Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ben Breiby 01-25-04, 12:48 AM	I have came across a small problem as of late. My normal Dungeons & Dragons gaming session occurs every Sunday, roughly from noon to six that night with one of the Dungeon Masters. My second Dungeon Master I play with occurs every other week or once a month and is normally on a Saturday lasting from six that night until the wee hours of the morning, normally we quit at about three or four that morning. This is where I come into a little problem. My first Dungeon Master who goes by the name of Austin is not the best at what he does. He is fairly new to the game, as is most of the group I play with, only recently did he buy the Dungeon Master and Player's Guide, along with a Monster Manual. The main problem I have with him is I do not think he fully grasps what he is indeed doing. He first got the starter set and was going to run a few basic adventures as arranged in the package for the players. This session I wasn't able to make, which limited them to two players, beings the fourth had arrived late and not made his character. The two players, a 1st level Fighter and a 1st level Ranger, had started in a dungeon room where they quickly dismissed a couple goblins. Upon entering the second room, they found another goblin and a bugbear. They were killed. I am not sure if this is the player's fault, or what but it reflects how he DM's. All I heard about the session was just driving me nuts. The 1st level Ranger is fanatical about catching a displacer beast, the 1st level Fighter is the same way about catching a Dire Bat. They even let their own personal gain come before the group, as the ranger had knocked the fighter out when they came upon a treasure chest filled with gold. This makes me mad in a few ways, the first way is I think that Austin could have simply handled this situation easily but he thinks that it is funny and they seem to like it, and the second reason I am going to have to be in the session with them and I think it makes me look bad. My second Dungeon Master that I play with is named Riley. He is similar to Austin has about four Dungeons & Dragons books, the miniatures, starting package set, and all those other goodies but I think he doesn't fully grasp what he is doing. The first session I ever had with him, was horrible. We started in a town of less than two hundred, and as the adventure progressed everything was out of whack. One of the players, Riley's younger brother, was visiting a magic shop. In a village of less than two hundred people, they have a magic shop which was giving off +2 magical items mind you. He doesn't make-up character sheets for his non-playable characters or the villains we will be fighting, gives outrageous items to those who play in his campaign; we had a player with a +2 Bastard Sword and Crimson Armor (full-plate with immunity to fire/heat) and a plethora of magical items at only our second level. Now out of the eight players who I play with this is how it is broken down. Austin runs a group where myself, and three others play. Riley's group has myself, Austin, and two other people; no one else from Austin's group because Riley thinks that they know nothing of Dungeons & Dragons. So last week at Riley's house, Austin was going to take a swing at DMing with us. It was terrible. We were to all start off with 6th level players, which was the first mistake. They were all playing Celestials, and Half-Dragons which I think they miscalculated by a few levels and I don't think Austin had prepared at all. We plowed through what he gave us in the dungeon, until we approached the main bad-guy. As us four 6th level players went up against our evil nemesis, we were made aware of it being a 20th level Sorcerer. Right here I knew that it was going to be stupid. Austin had given it just shy of one thousand hitpoints, had forgotten to inform us of information throughout the first half of the match he was a human then the second half he suddenly became half-vampire, while roleplaying someone rolled a twenty-five and hit him, whilst moments later when a twenty-seven was rolled we missed. We brought this up to him, my friend Matt who knows all the rules and myself, where he just shrugged and said my mistake. It was one of the most horrible moments of my life. And, I have come to one conclusion. I have to start DMing the gaming sessions, or I will go mad. Now, I just have to figure out how to tell them? I do not want to go up to them and say straight to their face that they are crappy Dungeon Masters and I want to take over. But I do not want to sit in the foreground watching them butcher the game to shreds. What do you think I should do?
Mitchell 01-25-04, 01:43 AM	Tell them the truth. That you want to start a campaign of your own, that you won't be able to play in their games anymore, but that you would like it if anyone would like to join your group. Maybe you can supplant one of the two, taking over either the saturday or sunday session. If no one bites, are there other players in your area that you can group with? Every DM has their own style, and obviously neither of these are yours, but it's possible that this current bunch won't like your game, because you will evidentally be "stricter" than what they are used to.
killedquickly 01-25-04, 02:41 AM	I think you have several questions you still have too answer. The first is, are the two new DM's incapable of knowing what they are doing, or simply not had enough experience yet? Second, would these DM's make bad players? If not, you solution is simple. Simple tell them that their "campaigns" have inspired you to DM yourself and that you would like them to play in it. This solves the problem well if the two DM's are simply inexperienced, because they would be learning from YOU how to do things. If they are simply incapable of understanding then I suggest cutting off all contact with them, if possible.
Tarlac-Redclaw 01-25-04, 02:42 AM	lol i feel your pain man and know exactly how you feel. I had a DM that did everything you said. Your best bet would be to DM yourself, or find another group. There's really no easy way of telling them, you just have to buck up and say something. If you can pull it off, try telling them how much you've always wanted to DM and you'd like a shot at it. Once you have the reins of the group in your hands so to speak, NEVER LET THEM GO. I'd also suggest keeping an eye on both of them if you do decide to DM and let them play. I had the nightmare DM playing in the game i ran and his playing style was the same as his DMing. I felt really, really bad when his wife wouldn't let him play past 10pm and we always played til 12 or so (which everyone knew, but the player that brought him in failed to tell him) so after a couple of sessions he left because i hinted that he would be missing all the important and cool stuff by leaving 2 hours early. :smirk: And a couple sessions later after playing in his game and going from lvl 6 to epic, with 2 diefic levels, every magical item in any book i could ever have wanted (including the ELH) and a trip to the Star Wars universe (it was a DnD game for pete's sake!) i took my leave.....with dignity :D
PaladinSix 01-25-04, 04:07 AM	First step, find some new players. I can never remember the name of all four Quad Cities, but there are four, right? Got to be another group out there somewhere. Try out your DMing on them; you may be a great hit. Meanwhile, maintain your games with the other groups. I know it's painful, but you don't want to sever the ties until you've got another thing going. Besides, D&D is like pizza (and sex); even bad pizza is still pizza. By the way, it's Moline, Rock Island, Davenport and ....East Moline, right?
Ben Breiby 01-25-04, 10:38 AM	Thank you, everyone for your advice in this painful moment that I am having here for myself. To be honest, the Dungeon Masters aren't that bad as players. This still kind of do some not-right things, but it is all in good nature and for fun which I can not blame them. The one problem I have though, they both own the Dungeon Master Guide and Monster Manual. I *know* that they will look at them throughout the campaign. Even though I tell them that I wouldn't enjoy them doing it, they will make up a reason to do it anyways; they did this in each other's adventures. And, the cities are Davenport, Bettendorf, Rock Island, and Moline. Of course, there are smaller towns inside and around them that can be considered the Quad Cities, these are; Buffalo, Silvis, East Moline, Milan, Riverdale, Coal Valley, et cetera.
Nom 01-25-04, 09:04 PM	Honestly, browsing the MM doesn't help as much as you might otherwise think. There are two ways to deal with the problem: First, decide what the PCs as adventurers really could know (make appropriate Knowledge checks if required). For example, folk lore might say that trolls will grow back if their bodies aren't burned, and everyone knows that you can't stab a skeleton. Once you've decided what's reasonable (and be generous, these are professional adventurers), then warn them if they start using "unreasonable" information. If they persist, consider tricks like announcing to the party that you're reducing the XP award for this encounter by 50% since the information provided has just made it easier. Assuming that the players have any sense of teamwork, it's more effective to mildly penalise the team, since the response will be to make the offending player step into line. Or whip out the players manual and have an OOC discussion between your monsters about the exact tactial capabilities of the players. The simpler way, as has been mentioned on other threads, is levels and templates. 6 kobolds isn't much of a threat. But a kobold sorcerer (sor7) with two elite (Ftr5) bruisers and 3 kobold rogues (Rog3) is (about EL 10). Once the players realise that you can easily modify the MM creatures to whatever capabilities you need, they'll pay more attention to you and less to the MM. Or their characters will die lots. (ideas credits to other people on these boards - this is just a summary)
Tarlac-Redclaw 01-26-04, 12:55 AM	Let em look in the DMG and MM. If they are checking on rulings you made to try to tell you it's done differently, just decide if you think what it says is better, and change it, or tell him you want it done this way, no if's, an's or but's about it. If they still try to hassle you, tell them you are the DM, you have the final say on rules and if they don't not like it they can sit there and pout. (you could say it in a nicer way, but why? :D ) Also, if they are scanning the MM that shouldn't bother you too much either, because unless your running a cardboard copy monster everytime, the hitpoints should be different and so should the feats, (feat changing is a must, most have mediocre feats picked.) Also, if one of them suddenly pulls out a cold iron arrow to bypass that damage reduction in the first round of combat when they normally use regular arrows and have never seen the beastie they face, throw a spoke in his wheel. He doesn't hit no matter how high he rolls. He'll be going crazy because he knows the AC of the creature. If he comfronts you about it, just tell him if he's gonna look in the monster manual like an immature brat, your going to continue punishing him for it.