| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| shadowfox62808-08-05, 03:13 AM | After he got curious, I showed him a recent, um... "controversial" topic, which, from my point of view, was grossly misunderstood. Here's his actual words that he sent my on AIM: "i just wanna tell these (censored) to get their thumb out of their a** and their nose out of the DM's guide and let your creative side run lose. this game isn't complex or a thinking game. it's just fun. and one Dm's idea of greatness is another's idea of foolishness. so either keep your negative comments to yourself or stop posting." -Gray Fox- (Seriously, I asked him if I should put his AIM s/n, but he just said "put my alias: Gray Fox.") Seriously, he makes a point. My Brother: "Half the game is you messing with the DM." I believe that true. You want to exploit the DM for your needs, mess him up, drive him crazy, but there's also this. Me: "The other half of the game is you (the DM) messing with the PC's." Look, every time I've posted my idea and asked for an opinion, all I've gotten is "read the DMG," or "if I were the PC I would leave," or something like that. In fact, he said he LIKED being messed with. I killed his character, I made him fight a LEvel 30 NPC, does he complain? NO! Have any of the other PC's complained? NO! Why? Because they know it's neccissary! Maybe you don't understand what it's like to be a video game-inspired DM. I come up with my ideas mostly on the fly! I have to improvise! Barely ANYTHING goes my way! I probibly have to put up with more than you. I've read the PHB and the DMG. I can't re-read both of them! You want to know why? Because I used the rules I liked! The ones I thought were neccissary! I don't play by every rule in the book! I have house rules... Hey, I made up the house rule of reloading crossbows before I found out the real rule, and both were the same! Look, I'm probibly going to have to put up with more "abuse," (notice the quotes) but it's worth it. I don't know why I keep coming to you people for this. Sure, I like to read and comment, but, still, my PC's give me non-biased opinions. Not "refer to this rule," or "well, actually..." NONE OF THAT! My PC's have messed with me as many times as I've messed with them. I plan one way to kidnap the honorary Pc, they make my plan fail. So, I come up with another idea, and it works. They used magic? No problem. I put up an anti-magic field. The fact is, none of you seem to listen. I don't railroad seriously. Sure, I give them the push off the emergency exit in the back of a school bus, but I won't tie them to a train and won't give them choices. I give them freedom. You don't seem to notice that the PC isn't killing a baby. You don't notice that the PC's will have means of killing the seemingly invincible NPC. I know when too much is too much. You don't seem to think that I know. ... You underestimete the PC's. The ones I play with are reasonable. They understand that if I kill their character, it's for a good reason or for their stupidity. Their actions do have conciquences. You don't understand the mind of a PC, while PC's don't understand the mind of a DM. Only when a person is both a DM and a PC about equally does one know why things happen, why they're the way the DM says, why the PC does whatever action... "*note* this is only to the people giving off verble insults, not to the good people out there with good comments" -in responce to my recent topic "Good or Not So Good?"- |
| Gedrin08-08-05, 03:55 AM | :blink: Here's the thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=470876&page=1) |
| shadowfox62808-08-05, 03:59 AM | Actually, I still have that thread bookmarked..... I should delete it. |
| Lord Ian Stark08-08-05, 04:09 AM | So you're mad that when you asked a question you received a variety of answers and would only like to hear answers that go with your train of thought. My friend, *takes a step back and points of into the distance* welcome to the Internet. :D PS. If you are not going by the RAW on something then you should post that in your initial post so the locals here who respond to threads by using the RAW know you're not following them. Because 9 out of 10 times we're going to help DM's do things within the rules of the game. |
| weasel fierce08-08-05, 04:55 AM | Its your game. Do with it as you want. You dont need other peoples validation |
| Snake8708-08-05, 06:03 AM | Its your game. Do with it as you want. You dont need other peoples validation Exactly, your the DM, what you say goes. Even if you say a Fighter can magically cast Cure Moderate Wounds 3 times a day, thats your call. For every rule to remove for your PC's to make them more interesting is more things that can make the game more complicated. Thats kind of like an oxymoron, haha. |
| Traevanon08-08-05, 07:47 AM | The OP has let this forum get under their skin. Please take a step back and realize that you are free to ignore anything said here, including this. For the record, since I missed the original post: Holding someone hostage, putting the hero in a deathtrap or trying to force the hero to go against their morals is not railroading provided they can make the right choice and still eventually come out on top. In the situation you described in the previous thread the right choice is for the hero to refuse to harm the innocent, as harming the innocent would definately be evil, but be ready to intercede if the villain does. There is no need, the moment a pair of bad choices present themselves, to throw out all hope of winning. Obviously the villain is bargaining for something, and finding out what it is should be the first thing you do. Throwing away the hero's paladinhood, or his life, may be neccessary but this is not clear immediately. Usually this situation only arises out of the desperation of the villain or if for some reason the villain cannot kill the innocent themselves (i.e. if for some reason Quasi-dieties cannot take mortal life or if they are Lawful Evil and have promised someone else that they would not kill the innocent). I'd go with a Sense Motive check, combined with a Readied Action to disarm or sunder if I had to deal with this myself. In cinema this is the moment when the camera zooms in on the hard eyes of the hero, then over to the shaky, sweating face of the villain. So, if the villain is desperate, do whatever it takes to get the villain to let the innocent go, then pursue them. If the villain cannot, for some reason kill the innocent, then the hero has bargaining room. As soon as the hostage is free, the hero goes after the main plot. Walking out of the game or getting angry (ooc) at the presentation of the situation would be premature. Paladins sometimes are presented with hard choices and must live with the difficult journey through life they have chosen. Welcome to the reopening of the canoworms. :D |
| Vexsom08-08-05, 07:58 AM | Vexsom (yes, in third person) always attempts to give answers instead of books. To spite when I turn out wrong -mumbles about magical weapons- I often give suprisingly smart answers on occasion. Feel free to IM me if in any instance I can assist (seeing as how you obvious have AIM... and I'm on a 'no sleep' spree) |
| gleep08-08-05, 10:52 AM | One thing you should understand about that previous thread: Most people that read it took it to be yet another screw with the paladweeb thread. There's generally 1-3 of those threads here a week, and I assure you that after a few months they get pretty darn tiring to deal with. It doesn't matter what you were thinking about as you wrote the post; what matters is what the readers thought as they read it. Now, understanding that this was thought to be yet another screw with the paladin thread, you may notice that most of the replies you took to be derogatory were in defence of your players. They were attempting to inform you, the DM, that there were issues with your tactics and you might want to reconsider them. They had no idea your players enjoy a more confrontational style of play (that your group likes being "messed with" and give as good as they get). Quite frankly, the biggest problem with the thread wasn't what you were saying as much as your inability to communicate your thoughts to the audience effectively. The evidence is in the confusion (to put it politely) that was generated throughout the entire thread. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. And I'll stick with my own comment in the original thread. :D --gleep |
| Cymraegmorgan08-08-05, 11:04 AM | Seriously, he makes a point. My Brother: "Half the game is you messing with the DM." I believe that true. You want to exploit the DM for your needs, mess him up, drive him crazy, but there's also this. Me: "The other half of the game is you (the DM) messing with the PC's." This is the source of your problem. Most of us DM or play for the fun and the social interaction, not to mess up each other or to drive each other crazy. I probibly have to put up with more than you. I've read the PHB and the DMG. I can't re-read both of them! :confused: Why not? If you post here asking advice on D&D, and you are unfamiliar with the rules, then "read the rules" is the best advise anyone can give you. You will find that serious DMs cannot count the number of times that they have read the Core Rulebooks. I don't know why I keep coming to you people for this. Neither do I. If your players are happy with your "style", then why are you trying to convince others? |
| chrisnd08-08-05, 11:35 AM | Look, I'm probibly going to have to put up with more "abuse," (notice the quotes) but it's worth it. I don't know why I keep coming to you people for this. Sure, I like to read and comment, but, still, my PC's give me non-biased opinions. Not "refer to this rule," or "well, actually..." NONE OF THAT! My PC's have messed with me as many times as I've messed with them. I plan one way to kidnap the honorary Pc, they make my plan fail. So, I come up with another idea, and it works. They used magic? No problem. I put up an anti-magic field. The fact is, none of you seem to listen. I don't railroad seriously. Sure, I give them the push off the emergency exit in the back of a school bus, but I won't tie them to a train and won't give them choices. I give them freedom. "*note* this is only to the people giving off verble insults, not to the good people out there with good comments" -in responce to my recent topic "Good or Not So Good?"- Okay, so I went back and read the original post about "good or bad". In fact, I originally ignored the entire post the first time because I saw it as a really bad case of DM'ing gone wrong. After having read all the responses, as well as FOX's replies and this new post 2 weeks later, I have to stick to my original assessment. This appears to be a very bad case of a new DM having a brilliant idea for a campaign and asking people for their opinion on it. Clearly, those DM's with a lot of experience (such as Gleep, or Lord Ian Stark) insist that the style of play related to the encounter described by Fox is just plain bad gaming. I agree. I too have been doing this (DM'ing) for a VERY LONG TIME. No way would I ever plan such an event to happen in my campaign. A few reasons: One, it doesn't make any sense. On a metagame level, putting a paladin in a particular situation in which he CANNOT WIN is just bad gaming. Forget the mechanics of it, forget the RAW. I personally think it is just bad gaming. Secondly, it seems rather odd that a villain would behave the way in which you have described in the original post. Now, as for the response of your PC's, I guess if they are willing to have the DM place the paladin in such a situation, and are willing to play it that way, then so be it. Personally, I just think it is really, really bad GAMING. Even outside the rules. And then there is the other issue. You wonder why you "keep coming to you people for this", and why you post questions here. This is of course a rhetorical question that you need not answer to anyone but yourself, but "Why do you come here and post such questions?" Of course, you realize, Fox, that doing that begs the question: "Why did you post the "good or bad" question in the first place?" At the end of the post that stopped back on 27 July 05, (the link that Gedrin so nicely supplied), someone mentioned the word "troll". Now, being the completely naive and innocent person that I am, I am going to assume that I do not know the meaning of that word on this forum (or any forum). However, I still have to wonder as to why you posted the original "good or bad" question in the first place. I should also mention that there were very few "verbal assaults" and a lot of "good comments" - especially from the people that you should take advice from with much aplomb - guys like Sir Ian and Gleep. You admitted that you were new to DM'ing, and that you wanted some advice. That is what you get here - advice. If you don't get the advice or justifications of your questions in the answers that are provided, then so be it. But I highly suggest that you not ask for advice, and then when you get it, you bite that hand that supplied it. Just my opinion, but I think that you and your PC's might be looking at this the wrong way. Regardless, play as you like, and if everyone has fun, I guess that is all that matters. However, no offense, but don't invite me to your next campaign - it would be wasted breath. |
| Thoronmir08-08-05, 01:50 PM | So, you’re a videogame-inspired DM whose players enjoy getting “messed with” and you deviate from the RAW as you see fit. I see no problem with that. The problem is that you don’t seem to be prefacing your threads with that information. How are we to know unless you tell us? The thread that inspired your self-pitying rant here asked for opinions about yet another Paladin’s “Hobson’s choice” … slay the innocent or allow hundreds to die. What measure are we to use if not the RAW? For that matter, if you and your players prefer the style of D&D you’ve described, why would anyone’s opinion affect your game? And you can tell your friend Gray Fox that adhering to the RAW need not inhibit creativity. I know plenty of players who believe that finding ways to accomplish what they want using the RAW is every bit as creative as ignoring the RAW and making ad hoc rulings. The RAW is merely a tool … the creativity lies in the hand of the artist using that tool. If you wonder why you receive such negative responses, the answer can be found in the style of game you and your friends apparently enjoy:My Brother: "Half the game is you messing with the DM." I believe that true. You want to exploit the DM for your needs, mess him up, drive him crazy, but there's also this. Me: "The other half of the game is you (the DM) messing with the PC's."This tells me all I need to know about you and your players. I wouldn’t tolerate this attitude from anyone at my table and I surely wouldn’t put up with any DM who held such beliefs. It’s not that I mind that you like to turn basketball into dodgeball, it’s just that I don’t want to play dodgeball. The answers to many questions on this board depend on what version of D&D you play. Someone who plays only 1st ed. isn’t going to find much help in answers predicated on 3.5 rules. The differences between 3.5 and 3.0 are enough to make some responses moot. My suggestion is that you post the quoted text into your sig so people reading your posts know what style of game you run and can adjust their responses accordingly. |
| Ut-Napishtim08-08-05, 02:30 PM | You know, when I first read this I thought I was in trouble. Then I went back and looked at the original thread - and it wasn't me! That's always nice. And you can tell your friend Gray Fox that adhering to the RAW need not inhibit creativity. I know plenty of players who believe that finding ways to accomplish what they want using the RAW is every bit as creative as ignoring the RAW and making ad hoc rulings. The RAW is merely a tool … the creativity lies in the hand of the artist using that tool. Yeah, that's pretty much my line of thinking. I don't know why players expect you to make up new races and classes for them when they can easily build what they want from the 14,562,101 possible combinations there already are if they just had the ganas to try. |
| imperialjunkie08-08-05, 03:18 PM | To shadowfox: I understand how you got your feelings hurt. I didn't read all 3 pages of the original thread, but there were a few terse responses to your query. But that's the nature of internet communication. Shucks, it's hard enough to get along with my wife face to face! How much harder is it to be nice to people who I've never met or seen? I encourage you to take the blows as they come and let them slide off. Afterall, we're a bunch of total strangers. I also want to kind of give you some advice about your motivations in asking questions here. Too often I see people ask for advice on a situation or ask for clarification about the rules, and then as the discussion pans out it is obvious that they are not looking for advice or clarification-- they just want justification for what they are going to do anyway. If that is the case, then don't waste your energy in posting. That appeared to be the case with your original thread. It seemed that you wanted the paladin's killing of the innocent to be OK, and anything that contradicted with this was frustrating to you. Granted, the tone of some of the posters probably added to the frustration. So if you have an idea that might be different and you just want to do it, then go for it. There is no need to ask about it. And finally, the RAW is how we all evaluate things here. Sharing a creative idea is fine (and using a cliched situation such as yours is not cliche if it is new to you-- don't feel too beat up about that. I thought it was fine). But if you want advice, then expect that advice to be based on the one thing that is common to us all here: the rules. For instance, my main question I had with your situation was why a group of PCs who could be affected by a sleep spell would be facing a quasi-deity? Based on the rules, that told me the PCs were first or second level. Based on the rules that is insane. But that is all based on the rules. And that is all I have to go on in giving you advice. Hope you don't leave. The boards here are useful and generally friendly. You just have to weather the occasional storm. |
| Kolo08-08-05, 03:25 PM | Everyone can say "my game is better than yours" and mean it with all his heart, me included. So, I want everyone to say with me; "My game is Better than Yours." Don't we all feel better now that we've done that and can move on to other topics? :) |
| chrisnd08-08-05, 03:52 PM | Everyone can say "my game is better than yours" and mean it with all his heart, me included. So, I want everyone to say with me; "My game is Better than Yours." Don't we all feel better now that we've done that and can move on to other topics? :) but my game is better that yours! PUNK! |
| Ut-Napishtim08-08-05, 03:57 PM | Dude, my game sucks. If it was perfect already what need would I have to waste hours hanging around here all the time? :ayyyy!: Actually... I don't even have a game ATM as I just moved. :weep: |
| Snake8708-08-05, 03:59 PM | Seriously, he makes a point. My Brother: "Half the game is you messing with the DM." I believe that true. You want to exploit the DM for your needs, mess him up, drive him crazy, but there's also this. Me: "The other half of the game is you (the DM) messing with the PC's." This is the source of your problem. Most of us DM or play for the fun and the social interaction, not to mess up each other or to drive each other crazy. Not to be totally random, but I totally agree with this. I've had way too many players in my games that simply want to drive everyone crazy, it doesn't work. :weep: And you can tell your friend Gray Fox that adhering to the RAW need not inhibit creativity. I know plenty of players who believe that finding ways to accomplish what they want using the RAW is every bit as creative as ignoring the RAW and making ad hoc rulings. The RAW is merely a tool … the creativity lies in the hand of the artist using that tool. I wanted to comment on this too. I've been going as close to the rules as possible and I've been able to create a lot of different things. Stuff like Dragon PC's to players in Mechs to giant bio-masses that still fall into correct size categories (I useually just treat em like oozes). Hell, I even had a player who has a sword with more INT then she does. |
| Escef08-08-05, 04:01 PM | We come at the game as a recreation, an adventure, a way to relax. It is not competition to us. If your group works as is, that's fine. That said, I don't think many of us here can give you the advice you want. Your group does not function like any group I have ever been in. It is quite clear that DM and players have an adversarial attitude towards one another. This is an attitude many find very distasteful. Most of us are accustomed to trying to challenge the players, not railroading them into a situation with multiple ways to lose and no good out. You take pride in your wilfull ignorance of the game's rules (it is very hard to know what to houserule when you don't even know the rules). If you ignore the rules we can't give you advice on them. And you ask why you still come here for advice. To be honest, I ask it of you, too. Because I see nothing for you or the rest of us to gain from this interaction. |
| DmMagnus08-08-05, 04:24 PM | "You will find that a serious DM cannot count the number of times they have reads the core books." I have never read the core books! I have played DnD but never read the core books (Of course I have read a little bit, but never everything) Does that make me a "Not-serious-dm"? A good DM isn't a person knowing the rules, it is a person that can tell a story describe a situation, and make the players have fun!(If you do not play hack'a slash with power gamers ofcourse. It is good to know the rules (and i know the rules) but I am not a bad DM because i havn't read the the core books. "You will find that a serious DM cannot count the number of times they have reads the core books." - this is masking removed :rant: |
| Thoronmir08-08-05, 06:06 PM | A good DM isn't a person knowing the rules, it is a person that can tell a story describe a situation, and make the players have fun!I suppose you're right ... if you're players enjoy being told a story rather than creating their own (of course). But for the players to dictate the action, they need to know what they can and can't do. Hence, the rules. In order to give the players their freedom, a DM needs to understand the rules. As long as everyone works off the same set of rules, the players have more control over their PCs and the campaign. DMs that make things up on the fly are the ones that restrict players. But, as we've all told the OP, if your players like your style, kudos! Just don't seek validation on this board since everyone has their own opinion of how to play. |
| Kolo08-08-05, 07:34 PM | but my game is better that yours! PUNK! Good for you. :D ...:shifty: ...punk. Dude, my game sucks. If it was perfect already what need would I have to waste hours hanging around here all the time? Actually... I don't even have a game ATM as I just moved. Hey, been there myself. But as soon as you get a game to play in, proudly gird your loins, hoist the sails and say, "My game is better than yours!" ...:shifty: ...punk. ;) |
| Cymraegmorgan08-08-05, 08:25 PM | I have never read the core books! I have played DnD but never read the core books (Of course I have read a little bit, but never everything) Does that make me a "Not-serious-dm"? A good DM isn't a person knowing the rules, it is a person that can tell a story describe a situation, and make the players have fun!(If you do not play hack'a slash with power gamers ofcourse. It is good to know the rules (and i know the rules) but I am not a bad DM because i havn't read the the core books. "You will find that a serious DM cannot count the number of times they have reads the core books." - this is f-kin bull**** :rant: If you have never read the Core Books, then you are not a serious DM. How can you know the rules if you have not read the Core Rulebooks? :rolleyes: Being able to tell a group of people a good story and describe a situation makes you a good storyteller, not a good DM. And by the way, masking is against the COC. If you have to resort to vulgarity to make your point, then your point lacks validity. |
| chrisnd08-08-05, 08:55 PM | Good for you. :D ...:shifty: ...punk. I hope you realize that I was only joking. ...Punk :P |
| Kolo08-08-05, 09:29 PM | I hope you realize that I was only joking. ...Punk :P Course I do. ...Punk :cool: |
| shadowfox62808-09-05, 02:13 AM | Alright, for the record, the PC wanted his voice heard, and I expressed my real opinions, but it was mostly for the PC. Notice: The PC didn't want to make an account he wasn't going to use, and I wasn't going to let him use mine. For the Thread: Um somewhere (try the third page), I stated that I wasn't going to use the idea. I said (not exact words, welll probibly) that the others were right about it, in which I shouldn't put a PC through that type of moral situation, even if I was trying to put some much needed emotion into the campain (which, as another note, hasn't started yet). So, if you want to comment on how I shouldn't be a DM, how it's inaprropriate, what you would do if you were the PC, etc., don't bother. NOTICE: All insults/negative comments shall not, and should not, be directed at me. Instead, contact the un-contactable "Gray Fox" (as my PC said he would like to be referred as), so blame me of nothing except what I wrote. |
| Rallaster08-09-05, 02:50 AM | I probibly have to put up with more than you.Mind explaining this statement? I might not understand it because it's late. :P I've read the PHB and the DMG. I can't re-read both of them! You want to know why? Because I don't feel like it and/or am lazy!Fixed.Hey, I made up the house rule of reloading crossbows before I found out the real rule, and both were the same!You should get a job working for WotC! :rolleyes: :cookie:Sure, I like to read and comment, but, still, my PC's give me non-biased opinions. Not "refer to this rule," or "well, actually..."How is my opinion "biased?"The fact is, none of you seem to listen.On the contrary, you don't seem to listen.They understand that if I kill their character, it's for a good reason or for their stupidity.What is a "good" reason?You don't understand the mind of a PC, while PC's don't understand the mind of a DM.I think it's fair to say that most DMs have been PCs for quite some time. |
| shadowfox62808-09-05, 03:01 AM | Alright, so, once again, I'm over-reacting. I havn't been playing D&D for more than 9 months now... I became a DM 3 months after my first session, and only because a good friend of mine asked me to do it. I have to put up with a non-creative mind, PC's that annoy the (censored) out of me for ruining my plans, and I can't multitask! (Let me put it this way: 8th Grade COmputer Science didn't go too well when I was trying to do my rpoject while 2 people were bugging for help. Either a nervous breakdown, or I just don't handel those situations well without feeling like I'm going insane.) My PC's are all new. In the S&T (Strategy and Tactics, though we currently only play D&D and Dragonlance) Club, I'm the only person who knows how to make a character correctly.... And I make it by my rules (no Max Rank limit, I give the character the most HP they can get for that level, and they bugged me into making every detail about their character). That has nothing to do with this topic, though, so I shouldn't bore you. |
| shadowfox62808-09-05, 03:10 AM | Sorry for, at the time, is double posting (unless someone posts between this post and my last one), but I forgot what the other IMPORTANT posts of people that aren't me. I have to put up with more: Well, I really can't compare, and I listed reasons in my last post. Re-Reading: No, really, those are my reasons. I use what I see fit.... in the 3.0 Realm (I can't afford the 3.5 edition, where I kindda understand the "S" and "M" version of every weapon, but in the eyes of one PC, only leads to a Greatsword they can hold in one hand). Biased: Well, most of you probibly go by RAW. If not, don't get angry. "Good" Reasons: the PC wants me to kill his character, the character is overpowered, a combo of the first 2 listed, stupidity, to advance the campain, to save the sake for the campain that involves time travel, and what I've decided. Oh, and, even though its already been listed, here's a great one: stupidity. Stupidity: Well.... PC's make bad choices. They do dumb stuff. They may be impulsive. Let me tell you that in all 9 moths that I've ever PCed, those 3 things describe each of my characters. Another Pc's character's sibling has a horn protruding through his head and is described as evil? Attack it of cource! (seriously, I started most of the boss fights) Understanding the Mind of a PC: Well, alright, I'm wrong. But, still, I use my knowladge of the PC's because they know when to go on a quest. I won't have to push (A.K.A. Railroad) them into doing something. Plus, if they don't want to do it, I give them a second choice. |
| Corinthians08-09-05, 03:30 AM | lol furries |
| Rathje08-09-05, 03:39 AM | I have never read the core books! I have played DnD but never read the core books (Of course I have read a little bit, but never everything) Does that make me a "Not-serious-dm"? A good DM isn't a person knowing the rules, it is a person that can tell a story describe a situation, and make the players have fun!(If you do not play hack'a slash with power gamers ofcourse. It is good to know the rules (and i know the rules) but I am not a bad DM because i havn't read the the core books. "You will find that a serious DM cannot count the number of times they have reads the core books." - this is f-kin bull**** :rant: You're not a serious DM. You're a serious Game Master or whatever word you choose to relate to a more generic use, but Dungeon Master has become the staple of Dungeons and Dragons. Without reading the books, you're playing your own game. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that a serious DM is one who knows the rules of D&D, the game associated with DM's. A serious GM is one who can describe a situation and make the players have fun. For the record, one can be a serious DM and GM at the same time. |
| Rallaster08-09-05, 03:44 AM | [QUOTE=Cymraegmorgan]It is good to know the rules (and i know the rules) but I am not a bad DM because i havn't read the the core books.How have you come to know the rules so well without reading the core rulebooks? |
| Gedrin08-09-05, 03:51 AM | shadowfox628: Just a thought...but before you throw out things like: I probibly have to put up with more than you. The fact is, none of you seem to listen. You underestimete the PC's. You don't understand... You should make sure your audiance hasn't been running their current campaign longer than you've been playing or playing longer than you've been alive. Not trying to be harsh...just think about it. |
| DmMagnus08-09-05, 09:37 AM | a DM needs to understand the rules. True true, and i do understand the rules and so should all the DMs and the players. My point is that you dont have to read the books to understand the rules. Most games I have learned from others, Because I takes long time for me to read all the books! And i think many other feels the same way! |
| shadowfox62808-09-05, 03:35 PM | To Gedrin: Cheap shot, funny, and true. Alright, not a cheap shot. But, seriously, I get over-worked sometimes (possibly, but not likely, overstressed), ****** off, taking things seriously, etc. But, really, you do underestimate my PC's. They know how to exploit something when they see a chance. They take advantage of my mistakes. And, to say it again to clarify, they take advantage of my mistakes. The campain I run is the second that I've ever done something in (out of 3 at the moment, and an extra one when the school year starts). And, like I've stated somewhere (for the love of all things, I can;t remember where) that I've only been playing for about 9 months now. And I only started DMing because my friend (a very good friend, I might add) asked me to be the DM. Alright, so I'm not experienced, I over-exagerate, and I don't listen... While, to be honest, some of you may not read any posts after the first (note the "some" in there... It's true). I don't fully explain myself, and that leads to bad results overall. Although it is fun (and sometimes funny, to be honest) to read your replys, maybe I should start being more... clear... Gray Fox, where are you? For the record: I'm 15. |
| Gedrin08-09-05, 03:55 PM | See...you still say that we're underestimating your PC's, but many of the replies you recieved, including mine, pointed out ways in which the PC's would totally bypass your premise and reject the choices that you planned to present. It's not that we were underestimating the PC's, but that we offered up many ways in which we, and presumably a PC, would see an option C. Generally, I'd assume that if you present A and B, and the boards come up with a few C's on their own, the PC's might also. It seems that if you are expecting the PC's to only choose between the A and B you present, we're not the one's underestimating the PC's. It's somewhat moot at this point, but still, don't flail at the rest of us becasue we didn't think you had a good idea or saw some holes in the delima you attempted to present. Just think about it. No need to reply, as I'm going to leave the thread as is at this point. |
| DmMagnus08-09-05, 04:08 PM | If you have never read the Core Books, then you are not a serious DM. How can you know the rules if you have not read the Core Rulebooks? :rolleyes: Being able to tell a group of people a good story and describe a situation makes you a good storyteller, not a good DM. And by the way, masking is against the COC. If you have to resort to vulgarity to make your point, then your point lacks validity. I dont know about you but my friends are able to speak and they showed me how to play the game.. About the bad language: I am sry but I get abit mad When people say I am not a serious DM! I know the rules but never read the books. I just dont like to sit an read rules.. If i wounder about some thing I will look it up.. I am sorry if i offended you! :) |
| DmMagnus08-09-05, 04:21 PM | You're not a serious DM. You're a serious Game Master or whatever word you choose to relate to a more generic use, but Dungeon Master has become the staple of Dungeons and Dragons. Without reading the books, you're playing your own game. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that a serious DM is one who knows the rules of D&D, the game associated with DM's. A serious GM is one who can describe a situation and make the players have fun. For the record, one can be a serious DM and GM at the same time. I see your point. But I play with the DND e3.5 rules(I dont make up my own rules).. I just dont know them extremely well, I know most of the rules the players should know (almost everything in the php, but not all the special attack rules like disarm,bullrush and trip etc.), But i dont know everything about Encounter levels (I dont see the diffrens from encounter Lvls and CR) So i will take your tips and Read the DMG, and some parts of the Phb. I think the diffrence lies in who you game with.. I game with "newbie" players and I an a "Newbie" DM. I got a lot to learn, but dont come here and say I am not serious (I am a dead-serious-newbie-DM :D) . To everybody: Sorry if I offended anyone with bad language in an earlyer post.. just got mad for a sec :P |
| Snake8708-09-05, 06:06 PM | But, really, you do underestimate my PC's. They know how to exploit something when they see a chance. They take advantage of my mistakes. And, to say it again to clarify, they take advantage of my mistakes. I'm sorry, I really want to comment on this part. I think its your responsibility as the DM, even as a new DM, to try and prevent this from happening. You are the DM, your word is the law. If you see the PC's taking advantage of something you should put your foot down and verbalize. "Okay I made a mistake, that didn't happen that way." It makes you sound like a fool, but as a new DM it happens, I know it did for me. |
| DInDenver08-09-05, 10:07 PM | Hi! The way I see it is, there are different types of games out there and each one requires a different DM style. PvP - The DM is mostly a referee. He can throw something in the mix to keep people on their toes, but I don't think the DM does much more than set the stage. Evil - In an evil campaign, the DM has to split the difference between playing the cops and providing a challenge. The players have a lot of the control as there are no morals to prevent them from hacking down anyone who pisses them off. But it gives the DM more tools to work with as now they still have to fight evil (i.e., their competition) and fight good. Hack 'n' Slash - The DM needs to keep the monsters coming and keep the challenge varied and interesting Roleplaying - DM's need to mix action, theology, psychology and fun. One way is not better than the other, but depending on the type of game you are running, you will give a different answer to the same question. |
| shadowfox62808-10-05, 01:51 AM | I'm sorry, I really want to comment on this part. I think its your responsibility as the DM, even as a new DM, to try and prevent this from happening. You are the DM, your word is the law. If you see the PC's taking advantage of something you should put your foot down and verbalize. "Okay I made a mistake, that didn't happen that way." It makes you sound like a fool, but as a new DM it happens, I know it did for me. Hey, at least when the PC's exploit a mistake, they know about it, and they deserve it, despite the events that follow. I prefer to have a certain "DM Personality." Mind you, I'm just saying. My Personality as a DM: They do what they do. If they make a truely stupid mistake (like, say, stealing Olidamara's Lute (not "Loot," like one PC thought), and, therefore earning the diety's wrath, then I'll bail them out. But, if it's something, like "I use Expedious Retreat to get myself and the person that the evil group is going after to safety (... if that confuzed you, like it would do to me if I read it, it's the caster and someone else), and, therefore, ruining my plans to kidnap a certain PC, then I let it go. (In fact, that is a true situation that happened last week. To be honest, they played themselves into a situation that was perfect for me) I'm not big on that "I'm the DM, so you have to listen to me!" I mean, yeah, sure, I get a little power hungry a few times. Especially when your a weakling that has a knack for getting into a apinful situation in real life... Anyway, just because something doesn't go my way (and by "my way," I mean the outcome I was hoping to achive), doesn't mean I will say "That didn't happen, this happens." (In fact, THAT'S railroading)..... And, just to say, I let it be. If it's something serious (like, say, adding a whole hour to the session because the escaped), then I learn. "Alright, there's an anti-magic field placed around the wing of the castle you're staying at, by the King's orders, to protect you." If it's something minor, like "I'm going to steal that orc's +4 Chain Mail!" then I can do something about it. ("Alright. The next day, you find your new, over-powered armor gone! Now, in the first place, you don't NEED an AC of 21. No, you're the only one who can afford to take its!...") Minor things happen, sure. I forget things, natural. I don't do anything about some very minor things (so they have unlimited ammo, big deal... but only for normal ammo). |
| SnowbearK08-10-05, 05:50 AM | Alright, so I'm not experienced, I over-exagerate, and I don't listen... While, to be honest, some of you may not read any posts after the first (note the "some" in there... It's true). I don't fully explain myself, and that leads to bad results overall. Although it is fun (and sometimes funny, to be honest) to read your replys, maybe I should start being more... clear... Gray Fox, where are you? For the record: I'm 15. Now that I've finally read through all the jabbering on both threads...oy... For the record, I've been playing and DMing for twice your age. Secondly, I'd honestly like to know why in Ao's name you thought it'd be a great idea to post your friends comments here instead of telling him to take it like a man and post it himself. It really undermines your credibility to post someone else's thoughts - even if you have their "permission" to do so - without them also providing a way to contact them and express our opinions to them. In other words, how many times have you heard "Oh no, see, it was my friend who had the dream and I...er...he needs to know what you think." Thirdly, I'm glad you can recognize your faults. I think if you can correct them, at least as far as the message boards go, there won't be a number of threads causing you stress. As has been said before, the only common ground we have here is the Rules As Written, and any question you have that is based on those rules will generally be answered with a reference to the rules, usually with a page number and further explanation. If however, you state that this is your own setting, you'll need to elaborate on which rules you have changed and why, before anyone here will be able to actually help you. Most importantly, understand that people have the right to disagree with you, even vehemently so as long as they stay within the CoC, on these message boards. You can't just post something and only get the responses you want. You get them all, for good or bad, so think carefully before you post. |
| shadowfox62808-12-05, 02:11 AM | 1) I don't post things just to get posts. 2) 30 years? Wow, seriously... I love the game, but, man, 30 years? (I really should listen to you people more) 3) I posted it due to his laziness.... If you have a problem with it, I was being nice.... And send a messege to Gray Fox (he made an account.... after I made the board).... What, can't a DM be nice? 4) I really am too stubborn to correct my faults. Normally it's like "Oh, there's a smudge, do it over." Other times it's one of those situations that I think "It won't happen again." But it does. And, rarely, I get so stupid that I give my PC's uber-powerful weapons, or allow them to purchace uber-powerful weapons. Both have happened. 5) I: a] have a very short fuse (a.k.a. I get annoyed easily), b] take things seriously, and c] don't know when to shut my mouth, leading me into situations I don't like... |
| Snake8708-12-05, 02:31 AM | 4) I really am too stubborn to correct my faults. Normally it's like "Oh, there's a smudge, do it over." Other times it's one of those situations that I think "It won't happen again." But it does. And, rarely, I get so stupid that I give my PC's uber-powerful weapons, or allow them to purchace uber-powerful weapons. Both have happened. 5) I: a] have a very short fuse (a.k.a. I get annoyed easily), b] take things seriously, and c] don't know when to shut my mouth, leading me into situations I don't like... I don't really want to sound like im repeating myself, but these two things are going to hinder your performance as a DM and eventually make your game unplayable. One powerful item can screw up a campaign to the point of nobody having anymore fun. Perhaps you should go with less complicated hack and slash games until you aquire more DM experiance. |
| shadowfox62808-12-05, 08:37 PM | Hey, I've dealt with my mistakes. I've gotten rid of the uber-powerful weapons (let me add, that not only did I do it OOC (and the person understood), but I was reluctant to do it because, well, I have a knack of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Which didn't happen that time).... And taking things seriously and having a short fuse is just history. Getting constantly annoyed by my older brother when I was younger, getting picked on and beat up at school, not to mention the cruel jokes... And, when I got mad it was always "We were joking." Really, I don't have to bore you with my life. |