Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tektonik 01-22-07, 02:06 AM	I was planning on running a campaign where none of the characters could ever choose a core base class. They would be restricted pretty much by the complete series and the two "tome of" series and I am trying to figure out if any void would be hard to fill. The only one I can think of is possibly healing or traps. I was looking for feedback on the general idea and wondering if anyone had done something similar in the past and any problems they had.
Salla 01-22-07, 02:19 AM	I was planning on running a campaign where none of the characters could ever choose a core base class. They would be restricted pretty much by the complete series and the two "tome of" series and I am trying to figure out if any void would be hard to fill. The only one I can think of is possibly healing or traps. I was looking for feedback on the general idea and wondering if anyone had done something similar in the past and any problems they had. I've considered running a 'No PHB Races or Classes' game myself a couple of times, mostly as a lark/one-shot rather than a full-blown campaign. As far as trapfinding goes, you have the Ninja, the Spellthief, and the Scout from Complete Adventurer, as well as the Beguiler from PHBII. As far as healing goes, you have the Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine (and technically the Shugenja, but BOY is that a weak one), as well as a bit of fast healing possible from the Dragon Shaman in PHBII. Shouldn't be a problem. ;)
Undrhil 01-22-07, 02:45 AM	And you can always use Potions for healing... as well as Wands, Rods and Staves. :)
Tyler Do'Urden 01-22-07, 02:48 AM	Are psionics core? If not, an egoist of 5th-level or higher can heal fairly effectively using vigor, empathic transfer, and body adjustment.
Yokomohoyo 01-22-07, 03:00 AM	Are psionics core? Nope their not... But again I would strongly suggest not banning core... Why limit your players gamming probibilities?
Yokomohoyo 01-22-07, 03:03 AM	DBL post sorry
Derren S. 01-22-07, 03:14 AM	With psionics you could build a fully working group with non core classes. Tank: Knight Healer: Favored Soul Skills/Traps: Ninja/Scout "Arcane" Spellcaster: Psion
ressurrector 01-22-07, 03:17 AM	Artificier Traps+more like a 1/2rogue 1/2wizard 1/2McGyver
Sphyre 01-22-07, 04:00 AM	Nope their not... But again I would strongly suggest not banning core... Why limit your players gamming probibilities? I think, if your players aren't adamant against it, it would and could be a very interesting twist. Oh yeah, and for trapfinding, you the favored soul can also do it with the cleric spell "Find traps." You can fill every void with a non-core class. They all have a lot of overlap. That's why there's room to play a ninja instead of a rogue - because your party still will probably want a sneak, even if it's not a rogue. This is a roleplaying game. The traditional roles should most of the time (there are exceptions) still be filled.
Ace_of_Diamonds 01-22-07, 04:22 AM	No player playing a race or class from the PHB? Sounds like a fairly normal campaign to me.
CroBob 01-22-07, 04:26 AM	Frankly, I dislike non-core base classes. I don't limit my players playing them, I simply have a distaste for them. They seem overkill. Anything you could do with one, it seems you could probably find or design a prestige class that does it better with prerequisites the core classes can meet. Basically, it's useless complications. Fun for flavor, but the core classes, being core, simply ought to be the best and most common. It seems intuitive. But... they're not.
tsuyoshikentsu 01-22-07, 05:00 AM	Fun for flavor, but the core classes, being core, simply ought to be the best and most common. It seems intuitive. But... they're not. Well, there's a good reason for that. Those classes were designed sevenish years ago, and haven't seen a revision in four. Meanwhile, new things are being released when the developers can go back and look at what they should have done. On topic: I like this idea. You'll actually have a more balanced party this way; ToB melee classes are a lot closer to casters in terms of power. Plus, if a Warlock is your arcanist, you've got a good deal of the party not worrying about rest.
Sphyre 01-22-07, 05:01 AM	No player playing a race or class from the PHB? Sounds like a fairly normal campaign to me. Hehe :D Frankly, I dislike non-core base classes. I don't limit my players playing them, I simply have a distaste for them. They seem overkill. Anything you could do with one, it seems you could probably find or design a prestige class that does it better with prerequisites the core classes can meet. Basically, it's useless complications. Fun for flavor, but the core classes, being core, simply ought to be the best and most common. It seems intuitive. But... they're not. I think you're treating core as a sacred cow. Not that I disagree, that's a very valid opinion, if you like core, you like core. But there's very little economic/marketable reason for WotC to release sub-par classes in their supplements and make core king. It's for options. One thing new core classes allow you to do that Prestige classes don't allow is a flavor/concept played from level 1. Many people wanted to play a 'gish' in the past. Not until the duskblade could you truely play one from level 1. It's subpar compared to PrCing at higher levels, but it's fun none-the-less. Not to mention... how do you play a favored soul (spontanous clerical casting) if it's a PrC for a cleric? Seems kind of like a clunky mechanic to say "ok, now you lose access some spells, but you can cast spontaneously now."
Pandaemoni 01-22-07, 07:21 AM	The problem with using a Favored Soul as healer is that they not optimized to fill that role. They only work is you have a player who is happy being little more than a heal dispenser, because many of his precious "spells known" will be tied up with Cure Spells, Restorations and the like. Clerics make such excellent healers because of spontaneous casting and because they get access to those cure spells, neutralize poison, remove disease and the like without limiting their other options. If you have a player who's happy to be a "support" character, that's great, but my players shy away from clerics as it is because they hate playing that role. The pain of being a support provider is just so much greater when the cures are coming from a spell-list-limited Favored Soul. You might alter the Favored Soul to give them Cure Spells on top of their normal spells known (and, presumably, taking away some of their other class abilities as an offset).
Sphyre 01-22-07, 07:47 AM	The problem with using a Favored Soul as healer is that they not optimized to fill that role. They only work is you have a player who is happy being little more than a heal dispenser, because many of his precious "spells known" will be tied up with Cure Spells, Restorations and the like. I disagree for many reasons. You have a huge spells known list. Compare to the sorcerer. Strictly way more. You can have your offensive and defensive spells. In addition to the last point, 50% more spells per day = more slots to cast those healing and buff/offensive spells. You're spontaneous anyway, if you really want to take only one or two healing spells, use metamagic feats. You're spontaneous. You're not restricted to only casting cure spells spontaneously. Not to mention Evil clerics or Neutral clerics who spontaneously inflict. You're spontaneous. You can spontaneously cast other healing spells too, like Close wounds. I made a Favored soul with this and Augment healing, and she rarely ever had to cast a healing spell other than it because she had so many spells per day to cast this in addition to anything else she's doing. 4th level you swap out spells. You can swap out your cure light wounds for lesser vigor and use that as an out of combat heal, while you always upgrade/lose your lowest cure spell for the best for in combat. If you really want to, you can use your cure light wounds wand for healing out of combat, and not spell slots, while only have a few cure spells for combat. The Favored Soul's biggest drawback when compared to the cleric is that they don't have turning, not that they can't fill the Cleric role as a bandaid when needed. Turning is not good at low levels against undead, but useful for divine feats that the Favored soul doesn't have access to. Favored souls can fill that role quite well. It by no means replaces the cleric, but has it's own unique advantages and disadvantages.
Pandaemoni 01-22-07, 07:56 AM	I disagree for many reasons. You have a huge spells known list. Compare to the sorcerer. Strictly way more. You can have your offensive and defensive spells. In addition to the last point, 50% more spells per day = more slots to cast those healing and buff/offensive spells. You're spontaneous anyway, if you really want to take only one or two healing spells, use metamagic feats. You're spontaneous. You're not restricted to only casting cure spells spontaneously. Not to mention Evil clerics or Neutral clerics who spontaneously inflict. You're spontaneous. You can spontaneously cast other healing spells too, like Close wounds. I made a Favored soul with this and Augment healing, and she rarely ever had to cast a healing spell other than it because she had so many spells per day to cast this in addition to anything else she's doing. 4th level you swap out spells. You can swap out your cure light wounds for lesser vigor and use that as an out of combat heal, while you always upgrade/lose your lowest cure spell for the best for in combat. If you really want to, you can use your cure light wounds wand for healing out of combat, and not spell slots, while only have a few cure spells for combat. The Favored Soul's biggest drawback when compared to the cleric is that they don't have turning, not that they can't fill the Cleric role as a bandaid when needed. Turning is not good at low levels against undead, but useful for divine feats that the Favored soul doesn't have access to. Favored souls can fill that role quite well. It by no means replaces the cleric, but has it's own unique advantages and disadvantages. I would still call "Not it" when the DM announced that someone had to play a Favored Soul healbot. :D
Sphyre 01-22-07, 09:07 AM	Well it seems that you have an aversion to the cleric in the first place, so I completely beleive you would do that :D
Arganis 01-22-07, 10:04 AM	No player playing a race or class from the PHB? Sounds like a fairly normal campaign to me. :rimshot:
starfire311 01-22-07, 10:13 AM	With psionics you could build a fully working group with non core classes. Tank: Knight Healer: Favored Soul Skills/Traps: Ninja/Scout "Arcane" Spellcaster: Psion With PHB 2 you can build a solid group Knight, Beguiler, Duskblade, Dragon Shaman, can cover it all. My favorite group, adn we did this once was Crusader, Dragon Shaman, Divine Mind, Marshal, Beguiler
Edymnion 01-22-07, 10:39 AM	No player playing a race or class from the PHB? Sounds like a fairly normal campaign to me.Sounds like munchkin hell to me... Wait, let me clarify that, hell to me, heaven to the munchkins.
Cainin 01-22-07, 10:55 AM	I was planning on running a campaign where none of the characters could ever choose a core base class. They would be restricted pretty much by the complete series and the two "tome of" series and I am trying to figure out if any void would be hard to fill. The only one I can think of is possibly healing or traps. I was looking for feedback on the general idea and wondering if anyone had done something similar in the past and any problems they had. Base Class Compilation (39 PC Classes, 5 NPC Classes) PH II – Beguiler, Duskblade, Dragon Totemist, Knight Miniatures – Healer, Marshal Eberron – Artificer Dragon Magic - Dragonfire Adept Expanded Psionics – Psion, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Wilder Magic of Incarnum – Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist Tome of Magic – Binder, Shadowcaster, Truenamer Tome of Battle - Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade Heroes of Horror – Dark Archivist, Dread Necromancer Complete Adventurer – Ninja, Scout, Spell Thief Complete Arcane – Warlock, Warmage, Wu Jen Complete Divine – Favored Soul, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman Complete Psionic – Ardent, Divine Mind, Erudite, Lurk Complete Warrior – Hexblade, Samurai, Swashbuckler (NPC) DMG I – Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Warrior (NPC) Eberron - Magewright <Edit: I added in Dragonfire Adept. DM wasn't out when I made the list.> Yes, I ran my last campaign and told everyone up front that I would ban all PH I base classes as an experiment. (Unearthed Arcana base classes were also banned.) The above list is what I had compiled using WOTC only sources. (Dragonlance wasn't included since it's now published by Sovereign Stone.) Though I made everyone's brains bleed as I had to change the favored classes of the various races and had to create my NPCs by the same restrictions, it actually worked pretty dang well. The players were able to cover all of the bases and still have a lot of room for creativity. I would honestly liked to try this again in the future.
Tektonik 01-22-07, 11:04 AM	Base Class Compilation (38 PC Classes, 5 NPC Classes) PH II – Beguiler, Duskblade, Dragon Totemist, Knight Miniatures – Healer, Marshal Eberron – Artificer Expanded Psionics – Psion, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Wilder Magic of Incarnum – Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist Tome of Magic – Binder, Shadowcaster, Truenamer Tome of Battle - Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade Heroes of Horror – Dark Archivist, Dread Necromancer Complete Adventurer – Ninja, Scout, Spell Thief Complete Arcane – Warlock, Warmage, Wu Jen Complete Divine – Favored Soul, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman Complete Psionic – Ardent, Divine Mind, Erudite, Lurk Complete Warrior – Hexblade, Samurai, Swashbuckler (NPC) DMG I – Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Warrior (NPC) Eberron - Magewright Yes, I ran my last campaign and told everyone up front that I would ban all PH I base classes as an experiment. (Unearthed Arcana base classes were also banned.) The above list is what I had compiled using WOTC only sources. (Dragonlance wasn't included since it's now published by Sovereign Stone.) Though I made everyone's brains bleed as I had to change the favored classes of the various races and had to create my NPCs by the same restrictions, it actually worked pretty dang well. The players were able to cover all of the bases and still have a lot of room for creativity. I would honestly liked to try this again in the future. Thats why I want to do it it would help with creativity. I guess healing would be an issue but with Truenamer, Artificer, Warlock, Spellthief, plus some others I could have them find wands and potions to fill that gap. Could I ask what you changed the races favored class to be?
Cainin 01-22-07, 12:42 PM	Could I ask what you changed the races favored class to be? (Disclaimer: The favored classes were designed before Tome of Battle came out, so they haven't been included. I also based them on the campaign world's influence, the old Image comic line of Warlands, so it left some odd choices for some of the races.) Favored Classes Since all of the favored classes of the PH I classes have been banned, I have changed their favored classes accordingly. Please note that while there have been two different choices listed, only one may be chosen at character creation. Dwarf – Knight (PH II) or Soulborn (Magic of Incarnum) Elf – Duskblade (PH II) or Wu Jen (Complete Arcane) Gnome – Artificer (Eberron) or Beguiler (PH II) Half-Elf – Any (as per PHI) Half-Orc – Binder (Tome of Magic) or Totemist (Magic of Incarnum) Halfling – Lurk (Complete Psionic) or Scout (Complete Adventurer) Human – Any (as per PH I) (I again copied & pasted from by original campaign guideline document. Let me know if you have any further questions. Best of luck to any crazy enough to try a non-Core campaign.)
danielinthewolvesden 01-22-07, 01:31 PM	I think, if your players aren't adamant against it, it would and could be a very interesting twist. Oh yeah, and for trapfinding, you the favored soul can also do it with the cleric spell "Find traps." . Not really. Not enough Skill Points and those skils are not Class skills, so he will not find much and when he does he cannot do anything about it. A FS is fine as a Healer- he only has to devote one spell/level to healing and that still gives him lots of spells. A Dragon Shaman can do some nice healing too, and there is the Crusader and the Spirit Shaman, not to mention the Healer.
Gwenfloor 01-22-07, 01:38 PM	Base Class Compilation (38 PC Classes, 5 NPC Classes) PH II – Beguiler, Duskblade, Dragon Totemist, Knight Miniatures – Healer, Marshal Eberron – Artificer Expanded Psionics – Psion, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Wilder Magic of Incarnum – Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist Tome of Magic – Binder, Shadowcaster, Truenamer Tome of Battle - Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade Heroes of Horror – Dark Archivist, Dread Necromancer Complete Adventurer – Ninja, Scout, Spell Thief Complete Arcane – Warlock, Warmage, Wu Jen Complete Divine – Favored Soul, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman Complete Psionic – Ardent, Divine Mind, Erudite, Lurk Complete Warrior – Hexblade, Samurai, Swashbuckler (NPC) DMG I – Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Warrior (NPC) Eberron - Magewright Yes, I ran my last campaign and told everyone up front that I would ban all PH I base classes as an experiment. (Unearthed Arcana base classes were also banned.) The above list is what I had compiled using WOTC only sources. (Dragonlance wasn't included since it's now published by Sovereign Stone.) Though I made everyone's brains bleed as I had to change the favored classes of the various races and had to create my NPCs by the same restrictions, it actually worked pretty dang well. The players were able to cover all of the bases and still have a lot of room for creativity. I would honestly liked to try this again in the future. You forgot the NPC class Expert!
Cainin 01-22-07, 01:42 PM	I almost forgot the Dragonfire Adept. The supplement Dragon Magic wasn't out when I made that old list. I edited my original class list post to include the DA class. Guess it's up to 39 PC & 5 NPC classes.
Sphyre 01-22-07, 02:29 PM	Not really. Not enough Skill Points and those skils are not Class skills, so he will not find much and when he does he cannot do anything about it. What about the bonus to your search checks of half your level? Not to mention items that give pluses to skills are rediculously cheap. (Bonus^2*100) If it's a magic trap, you can dispel magic it, to suppress it. Mundane is a bit tougher, but there are still ways. For one, you can just take the stupid damage and heal it up. If it's poison, you can delay poison or Neutralize poison. Or you can simply put at least 2 skill points cross class into Disable Device, and then use Divine Insight and another bonus skill item to Disable it. You can use search untrained. Spells and magic items do everything. It's a bigger problem earlier game. There are better options, but that doesn't mean that this isn't one.
JulesCARV 01-22-07, 02:36 PM	Munchkin hell party: healer, soulknife, spellthief, and warmage.
pukunui 01-22-07, 03:23 PM	Base Class Compilation (39 PC Classes, 5 NPC Classes) PH II – Beguiler, Duskblade, Dragon Shaman, Knight Fixed.
Tektonik 01-22-07, 04:53 PM	Munchkin hell party: healer, soulknife, spellthief, and warmage. Thats hardly the best. As far as traps there is always someone in my group who is paranoid about finding everything so I can count on him to have that. It might not be a bad thing for one player to find the traps and try and guide another to find it and disable it could encourage more team play, or Beguiler looks like it could handle the face and traps part of the party easily. I am thinking that if one of them goes Warlock or Crusader that picking up leadership for a healer cohort. Also Warlock, Beguiler, Spellthief, Truenamer all get UMD so wands could help.
Sir_Wolfgar 01-22-07, 05:32 PM	I have thought about doing a similar idea, but there is one problem with it. How are you going to incorporate all of these different classes together? You've got distinctly asian classes mixed with european-pagan themed classes, and psionics. Plus, you have about 10 different magic styles to choose from. You could find yourself facing a rules headache, not to mention the pain involved with organizing a campaign around this major clash of cultural classes. Ture, you get around it with a major cosmopolitan center in you campaign, but that wouldn't be enough explaination IMHO.
ressurrector 01-22-07, 05:34 PM	I would still call "Not it" when the DM announced that someone had to play a Favored Soul healbot. :D I dunno, I've allways wanted to play a favored soul with Faith healing as his level 1 heal spell. You want healing? PRAY TO MY GOD!
Tektonik 01-22-07, 06:44 PM	I have thought about doing a similar idea, but there is one problem with it. How are you going to incorporate all of these different classes together? You've got distinctly asian classes mixed with european-pagan themed classes, and psionics. Plus, you have about 10 different magic styles to choose from. You could find yourself facing a rules headache, not to mention the pain involved with organizing a campaign around this major clash of cultural classes. Ture, you get around it with a major cosmopolitan center in you campaign, but that wouldn't be enough explaination IMHO. That may be a bit closed minded. Stuff like samurai does not have to be Asian themed. It is a way of life; I mean the Last Samurai was a white man :P. Just like a katana is just a bastard sword. The different spell casters are not a problem at all. Wu Jen are hermits those can be anywhere. Binders and Warlocks have lore that deal with demons just like a sect of conjurers can. Ninjas don't have to be called ninjas, samurai don't have to be called samurai if you can't get past the name. I assure you that a bard working for a royal court probably does not call himself a bard but probably a jester. When you get down to it what would you call a Fighter2/Rouge3/Swashbuckler 5?
Sphyre 01-23-07, 01:17 AM	Munchkin hell party: healer, soulknife, spellthief, and warmage. :uh-huh: You want a 'munchkin' party? Go 1 pure wizard, a beguiler gish, a cleric and a druid. While it doesn't fit the restrictions of a no-core class campaign, it has so much more power than your suggested party. Munchkins are people who break the rules not people who simply play classes. Healers aren't seen as good as clerics, soulknives are seens as underpowered. I've never even heard of anyone playing a spelltheif, and warmage is subpar for a magic-user because blasting, many times, can be a poor choice of an arcane caster.
ressurrector 01-23-07, 02:03 AM	That's more like a wanna-be munchkin campaign, done with those who have no idea how to optimize.
JulesCARV 01-23-07, 02:05 AM	Err... my point was, that would be a campaign that was hell for munchkins.
Sphyre 01-23-07, 02:11 AM	Err... my point was, that would be a campaign that was hell for munchkins. oooooh. LOL Yeah. Although, I could see the soulknife munchkin cheating by applying psychic strike on every attack. Otherwise if they go by the rules, people who are used to high power won't have much to work with.
EyeontheMountain 01-23-07, 02:16 AM	Well, doing a non-core class game is very very easy, as most posters above have noted. However, it seems that getting into prestige classes will be quite a bit ahrder. No non-core arcanist can get into Archmage, for example (Thought I would have to check beguiler out more carefully.) That could change the dynamics a lot, especially if your players are addicted to certain prestige classes.
ressurrector 01-23-07, 02:40 AM	No non-core arcanist can get into Archmage, for example (Thought I would have to check beguiler out more carefully.) What about Wu Jen? They have access to various schools and the same spell progression as Wizards.