Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mark_Aged 04-08-07, 11:56 AM	Okay, a player at my table made a sorcerer. We're playing the game using only the DND Basic Game, by the way. When he rolled up his character, he got some good rolls, so he decided to make his character a powerful attacker, as mush as a spell caster. His feats were Toughness, and Martal Weapon Profiency: Great Sword. After doing the first adventure, he wanted to get something to improve his armor class, but it says, "Sorcerers can't wear any armor or shield". I think that means that you can't equip any kind of armor or shield. He says that any armor or shield will just have the Armor Check Penalty and reduce his attack rolls. Still, he didn't want to have the attack roll penalty, so he decide to get some Magic Studded Leather so that way, no Armor Check Penalty. His AC is now near tying with our level 2 fighter. That, along with his Magic Great Sword and being level 2 as well, he has more to-hit and min/max damage then our level 2 fighter. But then again, our fighter only has a long sword. So, bottom line, is the magic armor thing he's doing allowed? Reply soon, he says he going to get a magic buckler after the next adventure, and I don't want to to tell him that all the gold he spent was a waste.
Magrus 04-08-07, 12:23 PM	Yes, it's legal. You need to use the Arcane Failure percentage rules for his armor though. This will cause him to make a percentage roll everytime he casts a spell. According to my PHB, that armor has a 15% failure rate for arcane casters without class abilities that let them use armor without casting failure. So, your character rolls a percentile die roll, and if he rolls 16 or higher, he casts fine. Lower, and the spell fizzles and is wasted. Secondly...How in all hell did a 2nd level character get magic armor AND weapons? That is roughly 3500 gp worth of equipment there in it's most basic form in the studded leather and greatsword being +1 each. 2nd level characters should have roughly 900 gp worth of equipment. You are just under 4 times the recommended amount of treasure for a 2nd level character right there.
Rasmus 04-08-07, 12:27 PM	I dont know the basic rules, but in D&D first of all, he has to be proficient with the armour to wear it, otherwise he takes the check penalty to all attack rolls. Secondly there is Arcane Spell Failure on all armours, depending on their type. A studded leather armour has 15% spell failure. So every time he casts a spell there is 15% chance it will fail. Getting that buckler would increase the penalty 5% and give him an additional -1 on attack rolls.
breizh23 04-08-07, 12:28 PM	I'm not certain what the basic game includes. So let me get this straight. He's level 2 and he has a magic great sword, magic studded leather, and he's shooting for a magic buckler? When you get a chance, read up on wealth-by-level guidelines, and recommended treasure per encounter. That's all in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
Mark_Aged 04-08-07, 01:06 PM	Our group only has the DND Basic Game, nothing else. We are pooling our money to get the core rulebooks. How in all hell did a 2nd level character get magic armor AND weapons? That is roughly 3500 gp worth of equipment there in it's most basic form in the studded leather and greatsword being +1 each. 2nd level characters should have roughly 900 gp worth of equipment. You are just under 4 times the recommended amount of treasure for a 2nd level character right there. Well, the sword is a treasure you get in the DND Basic Games adventure, and there was only two PCs at that time. The amount of money you get at the and was enough to buy the magic armour.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 04-08-07, 01:15 PM	ok from the top. (I have no clue what the basic rules are, so I'll answaer the question to hte best of my ability. based on the actual rules.) The feat martial weapon profeincy requires a base attack bonus of +1. A sorcerer at level one, and 2, only has base attack bonus of +0. Thus the sorcere can not have taken that feat. Using the sword incures a -4 penalty to all attack rolls. Further more the studded leather armour incures arcane spell failure of 15%. Everytime he casts a spell roll your d%. If the result is 01-15% his fial automatically fails having no effect.
Zorminster 04-08-07, 01:18 PM	somethings amiss here. I, like everyone else, am clueless as to what is in the 'basic game' package you can buy. I don't think it contains the PHB And full DMG though. And this is where your hitting a wall. The DMG details wealth by level which you should definately check out-- Even without it though, why does the sorceror have magic gear and the fighter only has a longsword? Something is wrong right there. Secondly, if you dont have the armor proficiencies and wear the armor there IS A PENALTY. The SRD quotes: "A character who is wearing armor with which she is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride." Also don't forget the arcane spell failure- especially at low levels failing your spells can be life or death. dont forget that failing means that the spell slot is used up without any actual effects being produced. Its not like they can keep trying till they get it w/o reprecussion. Also, when he casts a spell while threatened his 'cast defensively' concentration check is at -4. failure means fizzling. learn to enjoy him whining too - he will totally regret taking toughness... theres only so many feats you get in the course of 20 levels and it simply isn't worth it. He's effectively made a permanent band-aid for a temporary problem. 3 health wont mean crap beyond level 2.
Guardian Phoenix 04-08-07, 01:25 PM	Well, the sword is a treasure you get in the DND Basic Games adventure, and there was only two PCs at that time. The amount of money you get at the and was enough to buy the magic armour. What does the other PC have then? If one has taken all the treasure then at such a low level the benefit of the treasure will outweigh the benefits of the classes.
Scion of Coldshard 04-08-07, 01:27 PM	Remember everyone, arcane spell failure only applies to spells with somatic components. If the sorcerer is casting spells with no somatic components then those spells do not have the chance of failing as arcane spell failure does not apply.
Mark_Aged 04-08-07, 01:36 PM	What does the other PC have then? If one has taken all the treasure then at such a low level the benefit of the treasure will outweigh the benefits of the classes. The other PC has just some basic items, cheap armor, but way more gold then the sorcerer. I keep telling him to buy some better equipment, but he keeps telling me that he is "Saving up".
Starman IX 04-08-07, 01:45 PM	This message has been deleted. I need to pay more attention :|
Krusk 04-08-07, 01:57 PM	The sorcerer is playing fine, as long as he spent a feat for martial weapon proficency, spent a feat for light armor proficency, and is incurring spell failure 15%. Meaning he had better be a human sorcerer, or he does not have enough feats. Also, how is he doing so much better with his hp, im consfused as to why he was not killed immediatly. at most he has 21. And thats assuming he rolled max at second level, took toughness,is a dwarf and put an 18 into con. In reality he probably has something like ~13 assuming a high con. Your fighter should have something like 19-20ish assuming a low con for a fighter.
Mark_Aged 04-08-07, 02:09 PM	Yeah, he is a human sorcerer, and has 17 HP. The fighter has 22 HP, and rolled some very low numbers.
Torack 04-08-07, 02:33 PM	Bottom line is this: - Yes it's legal. - It's a shame, but bad rolls happen. The sorcerer simply lucked out. It'll even out as the fighter gains levels and feats, ending in the fighter being better than the sorcerer at melee/ranged combat. Just enforce the Arcane Spell Failure rules.
FoxYerSox 04-08-07, 02:39 PM	o.O ok...this whole thing seems odd to me. already reading your not using the spell failure %, things are a bit odd. first, there is no way a caster should ever do more melee damage than a fighter (unless your fighter is a deffensive guy and your caster has spells that add to his damage) second, friends dont let friends take Toughness >.< its a total waste of a feat, 3 HP seems like alot for now but as you lvl you will quickly notice that become meaningless. you should ask your caster what other spells he plans on taking later on...if it things that will help him and his allys in combat then hey more power to him, but if he plans on rushing into melee and using fireball...then maybe he should rethink his choices. Overall, buy the real core books and learn that way, if i had played the basic game before playing the actual one i would have never started playing DnD there is a big diffrence.
Magrus 04-08-07, 02:45 PM	The greatsword proficiency wasn't legal to be taken at level 2. I forgot about that in my initial post. That poster above who pointed it out is right, that was an error in letting him take the feat. It sounds like the basic game...no clue whats in there to be honest....isn't doing a good job of explaining the rules, or you aren't reading them. Either way... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 go here and download the open license free stuff. Or, here: http://www.d20srd.org/ (sites been down all day. Maybe the owner is doing maintenance on the holiday. He does that regularly I think). Not everything you will need, but it's close to it for about 5 books for free. Read, absorb, rewind, edit and TA-DA you'll be good. Prepare for player whining. Welcome to being a DM. ;)
Doleth 04-08-07, 03:04 PM	Actually, there is absolutly nothing wrong with the sorcerer since he is a human sorcerer. Martial weapon profiency doesn't have any requirement, nor does toughness and while wearing a armor you are not proficient with does grant the armor penalities on many check, a masterwork studded leather armor has a penalities of 0. The only reason the sorcerer is better than the fighter is because the fighter got unlucky dice and save his money for some reason. In a couple of level, you'll notice that the fighter will be way more powerful than the sorcerer in melee combat.
Magnus_the_Mad 04-08-07, 03:39 PM	ok from the top. (I have no clue what the basic rules are, so I'll answaer the question to hte best of my ability. based on the actual rules.) I'm going to assume that by the basic game he means that he has the boxed version of D&D which includes the PHB, a short adventure and a few minis. The feat martial weapon profeincy requires a base attack bonus of +1. A sorcerer at level one, and 2, only has base attack bonus of +0. Thus the sorcere can not have taken that feat. This is incorrect information. The martial weapon feat does NOT require anything to take it. Using the sword incures a -4 penalty to all attack rolls. Not anymore since the feat is legal. Further more the studded leather armour incures arcane spell failure of 15%. Everytime he casts a spell roll your d%. If the result is 01-15% his fial automatically fails having no effect. This is correct information and very important to keep track of. The DM needs to ensure that the player is making his check anytime he is casting a spell with a somatic component.
LazarusWizardforhire 04-08-07, 04:31 PM	I feel you're pain. I started on the Basic Game 2 Christmases ago, and with only 2 players, you're sure to level up really fast. Basically, the way i solved not being able to buy the core rulebooks for several months was to kill my players accidentally.:weep: If you're stuck like i was, you could propose a new campaign, with new characters (which would buy you several weeks), kill you're characters (a horde of orcs would do), or put off the campaign. Alternatively, you could continue the campaign poorly by using monsters and such you find off the Internet-fans post pretty much an ounce of everything, and Excerpts and retired articles off of the D+D Homepage help a ton in finding cool, useful information.:)
Magrus 04-08-07, 04:58 PM	Actually, there is absolutly nothing wrong with the sorcerer since he is a human sorcerer. Martial weapon profiency doesn't have any requirement, Really? Hmm, just double checked. You're right. I must have been thinking of the Exotic Weapon proficiency, which does require a +1 BAB. Odd how that works, when you NEED to take light armor in order to get medium, and both to get heavy.
Mark_Aged 04-08-07, 09:21 PM	Okay guys, thanks alot for all the info. I'll just leave it be for now, looks like everything will be solved when we get the core rulebooks.
Nom 04-09-07, 12:33 AM	For those who are confused and haven't bothered to look up the "products" section of the D&D web site: The D&D basic game is a separate product, and can be considered "D&D very lite". It contains maps, minis, and its own set of rules, which are an very cut down version of the combat resolution rules. The game includes 4 pre-rolled level 1 PCs, that roughly follow the rules in the PH. The advanced rules include rules for level 2 PCs and add a few more of the regular rules back in. It serves a few roles: * An introduction to "dungeon crawling" D&D * A light dungeon crawling game in its own right, though with limited replay value. * A useful source for minis (including a large blue dragon :D ) and maps for regular D&D. To the OP: Your problem comes because the basic D&D rules aren't designed to be expandable, but rather as a rough introduction to the "real" D&D game. The game mechanics don't even strictly match between the two (though they are "close enough" to get a good feel for real D&D mechanics).
FeceMan 04-09-07, 04:03 PM	Your sorcerer has a gimped character. Criminy pete. Tell him never to take toughness again or actually spend feats on martial weapon/armor proficiencies.
Serrin 04-09-07, 06:00 PM	Just keep in mind that using the spells Mage Armor or Shield do not stack with regular armor and shields. You gain AC from either your equipment or from your spells that grant armor and shield bonuses, but not both.
Scion of Coldshard 04-09-07, 06:07 PM	Just keep in mind that using the spells Mage Armor or Shield do not stack with regular armor and shields. You gain AC from either your equipment or from your spells that grant armor and shield bonuses, but not both. To be more exact bonuses of the same name usually do not stack. If you have multiple sources of an armor bonus only use the highest. So if you have leather armor on and mage armor up you take the +4 from mage armor. Shield bonuses are the same. If you have the shield spell up and a buckler you get the +4 bonus from the shield spell. Just to make sure it is clear though, if you have mage armor up you can use a shield and gain its shield bonus, or if you have on leather armor you can still benefit from the shield spell. The post I am quoting could be read in a different way so I just wanted to make sure it was clear. Assuming that I made it clearer at least ;)
RetiredThief 04-09-07, 07:42 PM	First: It sounds like, since you're new to the game, you haven't applied the rules fully. There's no problem with that. We were all new to the game at some point. Second: Sounds like one player got luckier on his rolls than the other. That happens when you roll up characters rather than use a point-buy system. Again, nothing wrong with that as long as everyone's cool with the situation. Third: Sounds like the same player has gotten all the magic stuff. That CAN be ok, or it might be a sign that one player is being greedy. If the other player is biding his time and saving up for good stuff later, ok. Something to keep your eye on, though.