A Paladin of Any Alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Paladin of Any Alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
yellowdingo
04-04-07, 04:23 AM Historically there never was a "Lawful Good" Paladin. What are your thoughts on Using the Paladin in the Player's Handbook with an Alternative Alignment and a few changes to crucial systems. Detect Good rather than Detect Evil, Domains according to the God of the Paladin, ETC.

Can we have that Lawful Evil Paladin riding into your Kingdom with an army of Followers from his/her church to Impale the Heretics?
CharlieRock
04-04-07, 04:29 AM Sure, we include the alternate paladins from Unearthed Arcana as well as the 'Defender' and 'Avenger' classes from Good (http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showbook&bookid=4655). :)
DM_Dan
04-04-07, 04:45 AM Check the online SRD for Paladin Variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVaria ntsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny) - there are suggested rules for variant alignments for paladins there, including Lawful Evil (Paladin of Tyranny).

DMD.
CharlieRock
04-04-07, 04:46 AM Check the online SRD for Paladin Variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVaria ntsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny) - there are suggested rules for variant alignments for paladins there, including Lawful Evil (Paladin of Tyranny).

DMD.
Those are the ones I was referring to from the Unearthed Arcana. ;)
Fend
04-04-07, 04:49 AM Mm... in my eyes tho. a Paladin just isnt a paladin if they arent lawful good.

they have to be feirce and zealous, fair yet firm with a strong Sence of duty.

Its a true class for the upitty moralist in everyones gameing group.

someone who sheilds themselves in an almost naive' cloak dripping with good who can never be expected to do the wrong thing.

Hence why most of my players hate them... tho we DO love the Grey gaurd... Teifling Gray Gaurd. Ooooh yeah.
CharlieRock
04-04-07, 04:56 AM Hence why most of my players hate them... tho we DO love the Grey gaurd... Teifling Gray Gaurd. Ooooh yeah.
Switch the names for ones with more personal meaning; Paladin of Slaughter becomes the Soldier of Slaughter (or something). Tyranny? Terror Knight. Freedom? Liberator. :D
Aglardae
04-04-07, 05:14 PM Why do you always need to bend or modify existing classes? If you don't like LG paladin, just build a new character class and don't call it a paladin, plain and simple. Your game will even be richer with this new diversity.

For your information, historically, at first a paladin was a high ranked knight from a religious order bearing the power of the faith (Charlemagne time or king Arthur tales). Initially he was a crusader and, with time, he became an knight errant defending the bleading heart, known for his heroic deeds.

With this in mind, I would hardly consider anything else than a Lawful alignment (as you faithfuly serve a religious order or dedicate your life to help others). As for good and evil it will depends on how you consider Christianity. But, again, I hardly see how someone evil would help others: LE is a tyrant, CE is a slaughterer and NE is only concerned with himself.

Aglardae
yellowdingo
04-04-07, 07:29 PM Why do you always need to bend or modify existing classes? If you don't like LG paladin, just build a new character class and don't call it a paladin, plain and simple. Your game will even be richer with this new diversity.

For your information, historically, at first a paladin was a high ranked knight from a religious order bearing the power of the faith (Charlemagne time or king Arthur tales). Initially he was a crusader and, with time, he became an knight errant defending the bleading heart, known for his heroic deeds.

With this in mind, I would hardly consider anything else than a Lawful alignment (as you faithfuly serve a religious order or dedicate your life to help others). As for good and evil it will depends on how you consider Christianity. But, again, I hardly see how someone evil would help others: LE is a tyrant, CE is a slaughterer and NE is only concerned with himself.

Aglardae

A Paladin was one of the Twelve Peer of Charlemagne's Court. At no time could you describe them as Lawful Good. They built an Empire through force of Arms and Bloody Genocide While wrapped in the Flag of the Christian Church.
They destroyed rival Christian centres and attacked rival philosophies and doctrines.
Charlemagne's Empire was Definately about the Solidification of Power. That is Lawful Evil. So if a Historical Paladin is Lawful Evil why is this piece of Propaganda peddled as lawful Good?
At best the Paladin is any Lawful.
Midnight_v
04-04-07, 07:39 PM There was a dragon magazine that produced paladins of any alignment....
Bladerock
04-04-07, 07:45 PM Yellowdingo hit the nail in the head: Historical paladins are cruel as heck. (Goliath, is mentioned to be a paladin in the bible!)

Which is the reason my beloved gnome paladin beheaded the Evil king, disembowled him, placed his head on a spear and then marched throughout the city yelling: "Rejoice, you are free from his Tyrany." all the while dragging the corpse behind him and raising the head-on-a-spear high.

Lawful means dicipline or specific moral code in D&D, not stupidity and good means opposer of evil. Otherwise it would be "smite criminal" instead of "smite evil"

Woops, almost strayed away from the topic.

But, yeah unearthed arcana has rules for diferent paladins. But i don't remember the dragon magazine that talked about it.

I would say that simply looking at the changes made for the different paladins in unerthed arcana and then changing the same things based on alightment is enough to make a paladin of any alightment on your own without unbalancing the game.
Edymnion
04-04-07, 08:33 PM Well, the answer was pretty simple for me.
In my games, I don't allow Paladins as a base class. I use the Prestige Paladin as a Fighter/Cleric PrC.

Because, which one of these descriptions fits the paladin best?

1) Broad and generic, and can be any number of differant things simply by choosing differant feats and skills.

2) A specific idea that comes with all of the flavor built in, that is difficult to deviate from.

I'm betting you said #2. Thing is, #1 is what a base class should be, while #2 is almost the definition of a PrC.
Stormbrand
04-04-07, 09:04 PM Historically there never was a "Lawful Good" Paladin. What are your thoughts on Using the Paladin in the Player's Handbook with an Alternative Alignment and a few changes to crucial systems. Detect Good rather than Detect Evil, Domains according to the God of the Paladin, ETC.

Can we have that Lawful Evil Paladin riding into your Kingdom with an army of Followers from his/her church to Impale the Heretics?

Blackguards are usually best for this role. They are something a follower of an evil church can work towards.

The Paladin class represents everything the Knights of Charlemagne were supposed to be. Let that title be reserved for those who live up to the ideal.

Personally, I object to the concept of a Neutral Paladin - there is simply less room for a moral ideal to champion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yellowdingo 04-04-07, 04:23 AM	Historically there never was a "Lawful Good" Paladin. What are your thoughts on Using the Paladin in the Player's Handbook with an Alternative Alignment and a few changes to crucial systems. Detect Good rather than Detect Evil, Domains according to the God of the Paladin, ETC. Can we have that Lawful Evil Paladin riding into your Kingdom with an army of Followers from his/her church to Impale the Heretics?
CharlieRock 04-04-07, 04:29 AM	Sure, we include the alternate paladins from Unearthed Arcana as well as the 'Defender' and 'Avenger' classes from Good (http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showbook&bookid=4655). :)
DM_Dan 04-04-07, 04:45 AM	Check the online SRD for Paladin Variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVaria ntsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny) - there are suggested rules for variant alignments for paladins there, including Lawful Evil (Paladin of Tyranny). DMD.
CharlieRock 04-04-07, 04:46 AM	Check the online SRD for Paladin Variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVaria ntsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny) - there are suggested rules for variant alignments for paladins there, including Lawful Evil (Paladin of Tyranny). DMD. Those are the ones I was referring to from the Unearthed Arcana. ;)
Fend 04-04-07, 04:49 AM	Mm... in my eyes tho. a Paladin just isnt a paladin if they arent lawful good. they have to be feirce and zealous, fair yet firm with a strong Sence of duty. Its a true class for the upitty moralist in everyones gameing group. someone who sheilds themselves in an almost naive' cloak dripping with good who can never be expected to do the wrong thing. Hence why most of my players hate them... tho we DO love the Grey gaurd... Teifling Gray Gaurd. Ooooh yeah.
CharlieRock 04-04-07, 04:56 AM	Hence why most of my players hate them... tho we DO love the Grey gaurd... Teifling Gray Gaurd. Ooooh yeah. Switch the names for ones with more personal meaning; Paladin of Slaughter becomes the Soldier of Slaughter (or something). Tyranny? Terror Knight. Freedom? Liberator. :D
Aglardae 04-04-07, 05:14 PM	Why do you always need to bend or modify existing classes? If you don't like LG paladin, just build a new character class and don't call it a paladin, plain and simple. Your game will even be richer with this new diversity. For your information, historically, at first a paladin was a high ranked knight from a religious order bearing the power of the faith (Charlemagne time or king Arthur tales). Initially he was a crusader and, with time, he became an knight errant defending the bleading heart, known for his heroic deeds. With this in mind, I would hardly consider anything else than a Lawful alignment (as you faithfuly serve a religious order or dedicate your life to help others). As for good and evil it will depends on how you consider Christianity. But, again, I hardly see how someone evil would help others: LE is a tyrant, CE is a slaughterer and NE is only concerned with himself. Aglardae
yellowdingo 04-04-07, 07:29 PM	Why do you always need to bend or modify existing classes? If you don't like LG paladin, just build a new character class and don't call it a paladin, plain and simple. Your game will even be richer with this new diversity. For your information, historically, at first a paladin was a high ranked knight from a religious order bearing the power of the faith (Charlemagne time or king Arthur tales). Initially he was a crusader and, with time, he became an knight errant defending the bleading heart, known for his heroic deeds. With this in mind, I would hardly consider anything else than a Lawful alignment (as you faithfuly serve a religious order or dedicate your life to help others). As for good and evil it will depends on how you consider Christianity. But, again, I hardly see how someone evil would help others: LE is a tyrant, CE is a slaughterer and NE is only concerned with himself. Aglardae A Paladin was one of the Twelve Peer of Charlemagne's Court. At no time could you describe them as Lawful Good. They built an Empire through force of Arms and Bloody Genocide While wrapped in the Flag of the Christian Church. They destroyed rival Christian centres and attacked rival philosophies and doctrines. Charlemagne's Empire was Definately about the Solidification of Power. That is Lawful Evil. So if a Historical Paladin is Lawful Evil why is this piece of Propaganda peddled as lawful Good? At best the Paladin is any Lawful.
Midnight_v 04-04-07, 07:39 PM	There was a dragon magazine that produced paladins of any alignment....
Bladerock 04-04-07, 07:45 PM	Yellowdingo hit the nail in the head: Historical paladins are cruel as heck. (Goliath, is mentioned to be a paladin in the bible!) Which is the reason my beloved gnome paladin beheaded the Evil king, disembowled him, placed his head on a spear and then marched throughout the city yelling: "Rejoice, you are free from his Tyrany." all the while dragging the corpse behind him and raising the head-on-a-spear high. Lawful means dicipline or specific moral code in D&D, not stupidity and good means opposer of evil. Otherwise it would be "smite criminal" instead of "smite evil" Woops, almost strayed away from the topic. But, yeah unearthed arcana has rules for diferent paladins. But i don't remember the dragon magazine that talked about it. I would say that simply looking at the changes made for the different paladins in unerthed arcana and then changing the same things based on alightment is enough to make a paladin of any alightment on your own without unbalancing the game.
Edymnion 04-04-07, 08:33 PM	Well, the answer was pretty simple for me. In my games, I don't allow Paladins as a base class. I use the Prestige Paladin as a Fighter/Cleric PrC. Because, which one of these descriptions fits the paladin best? 1) Broad and generic, and can be any number of differant things simply by choosing differant feats and skills. 2) A specific idea that comes with all of the flavor built in, that is difficult to deviate from. I'm betting you said #2. Thing is, #1 is what a base class should be, while #2 is almost the definition of a PrC.
Stormbrand 04-04-07, 09:04 PM	Historically there never was a "Lawful Good" Paladin. What are your thoughts on Using the Paladin in the Player's Handbook with an Alternative Alignment and a few changes to crucial systems. Detect Good rather than Detect Evil, Domains according to the God of the Paladin, ETC. Can we have that Lawful Evil Paladin riding into your Kingdom with an army of Followers from his/her church to Impale the Heretics? Blackguards are usually best for this role. They are something a follower of an evil church can work towards. The Paladin class represents everything the Knights of Charlemagne were supposed to be. Let that title be reserved for those who live up to the ideal. Personally, I object to the concept of a Neutral Paladin - there is simply less room for a moral ideal to champion.