A Paladin Who Isn't Calvalry [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Paladin Who Isn't Calvalry [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Escef
12-09-03, 07:58 PM I would love to see a Paladin without the bonded mount ability and something in its place. I don't like a class that has an ability that forces it into a specific role like calvary. Rangers can be melee or ranged specialists, casters have spell selection, rogues have skills, fighters have feat selection. It seems to me that the least versatile classes are barbarian, paladin, and monk; and even the monk's been revised for versatility.

Still, I will also admit that when the bonded mount can be used, it is powerful. The ability to move the mounts movement and still full-attack, portable higher ground bonus, possible extra attacks (the mount can fight after all), possible +2 to hit or AC (bonded mount uses aid another action). So, what bonuses could equal this? What could one replace bonded mount with without depowering or overpowering the class?
E-Vile
12-09-03, 08:03 PM You could allow some sort of eagle familiar or something (perhaps one of the exalted arcane familiars in BoED) and outfit it for combat instead of casting. But probably nothing with an initial int higher than 3 (3+ is humanoid intelligence) or else it's akin to slavery.
A Man In Black
12-09-03, 09:08 PM Simple.

Have the paladin take Leadership and some sort of appropriate cohort, and give the mount benefits to the cohort.
RRG
12-09-03, 09:16 PM Yeah, giving the Pally leadership for free would be a nice replacement for when the pally first gets a mount, and in place of things like bonded mount, give it a familiar and have it advance like the paladins mount would.
Escef
12-10-03, 02:47 AM Another problem I have with the whole bonded mount thing is that the mount can become a very easily eliminated threat at higher levels, changing to a different type of animal doesn't solve that. I had been toying with the idea of a tempoary boost to AC, attacks, and hp. Akin to barbarian rage but expressed as an aura of holy power or some such. Leadership is a start on a varient, but honestly don't know how well it'd work. Replacing bonded mount with a familiar could also work to a certain degree.

Or maybe to be more concise, what would you do to modify the Paladin class to allow more options, as the bonded mount ability leads the class into the calvalry role? (e.g.: holy archer, heavy infantry, devout fencer, etc.)
Morka
12-10-03, 01:30 PM Perhaps could you replace the bounded mount by an intelligent, LG weapon?
Luminous Crayon
12-10-03, 01:51 PM The Hero

Alignment: Any Good
Hit Die: d12
Skill points: 2 + Int modifier
Class skills: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge (Religion), Intimidate, Jump, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Swim

Level BAB Fort Reflex Will Special Qualities
1 1 2 0 2 Smite 1/day, Aura of Good
2 2 3 0 3 Divine Grace, Lay On Hands
3 3 3 1 3 Aura of Courage, Divine Health
4 4 4 1 4 Turn Undead
5 5 4 1 4 Smite 2/day
6 6/1 5 2 5 Remove Disease 1/week
7 7/2 5 2 5
8 8/3 6 2 6
9 9/4 6 3 6 Remove Disease 2/week
10 10/5 7 3 7 Smite 3/day
11 11/6/1 7 3 7
12 12/7/2 8 4 8 Remove Disease 3/week
13 13/8/3 8 4 8
14 14/9/4 9 4 9
15 15/10/5 9 5 9 Smite 4/day, Remove Disease 4/week
16 16/11/6/1 10 5 10
17 17/12/7/2 10 5 10
18 18/13/8/3 11 6 11 Remove Disease 5/week
19 19/14/9/4 11 6 11
20 20/15/10/5 12 6 12 Smite 5.day

Things that have been added:
Smite now affects any creature, regardless of alignment
Several new class skills have been added
The Code of Conduct is now gone
The Will save has now been improved
The hit die has been increased to d12.

Things that have been cut:
Detect Evil has been cut, on grounds of being too damn annoying.
Special Mount has been cut, on grounds of being retarded.
All spellcasting has been removed.

This was my attempt to rework the paladin into a more viable class while still keeping the flavour (well, the good parts of the flavour, anyway.) Among the changes I made was the removal of that blasted horse.

I changed the name from "Paladin" to "Hero" to get rid of many editions' worth of baggage the class is bogged down with, and to help get rid of the misconception that a Hero has to have any connection to a church or deity (the way many people thought a paladin had to.) I also replaced that nit-picky Code of Conduct with the simple instruction to "keep a LG alignment or lose your powers." The premise is that a Hero derives his powers from a sincere desire to protect others, and performs his amazing abilities through sheer determination.
Joseph Wolfgar
12-10-03, 05:35 PM Well, I can see your point of the paladin class being preselected for calvary, but before changing it, consider why the mount is there. It provides a companion, a steed, and helps the paladin fit the image of the questing knight. I know my first sucsessful charecter, a paladin named Joseph Wolfgar, got out of many tricky situations with only the help of Dimitri, his dragon bonded mount.

If you do decide to remove the bonded mount, consider giving the paladin a few extra feats like the fighters bonus feats (or cleric type feats), or some extra turning or laying on hands like abilites. Now he might fit the Royal Foot Knight image:fight!:

Maybe even changing his race, like the Dragon Disciple in Tome and Blood, slowly into a celestial might be an option, progressing from asimar to half celestial to the full blown angel. :angel:
Luminous Crayon
12-10-03, 05:53 PM Originally posted by Joseph Wolfgar
Maybe even changing his race, like the Dragon Disciple in Tome and Blood, slowly into a celestial might be an option, progressing from asimar to half celestial to the full blown angel. :angel:

Very interesting. Sounds like the paladin could be an excellent candidate for the "turn into an outsider" ability monks get at level 20; perhaps I will add this to my "hero" variant.
Lord Stigius
12-11-03, 07:59 PM I have made a variant paladin called 'Inquisitor' in my campaign.
Inquisitors are trained to fight evil spellcaster and outsiders. They get a mount, but it gets only higher intelligence and empathic bond, without all the other abilities when paladin progresses in level. Basically an intelligent and faithful mount for travels, but worthless in combat, especially at higher level.

Now what the inquisitor gets:
The class is focused on fighting magic users, so:
- Spellcraft as a class skill
- Full caster level (except first four levels, when paladins get no spells). Effective caster level = class level - 4.
- A few bonus spells on class list (but no more spells per day). The most important is Dimensional Anchor on level 4.
- Good Will save

Maybe with the good Will save on the top it's too much, but it fitted me into the image of inquisitor. On the other hand, I didn't remove the mount completly only because 'regular' paladins exist IMC too, and I didn't want everybody to be able to discern them by the mount.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Escef 12-09-03, 07:58 PM	I would love to see a Paladin without the bonded mount ability and something in its place. I don't like a class that has an ability that forces it into a specific role like calvary. Rangers can be melee or ranged specialists, casters have spell selection, rogues have skills, fighters have feat selection. It seems to me that the least versatile classes are barbarian, paladin, and monk; and even the monk's been revised for versatility. Still, I will also admit that when the bonded mount can be used, it is powerful. The ability to move the mounts movement and still full-attack, portable higher ground bonus, possible extra attacks (the mount can fight after all), possible +2 to hit or AC (bonded mount uses aid another action). So, what bonuses could equal this? What could one replace bonded mount with without depowering or overpowering the class?
E-Vile 12-09-03, 08:03 PM	You could allow some sort of eagle familiar or something (perhaps one of the exalted arcane familiars in BoED) and outfit it for combat instead of casting. But probably nothing with an initial int higher than 3 (3+ is humanoid intelligence) or else it's akin to slavery.
A Man In Black 12-09-03, 09:08 PM	Simple. Have the paladin take Leadership and some sort of appropriate cohort, and give the mount benefits to the cohort.
RRG 12-09-03, 09:16 PM	Yeah, giving the Pally leadership for free would be a nice replacement for when the pally first gets a mount, and in place of things like bonded mount, give it a familiar and have it advance like the paladins mount would.
Escef 12-10-03, 02:47 AM	Another problem I have with the whole bonded mount thing is that the mount can become a very easily eliminated threat at higher levels, changing to a different type of animal doesn't solve that. I had been toying with the idea of a tempoary boost to AC, attacks, and hp. Akin to barbarian rage but expressed as an aura of holy power or some such. Leadership is a start on a varient, but honestly don't know how well it'd work. Replacing bonded mount with a familiar could also work to a certain degree. Or maybe to be more concise, what would you do to modify the Paladin class to allow more options, as the bonded mount ability leads the class into the calvalry role? (e.g.: holy archer, heavy infantry, devout fencer, etc.)
Morka 12-10-03, 01:30 PM	Perhaps could you replace the bounded mount by an intelligent, LG weapon?
Luminous Crayon 12-10-03, 01:51 PM	The Hero Alignment: Any Good Hit Die: d12 Skill points: 2 + Int modifier Class skills: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge (Religion), Intimidate, Jump, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Swim Level BAB Fort Reflex Will Special Qualities 1 1 2 0 2 Smite 1/day, Aura of Good 2 2 3 0 3 Divine Grace, Lay On Hands 3 3 3 1 3 Aura of Courage, Divine Health 4 4 4 1 4 Turn Undead 5 5 4 1 4 Smite 2/day 6 6/1 5 2 5 Remove Disease 1/week 7 7/2 5 2 5 8 8/3 6 2 6 9 9/4 6 3 6 Remove Disease 2/week 10 10/5 7 3 7 Smite 3/day 11 11/6/1 7 3 7 12 12/7/2 8 4 8 Remove Disease 3/week 13 13/8/3 8 4 8 14 14/9/4 9 4 9 15 15/10/5 9 5 9 Smite 4/day, Remove Disease 4/week 16 16/11/6/1 10 5 10 17 17/12/7/2 10 5 10 18 18/13/8/3 11 6 11 Remove Disease 5/week 19 19/14/9/4 11 6 11 20 20/15/10/5 12 6 12 Smite 5.day Things that have been added: Smite now affects any creature, regardless of alignment Several new class skills have been added The Code of Conduct is now gone The Will save has now been improved The hit die has been increased to d12. Things that have been cut: Detect Evil has been cut, on grounds of being too damn annoying. Special Mount has been cut, on grounds of being retarded. All spellcasting has been removed. This was my attempt to rework the paladin into a more viable class while still keeping the flavour (well, the good parts of the flavour, anyway.) Among the changes I made was the removal of that blasted horse. I changed the name from "Paladin" to "Hero" to get rid of many editions' worth of baggage the class is bogged down with, and to help get rid of the misconception that a Hero has to have any connection to a church or deity (the way many people thought a paladin had to.) I also replaced that nit-picky Code of Conduct with the simple instruction to "keep a LG alignment or lose your powers." The premise is that a Hero derives his powers from a sincere desire to protect others, and performs his amazing abilities through sheer determination.
Joseph Wolfgar 12-10-03, 05:35 PM	Well, I can see your point of the paladin class being preselected for calvary, but before changing it, consider why the mount is there. It provides a companion, a steed, and helps the paladin fit the image of the questing knight. I know my first sucsessful charecter, a paladin named Joseph Wolfgar, got out of many tricky situations with only the help of Dimitri, his dragon bonded mount. If you do decide to remove the bonded mount, consider giving the paladin a few extra feats like the fighters bonus feats (or cleric type feats), or some extra turning or laying on hands like abilites. Now he might fit the Royal Foot Knight image:fight!: Maybe even changing his race, like the Dragon Disciple in Tome and Blood, slowly into a celestial might be an option, progressing from asimar to half celestial to the full blown angel. :angel:
Luminous Crayon 12-10-03, 05:53 PM	Originally posted by Joseph Wolfgar Maybe even changing his race, like the Dragon Disciple in Tome and Blood, slowly into a celestial might be an option, progressing from asimar to half celestial to the full blown angel. :angel: Very interesting. Sounds like the paladin could be an excellent candidate for the "turn into an outsider" ability monks get at level 20; perhaps I will add this to my "hero" variant.
Lord Stigius 12-11-03, 07:59 PM	I have made a variant paladin called 'Inquisitor' in my campaign. Inquisitors are trained to fight evil spellcaster and outsiders. They get a mount, but it gets only higher intelligence and empathic bond, without all the other abilities when paladin progresses in level. Basically an intelligent and faithful mount for travels, but worthless in combat, especially at higher level. Now what the inquisitor gets: The class is focused on fighting magic users, so: - Spellcraft as a class skill - Full caster level (except first four levels, when paladins get no spells). Effective caster level = class level - 4. - A few bonus spells on class list (but no more spells per day). The most important is Dimensional Anchor on level 4. - Good Will save Maybe with the good Will save on the top it's too much, but it fitted me into the image of inquisitor. On the other hand, I didn't remove the mount completly only because 'regular' paladins exist IMC too, and I didn't want everybody to be able to discern them by the mount.