Post/Author/DateTime	Post
metalmayhem80110 07-09-07, 07:37 PM	Well I'm going to be starting up a game (My first one) for six players. I know the game is supposed to be played with four players, but i normally play in 12 person groups, so this is a small game for me. The questions I need to ask are, how would I lower a monster's CR? Obviously with two more people than it was designed to face, it will be much easier to defeat. So what I was thinking was just increase the CR up by like one or two. Another question I had was would I need to add more treasure to accompany for the other players? The last thing I was hoping to get off of this was some really nice tips. Getting some help and tips from some experinced gm's would really rock. -Thanks, MetalMayhem80110
uglykitten 07-09-07, 08:14 PM	#1--get your guys to give you copies of their sheets. -__- I learned this the hard way. #2--Make sure that the lowest attack bonus can hit your monster's AC on a 10 or 12. Make sure that it works vice-versa. Make sure that if there are saves, they can make them on a 50% chance roll of 10 or higher. That's my general rule of thumb, always. Then again, I like killing parties. Haven't done so just yet. Don't just up the CR one or two. Pump it up to the max that they can hit within reason. Make it a challenge! Half Nymph Half Dragon vampires are fun...^-^
nightside_samurai 07-09-07, 08:21 PM	And to be the voice of reason: 1) Don't actively go out of your way to kill your players. A lot of DMs have the "them vs me" attitude instead of seeing D&D as a team activity. 2) Test out CRs of monsters. Have a few short encounters where you see how they fare against several CRs and adjust your encounters accordingly based on how they do. 3) Be ready to be firm. Though you're playing with friends, be sure to remember that you need to be firm in your role as "god" of the campaign. That doesn't mean you need to control everything or that you can't change things for your players, but defend your choices and don't let people walk all over you. Good luck and let us know how things go :D
metalmayhem80110 07-09-07, 08:48 PM	Thanks for the advice guys, keep it coming :D And do you just ajust the average monsters so that the party has a 50/50 shot of hitting it and vice versa or just the bosses?
nightside_samurai 07-09-07, 08:53 PM	The official ruling is that the CR of the encounter should be the average level of a standard party (a Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, and Rogue) but if your party is bigger or smaller than standard you need to adjust the difficulty accordingly. There's info on this in the DMG :)
Magnus029 07-09-07, 09:04 PM	As far as encounters go, with the extra people, I tend to add a few extra baddies to a fight, say instead of 6 goblins maybe 10. Maybe tack on 2 extra Kobolds with a level of Sorcerer or 2 to make things interesting (assuming a low level party of course.) Treasure, I would just keep it appropriate for the encounter, as XP will be lower for the extra people, treasure should even out as well. Tips... be firm, don't railroad, have fun. ASK FOR FEEDBACK FROM THE GROUP and be prepared for constructive criticism. Noone can tell you better than your players how you are doing.
metalmayhem80110 07-09-07, 09:16 PM	Lol if you only knew my group, if something sucks they will be sure to let me know... Also can you let me know where in the DMG that is at?
Necrosis 07-09-07, 09:21 PM	try useing http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm
metalmayhem80110 07-09-07, 09:29 PM	That is a pretty cool tool, only problem is that I don't get net were I do my gaming. So if something un-expected happens (i refuse to expect the unexpected) it could be a train-wreck.
Mock26 07-09-07, 09:34 PM	Cheat. If you find that you have made an encounter too difficult for the group just secretly do something like lower the hit points of the monsters so that they will be defeated before they defeat the party. Then, for future encounters, either lower the HP for the monsters or simply remove one of the monsters in the encounter. You can do the reverse if you make the encounter too easy. After a little while you will start to instinctively get to know the power of the group and will automatically create properly tough encounters and you won't need to cheat anymore.
DoveArrow 07-09-07, 09:48 PM	The questions I need to ask are, how would I lower a monster's CR? Obviously with two more people than it was designed to face, it will be much easier to defeat. So what I was thinking was just increase the CR up by like one or two. Unfortunately, there arent any official rules for lowering a monster's Challenge Rating. However, if it's something you're interested in, you might try taking a look at Chapter 5: Making Monsters in the Monster Manual to get an idea for how many Hit Dice you want the creature to have, and what special attacks you want to retain. On the other hand, there are rules for raising a monster's Challenge Rating. These are listed under Chapter 4: Advancing Monsters in the Monster Manual. Personally, I love improving monsters, because you can tailor the creature to your encounter, and it often makes for a much more memorable combat. Another question I had was would I need to add more treasure to accompany for the other players? I'm going to get back to this question more directly in a minute. However, I want to address something else first. My personal opinion is that it's a bad idea to just increase the CR of your creatures. Instead, you should increase the level of the level of the encounter by adding more monsters. The reason for this is that if even half of your players roll a higher initiative than your monster, they have the ability to concentrate three or four attacks on it, which has the potential of taking the creature down before it has a chance to retaliate. Increasing the number of monsters means that even if the players concentrate all their attacks on one creature, there are still two or three others available to put up a fight. So how do you calculate the level of an encounter for a group with more players than normal? Personally, I find it useful to calculate what the CR of the party is and subtract four. So for example, if you have six 1st level characters (a CR 6 encounter), the level of the encounter should be 2. Again, keep in mind that this is the level of the encounter, and not the Challenge Rating of the monsters the party should be facing. So getting back to your original question: Should you be giving the PCs more treasure than the standard level? The answer to this question is that if you increase the number of monsters in a given encounter, you're automatically going to increase the amount of treasure the PCs are going to receive. One last word of advice, before I go. Treasure is one of the easiest things to let get out of control in a game. I therefore think it would be wise to limit the amount of treasure you give the party as much as possible. One way to do this is to equip your NPCs ahead of time using the gear value table on page 127 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. That way, you can keep an eye on what your players are receiving. On the other hand, if you're using the tables for generating random treasure, make sure you read over the description of each magic item that the players get before you give it to them. If it sounds too uber, don't let them have it. Also, check the gold piece value of the items. A mattock of the titans isn't a particularly useful item, but it's worth 11,674 gold pieces if the party decides to sell it. Just something to keep in mind. Good luck with your game.
metalmayhem80110 07-09-07, 10:28 PM	Thanks for the advice. I can see the point of having multiple monsters instead of having one big adjusted monster. Ok so just to make sure i'm doing this right..... I'm starting the party at 3rd level. So what I would need to do if I'm just goign to be using base monsters is have the CR equal their adjusted level. So I'm going to say that with the extra characters the party could take a CR4 or a CR5 encounter, so would 2 CR2 Beasts and a CR1 level 1 druid be an ok encounter for the group?
danielinthewolvesden 07-10-07, 03:50 AM	With 6 players you hafta ask them to keep down stuff like cohorts, companions and summoning. Also, get one of the players to run Init for you. Balancing is easy- add 50% more monsters. BUT- be careful of having them gang up all on one PC! Another way to to add 50% more HP for the Monsters, not as good but it works.
Mock26 07-10-07, 03:57 AM	One good thing about having 6 players instead of four is that in some situations you cna simply multiply by 1.5 to get an appropriately difficult encounter. If, according to CR and EL 6 orcs is a perfect match for 4 players, then 9 would be perfect for 6 players. This might not always work, but it should work in a lot of situations. Of course, I don't use the CR or EL system so I might be way off my rocker.
deduke 07-10-07, 06:44 AM	Ok so just to make sure i'm doing this right..... I'm starting the party at 3rd level. So what I would need to do if I'm just goign to be using base monsters is have the CR equal their adjusted level. So I'm going to say that with the extra characters the party could take a CR4 or a CR5 encounter, so would 2 CR2 Beasts and a CR1 level 1 druid be an ok encounter for the group? 2 cr 2 beasts with a cr 1 druid is a fine encounter for your group, they should be able to beat 3 or 4 of these encounters on a single day. You can just hand treasure out as normal for the monsters you use, Since they are with 6 they will gain less xp per creature they kill and they have to divide the treasure by 6, as long as you stick to the normal guidelines in the DMG they should be fine.
DoveArrow 07-10-07, 11:30 AM	Would 2 CR2 Beasts and a CR1 level 1 druid be an ok encounter for the group? That sounds about right for a typical encounter. If this is the main boss, though, I'd make the druid somewhere around 3rd or 4th level.
sabrewolf 07-10-07, 12:04 PM	Well, Welcome to the group! Some things to know as a new DM: - You are begining, thus itīs no oneīs fault if the game begins too easy or too tough - you are trying to get it right but is learning as you go. (and is better to make slips in the begining then latter on, eh) :P - Listen to your players, their feedback is a good tool, plus players are a good source of adventure ideas. - Accept the unexpectedness: Like the fact you breathe air (and i hope you do) players do unexpected things, either rarely or oftenly, but they do. Either call a water break and use these 5 minutes to think "what next?" or improvise, but it will happen to you.. one day or another. :twitch: Oficial rule is "double the number, increase CR / EL by 2", with the inverse being true as well.. What it means is, against a level 3 party, a sinble CR 3 monster is fine, or two CR 1 monster, or four CR 1/2 monsters.. For a party it goes along the same line, four lvl 3 is a party ready to face CR 3 encounters, while eight lvl 3 is a party ready to face CR 5 encounters - standing in between, you can say your 6 player part instead add only 1 to the group level. As for encounter balance of party Vs monster CR, an encounter equal to the party group is designed that a party can face four of these enconters a day before stopping to rest and resuply. A more difficult challenge would be 2 levels above the group and they would face only two before needing to stop to rest adn resupply. On the same line, a very challenging battle would be 4 levels above, with the group exausing their supplyes on that single battle and probably loosing a member or two - or being very close to that.. Theory Vs Practice? My experience: The guidelines above are fine but (as others said) youīll need to test your ground a little to see how it works. Factors like the groupīs playing experience, their choice of characters, actual build (stats, feats, equip), all have imfluence on a battle, making it a little easyer or harder. Same goes for the environment and circunstance: toss a green dragon (with CR around the partyīs level) against them after plenty of warning and time for preparation and things shall go smooth for them; now, do like me and toss the same green dragon against unarmored warriors swimming in a lake and they are closer to death then they think. :evillaugh Start with challenges equal to (or below) the party level and increase it on next encounter - that will give you both time and chance to see the group in action and measure their strengh. Also, for a new group, it will give them time to see their own strenghs and weakness as the battles goes and get harder. Another thing, it works better when you increase the foesī numbers instead of their individual power (CR). I found that the minimum CR my group can face without being too easy is their level -4 (or -6 with many advantages) and increase the numbers to 8 (or around 16). That gives each a target, with a couple ones facing two foes (or each facing multiple foes).. That makes them think of tactics. Single foes are good on beginings when the groupīs average power is not too high (due to equipment) or (mostly) as major battles, usually with a small battle before it or small minions along with it; Itīs specially good for tough foes with fery high ACs and HPs, or againt foes with many attacks or that can deal area damage. Single or two tough beasts when simply dropped in front of the group are usually chopped to bits when the group foccus all attacks agaisnt them. About treasure, you can follow the treasure Vs CR random tables on the DMG or follow the example NPC and the NPC average gear and give your foes (all or just the (mini)"bosses") equipment - that the party will loot / pillage after defeating them. Guess thatīs all for now, so.. Good Luck, Good Game and Have Fun...
zelf_gale 07-10-07, 12:25 PM	I'd increase your Encounter Levels by 1 which will scale your treasure up as well. I'd also use a limit on cohorts, such as only allowing their use when less than 6 players are present for a session, and letting players have a replacement feat be active when they cannot use Leadership.
bodrin 07-10-07, 12:56 PM	I have eight players in my campaign, usually all thats needed to make the encounter challenging for the group is to max out the hit points of the creatures already written into the encounter. This way the party players have to hit the creatures more. It doesn't unbalance the gameplay and as has been stated earlier if it looks as though the group is on the verge of defeat, secretly knock a few of the remaining hit points off. This also means that there is no need to increase CR or ELs, plus keeping the treasure / magic the same makes for some interesting role playing when it comes to dividing the loot later. I also find that a nice lean Magic item campaign makes the players think how to use their character abilities better. Players that are laden down with cash and magic items become lazy and just fall into the predictable pattern of too dependent on their "Artificial" Enhancements to overcome obstacles. Hope this helps!
JohnJohn 07-10-07, 01:29 PM	There's been some great advice already given so I will just throw in my $.02 :) Keep things simple. New DM's tend to want to detail everything and have stacks of notes piled up beside them. There is no way to remember it all and when they realize they forgot something they get flustered. All you really need for the first session or two is a) have an idea what campaign setting you are going to use if any... that can decide what races/faiths/classes are available. A good thing about D&D is if you change your mind later you can always world hop. Some trap, evil npc or what have you sends the party to some other world/plane (well campaign setting). b) keep it simple. You need a little village where the party can get supplies, rest, go to the bar, stay at the inn. Put some random encounters around the village involving the slaying of said beasties. Have a dungeon or ruin nearby begging to be explored and having its beasties cleared out... Very simple and straightforward and it never gets old. Every blue moon I go back and reread the 1st ed. DMG. It had a sample dungeon in the back. it was about some lost monastery. When ever I read it my hands still itch for some dice to make a character and play in that starter dungeon. :) There are a bunch of old modules floating around that are great starting adventures for new DMs that you might want to look at (maybe a friend has one you can borrow or you can get them online fairly cheap).
metalmayhem80110 07-10-07, 09:51 PM	There has been some awesome tips here, thanks guys. (This is a long read and you are going to have to bare with me) In the begining of the game I'm planning on having the party start out on an island. The other thing important that I was having them do is all working for the king, they still have religion but are a small group for the king. Since they are still lowbies in the begining, I was thinking about giving them lowbie tasks. So I was planning on having a ship go misssing after a storm and having the group look for it. There have been talkings about a ship on the southern part of the coast, so they would go check it out. There are going to be high waves slamming up against the coast, higher than normal. When the group gets close to the ship I'm going to allow for spot checks, if any of them make a DC20 or higher they will notice a human sized figure run off from the ship towards the water, he is in a dark cloak and carrying a box. If the group still decides to investigate the ship, they will find that it has been severely damage. The ship looks like it has been really destroyed, there are large bite marks all over the ship. As they are investigating the ship, after like 5 minutes I will ask for another spot check DC25. If anyone makes it, they will notice that a wave is coming in that is almost twice as big as any of the other ones. If a DC30 is made (Which I doubt) I will tell them that there are 2 shadowy figures inside of the wave. The 2 shadowy figures coming in inside of the wave are 2 Terelens (pg. 174 out of the Fiend Folio) with the cloaked figure riding on top of one (He will be first level, up to 3rd level druid. I'm still trying to decide that). The Terelens are going to cgarge out of the wave ad get near the party (Like 50 or 60 ft.). So after the combat, like any respected DnD party, they are going to loot the body. They are going to find that he has a symbol (I havn't figured out exactly what the symbol will look like, but I'm planning on having the BBEG in the end brand his employees. The box that the druid ran into the water with will be missing, if they look in the water it will be like a DC20-25 to find it. The box is holding a gem from this continent in my game called The eye of Creation. The gem is hard to get because the continent is full of vicious mutated creatures. The gem is the first one actully ever retrieved. Do you think that this is an ok encounter for 6 3rd level characters?
bodrin 07-11-07, 02:33 PM	This looks okay for a nice challenging encounter. I would have the Ship about 120 / 150 feet out in the sea, (About 8 Swim checks out at half speed DC15), lazily rocking back and forth caught on the rocks. Maybe 15 to 20 foot depth of water. Describe the sea as medium heavy just to forewarn them that it is a risky and dangerous task that they are undertaking if they decide to swim, but hey Who dares Wins. If you have access to StormWrack take a look at page 83 regarding the Balance checks on board a ships deck. Heeling Deck DC10 Same as Sloped Floor Pg67 PHB Surf, Light DC10 Roll, Heavy DC15 Surf, Heavy DC15 Yardarm DC15 Difficulty Modifiers Wet Deck DC+2 High Winds DC+2 Icy Deck DC+5 Severe Motion DC+5 Underwater DC-10 Check Modifiers Body Brace +5 One-Hand Brace +7 Two-Hand Brace +10 When the wave hits the ship have them all make Balance checks to remain upright as the waves crash around them during the combat rounds. Dramatic tossing and movement of the deck will make the encounter challenging to the pcs whilst the Terlens can take advantage of their unique movement abilities, Land, Air and Water. Have the waves crashing into the deck as they fight, Concentration and Balance Checks! If any characters fall in you can have one or two foes, kept out of the ship combat, in the water which they will have to contend with, use these only if the pcs fall into the sea. If they don't take a dive, the foes don't need to reveal themselves. Once the combat is over they can just swim away, Spot check for the characters to see them just to let them know that other opponents were ready to fight!! Don't bring the Druid into combat to soon either, play the bad guy intelligently, use the accomplices first to weaken the group but remember everybody needs to have fun not just the DM, so don't kill the players straight away. Above all make it a memorable encounter and your players will recount their best bits, which may also include the worst wounds taken, at future gaming sessions and they will always remember that first game. Have fun!:)
Mathus 07-11-07, 03:11 PM	Be careful when doing water based fights or "you were sleeping" based fights. Those who wear armor and you take that ability away from them (i.e. they need to leave their armor on the shore) you will find you will end up with character deaths and possibly the loss of one of your players. Other then that it sounds like a good outline for a first adventure. Just be prepared for your players to fail all those skill checks to. If you want them to find a clue you will need to either throw it in their lap or set up mutiple instances for them to find it. I have had a number of bad suys with the symbol or key to enter the room of the BBEG and my players either forget teo search the body or choose not to. In those cases either the door becomes mystically unlocked or every bad guy they fight is now carrying a key on them. If that gem on the bottom of the water or that symbol on the druid is a nessasary next step clue think of the contingency plan of if they do not find it or search for it.
Ace_of_Night 07-11-07, 03:12 PM	In case the Eye of Creation is an important item for the campaign and you actually want your group to find it, I'd certainly not make it DC 25 to find, more like DC 15 (as the above guy said, it's ok to cheat sometimes and make the difficulty a bit less.. difficult if you want your players to actually achieve something, just don't overdo it). Also, another advice is to either make sure that your players do what you want them to go do. For instance: Maybe they will refuse working for the king, so make it worth their while with a big phat reward. Maybe they won't remember or won't know the druid ran overboard with a chest, in that case, make them remember somehow if you really want them to find the Eye of Creation. A possibility would be to let some water creature come up on the deck and hand it to them as their "well-deserved trophy"... Or something more credible if you can think up something better. PS: Bad Mathus for posting 1 minute before me :P
metalmayhem80110 07-11-07, 10:11 PM	Well the fight isn't going to take place in the water, the monsters were just going to come out of the water. I think there was a misunderstanding when I talked about the Eye of Creation. The Eye of Creation is a mysterious island that has incredibly powerful creatures roaming on it. They have been "mysteriously" mutated. (Basically a place for the party to end up going later on). That is why nothing has ever been taken off the island before, whenever someone tries they are either killed, or mutated themselves. The chest isn't incredibly important to find, I might drop the DC to 20 or 15, it is just something that will change the plot. And Lol, I'm not worried about the party not looting the druid's body, it is something that comes as natural as breathing to my group.... And about them all working for the King, the way I have it set up they will all either know each other or be brought together by the king. Also, what level would you guys have the druid be? I'm thinking about having him be 2nd level. But I'm still debating have two first level druids.
Mathus 07-12-07, 02:05 PM	You mention you have 6 players. I assume all 1st level? Your party is than a 1.5 ECL. At that level and due to them having the ability to "gang up" on the druid I would raise his level to 3 or 4. This is especially true if they are going to be able to sleep for the night directly after. In effect, even though the druid is just a leader of a party, if he is the last guy they fight for the day he is that day's BBEG and should have a bit of power so that the party can unload on him and not have him die immediately.
Heros_Backpack 07-12-07, 02:33 PM	Very simple and straightforward and it never gets old. Every blue moon I go back and reread the 1st ed. DMG. It had a sample dungeon in the back. it was about some lost monastery. When ever I read it my hands still itch for some dice to make a character and play in that starter dungeon. :) And if you don't have the 1E DMG, you'll find exactly the same sample dungeon in the 3.5 DMG. :D
Ace_of_Night 07-12-07, 03:13 PM	The Eye of Creation is a mysterious island that has incredibly powerful creatures roaming on it. Sorry about that, in that case I just read you wrong. You mention you have 6 players. I assume all 1st level? Your party is than a 1.5 ECL. At that level and due to them having the ability to "gang up" on the druid I would raise his level to 3 or 4. Actually, he said the characters were all level 3. Anyway, if the druid is supposed to be a boss over the Terlen from the fiend folio (the CR2 flying sharks if I'm not mistaken? Don't have my books with me here) you shouldn't make his CR lower than that of the Terlen.. I'd say make it a level 5 druid, if you have 6 level 3 players that have some game experience and if this is their only fight in the whole session. 6 level 3 players against 2 CR2 things and a level 1 druid is rather overkill. Either that or make it a level 4 druid but throw a few more Terlens at the players (4-5 of them) Kudos on the story part though, especially for a first time DM... The first story I ever had was that the group went to a cave and killed kobolds (not saying it wasn't fun though :P)
spoogemonkey 07-12-07, 06:02 PM	Six players is going to be hard for a first-time DM..... not the encounters..... just trying to keep the game moving briskly. Keep them busy. Draw maps. Pass notes. Make bored players take listen checks - EVEN if there are NO monsters. Make them worry. Sometimes little monsters make the same noises, or have the same (brimstone?) smell as dragons.... Give them all stuff to do - one map drawer, one init guy, one treasure recorder..... make one guy keep track of "rounds" (it makes them worry that something else is going to happen.) A worried party is having fun!! You will learn to get through: overnight travel shopping making things learning things QUICKLY - get them done and MOVE on. The thing you have to guard against in a big party is splitting up - KEEP them together. Don't get bogged down with one guy doing something and FIVE waiting for action. When things slow down..... something needs to start a fight. A fighting party is a happy party.
Ace_of_Night 07-12-07, 06:23 PM	Six players is going to be hard for a first-time DM..... not the encounters..... just trying to keep the game moving briskly. Keep them busy. Draw maps. Pass notes. Make bored players take listen checks - EVEN if there are NO monsters. Make them worry. Sometimes little monsters make the same noises, or have the same (brimstone?) smell as dragons.... Give them all stuff to do - one map drawer, one init guy, one treasure recorder..... make one guy keep track of "rounds" (it makes them worry that something else is going to happen.) A worried party is having fun!! You will learn to get through: overnight travel shopping making things learning things QUICKLY - get them done and MOVE on. The thing you have to guard against in a big party is splitting up - KEEP them together. Don't get bogged down with one guy doing something and FIVE waiting for action. When things slow down..... something needs to start a fight. A fighting party is a happy party. I agree with most of your post except for the last sentence.. But that might just be because I'm one of the few remaining believers that D&D is also a roleplaying game, and not just a hack 'n' slash wargame with dice, where you kick in a door, kill all monsters, and move on to the next door within reach. So in other words, I enjoy the out of combat moment as much as those in combat, just make sure something happens, like you said. Be it combat, be it roleplay, be it creepy sounds, weird smells, or even out of game laughs about something completely irrelevant :P