Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ashianyl 07-08-04, 01:59 AM	Hi guys... sorry for the long background story, but it's part of understanding on the possibilities that might occur. I have started a new campaign at Level 1 in a campaign world of my creation. The history here is that 20 years ago, a massive Orc campaign wiped out most of humanity and the surviving humans, elves, dwarves, halflings and gnomes fled to a highly defensible mountain range where they held on. The war was fought to a stalemate and the orcs were slowly turning on each other and in the end left the survivors alone. To cut the long story short, the survivors built the place from scratch and forged a metropolis that is home to all races (except orcs) and all kinds of cultures from eastern to western. To survive, the city constantly trains its people in academies (any of the PHB classes), where the graduates are expected to serve the city. The politics here are governed mainly by the humans (most reproductive race - that, and other races don't take halflings seriously). There are three human houses of LG, LN and LE. The city itself is LN in alignment, although it is governed by a LG paladin from a LG house. The LG house is in charge of overall city defence (the army). The commerce is maintained by a LN house, whose interest is to keep everything going smoothly (the politicians and businessmen). The LE house, while loyal to the crown, has somewhat questionable methods - they prefer to see efficiency above all else and do not really care about the methods used to achieve the goal. The LE house is in charge of maintaining local law and order (the police). Here is where things are getting tricky... I have a paladin in the party who is VERY LG... and the politics of the city are a test on his character's spirituality. Already the party is currently patrolling the slums as part of their service to the city and the paladin doesn't really like the commanding officer, who is LE. While the commander hasn't done anything against the law, the sessions have hinted that he is up to no good... Oh, I forgot to mention that the slums are full of kobolds who serve as the manual labour of the city (the kobolds prefer the company of humans than as whipping boys for orcs). Anyway, the commander is trying to incite the kobolds into a riot by making life miserable for them (following the law to the letter, mind you)... when that happens, he will have the excuse he needs to clamp down hard on the kobolds and help his clan push for the motion of enslaving the kobolds permanently rather than have them as a work force. All in the name of efficiency. Now, as a paladin, if you found out about this plan... what would you do? I don't want my players to feel restricted that he can't attack a superior officer... yet if he attacks him, there would be ramifications if there were insufficient proof. On the other hand, if the paladin does not interfere with the plan and allows it to proceed, should i penalise the player? Well, any thoughts? I am asking because the game is on this weekend and would like to see how my player would likely react and what I can prepare for it. Thanks in advance. :)
Mitchell 07-08-04, 02:27 AM	1) Report to the governor what is happening. If he has any proof at all, the governor will probably investigate. The wonder of magic can expidite the process(detect lie, etc.) 2) Does your campaign follow the traditional good vs. evil motif? If so, the paladins first responsibility is to the good, not the law. Unlawful actions taken to uphold the good are forgiven much more easily than evil actions. 3) The paladin could always put themselves in the middle of the flashpoint and wait for it to happen. I don't know all the details of what "making life miserable" entails, but if it's on the order of sending thugs down to beat up some kobolds, all they have to do is wait around where the attacks are happening. 4) Confront the commanding officer. Mindless obedience does not come from lawful good. The paladin could simply refuse to carry out their orders. This will eventually force the issue and result in #1 or #2. There are a lot of things that could happen. Not knowing the player, predicting what will happen is difficult. At the end of it all, unless they conduct themselves in a manner grossly against the paladins code, just don't be too rough on them. If they find a way to solve the issue without any violation, reward them a bit. I don't know if you give extra xp's for things, but that would be appropriate. If not, then just fudge the next magical goodie and make it something good for them, a +1 weapon of choice or something else level appropriate.
Gothic_Demon 07-08-04, 04:36 AM	Why is this difficult for your Paladin? Incitement of racial hatred to enslave a people is pretty clearly in the evil section of alignment, so your paladin is well within his remit to stop it any way necessary (short of evil himself). All he has to do is: 1) Work against the plans of the superior to keep him from overly oppressing the kobolds or inciting the riot. This can be done by dealing with the people who are making trouble, and since he is in the slums this is easier for the Paladin. 2) Build up evidence against the Commander, ensuring that it implicates him in the uncovered plot. Then, when the plot has been foiled, go and arrest his superior officer (all perfectly legal and acceptable). And if you feel a need for more closure: 3) Have the commander react badly to the attempt to arrest him and attack the Paladin. The Paladin will then have to kill him.
Ashianyl 07-08-04, 05:57 AM	whoops... i guess i forgot to mention that the place, being the last surviving city for all races that are non-orc, are struggling to survive. hence everyone here is battle hardened and obeys the law to the letter because it's been drilled into their heads that however much you dislike the law, it's for the good of the many. i have no doubt the paladin would oppose the commander, but the consequences of not driving up efficiency in the city will factor in later in the game... so i guess the dilemma would come from there. the LN and LE factions are in agreement with the commander on his action (actually, they are the ones backing this action and the commander is only the implementor). as for how the commander is making the kobolds suffer, he has his men abuse the children who aren't fulfilling the required work quota the city has for citizens. The law was passed on the kobolds several years ago to control their population, but to ensure that they aren't overly prejudiced, there is a tax that allows a child to be exempted from the extra work. The king wasn't too happy about the law, but he was forced to pass it by popular demand from the LN and LE factions. sorry, should have mentioned all this to fully reflect the dilemma bit. :embarrass
Gothic_Demon 07-08-04, 07:00 AM	i have no doubt the paladin would oppose the commander, but the consequences of not driving up efficiency in the city will factor in later in the game... so i guess the dilemma would come from there.Your paladin is gonna struggle. Efficiency is not in a Paladin's code, doing good is, no matter how inefficient that is. He has to do the right thing and suck up the consequences, or stop being a paladin.
beshabas 07-08-04, 08:03 AM	Originally posted by Ashianyl hence everyone here is battle hardened and obeys the law to the letter because it's been drilled into their heads that however much you dislike the law, it's for the good of the many. i have no doubt the paladin would oppose the commander, but the consequences of not driving up efficiency in the city will factor in later in the game... so i guess the dilemma would come from there. The king wasn't too happy about the law, but he was forced to pass it by popular demand from the LN and LE factions. This is an interesting post... Hmm, this is tricky. As a GM, I would actually rule that the alignments are actually reflections of the player's ethics/psyche/standing in the world. As a general comment, the law being drilled to everybody's head is somewhat restricting as eventually you will be making drones (with a set of rules for instructions but has no real conscience, think the Lawful plane of Mechanus) unless your campaign is a challenge of common sensibilities for your players i.e. Law 1 states that you must wear clothes backwards. It would be a real RP challenge for a) the players to conform or b) players to challenge. If thats what your game is about... As a guide to my players at the point of character creation, I tell my players that the 3 "axis" of alignments i.e. Good, Neutral or Evil are actually the Ends while the other side i.e. Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic are the Means. In effect, the rule is what means would the players actually take to fulfill their ends. As a guide from my game, in addition to the description in the PHB: THE ENDS: Good: "Uphold the truth", "Preservation of Justice", "Against all forms of oppression/prejudice" Neutral: "Self-preservation", "Ideal and natural", "Within the norm" Evil: "Spread the dread", "Power over all", "Oppress and prejudism" THE MEANS: Lawful: "As according to the tenets of the common law/ethos of my order" Neutral: "Only if it falls within my boundaries of existence to be involved" Chaotic: "Whatever, however, whenever, whoever, whichever way works best and fastest" A way to translate this would be: (as in your paladin) Lawful Good: "I will preserve justice as according to the tenets of the common law/ethos of my order" The end here is preservation of justice, with the means of the common law/ethos of order. Personally, the ends are truly greater than that of the means. Efficiency does not cut it (unless there is a patron deity in your game with an Efficiency portfolio):angel: What would be helpful is: 1. How would you view alignment in you game as that would help a lot for us to determine your dilemma. 2. What are the common laws of this city (perhaps you could set-up something like the 10 commandments, prime directives etc) 3. The patron deity of the paladin 4. The patron deity of the ruler (which will justify to why he is working with evil characters, which personally, is not compatible as the ends are not the same) :confused: Hope this helps. :)
Ashianyl 07-08-04, 09:06 AM	Thanks for the interesting view on alignment, Beshaba. And yes, the paladin will struggle with the law. Ok, about your questions... originally posted by Beshabas What would be helpful is: 1. How would you view alignment in you game as that would help a lot for us to determine your dilemma. 2. What are the common laws of this city (perhaps you could set-up something like the 10 commandments, prime directives etc) 3. The patron deity of the paladin 4. The patron deity of the ruler (which will justify to why he is working with evil characters, which personally, is not compatible as the ends are not the same) 1. Alignment is viewed pretty much the way you summed it up. I only placed the restriction on LE as not being totally bad... you still have the city state's interest at heart, but you will use any means necessary to achieve those interests. 2. The laws are (aside from the no killing, no stealing etc): - Follow the schedules laid out for you as a citizen. Efficiency is priority and will be rewarded (overtime pay). - No fighting. Fighting is a waste of energy that is better spent against the enemy or in the arena (the government understands well enough that entertainment is good for morale) - Obey your commander. The commanders are in charge of the smooth running of each city section, be it the slums or the king's castle. - There shall be no riots. Disatisfaction of any sort must be brought to the City Council to be settled. Any form of protest is a waste of time and will be met with force of arms. - Criminals proven guilty by a commander will be exiled to the borderlands or executed. Resources are scarce and will not be wasted on unproductive members of society. (think of commanders as Star Trek Federation captains in terms of their autonomous powers) 3. I'm using generic PHB gods here... PC Paladin is a follower of Heironous (hope I got the spelling right, don't have the PHB with me right now). 4. Ruler is a follower of... um, I haven't determined that yet. The way the story went was that he was elected King because of his charisma and that the people like him, including the non-humans. While he generally tries to do good, his hands are tied. And many times over, the needs of the people in the long term always somehow wins out. Sometimes he feels like a puppet (which to the LN and LE factions, he is). As King, he commands the army, but on matters of the state, the council has to vote. Hope the info helps... and thanks for reading my post, long and windy as it is. :)
MrkGrismer 07-08-04, 10:02 AM	Really, all the Paladin has to do is figure out a way that the Kobolds can become more efficient without having to kill themselves doing more work. Perhaps he, himself, helps them secretly at night to meet their quotos. Perhaps he pays their tax for them (I think I read that right). Perhaps he summons undead to help them (oh wait, scratch that :D).
Ashianyl 07-08-04, 10:59 AM	originally posted by MrkGrismer Perhaps he summons undead to help them (oh wait, scratch that ). haha... that was funny. Yeah, I can see the party mage suggesting that one. Anything to screw up the Paladin's day... :D
Gothic_Demon 07-08-04, 11:02 AM	- Follow the schedules laid out for you as a citizen. Efficiency is priority and will be rewarded (overtime pay).So why don't the Kobolds work really hard to make more money? Follow the schedules laid out for you as a citizen No fighting. Fighting is a waste of energy There shall be no riots. Any form of protest is a waste of time Obey your commander. Efficiency is priorityThe computer is your friend... [/Paranoia gag] This whole city strikes me as LE, regardless of the alignment you have applied to it. It promotes oppression and deprivation, and has no controls to prevent gluttony and abuse. If I was playing a Paladin in your game I'd be trying to bring the government and commanders down and replace them with a more benign and beneficial system... think of commanders as Star Trek Federation captains in terms of their autonomous powersSomeone must come above them and outrank them, or they are the de facto power within the city, and thus not considered 'legitimate authority' to a Paladin if they are evil. A paladin in my game would be walking perilously close to ex-paladin if he willingly continued to follow the harsh rules of a LE commander. He'd have no choice but to thwart/stop him. i have no doubt the paladin would oppose the commander, but the consequences of not driving up efficiency in the city will factor in later in the game...The Paladin would have to find a better way to lead the people to greater efficiency. That's what his high Charisma and Diplomacy are for, so he can lead people into better things...
Ashianyl 07-08-04, 11:12 AM	originally posted by Gothic_Demon This whole city strikes me as LE, regardless of the alignment you have applied to it. It promotes oppression and deprivation, and has no controls to prevent gluttony and abuse. If I was playing a Paladin in your game I'd be trying to bring the government and commanders down and replace them with a more benign and beneficial system... Shhhhhhhh. Don't say that out too loud! The paladin might hear you! Well, the city is pretty much LN in most areas... except for the Slums... hehe. The citizens are hardworking and follow the law, and there are elections and politics to worry about so oppression just doesn't happen that easily. It's just that the Kobolds have no voice in the ruling council (all the other races have at least one rep). I was kind of going for the 'empower the Kobolds' storyline, but that's not a predetermined path that the paladin would choose. As for the kobolds working harder... it's not like they don't want to, it's just that they are labourers... cheap manpower that helps sustain the city's development. They can work very very hard and still find that they only earn enough to scrape a living. The irony here is, the citizens believe the kobolds are being given a better chance in life away from the brutal orcs... in reality, they are still caught in a vicious cycle of poverty. I'm sorry if everything sounds convoluted... but I wanted to make a rich political drama this time round. Once again, thanks for reading my post and giving your valuable comments. :)
Gothic_Demon 07-08-04, 11:35 AM	I'm sorry if everything sounds convoluted... but I wanted to make a rich political drama this time round.All power to you, and if it helps at all, this is not only possible but can be very successful. However, beware of your paladin. (S)He might make a decision you're not expecting... This is a true story from my last campaign: The ruling council were killed in a freak accident (a Dwarven sorceror with a wand of fireballs), and the city was in trouble. Orcs had attacked, and the city had no food. They were expecting a seige from an evil Elven army. The farmers nearby had lost a lot of their food when the orcs came. The city was burning in places because of the orc attacks, and the city treasury (along with all the important city documents) lay under four storeys of rubble. On top of that, the City Watch and the Legion (army) were antagonistic to one another, and they kept getting in each others way. Many on each side had died in the orcish attacks, and the criminal element in the city (led from the shadows by a Succubus) were getting out of hand. Something had to be done!!!! SO, my Paladin... Declared martial law, removed her own difficult boss from power, removed all power from the city watch and conscripted the watchmen into the army, and turned them into military police. She commandeered the wagons in the city that belonged to the merchants and sent forces out to the farms to bring people and their food supplies into the city. She sent the prisoners in the city gaol into work details and forced them to put out the fires and dig out the treasury (for which work she offered pardons). And finally she led her newly reconstructed and rebuilt Legion against the Elven forces before they could start the seige, taking all their food into the bargain. Paladins can be difficult to handle sometimes...
Glak 07-08-04, 01:53 PM	Slavery is not at all efficient. It is afterall, just a primative form of communism. The FREE market is the most efficient system. Please take Economics I sometime; it is your responsability as a citizen. As for the paladin that's easy. He should just go to a high-ranking paladin and say "Mr. Meanie is evil and up to no good" Then the paladin will walk over, scan the dude for evil and hack his head off. In in a world with detect evil, paladins would likely have the authority to summararily execute people, subject only to review by other paladins.
jnrhayz 07-08-04, 02:30 PM	I would hate to live in a world where someone could just whack my head off because "he's a paladin"... Anyway, I would say if I was playing said paladin, I would gather evidence that the commander is trying to "incite a riot", which you said is illegal. Take this to the government and he is arrested. At the same time I would probably work behind the scenes with the kobolds to try to come up with some kind of efficiency proposal to the "council" which would increase the kobolds work ethic and still benefit the city. You said the leader is a LG paladin so he should either lose his paladin status or disband the council because they are being evil.
Sildatorak 07-08-04, 03:23 PM	Originally posted by Glak Slavery is not at all efficient. It is afterall, just a primative form of communism. I don't know if I would go about describing it that way…in (theoretical) communism people don't benefit directly from their work, but it is still a benefit to the society as a whole that they are a part of. In slavery the work doesn't benefit the people doing it at all, and the psychological implications of that and the loss of freedom are the reasons it is so inefficient in the long run. People in a fantasy setting probably haven't studied economics scientifically, though, so they probably would think that enslaving the kobolds is a pretty good idea (even though they are economically enslaved right now). Basically it is the paladin's duty to stop such an evil thing from hapening, though directly confronting his commander wouldn't be the way to do it unless he has authority for such a procedure. The player will hopefully be smart enough to realize that attacking his commander is the wrong course of action (because it would be chaotic) unless the other avenues have been exhausted.
Michaelot 07-08-04, 03:31 PM	First of all...Cool Post! ;) Second of all I strongly agree with beshabas on alignment. Paladins should play, "The Means, justify the ends, not the ends justify the means." To give you some feedback: If I am getting this right, maybe reading into it too much :bigeyes: It sounds like the LEs have the LNs convinced this is the best way, to bring the kobolds into slavery? It sounds like the LNs then jumped on the band wagon...is that correct? This is a tricky situation...:whatsthis: If this is the case and the leader really is a "pawn" or "puppet" as he feels...I could see some serious things happening here. I can see Civil War breaking out eventually. No Paladin Leader would allow slavery to be passed, especially if he is the leader of the armies. :D So here are some options, with consequences: 1)Marshall law could be declared, as was told before, but it would be used within the bounds of the law to defend a helpless and depraived people. Either way with this kind of plot it would greatly affect the Kobolds outlook on the 2 house of LN and LE, while improving it for the LG. So I agree that other means could made that make everyone happy. 2)In this situation if the Paladin informs the Kobolds of some of the societies plans, hoping they will tolerate it, until something can be done, it may make the kobolds feel even more restricted (seeing how they restricted their births) and generate more hate and reverse hate. Additionally they may well just dump the society and join the Orcs or go somewhere else and become their own people. This gives the Paladin insight into the true nature of kobolds, just what is there alignment, if they will tolerate things getting tougher, and by time in 3)Getting other more powerful people to stop it all may work. He can go bring up the information to the LG house. If the Leader of the city heard of this kind of information, he could talk to the other houses in a speech saying that this type of behavior is wrong, it greatly disturbs him, etc. This will set some of the LNs to maybe change their ways, some of the LEs to consider other ways...and probably divide the city. But it still offends the Kobolds, the obivious large working force in the city. This kind of thing would have to be done quietly, but it is a high risk, because secrets get told eventually. 4) There is also this possibility. The Paladin could convince the people to keep the Kobolds where they are and make constructs or permanent unseen servants (or other figures that obey commands and NEED masters.) This would increase production greatly. "Construct, do this!" "No Master I will not!" That really doesn't happen unless they put in personality into the constructs with magical items. Needless to say depriving people of rights...Pallys just don't fly with that, unless there is just cause, because they are being punished justly by the community or the law. If anything else happens in this, there could be some huge effects in civil disorder. Concering this:Orginally Posted by Glak As for the paladin that's easy. He should just go to a high-ranking paladin and say "Mr. Meanie is evil and up to no good" Then the paladin will walk over, scan the dude for evil and hack his head off. In in a world with detect evil, paladins would likely have the authority to summararily execute people, subject only to review by other paladins. I am opening my own thread on this, So I will not clutter this cool thread up with debate. :D The new Thread is called, Paladins and their Detect Evil Ability Feel free to check this out if you want to.
primemover003 07-08-04, 05:11 PM	The paladin should go to the Kobolds and have them avoid violent action at all costs! Even though I think it's a terrible strategy against truly evil people, a non-violent protest led by the Paladin would work. When the commander makes his move to initiate a riot, the Kobolds plop down, discontinue their work and the paladin stands right in front of the lackeys sent to rouse the kobolds. Before this happens he does need to gather evidence, inform the King Paladin that something fishy is going on and prepare for a confrontation... ...meanwhile the other PC's really gotta hit the commander where it hurts. His support. They need to blackmail, bribe, or threaten the LN merchant houses to back off the plan or else be exposed to the citizenry at large. If it can happen to one race in the city it could happen to any of them! This could be pressed to all the races other than human... especially the Halflings (seeing as they aren't highly respected either)!!!!
Ashianyl 07-08-04, 08:58 PM	Geez guys, thanks! I didn't expect so many great insights into the wonderful world of a paladin's thoughts all in one day. I can see where everything is going more clearly depending on the path my PC paladin takes in relation to the houses and the non-humans. originally posted by Glak Slavery is not at all efficient. originally posted by Sildatorak People in a fantasy setting probably haven't studied economics scientifically, though, so they probably would think that enslaving the kobolds is a pretty good idea (even though they are economically enslaved right now). The LN and LE houses can't think of a more efficient way of saving gold pieces. Why waste it on wages when the same results can be obtained for free? Anyway, that's their shortsightedness that is causing the problem. :D originally posted by jnrhayz You said the leader is a LG paladin so he should either lose his paladin status or disband the council because they are being evil. The king doesn't necessarily know everything... so yes, if the players brought this to his attention (and if they somehow get an audience), then yes, the king would put a stop to this... that's why the LN and LE houses are doing everything hush hush. originally posted by Michaelot Marshall law could be declared Have you ever tried doing that to a city that's not totally controlled by any one single power? I'm pretty sure the elves and dwarves (not to mention the unrespected halflings) would rise against such a thing. And in a world without television, rumours are just soooooooooooooooo easily planted (well, even with television in our world, it's still soooooooooooo easily planted). ;) originally posted by primemover003 ...meanwhile the other PC's really gotta hit the commander where it hurts. His support. They need to blackmail, bribe, or threaten the LN merchant houses to back off the plan or else be exposed to the citizenry at large. The party would be more than happy to do this if they ever get their hands on all the info... hehe. Again, I can see some pretty interesting paladin dilemmas here. Should PC paladin resort to such dishonarable measures (acting behind everyone's back with threats) to achieve a greater good or just simply expose the scoundrels, which would be the most direct 'clean' route but cause massive problems for the city at large? All these are hypothetical, of course, and certain choices might seem obvious, but then again, players don't necessarily have all the information that's being discussed right here to make an informed decision. Ahhh... the wonderful world of possibilities. ;) Anyway, thanks guys! All this info will definitely spice up my campaign this weekend.
Sparks The untouchable 07-08-04, 11:22 PM	Personally i think the paladins first priority would be to organize the kobolds. Get them a vioce on the concil and inform the king. The LN and LE factions would not be willing to lose the kobold labour force as a hole. So if the kobolds (all the kobolds) just plane refused to work, then the LN and LE house would have to negotiate. The Kobolds would have to be strong and be willing to take loses (in lives) for thisd to work. they could threaten to leave, as well. Also if the kobalds were to riase up whos to say they wouldn't win? being that they are the general labour for the entire city then their numbers would be high, also they should have some good deployment adventages as well. (who cleans the castle?) How many of the paladins in the LG houses would jion the Kobolds in their strungle? maybe the paladin should look for other tacticle advantages the kobolds may have, (think veit kong) then warn the LNs and the LE that a kobold riot may not be in their best enterests.
Glak 07-08-04, 11:50 PM	"slavery the work doesn't benefit the people doing it at all, and the psychological implications of that" The psychological factor is only one of the reasons that communism doesn't work, and not even the main one. The main reason is that every person values things differently. When you go to a store and buy something both you and the store benefit. Let's say that I want to buy a dog. A dog would be worth $200 to me. To the store it is only worth $100. We agree on a price of $150. I now am down $150 worth of money but up $200 worth of dog. I gained $50 networth. Likewise the store is down $100 worth of dog and up $150 worth of money. They gained $50 networth. We are now both richer! The economy as a whole has gained $100. This is how wealth is created. Likewise wealth can be destroyed. I can force a man to mow my lawn (assuming that he is my slave). I gain $10 worth of lawn mowing from him, but he loses $30 worth of time and dignity. I am richer but he is poorer. Overall the economy is $20 poorer. This is how wealth is destroyed. Economics is not a zero sum game. Freedom creates wealth, Socialism destroys it. Ok I'll stop hijacking this thread.
Ashianyl 07-09-04, 01:50 AM	Glak, your point on economics has its merits, but can I really apply it believeably to a fantasy setting? Lets just say that a member of the council subscribes to your understanding of economics. Unfortunately, he looks around and sees his fellow councilmen are not as educated as he is. He also sees that his fellow countrymen aren't as educated as he is. Yes, they may know how to fight, how to grow crops, how to forge iron, but those are skills that do not have an abstract concept to it, and the way you just put your theory of economics, it would definitely be very abstract to the common people. Look around our own world for example and see the leaders. More often than not, it's the charismatic person who leads and not the one who talks the most sense. The world is full of simple people who are willing to follow anyone who can give them hope and vision of a better future. The people may have different opinions of the leader after some time, but that's learning from experience. In the end, the said councilman has two choices... to either say what he believes is true (and maybe get ridiculed or ignored for saying it) or keep quiet and try to implement what he knows is true behind the scenes. Anyway, that's just my opinion. :)
Sildatorak 07-09-04, 05:23 AM	Originally posted by Glak Economics is not a zero sum game. Freedom creates wealth, Socialism destroys it. That's why I threw that parenthetical theoretical in front of communism. Ideal communism does have a great degree of freedom, but the form that was formerly practiced in the USSR was a far cry from what communism should be. Now I'm done hijacking the thread, too.