranger
09-24-03, 04:17 AM Uh, guys, I really think that you might want to limit the amount of physics that you bring into all this, because when you break it down, there are a million creatures in the D&D universe that are just physically impossible if you suddenly apply proper anatomical principles of movement and so forth. If you give your PC 30' wings, then you'd really have to do the same for all the other human-sized and larger monsters with wings that can flit about as agile as you please (wyverns, pegasi, arakokra or whatever those bird-like humanoids from FR are called - there're just too many, and it's not really reasonable in every case to say that they're just naturally or magically adapted for flight, with hollow bones or supernatural buoyancy or whatever). There's got to be any easier way of discouraging him from having wings, if that's what you're aiming to do.
astute1
09-24-03, 11:21 AM why don't you just let him research around until he finds a ritual that gives him winged template - at the cost of some gp and a +2 ecl. Or, create a Prestige Class that gives the player wings as the 'trump' ability (at 5th or 10th level) see how much he's willing to sacrifice for them. I would note that wings are much more valuable for melee guys than for spellcasters. Monks, especially, who have no access to decent ranged attacks, benefit greatly from getting wings - suddenly they're charging those flying spellcasters or monsters. It's something you should give some thought to.
gnimish
09-24-03, 02:57 PM Dungeon Mastr, your comment puts it all in a new perspective:

This, couples with the fact hes a beginner and playing an evil alignment makes me want to deny him the feat even more.

Evil alignment shouldn't have anything to do with your decision - after all, Tieflings are predisposed to evil alignments, and this player is a beginner, so he's not as likely to play "against type".

The concept of the batwings on an evil monk is pretty interesting - and likely fits well with many anime/video fighting games (I can think of two or three examples off the top of my head) so it's easy for him to picture it. As you said:

Wings are a fairly large advantage for a low level character, and he really hasn't explained to me why he wants them yet, other then "they're cool."

As a beginner, he may not realize just how big a difference wings can make in game play. He's fundamentally right - demonic wings on his evil character ARE pretty "cool".

If you really feel it's too powerful, give him the game mechanics reason: It's a +2 EL option, which means you will level slower than everybody else (initially, he probably won't care about that), and he can't have it if you are all starting at 1st level.

I don't buy the physics arguments here for two reasons: 1) too many other examples of creatures impossible without magic (as previously mentioned by Stormranger), and 2) He has outsider blood - since when do demons/devils worry about the laws of physics to determine whether they can fly?

So, my advice is to let him have the wings, as long as the party EL will allow them. There will be significant RP issues - after all, he now LOOKS like a demon/devil, is evil, and will have a VERY difficult time convincing people otherwise. I don't think you need to punish him for taking the wings in terms of his other abilities (the +2 EL does that enough already), although he certainly won't be able to wear standard clothing (armor isn't an issue) or certain other wearable magic items, and he can't fly if heavily loaded.

Remember - its his first time out. As the DM, your goal should be to make sure he enjoys it, as long as it's not at the expense of the rest of the party.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dungeon Mastr 09-22-03, 10:16 PM	I have a player who thinks his tiefling monk absolutely NEEDS wings. I have a problem with this for the following reason: He is a monk, and as a monk, a lot of his expertise is in moving around quickly. Wings seem very cumbersome to me. In fact, wouldn't they incur some kind of negative modifier when tumbling and doing other such acts with huge wings sticking out of his back? Thanks for your help! :)
Salla 09-22-03, 10:31 PM	Not really ... they could be advantageous. That, and if you observe a bird flying, they can collapse those wings very tightly against their sides/backs for aerodynamism. It would be presumable that a humanoid with wings could do the same.
Riznar 09-22-03, 10:34 PM	Sounds good to me...the winged template in the SS book though is like ECL +2, which is a lot I think...
Fixxxer 09-23-03, 12:14 PM	Originally posted by Riznar Sounds good to me...the winged template in the SS book though is like ECL +2, which is a lot I think... It is a lot, but I think it's warranted. A winged PC is going to be able to do things and get places that a normal PC of his level couldn't.
chris7476 09-23-03, 12:31 PM	The Races of Faerun book has a bunch of feats for expanding the celestial and feindish heritage of aasimars and tieflings, one of which grants wings. You need a few prereq's though. Check it out.
Millennium 09-23-03, 01:58 PM	If he was born with the wings, then I don't see why there would be much of a penalty to Tumble and such. The character is by that point used to having wings, and if they've practiced tumbling have undoubtedly developed techniques which work around the wings (assuming they're any good, of course). You could make him take the Outsider Wings feat if he wants them that badly. Or you could give him vestigial wings (which don't allow him to fly) and Rule-0 that he needs to take some sort of feat (or chain of feats) to master flying before he can actually do so. If all your player's going for is the looks, then vestigial wings should be more than enough to satisfy him, and if he wants a flying character then he can still "earn his wings," so to speak.
TheMightyMcClaw 09-23-03, 04:30 PM	Also, you could take the Wings of Flying magic item. If you want them to be part of your character's physiology you could simply have them always out.... otherwise, you would be able to collapse them when, say, you needed to crawl through a tight space.
Dungeon Mastr 09-23-03, 04:48 PM	Thanks for all the help! :) I know all about the feat in RoF (in fact, this is how he wanted to acquire your wings) but it still sound a tad bit ridiculous to me. Wings are a fairly large advantage for a low level character, and he really hasn't explained to me why he wants them yet, other then "they're cool." This, couples with the fact hes a beginner and playing an evil alignment makes me want to deny him the feat even more. Any additional comments? :confused:
Al-Ashrad 09-23-03, 06:58 PM	"Wings are a fairly large advantage for a low level character, and he really hasn't explained to me why he wants them yet, other then "they're cool." This, couples with the fact hes a beginner and playing an evil alignment makes me want to deny him the feat even more. Any additional comments?" Well, there are a few disadvantages regarding having wings. First, I'm sure that quite a few regular folk will look at a winged person with at least some suspicion. However, since this character is evil, he may not care all that much. Second, and more importantly, there are other things that fly... nasty things. Say the party is roaming the wilderness, and the winged monk decides to recon the area from the sky. Well, while scouting ahead, he stumbles upon a griffon, winged horse, dragon... you get the idea. Finally, I think the character may develop some psychological flaws or quirks as a result of having wings. Being underground, for example (how many times does Aerie complain/ comment about being underground in BGII?), may be problematic for someone who is used to flying. Use that to your advantage. Nothing comes for free; there's always a flip side. Being locked up may pose problems too, especially if the character gets used to a couple of hours of flying in a day. On a similar note, in a Vampire the Masquerade game I ran a long time ago, someone had the Lasombra flaw (can't see own reflection and can't be photographed). That character ended up on the brink of insanity because they did not know what they actually looked like (how many times do you look at your own reflection in any given day... count it out sometime... it may be more than you suspect). I think people look at that flaw as being an easy flaw to take, because they forget just how social that game is... imagine going to a major social event with lipstick on your teeth and not knowing and also having no way of knowing. I also had other NPC vampires who knew about this player's flaw and would do little things to him (acting like he had something on his face or teeth when nothing was there, etc.). Bottom line, there's always a disadvantage to any advantage. -Al-Ashrad
angry_keebler 09-23-03, 07:58 PM	Just give him realistic wings for a human sized frame. To have powered flight, ignoring the potential energy reserves required, it requires a certain sized wingspan for purposes of aerodynamics. Trust me on the physics here, because I don't want to spend the next hour explaining them. For a 5'8", 150lb humanoid shaped object, you need a stiff, straight extended wing, about 14' long, and 5' deep, and about 1' on the thick end of the cross section. So a person, when flying, needs around a 30' wingspan(that's including chest width) Even if you could fold them up, and tuck them against your body, you'd trip on them more often than not. Additionally, you need to have the analagous muscles, something humanoids don't have. So, maybe with a 20 strength, you could spread your wings, but probably not fly. Let him have his wings. Then, when he realizes how impractical they are, he'll want them severed. Not a lot of 15 foot wide doors in the old temple complex. If you want the actual physical requirements, in terms of energy expended, mass ratios, etc., i'll give them out. But you probably don't need them for D20.
AntiDjinn 09-23-03, 08:11 PM	Also, if he thinks he is going to be doing monkish combat while flying he should probably guess again. If during all those years his character spent training at a monastery he didn't have wings and now he gains them in-game then it is sure bet they didn't take that into account when teaching him his moves. Just having wings when his fighting style wasn't developed by winged folk is going to throw things off even when he isn't actually flying. If he is in the air then imagine trying a kick, sweep or throw that was meant to be used by a blanced character who has leverage and solid ground to brace against, who is instead gliding with nothing to push against but air. If you don't want to go with the +2 ECL (more than reasonable: Fight is a 3rd level spell) then at a minimum feat slot should be spent on "Adapt Style" to allow him to use his monkish abilities normally even when not flying. Additional feat slots should be spent training in aerial combat; till he actually takes such feats he can fly from point A to point B, but can't engage in combat without going to ground.
Anouilh Lyn 09-23-03, 08:40 PM	you guys are being pretty harsh on the subject... its not possible to get outsider wings anyway until your level 3, which basicly puts you at an effective ECL of +2 anwyay... also, dont forget that your manuverability is average, which is no where near as good as someone with the winged template would give you, considering all you need is a 13 base dex to get perfect manuverability, since you also get +4 dex naturally, and +2 wisdom. anyway, yeah, some of you bring up good points about flying and fighting, which i can understand since it is hard to fight when you dont have very good manuverability, you cant take to the air and do a full attack action since you cant hover without falling back to the ground, nor can you move backwards, or do other dexterous manuvers easily. all of these problems alone entail enough of a penalty as it is unless the character ALSO takes the improved flight feat to increase his ability. as for the tumbling thing... yeah, it will take some effort in game to master tumbling with wings, but once he figures out how best to fold his wings there shouldn't be a problem. a whole new feat seems rediculous though, since people only get so many anyway!
Lord Snow 09-23-03, 09:25 PM	This is just an idea. How about, the player actually grows the wings out of his back when he needs them? So most of the time, he looks normal, but when he needs the wings, thirty foot leathery bat wings rip out of his back. You could also limit the number of times/day or the duration during which the wings are usuable. A feat may be required to sprout the wings, as well. Perhaps every time the feat is taken, the character can use the wings an additional time or for a greater duration.
Stormranger 09-24-03, 04:17 AM	Uh, guys, I really think that you might want to limit the amount of physics that you bring into all this, because when you break it down, there are a million creatures in the D&D universe that are just physically impossible if you suddenly apply proper anatomical principles of movement and so forth. If you give your PC 30' wings, then you'd really have to do the same for all the other human-sized and larger monsters with wings that can flit about as agile as you please (wyverns, pegasi, arakokra or whatever those bird-like humanoids from FR are called - there're just too many, and it's not really reasonable in every case to say that they're just naturally or magically adapted for flight, with hollow bones or supernatural buoyancy or whatever). There's got to be any easier way of discouraging him from having wings, if that's what you're aiming to do.
astute1 09-24-03, 11:21 AM	why don't you just let him research around until he finds a ritual that gives him winged template - at the cost of some gp and a +2 ecl. Or, create a Prestige Class that gives the player wings as the 'trump' ability (at 5th or 10th level) see how much he's willing to sacrifice for them. I would note that wings are much more valuable for melee guys than for spellcasters. Monks, especially, who have no access to decent ranged attacks, benefit greatly from getting wings - suddenly they're charging those flying spellcasters or monsters. It's something you should give some thought to.
gnimish 09-24-03, 02:57 PM	Dungeon Mastr, your comment puts it all in a new perspective: This, couples with the fact hes a beginner and playing an evil alignment makes me want to deny him the feat even more. Evil alignment shouldn't have anything to do with your decision - after all, Tieflings are predisposed to evil alignments, and this player is a beginner, so he's not as likely to play "against type". The concept of the batwings on an evil monk is pretty interesting - and likely fits well with many anime/video fighting games (I can think of two or three examples off the top of my head) so it's easy for him to picture it. As you said: Wings are a fairly large advantage for a low level character, and he really hasn't explained to me why he wants them yet, other then "they're cool." As a beginner, he may not realize just how big a difference wings can make in game play. He's fundamentally right - demonic wings on his evil character ARE pretty "cool". If you really feel it's too powerful, give him the game mechanics reason: It's a +2 EL option, which means you will level slower than everybody else (initially, he probably won't care about that), and he can't have it if you are all starting at 1st level. I don't buy the physics arguments here for two reasons: 1) too many other examples of creatures impossible without magic (as previously mentioned by Stormranger), and 2) He has outsider blood - since when do demons/devils worry about the laws of physics to determine whether they can fly? So, my advice is to let him have the wings, as long as the party EL will allow them. There will be significant RP issues - after all, he now LOOKS like a demon/devil, is evil, and will have a VERY difficult time convincing people otherwise. I don't think you need to punish him for taking the wings in terms of his other abilities (the +2 EL does that enough already), although he certainly won't be able to wear standard clothing (armor isn't an issue) or certain other wearable magic items, and he can't fly if heavily loaded. Remember - its his first time out. As the DM, your goal should be to make sure he enjoys it, as long as it's not at the expense of the rest of the party.