Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shedeo 02-22-06, 11:33 AM	Okay, here's the deal. I've got a player in a campaign I'm currently running that has blatantly exclaimed that the rest of the players are too inexperienced to keep up with his play style, and because of that, he tries to take control of the group and overshadows everybody. All the other players are playing rather general characters, which I've got no problem with. This guy is using a crapload of magical items that he himself built (we're starting at level 4, so that's 5,400 gold for these things) but he lessened the cost of each item by 30% twice, limiting it by race and by alignment. This has lead him to have many magic items that are not only unusable by the rest of the party, and are much stronger than any of the magic items that the rest of the party has available to them. As a rule, I dont kick anyone out of my games unless they are really a true problem. Despite being an arrogant rules-lawyer, I still dont seem to have enough problems with this player to remove him. I'm looking for alternate solutions to this problem that doesn't involve hurting the rest of the party. The player is playing a Cloistered Cleric 1, Paladin 2. He does not worship a deity, and instead follows a philosophy, and draws power from goodness as a whole. We're playing in FR, and normally I would not have allowed it, but as soon as he requested it, gears began ticking in the back of my head. If this guy has divine power, but is still lawful good, but does not worship a deity and channels divine power anyways. He's essentially a good Ur-Priest if you ask me. So, this lead to the conclusion that he's seen as a heretic. So, I made a bounty hunter that's going to come after him and only him, and essentially tells the rest of the party that they should stay out of his way. Just to be safe, I'm going to give him some minions. My question is, asides from the above scenario, what would be some good ways to limit this guy without causing him to remake any of his stuff, but not bothering (mostly) the rest of the party?
Firimar Elerrino 02-22-06, 11:46 AM	Anti-magic field?
Illion the Red 02-22-06, 11:49 AM	I would have disallowed the custom items to begin with, but I guess what's done is done...unless it can be undone. A few quick Improved Sunder attacks and he is suddenly back down to the real wealth-by-level guidelines like the rest of the party. But, the best way to address this is to speak with the Player privately and explain the situation. Explain that he is bending the rules (in spirit if not literally) and that it is causing issues for the rest of the party. "Perhaps we could tone down a few of those items. I want to keep this a challenge for everyone, and in order to keep it a challenge for your Character, I'm probably going to wind up killing the rest of the party. I don't think that would be fun for anyone. So, do you mind taking a step down on the power-level so that the entire party is on-par?" If the Player goes the "no way in hell!" route, follow through. Put the party up against something that is a challenge for the Character and don't hold back. If the rest of the party dies, then end the campaign and start over again - with more clear Character-building guidelines.
Elendur 02-22-06, 11:52 AM	I don't understand why a 4th level character would have custom made magic items. Is this a common thing for Forgotten Realms? If you're going to allow this type of min-maxing, you have to have to do it for your casual players yourself. In other words you have to maintain the balance as DM, either by disallowing certain power gaming things, or my buffing up your more casual players, either by mechanics or by the situation they find themselves in.
wabbit05 02-22-06, 11:54 AM	Why are you letting him design his own magic items? Or is he getting them out of a specific source book? First thing I would do is not allow that. Secondly, I wouldn't tell the rest of the players to not help the guy. The idea of the bounty hunter is really good, and lends itself to some good roleplaying opportunities, but I would allow the other PC's to help him if they want to (of course if he's being a total jerk, which it sounds like he is, they may not want to!). Some other things you can do are put the party in situations where everyone needs to work together to escape and/or get loot. Some things like traps that a rogue can only find and disarm (clerics/paladins are pretty bad at that after all) so the party can either proceed further into a dungeon or escape some horrible fate is a good idea, and so is a strong bad guy(s) that the fighter can help keep off of the problem player is another (a cleric/paladin is a good but not great meatshield). You don't even have to kill him, but a few times of being reduced to -8 h.p. because he ran off to do his own thing without party support might 'educate' him a bit and you wouldn't have to metagame too much to do it. If he still doesn't get it then yea, perhaps a character death and eventual booting might be in order.
Shedeo 02-22-06, 12:08 PM	I'm usually pretty leniant on my character creation process. Mostly because usually my players are trustworthy enough that I dont have to worry about the aforementioned problems. And for the record, no. Magic items of this power are not common in Forgotten Realms, least not for a level 4. Sunder is a good thing. His basic tactic is one of being cheap. He has enlarge person on one of his items, and weilds a bastard sword, so his reach is much larger than it normally would be. Then he takes combat reflexes and just waits for the enemies to come to him. The bounty hunter I've built uses a reach weapon (chain) so I think that basically overcomes that little problem. I've also spoken to another local dm that had booted him from his game for some of the same reasons. Then again, this is the guy that threw a fit and left one game because 28 points buy was "too low" and requested that we have a 36 point buy with all stats begining at 9 to begin with. ... But to elaborate on the bounty hunter, if his mark has travelling companions, he always just says "This has nothing to do with you, please do not get involved." he requests them to stay on the sidelines, but in case they want to get involved, I was going to give him some cronies so that it would be just a 1 on 1 fight. The Bounty Hunter is a Half Giant Scout 3, Fighter 1, but I dont intend on telling anybody that he's a half giant, he just looks like a very large, muscular human. And for the record, no, I dont think that many (if any) of the party members are going to jump to his aid.
Alamanda 02-22-06, 12:22 PM	I've got a player in a campaign I'm currently running that has blatantly exclaimed that the rest of the players are too inexperienced to keep up with his play style, and because of that, he tries to take control of the group and overshadows everybody. While other DMs addressed how to deal with the magic items, I think the overshadowing of the other players is something you need to talk privately with this player. Suggest that since he has experience to take a back seat role letting the others in the group gain experience as group leader; or assist by pointing out the page or reference for the other players to read (remind him that telling the inexperienced players the rule instead of pointing out where to find it only enables them to rely upon him instead of becoming experienced themselves). I had this problem a few months ago and let it slide thinking that when the other players became more experienced the 'control and overshadowing' would stop ... it did not. In fact it got so bad it turned into a situation of us against them with players snipping and becoming so nasty to each other I ended up kicked out the entire group. Good luck with this player Alamanda
Saxis 02-22-06, 01:18 PM	Doesn't it take quite a bit of time to create magic items?? Doesn't it take 1 day per 1,000 gp in BASE price, not his modified cost? Also, 1 day of work on it is 8 hours. How on earth does he have this much time to craft? Just don't give him any time to actually MAKE the items, and he won't have them... By the time he gets an item made that he starts at level 4, will be finished when he's level 10-12, and will be underpowered by that time. He's also burning XP, so he should eventually be lower level than the rest of the party.
Shedeo 02-22-06, 01:47 PM	He didnt actually make the items personally. At level 4, each character should have at least 5,400gp worth of equipment, magical or otherwise (and if otherwise, that's a lot of mundane stuff!) Afterwards, if I had somebody interested in item creation feats, and they wanted to make stuff, that's just grand. The equipment that they have now is basically a level 4's starting equipment. As I said earlier, I'm pretty leniant with character creation. The biggest problem with talking to him in private is that he's the biggest sore loser ever. Anytime any of the other DMs have tried to tell him "lighten up" its not really worked, because he says that its not his fault the other players cant keep up with him. He's rather impossible, but since its more rather a community session, I cant really kick him out, as he's still going to be around regardless... So I figured that I'd deal with him by playing him right back against himself. He says he's so experienced, but he's really just arrogant and knows a few tricks. He's stated that he could build a level 15 that could stomp any of the pcs in my epic campaign (level 35 at the end). Most of the party doesnt even like him that much, so I'm looking for ways to "challenge" him, but not kill him or really have the rest of the party worry about him. This is also the same guy that smote a fellow party member in another campaign (not one I ran) because he stole something. As far as I know, stealing is Chaotic, not neccessarily evil, especially if the character doing the stealing is CG and is stealing from the villain in the first place,... But I dont pretend to understand his methods, I only see what he does and make ways to limit that. I also understand what I could have done at character creation, but as Illion said, whats done is done.
Morka 02-22-06, 01:50 PM	As a rule, I dont kick anyone out of my games unless they are really a true problem. Despite being an arrogant rules-lawyer, I still dont seem to have enough problems with this player to remove him. I'm looking for alternate solutions to this problem that doesn't involve hurting the rest of the party. The player is playing a Cloistered Cleric 1, Paladin 2. He does not worship a deity, and instead follows a philosophy, and draws power from goodness as a whole. We're playing in FR, and normally I would not have allowed it, but as soon as he requested it, gears began ticking in the back of my head. So, his Caster Level is 1? The only item building feat available at Caster Level 1 is Scribe Scroll. So he can not have built all those items. Period. About the Bounty Hunter idea, I think it's a bad idea. Your player is problematic because he is in the center of the game. And now, you are building a foe only for his character? Don't you think you will simply be telling the other players: "Sit back, I'm playing only with the paladin/cloistered cleric!" It should be the reverse: you should send a bounty hunter against another PC, to have the problematic player sits back while another one is having fun. Prepare some roleplaying situations for each PC, this way, they will each have the focus. No, if you want to get rid of his character, simply tell him to adapt or quit. You said another DM kicked him out of his game for similar reason? Give him an ultimatum, and stop wasting your time with him.
Derys_the_Blade 02-22-06, 01:55 PM	My friends and I have been roleplaying for about 16 years now as a group. They're not min-maxers or munchkins, but are very powerful players. I guess you might say they're "Lawful Good" power gamers. We know our business. Quite recently, a handful of players who aren't as experienced joined our group because a few of the fellows had to bow out due to scheduling conflicts. The new players are still trying to learn the game, and because the party is chaotic at best, and mostly evil (Playing in Eberron), the characters aren't really "Helpful" to the other characters... they have loose, purpose-serving alliances. However, the new guys have been able to catch on to the speed, pacing, and seriousness of the play. Their skills have increased, and they're turning out to be rather good players. I monitor my players closely to make sure that everyone is involved, and I have at times needed to give a spur or a goad to the new players, in the vein of a mother hen, but for the most part, the transition has been rather fluid. Encourage the other players to keep playing their characters as strongly as they can, and then come down like a ton of bricks on this yahoo. A relatively inexperienced character with a lot of magic items is a sitting duck, a rube, a sucker, a mark for an experienced thief looking to make some cash. A thief, who most likely, is too professional to bother with the rest of the party, as they have little to offer him. If the powergamer whines, tell him that **** happens, and next time his character should try harder to hang on to his valuables.
Shedeo 02-22-06, 04:10 PM	Both very good points, especially about the bounty hunter, though I may be doing that just because the rest of the party wants to see him get his. He's not really that bad of a guy once you get past all the crap he throws at the dm. Other than that, I really dont have a problem. And magic items are common for early-game things for me beyond level 1, since if we'd played up to level 4, I'd have given them magic items anyways. Things of that magnitude? No, so I just have to work with what I've already got at the time being.
pres_man 02-22-06, 04:52 PM	Ah, this is one of these situations where really acting like adults is the way to solve the problem. Talk to the player one on one, explain to him that it is role as DM to make sure everyone is having fun, this includes not only him, but everyone else at the table. Then explain to him that since this is a group game, that is also his role, to make sure that everyone is having fun (himself, you, and the other players). Tell him that you as the DM messed up by allowing him to have these items (in the future, you might want to limit starting gear to only what is offered in the DMG, and don't let them spend more than 1/2 of their wealth on one item). Tell him, you need his help in correctly this mistake. Ask for suggestions that you and him could work out that he could exchange his "broken" gear for more reasonable gear. Perhaps he is called to some holy group and asked to exchange his gear for another who is going on a dangerous quest. Throw in some Angels and other good outsiders to show this is a holy issue. Make it clear that they value his "sacrifice". If the guy refuses, then explain to him that again you as the DM have to make sure the game is fun and balanced for everyone. And that this character leaves the party to go on some holy quest and he needs to make a new more balanced character. If he gets all upset, tell him, you are sorry and that you would prefer that he had handled the issue himself, but he was not willing to. The key is to make it clear that you as the DM messed up by allowing these things in the first place and that you had hoped he would work with you to fix your error, instead of forcing you to strong arm a correction. Do not target his character in game with some kind of assassin/bounty hunter or whatever, that is just stupid and will only upset him as he will be able to say, rightly so, that you are picking on him. The other real choice is to just keep hitting the group with real threats and don't pay any care who survives or who doesn't.
kraegor 02-22-06, 05:08 PM	Both very good points, especially about the bounty hunter, though I may be doing that just because the rest of the party wants to see him get his. He's not really that bad of a guy once you get past all the crap he throws at the dm. Other than that, I really dont have a problem. And magic items are common for early-game things for me beyond level 1, since if we'd played up to level 4, I'd have given them magic items anyways. Things of that magnitude? No, so I just have to work with what I've already got at the time being. Well first of all, I am not sure 100%, but I believe an Enlarge Person Wonderous Item base cost is at least 4,000gp, if you make it race/alignment specific then its reduces the cost to about 2000gp. So he should only have 1 or 2 of such items. There are several ways to counter this, Reduce Person counters Enlarge Person. Also somehow changing his race or alignment would cause the items not to work for him anymore. Also charge works awesome against someone with reach, and there are many other bad things to being large size, look it up and play his weaknesses. The first rule of starting out a game above level 1. Forbid your characters from making magical items saying they had "made them sometime in the past". Nothing but problems, character wealth assumes they have found them or where given them, not that they created them.
Arrowhen 02-22-06, 05:27 PM	He's rather impossible, but since its more rather a community session, I cant really kick him out... The hell you can't. It's your game; if someone's actions are making the game less fun for other players (and remember, you are a player, too), it's your responsibility to address the situation, up to and including tossing the offending player out. It says so right there on the cover of your DMG: "Dungeon Master". If you're unwilling to be the master of your game, step aside and allow the position to be taken up by someone who is.
Bryarr 02-22-06, 06:58 PM	Sigh. Drastic times call for drastic measures. Orc fighter2/barbarian1 (ability point in strength). Feats weapon focus (greataxe), dodge, mobility. Rage, charge the problem player, fudge a critical hit. 3d12+18. That should do it. When he rolls a new character, watch him like a hawk, and bring EVERYTHING he submits to the boards to be approved by your fellow DMs. Tell him that you were previously too lax with character creation, and that now everything will be done by RAW. Bry
Bruunwald 02-22-06, 07:32 PM	While other DMs addressed how to deal with the magic items, I think the overshadowing of the other players is something you need to talk privately with this player. Suggest that since he has experience to take a back seat role letting the others in the group gain experience as group leader; or assist by pointing out the page or reference for the other players to read (remind him that telling the inexperienced players the rule instead of pointing out where to find it only enables them to rely upon him instead of becoming experienced themselves). I had this problem a few months ago and let it slide thinking that when the other players became more experienced the 'control and overshadowing' would stop ... it did not. In fact it got so bad it turned into a situation of us against them with players snipping and becoming so nasty to each other I ended up kicked out the entire group. Good luck with this player Alamanda I'm in this camp. What you have here is basically an individual with no respect for anybody else. He belittles others and he manipulates the DM into providing him his powergame fix. That would cause me to pull him aside, if not to settle the powergaming issue, then at least to explain to him that everybody is worthy at my table and will be treated with respect. If he can't afford at least that much, then he knows where the door is. The problem will settling these things in-game is that it's hard to do it without obviously singling the player (as opposed to the character) out. You've got a scenario where this is especially obvious, in that you are planning a bounty hunter who is going to go so far as to tell the other PCs to step aside while he blows this guy away. On the other hand, I am firmly against punishing the other players by showing this guy how challenging him will kill them off. They don't deserve that, and he likely already knows and relishes this fact. No, I think this is a matter of finding out the hard way that a player is not compatible with your game and your group. It's time for an out-of-game talk, and if that doesn't work, you thank him for his time and explain to him that it is not working out. Hopefully, the long line of games he is being kicked out of will hint to him that he needs to adjust his thinking. (Should we hold our breath?)
Lincoln Hills 02-22-06, 09:30 PM	...blatantly exclaimed that the rest of the players are too inexperienced... tries to take control of the group and overshadows everybody... using a crapload of magical items that he himself built... an arrogant rules-lawyer... does not worship a deity and channels divine power anyways... It sounds to me like you're waiting for somebody here to give you permission to Big Boot this player. Well, 1) you don't need anybody's permission, and 2) Permission granted. There are all too many players of exactly this type out there, who mistake being a "good player" for being a player who has mastered the rules of the game. Why choose to spend hours every week with a self-centered jerkling?
celtredleg 02-22-06, 09:39 PM	You sound like you have 2 choices. Lose the jerk, or lose everybody else. You may bve willing to put up with him, but the rest may well bail on you soon. He sounds like he is sucking out the fun for them, so why should they keep playing a game that is no fun??
Rathis 02-22-06, 09:48 PM	You've told us about the player, about his build, about his past with other dm's, and about your plans regarding what you want to do with your campaign to keep him from overshadowing your other players. We've heard nothing about your other players... That means it's already too late. He succeeded. Either remove him or forget it as the campaign is trashed right now.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-23-06, 08:55 AM	Sigh. Drastic times call for drastic measures. Orc fighter2/barbarian1 (ability point in strength). Feats weapon focus (greataxe), dodge, mobility. Rage, charge the problem player, fudge a critical hit. 3d12+18. That should do it. When he rolls a new character, watch him like a hawk, and bring EVERYTHING he submits to the boards to be approved by your fellow DMs. Tell him that you were previously too lax with character creation, and that now everything will be done by RAW. Bry This was actually going to be one of my three sugestions. Except i was going to recomend a large creature with a mighty composite +4 Great bow (CW). (on a crit: 6d8+12) It'll have only one hit dia ofr a CR 3, and thusly be a fair chalenge for the rest of your group. Instead of what i was going to say though, becuase that has already been covered, I will say this: It is time to grow a pair. And tell him no. Seriousely it is time to say "NO!" Tell him that he is currently unbalanced from the rerst of the group and that it is time to remake his character. He will not be aloud to have custome magic items. No you don't care what the creation rules state, for costs, or whatever. No he may not have custome magic items. He may choose from items already listed in the DMG, and whatever else you are allowing. He may not spend more then 2,700 on any one given item. And he may spend no more then 5,400 total. And that that is it, end of story. If he does not like it, fine, and fair enough, the door is over there. Secondly tell him that that the over shawdoing and controlling of other characters ends right now. It will not be talerated, and if it continues he will not be invited to continue with this group. This point is not up for debate or discusiion, and again if he does not like it, he can leave. Hold to your guns, it is your job to make sure that the game is fun for all of your players. And it is high time you started to think about the rest of your group, they matter to. If you are allowing one player to dominate the game, and steal the sunlight from the other players, then you are cheating them, and failing in your role as DM. If the guy can change then great, he will change, if not, then your group is not the group for him.
Suzaku455 02-23-06, 02:22 PM	Build a trap with Mordenkainen Disjunction and have it set off, and then roll everyone's save roll. Then Fudge any dice roll as you see fit.
concerro 02-23-06, 03:33 PM	Okay, here's the deal. I've got a player in a campaign I'm currently running that has blatantly exclaimed that the rest of the players are too inexperienced to keep up with his play style, and because of that, he tries to take control of the group and overshadows everybody. All the other players are playing rather general characters, which I've got no problem with. This guy is using a crapload of magical items that he himself built (we're starting at level 4, so that's 5,400 gold for these things) but he lessened the cost of each item by 30% twice, limiting it by race and by alignment. This has lead him to have many magic items that are not only unusable by the rest of the party, and are much stronger than any of the magic items that the rest of the party has available to them. As a rule, I dont kick anyone out of my games unless they are really a true problem. Despite being an arrogant rules-lawyer, I still dont seem to have enough problems with this player to remove him. I'm looking for alternate solutions to this problem that doesn't involve hurting the rest of the party. The player is playing a Cloistered Cleric 1, Paladin 2. He does not worship a deity, and instead follows a philosophy, and draws power from goodness as a whole. We're playing in FR, and normally I would not have allowed it, but as soon as he requested it, gears began ticking in the back of my head. If this guy has divine power, but is still lawful good, but does not worship a deity and channels divine power anyways. He's essentially a good Ur-Priest if you ask me. So, this lead to the conclusion that he's seen as a heretic. So, I made a bounty hunter that's going to come after him and only him, and essentially tells the rest of the party that they should stay out of his way. Just to be safe, I'm going to give him some minions. My question is, asides from the above scenario, what would be some good ways to limit this guy without causing him to remake any of his stuff, but not bothering (mostly) the rest of the party? If you look at an item in the DMG it will tell you what spell was needed, the amount of money needed, and the caster level required for most items. Using these you can figure out how much problem player's items should cost and even though you gave him about 5000 gold it is not a lot money for magic and I dont see how he got everything at 30% off. I dont have the DMG with me but it I were to make a weapon that took an enemy's hp and give them to me I would probably need vampiric touch to make that weapon work, and you have to be a certain caster level to make magical weapons and armor and if my party did not have this person. You said you cant kick him out, but that does not mean you have to let him have his way. Just tell him what the rules are and if he chooses to leave he can leave. If he whines continue with the game. As for the items he already has, you can have them stolen while he is unconcious(method to be explained below). What one of my DM's did before every game session(new campaign) was give us a printout of character creation rules so it was clear about what should and should not be done. As a DM the players wont agree with everything you do but EVERYONE has to have fun, and right now it seems they are not. How did he get the 30% off anyway? Here is how to get rid of the magical items, have him framed and thrown in jail. Of course when the police or your equivalent come to get him he can go quietly which includes surrendering all weapons and magic items. After the items are taken let it be explained that is was a misunderstanding, but his overpowered items have disappeared. If he does not fo along quietly just keep increasing the level and/or number of the police until he is dead and when he makes character number 2 go to the DM's and find out how much it would cost to see if he is over the price limit.
Iron Kobold 02-23-06, 03:41 PM	I really don't think there's a need to kill the dude. You just have to tone him down. he's a cleric / paladin... Make an adventure that's brutal on his 'methods of play'. 1. Put him in an eclosed place/ bad idea for large person and huge sword. 2. Traps 3. Arcane Skill checks. 4. Blanace / rope use checks 5. Does he wear armor??? Make him take a swim. 6. Archers 7. Large grapplers 8. Undead need to take a vacation. You've got to get in this guys head. Examine his character sheet. Ask The other DM's what his MOP (method of play) is. And always keep him guessing. If he's a sore loser... let him lose a few times, and let him win. You have to stay in control with this type of person. Check on the other players constantly and try to do everything you can to diffuse this guy.
Thelandrach 02-23-06, 03:46 PM	Guys, he's starting with the treasure of a 4th level character. He is NOT making these items! He found this stuff, or bought it. This is straight out of the DMG. That said... I agree. He's already won. This player needs to grow up or move on. If he builds another character and wants to pick starting treasure, hand him the DMG and let him pick from pre-built stuff. There's a chart of Minor Magic Items for starting characters at the back of the book, I believe. I would also like to point out that PC's who adventure in Faerun without a patron deity can't be Raised. I'm not familiar with the Ur-priest build, if there is one, though...
Rian Lightblade 02-23-06, 04:25 PM	Most of the party doesn’t even like him that much, so I'm looking for ways to "challenge" him, but not kill him or really have the rest of the party worry about him. This is also the same guy that smote a fellow party member in another campaign (not one I ran) because he stole something. As far as I know, stealing is Chaotic, not necessarily evil, especially if the character doing the stealing is CG and is stealing from the villain in the first place,... If this is truly the case, then you shouldn't be worried about how to challenge his PC in game but rather how to deal with him as a player that is affecting the group. Frankly honesty is best thing in this case. I'd tell him, flat out, that both you and the group do not care for his gaming style and let him know what areas he needs to improve upon. Tell him that regardless of his opinion of your or the groups "ability" these changes need to be made if he wishes to continue playing with your group. Give him some time and if the changes aren't made, he's out. They are many players like this guy out there. Players who love to be disruptive and antagonistic and use the rules to protect themselves. They seem to get off on "cheating" with the rules (sometimes not within the rules) and generally being annoying and disruptive. I've found that flat out honest work best, telling them that they're a pain and that you and the group won't stand for it anymore is very effective. Most of the time they end up leaving the group, as the group can't play at "their level". As a rule, I don’t kick anyone out of my games unless they are really a true problem. Despite being an arrogant rules-lawyer, I still don’t seem to have enough problems with this player to remove him. It seems from your above statement that you do have a reason to at least address this problem before it becomes a reason to remove him, and believe me it will. Limiting or challenging his PC will, most likely, not address the underlying problem, which is the player himself. Often these types of players take these kind of actions as a personal attack against them. They often think they’re being picked on because they are a "superior" player and that you and the group are jealous of their ability. This just feeds their already bad attitude and makes things very unpleasant for everyone else. Eventually, 95% of the time, they end up getting kicked out because they refuse to change. There are some great ideas here on how to handle the PC, but in the long run you'll still have to address the player himself. Either way good luck
Steel91101 02-23-06, 05:45 PM	Of all the text posted above, this is the most salient: I've also spoken to another local dm that had booted him from his game for some of the same reasons. No matter what you do, the guy is never going to learn, never going to change, never going to realize that other players exist, never going to understand that abusing the rules is wrong. No amount of reasoning will work. He will go from game to game, abusing each until every DM in the area has kicked him out of his/her game and black-listed him. Then he will quit playing and tell everyone he knows that DnD sucks. Kick him out. Do it now.
Shedeo 02-23-06, 10:01 PM	Well, I've actually found something that he simply doesnt remember. Part of the Paladin's creed is to "Respect Legitimate Authority." We walked into a smaller city not far from Silverymoon... We were walking into a tavern (how typical, but meh, cant go wrong with the oldies) and there were two Gnomes stumbling out, drunk. He asked me if they really were stumbling out drunk. Of course, reiterating myself, I said yes. He claimed it was public drunkeness, and wished to confront them. Having just read over the paladin's creed, I said no, as there were two guards standing on duty nearby that decided it was alright, so har. Secondly, the player hasn't won yet. All is not lost, that's for certain. He wasn't so bad this last time, but I've already set things in motion why its not going to be me singling him out with an npc- he's going to single the npc out. He plays a super rightious holyman. And when I mean super rightious, I mean it. He said, in the above situation, that he would be sitting about 20 feet from the door, using detect evil on every person that came in. Also, he said that if he detected anybody that was evil when we walked into the bar, that he would confront them. I merely shrugged and told him that there was nobody that was evil. Now, I'm not exactly sure what the rules are on detect evil offhand (I dont have my books on me) but he seems to believe that it will detect anything that has a harmful intent. Such as a deck of many things, for example. One previous dm decided that he was going to confront the party with this artifact. This player (again, also playing a paladin) claimed that detect evil would work on any cards that would have a harmful effect. I dunno about that. Anyways, as I said, things are actually begining to work out. As I was saying, instead of having the npc seek him out, I decided that due to some misinterpretation, this bounty hunter mercenary has a 100,000gp bounty on his head, and is wanted for thievery, murder, etc. Now here's my question. This bounty hunter will be monitoring the posting for bounties. Once the paladin (being the holyman that he is) goes after this wanted criminal, here's a problem. The bounty hunter, evidently knowing that he's going to be working with the paladin at one point (this is a campaign plot device) will eventually be going after him. The bounty hunter is actually true neutral, but he'll have "harmful intent" towards this paladin. Other than that, he's gotten better, which is an up-plus, as I've talked to him one-on-one. He's keeping the items, but I've asked him to stop being so overbearing. The funny thing is,... I think he's got an item that somehow allows him to use Enlarge at will... An item that allows him to use enlarge, that I'm fine with. But at will? I call for a high-level rogue, that I do. Oh, and just because he's gotten better, doesnt mean I'm not going to take my suspicions and eyes off him for a instant. Because of his previous actions,... Yeah. I'm not going to let up, but because of our last session, I'm willing to give him another chance.
concerro 02-23-06, 10:28 PM	Well, I've actually found something that he simply doesnt remember. Part of the Paladin's creed is to "Respect Legitimate Authority." We walked into a smaller city not far from Silverymoon... We were walking into a tavern (how typical, but meh, cant go wrong with the oldies) and there were two Gnomes stumbling out, drunk. He asked me if they really were stumbling out drunk. Of course, reiterating myself, I said yes. He claimed it was public drunkeness, and wished to confront them. Having just read over the paladin's creed, I said no, as there were two guards standing on duty nearby that decided it was alright, so har. Secondly, the player hasn't won yet. All is not lost, that's for certain. He wasn't so bad this last time, but I've already set things in motion why its not going to be me singling him out with an npc- he's going to single the npc out. He plays a super rightious holyman. And when I mean super rightious, I mean it. He said, in the above situation, that he would be sitting about 20 feet from the door, using detect evil on every person that came in. Also, he said that if he detected anybody that was evil when we walked into the bar, that he would confront them. I merely shrugged and told him that there was nobody that was evil. Now, I'm not exactly sure what the rules are on detect evil offhand (I dont have my books on me) but he seems to believe that it will detect anything that has a harmful intent. Such as a deck of many things, for example. One previous dm decided that he was going to confront the party with this artifact. This player (again, also playing a paladin) claimed that detect evil would work on any cards that would have a harmful effect. I dunno about that. Anyways, as I said, things are actually begining to work out. As I was saying, instead of having the npc seek him out, I decided that due to some misinterpretation, this bounty hunter mercenary has a 100,000gp bounty on his head, and is wanted for thievery, murder, etc. Now here's my question. This bounty hunter will be monitoring the posting for bounties. Once the paladin (being the holyman that he is) goes after this wanted criminal, here's a problem. The bounty hunter, evidently knowing that he's going to be working with the paladin at one point (this is a campaign plot device) will eventually be going after him. The bounty hunter is actually true neutral, but he'll have "harmful intent" towards this paladin. Other than that, he's gotten better, which is an up-plus, as I've talked to him one-on-one. He's keeping the items, but I've asked him to stop being so overbearing. The funny thing is,... I think he's got an item that somehow allows him to use Enlarge at will... An item that allows him to use enlarge, that I'm fine with. But at will? I call for a high-level rogue, that I do. Oh, and just because he's gotten better, doesnt mean I'm not going to take my suspicions and eyes off him for a instant. Because of his previous actions,... Yeah. I'm not going to let up, but because of our last session, I'm willing to give him another chance. How did he get an item that does enlarge at will without the DM knowing about it? Does that mean he can get ring of endless wishes and no one will know how he got it. Im being serious. Did he have someone make it for him? Did he make it? I know its not a conventional item. If I knew how he was getting these items I could tell you how to stop it.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-23-06, 11:21 PM	Well, I've actually found something that he simply doesnt remember. Part of the Paladin's creed is to "Respect Legitimate Authority." We walked into a smaller city not far from Silverymoon... We were walking into a tavern (how typical, but meh, cant go wrong with the oldies) and there were two Gnomes stumbling out, drunk. He asked me if they really were stumbling out drunk. Of course, reiterating myself, I said yes. He claimed it was public drunkeness, and wished to confront them. Having just read over the paladin's creed, I said no, as there were two guards standing on duty nearby that decided it was alright, so har. You do have that right, except the grey begins at legitimate. The evil baron who just conqued a nation is not considered legitimate. However the NE rightful King is. The next time he tries something like that, let him. Acosting Gnomes is niether lawful, nor good. Regardless of how drunk they are. As long as they aren't causing any harm there isn't much he can do about it. Secondly, the player hasn't won yet. All is not lost, that's for certain. He wasn't so bad this last time, but I've already set things in motion why its not going to be me singling him out with an npc- he's going to single the npc out. He plays a super rightious holyman. And when I mean super rightious, I mean it. He said, in the above situation, that he would be sitting about 20 feet from the door, using detect evil on every person that came in. Also, he said that if he detected anybody that was evil when we walked into the bar, that he would confront them. I merely shrugged and told him that there was nobody that was evil. Its time to test his knowledge of the alignment system methinks. The next time he does something like this have him detect evil. In fact next time your in the market place and he decides to use his detect evil, have him detect someone. Meet Aron the N/E shop keep. He swindles his customers when he can. He has one burning ambition in life in and that is to collect more money. He is a greedy hartless bastard. However he generally will not break the law, and is too cowardly to do anyone any real harm. Aron, Human male Commoner 1 Init: +1 Senses: Spot/listen +1 Languages: Common AC: 11 (+1 Dex) touch 11, flat footed 10 HP: d4+0 (3) Fort: +0 Ref: +1 Will: +1 Speed: 30ft Melee: dagger +0 (d4+0/19-20/X2) Ranged: N/A Base attack: +0/+0 Atk options: none Combat gear: N/A Abilities: Str 10, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14 SQ: N/A Feats: alertness Skills: Knowledge nature +5, Craft pipes +5, Diplomacy +6 Possessions: Daggers, and a few gold Mr Pally will confort him. Aron will tell him to F*** off. The player at this point will have a few options. Leave Aron alone, or attack, or watch him. If he leaves him alone, Aron really hasn't done anything wrong, he passes, for now. If he does what I think he will, witch is draw his sword and smite Aron into next week, he then becomes guilty of murder. Not only that but he has just willfully committed an evil act. And, I'm not sure about your campiagn worlds but murder isn't smiled apon in mine. Bang he loses his paladin powers, the gards arrest him. Becuase he did this in public there are plenty of witnesses, he is found guilty, and executed. Or he may decide to fallow and watch Aron. Aron will notice and get the gards to have him back off. If he refuses then he loses his powers for failing to be lawful. Also have the gards beat him and run him out of town. Remember the instant he hurts anyone with out just cuase, fails to be lawful, and/or violates his code, by the RAW he loses his powers. Now, I'm not exactly sure what the rules are on detect evil offhand (I dont have my books on me) but he seems to believe that it will detect anything that has a harmful intent. Such as a deck of many things, for example. One previous dm decided that he was going to confront the party with this artifact. This player (again, also playing a paladin) claimed that detect evil would work on any cards that would have a harmful effect. I dunno about that. Detect Evil level Clr 1 Components: V,S,DF Casting time: 1 standard action Range 60ft Area: Cone shaped emanation Duration: Concentration, up to 10min/level (D) Saving through: none SR: No you can sense the presence of evil. The amount of imformation revealed depends on how long you study aparticualr area or subject. 1st round:Presence or absence of evil. 2nd round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil arua present. If you are of good alignment and the evil auras is overwelming (see below), and the HD or level of the auras source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. 3rd round: The power and the location of each aura. If an aura is outside of your line of sight, then you disern its direction but not its exact location. Aura Power: An evil aura's power depends on the type of of evil creature or the object that you're detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the of a cleric) class level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more then one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two. For example, as indicated on the table, an evil outsider with 12 HD has an overwelming aura of evil. A good cleric who casts this spell and directs it at the location of such a creature for longer then 1 round loses the spell and is stunned for 1 round if his level is 6 or lower. <Incert previousely mentioned table.> Lingering aura: An evil aura lingers afterits orginal source dissipate (in the case of a spell) or or is destroyed (in the case a creature or item). If detect evil cast and directed at such a location, the spell indactes an arua strentgh of dim (or even weaker then a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power: <Incert chart> Animals, traps, poison, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them. Each round, you can turn to detect evilin a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. After reveiwing the spell, i bolded the parts that let the water out of his arguement. Detect evil only detects evil. thats it, it will tell him nothing about intent, nor anything else, just evil. It will not detect anyone who is anything but an evil alignment, and it will only detect an object that is magically evilly aligned. Anyways, as I said, things are actually begining to work out. As I was saying, instead of having the npc seek him out, I decided that due to some misinterpretation, this bounty hunter mercenary has a 100,000gp bounty on his head, and is wanted for thievery, murder, etc. Now here's my question. This bounty hunter will be monitoring the posting for bounties. Once the paladin (being the holyman that he is) goes after this wanted criminal, here's a problem. The bounty hunter, evidently knowing that he's going to be working with the paladin at one point (this is a campaign plot device) will eventually be going after him. The bounty hunter is actually true neutral, but he'll have "harmful intent" towards this paladin. No as i stated earily his arguement about detect evil is flawed, and not sapported by the RAW. Your bounty hunter will not be detected by his detect evil abilty. Other than that, he's gotten better, which is an up-plus, as I've talked to him one-on-one. He's keeping the items, but I've asked him to stop being so overbearing. The funny thing is,... I think he's got an item that somehow allows him to use Enlarge at will... An item that allows him to use enlarge, that I'm fine with. But at will? I would not allow something like that. Way to strong, the more and more I hear about this guy the more he soundth like a munchkin. I'd smite him right out the door. Oh, and just because he's gotten better, doesnt mean I'm not going to take my suspicions and eyes off him for a instant. Because of his previous actions,... Yeah. I'm not going to let up, but because of our last session, I'm willing to give him another chance. Don't take your eyes off him, and do not trust him. Look up everything he does, and audit his character sheet. In fact post it here and lets us do it.
Mitchell 02-24-06, 06:43 AM	Build a trap with Mordenkainen Disjunction and have it set off, and then roll everyone's save roll. Then Fudge any dice roll as you see fit. That was my first thought, but then I think "Why bother"? Get him away from the other players before he rubs off on them. Bring them up in the spirit of the rules and create a fun game with players who don't know any better. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but sometimes there is just a certain "magic" with new players. These characters may be fondly remembered years from now if they spend any time with them, but not if all they hear is how bad they are. They may well decide that they don't like the game (when in reality they just don't like the player). Just because someone can minmax doesn't mean that they should, and it certainly doesn't make them a good player. Sure, a little minmaxxing is fine, maybe even necessary, since one can argue that putting a wizards highest stat into intelligence is minmaxxing, but this guy went above and beyond the call of duty. It's going to be up to you. You aren't guilt-free in this whole mess, but you do have the power to clean it up. Offering them a second chance is up to you and generous on your part, but this player doesn't sound like they are going to peacefully coexist with your other players anyway, even if you give them a sub-par character to play.
Burner2501 02-24-06, 07:02 AM	He has enlarge person on one of his items, and weilds a bastard sword, so his reach is much larger than it normally would be. Then he takes combat reflexes and just waits for the enemies to come to him. The bounty hunter I've built uses a reach weapon (chain) so I think that basically overcomes that little problem. Why does the bounty hunter even have to get that close? Think more along the lines of a sniper. ;)
Dag 02-24-06, 07:56 AM	I don't see the point in trying to kill him. It doesn't solve the problem of the way he plays, it just forces him to make a new character and even if this new character is built in the way you want his attitude is still going to be condescending toward the other characters and selfish in regards to his own playing time and his new character's role in the campaign. You have to talk to him, not just pointing out what the problem with him is, but letting him know that he will be gone if these problems don't change. I've had to do this with a player once and when he was finally gone I realized how much fun I was NOT having while he was there. The game became very enjoyable again once he was gone. I've had the beginnings of the problem concerning the item creation. When the player pointed out to me how he was making stuff for his specific alignment at a reduced rate I let him know that something like that has a large potential to be abused. I said I have little problem with it if it's something truly specific or geared toward his alignment or faith (Since this guy was a cleric) but if I saw it being abused I would do something about it. I never had to do anything about it because he kept it in check. To deal with this problem and not kill this player's character you can remember that creation method when arming your monsters and the party's opponents. Wont this guy be annoyed when the party takes down a psycho yet precise orc masterly wielding a glowing bastard sword and then finds out that the sword is only usable by orcs...? I'd load the game with such weapons. If a PC can take advantage of this rule so can NPCs, and wouldn't a greedy, selfish NPC be more likely than a LG paladin to make items that only he can use? Let him know that he's the standard you're judging it by...If a LG paladin is this greedy than my evil people will have to be three times as greedy. It's also a good way to catch the other players up to him magically. Placing items specific to the weaker characters' race or alignment, thusly preventing him from taking or winning the item away from them. The guy should get the point...Keep interrupting his opportunities to craft his new stuff, and keep denying him new magic by placing these restrictions on everything you find. Once he realizes what's going on (And you should make it plainly obvious what is going on) then he may get in line - if not, well then at least you're getting the best of him without having to kill him off. Another option my brother uses against people who cheats in his game: The party will be attacked by a group of orcs (Or some monster suitable to their level) and with these orcs happens to be one ogre. The ogre ignores everyone but the cheating player - If a player is making himself more powerful than the others in unscrupulous ways then he will draw more powerful opponents. Anyways, I think the best option is to get rid of him, do away with all the stress and with all the hassles he creates for you and the others playing. But if you're reluctant to do that then maybe some of these other methods will work. Good luck to you.
DracoPhoenix 02-24-06, 08:21 AM	Here's my 2 cents: 1) How will the others get better without making their own mistakes? (Out of game chat) 2) I think that discount only applies once, and that 30% is the upper (read generous) discount. race specific might get say 5-10%, alignment specific again another 5-10%. All of which is DM discretion. Not PCs (no, not even the artificer :) 3) check the campain setting - does it allow for a cleric of generic good? (Eberron does - but thats because you "worship" all the good guys). Also, only allow him LG domains (could even be nasty and say "good" and "law" domains :) - if he's generic good then the Gods can deny him access to their domains. 4) check dmg non lvl 1 char gen - the wealth limit has a limit on how much can be spent on what (e.g no 1 item more than X% of the wealth, only X on magic items (plural) 5) make the hunter pun pun (ok, this was the gag choice :) 6) his powers are LG - how does his char play? Would be a real shame if he was more NG, then he'd lose a load of magic spells & items. LG can be a royal one to play. something about not accepting rewards etc... (impose VoP :) 7) You could also award xp bonuses to the others for coming up with their own solutions (or just beating the other guy to it) 8) force the other guy to take the leadership feat, 9) when directing the others, make the appropriate skill checks (dip, cha etc). Ok, most of the above is more like dm's take on the rules takes priority over the player. 1) is explain to him you don't mind him helping when they're really in a pickle, but not to assume they can't look after themselves. Or more specifically let them learn. Yes they will make mistakes, but mistakes have been know to be a great accellerant on learning curves. Oh, and a death (convient as possible to avoid foul play calls) might knock him down a peg or two (-1 lvl to the rest of the party) Hope this helps Edit Ummm, by any chance did he have the appropriate craft item feats? otherwise did he pay full rate for the items? (And I'm guessing getting someone else to craft a non standard item would probably cost more due to the custom order)
scott644 02-24-06, 09:19 AM	I'm in this camp. What you have here is basically an individual with no respect for anybody else. He belittles others and he manipulates the DM into providing him his powergame fix. Powergame? By the description I saw, I read "munchkin" myself, using the letter of the rules to violate their intent. Further, it is a benchmark standard in ALL cooperative group events, the best and most experienced do NOT try to lord it over their other participants or even tell them how to go about it. Rather, they tone down the obvious effect of what they are doing and simply contribute to the overall experience - making it a better situation for everybody else. Guys, he's starting with the treasure of a 4th level character. He is NOT making these items! He found this stuff, or bought it. This is straight out of the DMG. I agree completely. They're starting out as adventurers, so up to the creation point they should have been somewhat generic (read; no special items). Well, I've actually found something that he simply doesnt remember. Part of the Paladin's creed is to "Respect Legitimate Authority." Make it a primarily urban adventure, and watch his skin crawl every time he watches evil beings walking in front of the good dieties' temples unmolested. Or every time he witnesses some minor crime the town watch/guard has the option to handle, and is present to see, but chooses to leave be. As for standing in front of a tavern door and scanning everything that comes and goes? How long does it take to walk up to and enter a door (noncombat)? A few seconds at most. How long does it take to identify individual sources of evil? Two rounds of concentration, or twelve seconds. He simply would not have enough time. Not to mention it's a spell-like ability, which means he'd have a third round trying to activate the blamed sense. Now, how quickly does an individual open a door and walk off? A round at most? Further, if they move to one side or the other they've moved out of his cone of detection and he has to change orientation and concentrate for two more rounds. If they keep walking (stupid to assume they would not), his cone would have to be continuously reset, all the while he's walking on a city street while concentrating on the spell, making himself a huge target for both the local thieves and the Watch. Now, as to Enlarge at will? Make it 10 rounds throughout the entire day (like those boots that give Haste benefits), and you'll have something fair.
Shedeo 02-24-06, 02:35 PM	Well, the problem I have with the player, is that were he to see an evil event happening before him, even if the town watch isnt doing anything about it, he'll go up and handle it himself. That's the way his character is. I thought about if he did that, the guards might take offense. He's a holyman, not a police officer, and he's not carrying a writ from anybody that allows him to go after criminals while on a certain town's ground. Another situation I'd thought of was the low-level LE ruler of a small village. He cares greatly for his village, but is vile and nasty to anybody else. The paladin would undoubtedly use detect evil on him, and probably confront him. I'm contemplating if I'm going to tell them if he's the king or not or whatever. Anyways, I'm counting on the paladin challenging him, fighting him, and killing him. Or at least even attacking him. Regardless, he'd be disregarding legit authority. Therein, he's broken his code, and loses his powers. Thing is, I'm not doing this to be nasty, because it would actually prove to be an interesting story. The heretic looking for somebody to restore his powers. Regardless, then all he'd really have is the magic items. I'm going to keep a close eye on him. Funny thing is that my other players just dont listen to him when he tries to take command. They're more concerned with what's really important: Having fun. This guy's just concerned with "winning."
meshon 02-24-06, 03:07 PM	Kill the character, but don't ressurrect him. Reincarnate him. Odds are his race-specific magic items will not be useable anymore.
wonlee76 02-24-06, 03:54 PM	If this was at the very beginning of a campaign and some player presented me a sheet with custom magical items with restrictions on the items to reduce the cost of the items I would have done the following (and presuming for whatever reason, I didn't say no to the PC to begin with): #1: Let the rest of the group in on this "trick" so they too could reap the benefits of discounted magical items. #2: Every single magical item that they find on a bad guy will have similar restrictions (down to the potions that these baddies carry) which not only reduces the value of the item in an open market (if there even is a market), but also would provide treasure that is unusable by the group. #3: No magic shops or restricted magical shops depending on the city you're in. Basically, if a PC is "smart" enough to get the most mileage out of hisgold by putting in class/alignment restrictions on magical item, the bad guys should be as equally intelligent in doing so. The whole group will eventually just sob when every single item they come across ends up being useable only by goblins/orcs/hobgoblins/lawful/evil/neutral/druids/clerics etc. It sounds like its too late to reject the character so maybe implement the magical treasure rule. "Yes, that +1 longsword you just found can only be used by lawful evil followers of Bane." or some similar nonsensical restriction on the item.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-24-06, 07:48 PM	Another situation I'd thought of was the low-level LE ruler of a small village. He cares greatly for his village, but is vile and nasty to anybody else. The paladin would undoubtedly use detect evil on him, and probably confront him. I'm contemplating if I'm going to tell them if he's the king or not or whatever. Anyways, I'm counting on the paladin challenging him, fighting him, and killing him. Or at least even attacking him. Regardless, he'd be disregarding legit authority. Therein, he's broken his code, and loses his powers. Thing is, I'm not doing this to be nasty, because it would actually prove to be an interesting story. The heretic looking for somebody to restore his powers. Regardless, then all he'd really have is the magic items. Se enow your thinking..... And not nessiarily for the magic items. They are keyed to his being lawful good right? Well if he smites a town ruler without provokation, then he is neither lawful nor good. He no longer meets the prerequisites for using the items.
Shedeo 02-25-06, 02:15 PM	The thing is, I havent decided which thing I want to happen first- the bounty hunter, or the LE town leader. Either one, however, is sort of only a meager, small part of the story. What I want to do is something dealing with a large number of Orcs or some other type of evilish creature making some huge military or force. I hadn't quite decided yet, but I almost know it will be orcs, as that's our Ranger's favored enemy, so it will give him a bit more fun. That, and nobody's really going to disagree with blasting Orcs.