Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Frag 04-24-07, 03:49 PM	Hi guys, We are currently brainstorming a parry rule to make combat more entertaining and less “the first one who will run out of hit point die.” What do you guys are thinking about this. I personally think that it could diversify combats a lot depending of what you are facing. So help me refine this rule … I surely forgot about something. Parry Rule: A character can sacrifice one or more attacks to try to parry opponent melee attacks. At the beginning of the round, the character says that it is his intention and chooses which of his own attack he will sacrifice. He can choose to sacrifice as much attack as he wants too. When an opponent attacks the character, the character can try to parry the attacks that would have touched otherwise. In that case, the character rolls a d20 + all attack bonuses (same bonus as the attack he sacrificed) . If he rolls higher or equal than the attack roll coming from the opponents, he parried the attack. The character must say right after the opponent touches that he wants to try to parry the attack. He cannot wait until all attacks are done to decide which one he wants to parry. Any kind of melee attack can be parried; including special attacks like grapple, bull rush and trip. If the opponent does not touch at all and the character didn’t have to parry, his attack(s) are lost anyway. A natural 20 cannot be parried. Example: Eddy is a fighter Level 6, he has two attacks (base attack +6 and +1) and he has a strength score of 16 (+3 bonus). So his melee attacks bonuses are +9 and +4. Eddy has an AC of 15. Eddy, while walking in the forest, cross the path of a wolf. The wolf has three attacks (Claw+3/Claw+3/Bite+5). The Wolf has an AC of 13. Combat begin - Initiative is rolled - Wolf->18 and Eddy-> 10 - The Wolf will attack first. - Eddy says that he will use his second attack to parry. - The Wolf attack, .1st First claw miss (roll 3+3 = 6) .2nd Second claw touches! (Roll 16+3 = 19) [Eddy choose to try to parry and roll a 18+4=22 (this is the bonus of his second attack)] so the wolf claw is parried (22>=19) .3rd Bite Touches! (Roll 19+5 = 24) and Eddy cannot parry anymore since he sacrificed only one attack and suffer 7 hit points of damage. - Eddy attacks, but since he sacrificed his second attack to parry, he only has one attack left. . First attack touches (roll 18+ 9) and the wolf suffers 11 hit points of damage. The wolf dies.
darkneolink 04-24-07, 03:56 PM	Well I say that it would be better like this lets supose that we have a goblin a orc and Bob the barbarian and inciatives goes like this Goblin > Bob > Orc The goblin atacks as normal Bob decides in his turn that he will sacrifice hi attack The orc attacks and miss The goblin attacks and hits Bob decides to Parry Bob parrys and is happy Well just thinking and about the parry I would rule d20+Dex modifiers- armor penalty+ number of attacks sacrificed because is harder to parry in a heavyer armor I think But let other PEACH you before you decide n_n
trapspringer 04-24-07, 04:05 PM	Nah, 'cuz this means a rogue will never hit a fighter. A fighter has two attacks at level six, while our rogue only has one. In addition the fighter is better at hitting things, and focused on TWF. The fighter sac's his off-hand dagger attack to parry (which he does at a -2 penalty with a total of {str +2, BAB +6, MW weapon +1, TWF -2} +7), and follows that up with two attacks at +7/+2 with a lonsword for 1d8+3 damage. All the rogue can do is take a shot at hitting with his measly +5 (with which he would need to roll a fourteen to hit anyway if the fighter in question is wearing full plate). The rogue doesn't stand a chance. The way to spice up combat and eliminate the "I hit you for seven, you hit me for nine" is to incorperate dynamic environments into your battles. Such environments must force the players to interact with them. A 40X40 foot room in which ever section of the floor deals 4d4 damage to anyone occupying it every other round will force movement and make players think. Couple that with a few "safe" platforms elevated slightly above the ground along with some bad guys using reach weapons and you won't be playing "who runs out first." The solution is good DMing, not a house rule (although your concept is solid, just don't do it to mask a symptom of a problem). Not that there is anything wrong with a fighter beating a rogue in one-on-one combat, but this really, really swings the odds in the fighter's favor. This anecdote just serves to illustrate that point, it holds true for any level and really points out just how powerful TWF would be at all levels. Can a fighter parry a 6d6 claw attack from mega-uber dragon? That doesn't seem right.
Murrdox 04-24-07, 04:10 PM	I think it's a good mechanic that you could have fun with. I think I might limit it to parrying an attack from a melee weapon. I'm not sure about parrying natural attacks and weird attacks. - Bites - Claws - Wing attacks from a dragon? - Slam attacks from a Gelatinous Cube? - Touch attacks from an evil cleric casting "Inflict" spells? Personally for the above odd situations... I'd limit it to parrying an attack made with a melee weapon. Also, I don't know if I'd allow a character to parry while he was flat-footed like in your example, or if it wasn't his turn yet. Assume it's the second round of combat. You could do this one of two ways. Alan is attacking Bob. Alan attacks Bob first. Alan hits bob for some damage. Bob uses one of his attacks to attack Alan. He declares that he's saving his second attack for a Parry. Alan attacks Bob again. Bob parries the attack OR Alan attacks Bob first. Bob decides to parry. Bob has already used one of his attacks to parry. Thus, he only gets one attack against Alan. He does so. Alan attacks Bob twice. Bob can parry the first attack, but he already attacked earlier, so he has no more attacks left. He cannot parry the second attack. If you see the difference in my examples, in one instance, Bob must declare on his turn which attacks he is saving for parry moves. In the second example, Bob can declare on-the-fly if he is going to parry or not. However, if he does decide to parry, that uses up any attacks he can make when it is his turn.
orionm42 04-24-07, 04:11 PM	Personally, I think what you are trying to accomplish is already contemplated with the combat expertise feat and the fighting defensively rules. With that said, if you are going to do it this way, I would suggest making it a feat. Also, I don't like the idea that you don't lose anything if the attacker does not strike. In other words, if you are going to parry, I think you must parry every incoming attack in the round...as long as you have a sufficient number of your own attacks.
Solik 04-24-07, 04:15 PM	Trapspringer pointed out a few issues with this writeup. I was going to suggest the link in my sig, but it's been pruned. Le sigh. I've got to stop posting systems on these boards. Luckily, I had a version of it on some of my own boards, so I'll post it. I think it's pretty up-to-date. Here we go: Parry If attacked by a melee weapon (including natural attacks), you may expend an Attack of Opportunity to attempt to Parry the blow. You must declare the parry attempt after the enemy makes the attack roll and before the enemy rolls damage. To perform a Parry, make an attack roll. If your attack roll result is greater than the enemy's attack roll, then the attack is foiled. You cannot parry with an unarmed attack unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike. You may only parry weapons up to one size larger than your own. Natural weapons are considered one size smaller than the creature that uses them. Successful parries do not prevent opponents from making additional attacks (from full attacks, two-weapon fighting, etc). You cannot parry in heavy armor or while carrying a heavy load, or when denied your Dexterity bonus to your Armor Class. If an enemy makes a successful Feint against you, then you cannot make any Parry attempts until after that opponent's next turn (when the effects of the Feint wear off). You cannot parry a Charge, Bull-Rush, Sunder, Trip, or Grab. The following feats are added to the game (all are Fighter bonus feats): Parry Focus Requirements: BAB +1 You gain a +1 on all Parry attempts. Master Fencer Requirements: Parry Focus, BAB +5 You gain a +3 on Parry attempts when using a light weapon or a rapier. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Parry Focus. Armored Fencer Requirements: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Parry Focus You may parry while wearing heavy armor (but not while carrying a heavy load). Protective Parry Requirements: Combat Expertise, Parry Focus You may make a Parry attempt against an attack made at an adjacent ally. Pierce Defenses Requirements: BAB +5 Opponents receive a -4 penalty to attack rolls when attempting to parry your attacks. Two-Weapon Parry Requirements: Two-Weapon Defense When wielding two weapons, you gain one additional Parry per round. This extra Parry must be used after all of your normal Attacks of Opportunity are exhausted. Swashbucklers receive Parry Focus as a bonus feat at level 4 and Master Fencer as a bonus feat at level 9. If the Swashbuckler already has Parry Focus at level 4, he instead gains Combat Expertise. If the Swashbuckler already has Master Fencer at level 9, he gains Protective Parry. If the Swashbuckler already had Combat Expertise or Protective Parry as well, then he gains no bonus feat.
darkneolink 04-24-07, 04:16 PM	and besides parry is included in the way you describe damage I mean everyone has heard or read "you take 6 points of damage" or "he attacks you and he misses" I mean wow (yaaaaaaaawwwwwwwn) But if its described "The goblin attacks you with his shortsword, you parry his attack and manages to avoid it hitting you, but still the attacks makes you a cut on your shoulder" then "you take 1 hp of damage" n_n
Vharuck 04-24-07, 04:19 PM	I'd say not allow the player to choose after the attack roll is finalized and the outcome is determined (as there is precedent elsewhere, especially luck feats, where they're balanced by requiring the player to be blind as to the possible outcome). Just say that, once an opponent attacks but before the opponent rolls for attack, the parry must be declared.
Frag 04-24-07, 04:20 PM	Personally, I think what you are trying to accomplish is already contemplated with the combat expertise feat and the fighting defensively rules. With that said, if you are going to do it this way, I would suggest making it a feat. Also, I don't like the idea that you don't lose anything if the attacker does not strike. In other words, if you are going to parry, I think you must parry every incoming attack in the round...as long as you have a sufficient number of your own attacks. Ho maybe I was not clear, the character doing the parry always lose the attack he sacrificed ... even if the opponent doesn't touch once.
Frag 04-24-07, 04:22 PM	I think it's a good mechanic that you could have fun with. I think I might limit it to parrying an attack from a melee weapon. I'm not sure about parrying natural attacks and weird attacks. - Bites - Claws - Wing attacks from a dragon? - Slam attacks from a Gelatinous Cube? - Touch attacks from an evil cleric casting "Inflict" spells? Personally for the above odd situations... I'd limit it to parrying an attacks made with a melee weapon. Yeah, it is the main reason why I posted here. I am not sure how to implant this while keeping it simple. But I like your idea about parrying only attack made with a melee weapon.
Frag 04-24-07, 04:27 PM	Trapspringer pointed out a few issues with this writeup. I was going to suggest the link in my sig, but it's been pruned. Le sigh. I've got to stop posting systems on these boards. Luckily, I had a version of it on some of my own boards, so I'll post it. I think it's pretty up-to-date. Here we go: Parry If attacked by a melee weapon (including natural attacks), you may expend an Attack of Opportunity to attempt to Parry the blow. You must declare the parry attempt after the enemy makes the attack roll and before the enemy rolls damage. To perform a Parry, make an attack roll. If your attack roll result is greater than the enemy's attack roll, then the attack is foiled. You cannot parry with an unarmed attack unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike. You may only parry weapons up to one size larger than your own. Natural weapons are considered one size smaller than the creature that uses them. Successful parries do not prevent opponents from making additional attacks (from full attacks, two-weapon fighting, etc). You cannot parry in heavy armor or while carrying a heavy load, or when denied your Dexterity bonus to your Armor Class. If an enemy makes a successful Feint against you, then you cannot make any Parry attempts until after that opponent's next turn (when the effects of the Feint wear off). You cannot parry a Charge, Bull-Rush, Sunder, Trip, or Grab. The following feats are added to the game (all are Fighter bonus feats): Parry Focus Requirements: BAB +1 You gain a +1 on all Parry attempts. Master Fencer Requirements: Parry Focus, BAB +5 You gain a +3 on Parry attempts when using a light weapon or a rapier. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Parry Focus. Armored Fencer Requirements: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Parry Focus You may parry while wearing heavy armor (but not while carrying a heavy load). Protective Parry Requirements: Combat Expertise, Parry Focus You may make a Parry attempt against an attack made at an adjacent ally. Pierce Defenses Requirements: BAB +5 Opponents receive a -4 penalty to attack rolls when attempting to parry your attacks. Two-Weapon Parry Requirements: Two-Weapon Defense When wielding two weapons, you gain one additional Parry per round. This extra Parry must be used after all of your normal Attacks of Opportunity are exhausted. Swashbucklers receive Parry Focus as a bonus feat at level 4 and Master Fencer as a bonus feat at level 9. If the Swashbuckler already has Parry Focus at level 4, he instead gains Combat Expertise. If the Swashbuckler already has Master Fencer at level 9, he gains Protective Parry. If the Swashbuckler already had Combat Expertise or Protective Parry as well, then he gains no bonus feat. Ho this is quite strong Solik! I like the way to describe it!
Solik 04-24-07, 04:31 PM	Thank you :) Hope it helps in your quest to craft your own Parry system.
Nom 04-25-07, 09:16 AM	You cannot parry in heavy armor or while carrying a heavy loadEh? Why? Also, you talk about parrying with weapons. The ultimate parrying "weapon" was the shield, which is notably absent.
Senevri 04-25-07, 09:22 AM	Type of action? Can my mage now try and auto-avoid melee damage from three blows a turn? (2 twf, 1 haste, for an example.) The Rog/Fighter line isn't that bad- Melee rogues should always be TWF, and most fighters go THW, or sword&board. I suggest you limit this to 1 hit / round, only usable with full attack, and make it, for an example, an opposed attack roll. Being able to parry a Bull Rush doesn't make sense to me... OTOH, in Exalted, you can parry the Vengeful Gaze of God, if you like, and that's always worked for me, so pot, kettle...
Solik 04-25-07, 10:44 AM	Eh? Why? There's footwork involved with parrying, usually, and such abilities frequently have armor restrictions. I didn't want to include medium armor, though, because medium armor always gets the shaft. Balance mostly, I suppose. The ultimate parrying "weapon" was the shield, which is notably absent. Shields (other than bucklers) have entries in the weapon tables.
Frag 04-25-07, 12:34 PM	There's footwork involved with parrying, usually, and such abilities frequently have armor restrictions. I didn't want to include medium armor, though, because medium armor always gets the shaft. Balance mostly, I suppose. Shields (other than bucklers) have entries in the weapon tables. Solik, I wondered the same thing. I really like your rule, but I will remove the "heavy armor" thing. A parry is not necessarily moving to avoid blow, but hitting your opponent weapon with yours. A warrior wearing a full plate can be very skillfull with his weapon ... But this is just my point of view. I am not judging at all, the feat is very well done.
Solik 04-25-07, 02:08 PM	Oh, I'm sure it makes perfect sense for heavy armor wearers to be able to parry. My prime motivator was balance, given the high ACs of heavy armor users and the comparative weakness of medium armor. Best of luck with your implementation :)
IllyannaFarseer 04-25-07, 04:46 PM	There are many systems out there in the world that are more realistic than DND. HERO is one system. It has VERY detailed combat...and takes a LONG time to fight a battle. that is the one thing about DnD that is nice. Its a fast system. When you start adding in opposed rolls you add time to your game. It is assumed that you take a 10 on your defense roll that is your AC. 10+dex+armor+etc... You can however roll for it...more time. I wouldn't try adding to the DnD system otherwise you start loosing the whole flavor and speed that is the dnd system. Hero doesn't have HPs. They have Endurance and Health. You can take a lot of endurance damage but once you start loosing health you are in trouble. Just like in real life. There is also hit locations and armor for each location so you can have a heavily armored torso and head, but only leather or cloth on the arms, so any torso hit has difficulty penetrating all the plate and chain, whereas a hit on the arm, cuts easily...things like that. So basically my point is this. The more you add, the slower the game gets, and DnD doesn't really need anything else, its a streamlined well balanced system. If you want more 'real' fighting etc..there are other systems out there...but then it won't be DnD... :D
Stormbrand 04-25-07, 05:21 PM	Hi guys, We are currently brainstorming a parry rule to make combat more entertaining and less “the first one who will run out of hit point die.” What do you guys are thinking about this. I personally think that it could diversify combats a lot depending of what you are facing. So help me refine this rule … I surely forgot about something. Parry Rule: A character can sacrifice one or more attacks to try to parry opponent melee attacks. At the beginning of the round, the character says that it is his intention and chooses which of his own attack he will sacrifice. He can choose to sacrifice as much attack as he wants too. When an opponent attacks the character, the character can try to parry the attacks that would have touched otherwise. In that case, the character rolls a d20 + all attack bonuses (same bonus as the attack he sacrificed) . If he rolls higher or equal than the attack roll coming from the opponents, he parried the attack. The character must say right after the opponent touches that he wants to try to parry the attack. He cannot wait until all attacks are done to decide which one he wants to parry. Any kind of melee attack can be parried; including special attacks like grapple, bull rush and trip. If the opponent does not touch at all and the character didn’t have to parry, his attack(s) are lost anyway. A natural 20 cannot be parried. Example: Eddy is a fighter Level 6, he has two attacks (base attack +6 and +1) and he has a strength score of 16 (+3 bonus). So his melee attacks bonuses are +9 and +4. Eddy has an AC of 15. Eddy, while walking in the forest, cross the path of a wolf. The wolf has three attacks (Claw+3/Claw+3/Bite+5). The Wolf has an AC of 13. Combat begin - Initiative is rolled - Wolf->18 and Eddy-> 10 - The Wolf will attack first. - Eddy says that he will use his second attack to parry. - The Wolf attack, .1st First claw miss (roll 3+3 = 6) .2nd Second claw touches! (Roll 16+3 = 19) [Eddy choose to try to parry and roll a 18+4=22 (this is the bonus of his second attack)] so the wolf claw is parried (22>=19) .3rd Bite Touches! (Roll 19+5 = 24) and Eddy cannot parry anymore since he sacrificed only one attack and suffer 7 hit points of damage. - Eddy attacks, but since he sacrificed his second attack to parry, he only has one attack left. . First attack touches (roll 18+ 9) and the wolf suffers 11 hit points of damage. The wolf dies. Nah, 'cuz this means a rogue will never hit a fighter. A rogue vs fighter should be fairly one-sided. I think it's a good mechanic that you could have fun with. I think I might limit it to parrying an attack from a melee weapon. I'm not sure about parrying natural attacks and weird attacks. - Bites - Claws - Wing attacks from a dragon? - Slam attacks from a Gelatinous Cube? - Touch attacks from an evil cleric casting "Inflict" spells? Personally for the above odd situations... I'd limit it to parrying an attack made with a melee weapon. Perhaps apply a parrying minus depending upon the size difference of the weapons. Limb attacks use the size of the attacker. Personally, I would give a bonus against natural weapons - assuming no fairness in the contest between teeth/fingernails versus sword. Also, you talk about parrying with weapons. The ultimate parrying "weapon" was the shield, which is notably absent. Certainly, give a parry bonue = twice AC bonus. Heavy shields count as 'large' (forcing a penalty on smaller weapons). There's footwork involved with parrying, usually, and such abilities frequently have armor restrictions. I didn't want to include medium armor, though, because medium armor always gets the shaft. Balance mostly, I suppose. Shields (other than bucklers) have entries in the weapon tables. Actually, if you know what you are doing in armour (armour proficiency), it can help you parry - because solid contact is needed against a weak point to breach the armour. So you can simply meet the blow early on the swing and the armour will take it. Conan D20 is an excellent source for parry/dodge rules.