Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DMaster42 04-10-06, 03:13 PM	I have just caught wind of a plan in my group of players that they are going to try to thawrt or not take any of my plot hooks. I'm at a loss for what to do. Should I plan for every possible outcome? Should I improv every little plot hook? Should I punish the players? Should I try to beat them at their own game, if so, how?
Illion the Red 04-10-06, 03:26 PM	I really doubt that they will follow through with that "evil plot to ignore your plot hooks" but if they do, try this: Place your plot-hooks in-front of them as normal. If they don't bite at any of them (have a good half-a-dozen), shrug your shoulders, take out a character sheet, and start rolling up a character of your own. When they ask you what you are doing, respond: "I'm rolling up a character for the next campaign. I used up all the plotlines I had for this one, so which one of you is going to run the next one?"
Azezel 04-10-06, 03:34 PM	What exactly did you do to upset your players? If the answer is 'nothing' then your players are 'orrid little scrags and don't deserve a DM - otherwise, try to rectify it before the next session. Otherwise, Friend Illion has a sound suggestion - let your players see that it isn't all fun and games on this side of the screen - and they'll be more inclined to co-operate. This is a co-operative game and it may help to subtly remind them of this.
EternalZzyx 04-10-06, 03:36 PM	well, its their loss if they dont bite, of course there are methords to force them into the game, but this is not really all that fair, or fun. this mindset will not last, and if it does, suggest they find a game more sutable for their idea of fun. or just do what Illion said, make them do some work...
IcebergTitanic 04-10-06, 03:40 PM	If they don't want to do anything, and just sit around, then ask them how much money they have. Every 30 seconds or so, make a "kaching" sound, and deduct enough money for food and lodging from their savings. If they have a profession, they can roll a profession check to earn money, as per the book. See if they feel like RP'ing a "real life" game, and when they get bored, they can come play. Strangely enough, there's not much XP involved with going to work every day, eating dinner, and going to bed.
Capt. Pixel 04-10-06, 03:42 PM	You could do what I do ..... Have them make up their own plot hooks. You should try this. It's not as absurd as it sounds. It's reasonably easy to maintain DM control, and the players 'buy-in' since it's their own ideas that are being utilized in the story line. Let it run free and see where the story takes you (all, DM and Players alike) I use this often as I find it hard to constantly develop plot lines for two on-going games that I'm running currently. I still establish random and set-piece encounters. I just move them in front of the PCs at random times and let them deal with them as they will (run, fight, parlay, weep in fear, etc.) :cool:
revnk 04-10-06, 03:44 PM	Talk to them. Don't put on a show. Just talk to them. Is the problem that they're bored? Are they just jerking you around? Does someone else want to DM? Do they just want you to quit their circle? Do they want to play something else? You cannot make them do anything. You're not, I assume, their parent or guardian. Punishing them in-game for out-of-game behavior never solves anything. You may or may not like their answer (they may not like you for some reason), but at least you'll know. The solution may be as simple as offering different plot hooks or stepping aside while someone else DMs. If they're just yanking your chain and playing a prank, be prepared to improvise. Good luck.
Chobemaster 04-10-06, 03:48 PM	*shrug* You present the world. if they want to ignore it, that's their perrogative as PC's. Don't take it upon yourself to pull them through your preconceived plots. But understand why they're acting this way. Do they feel railroaded? Are the plot hooks too cliche? Do they not care for the sorts of adventures you tend to design?
SureFoot 04-10-06, 03:48 PM	Having read only what you've written, the players who are "planning" this sound like childish, mean-spirited prats. I'm assuming that there's something good about them which would deter you from simply walking away from the gaming table (which is what I would do if my players were deliberately trying to make my life miserable)?
kelvinaw273 04-10-06, 04:43 PM	Well ... if they ignore the hooks, let them hang around a while. If they are not going to stop the drow before they attack the village the PCs are in, then the drow will attack. In force. Oh dear.
DMaster42 04-10-06, 06:02 PM	These two players are also DMs that I play with and they feel that my DMing isn't up to scratch, too... straight off my notes, but I do give them plenty of choices. It's not like it's my or the highway. They say they say want to put me to the test. See if I can DM as well as they can. I think it's cruell and unusual personally.
revnk 04-10-06, 07:48 PM	These two players are also DMs that I play with and they feel that my DMing isn't up to scratch, too... straight off my notes, but I do give them plenty of choices. It's not like it's my or the highway. They say they say want to put me to the test. See if I can DM as well as they can. I think it's cruell and unusual personally. That's not a test. It's a childish power play. Well, if they want to do that, and you're willing to put up with it: bait the hooks and wait. If they go wandering off to do something else, you can improvise. If they try to wreck an adventure, let them and allow them to suffer the consequences (they don't get paid, they fail to accomplish anything that grants full experience, the local police come after them, they make the local crime boss angry, whatever). If they sit and do nothing, then you sit and do nothing. Hell, bring a book with you, if necessary. No sense in giving them the satisfaction of sweating or breaking down in tears or whatever they expect you to do when they play badly. Are they your friends, or not? Do they want to give you a chance to improve your DMing through practice, or not? Do they want to have fun playing a game, or just in trying to take an immature, sadistic little thrill by ruining your day. By the way, for whatever it's worth (and I'm sure it's not much), feel free to show them this post and to invite them to PM me if there's some part of "childish power play" or "immature, sadistic little thrill" they don't understand.
Vharuck 04-10-06, 08:05 PM	I agree, what they're planning is juvenile at best and downright insulting most likely. But you want a plot hook they can't ignore? How about a marauding band of ogres enslaves the town in which they're staying, hoping to build a monstrous empire. The PCs are captured (don't just say "They getcha!" Actually have combat but their opponents are attempting to subdue and capture them) and must at least escape with their lives if not save the entire town--nay, THE WORLD!
BW0222 04-10-06, 08:35 PM	DMaster42, As others have said, just talk to them. revnk is dead on. No big fuss, just "Ok, what don't you like about the game?" In the end, it is like inviting someone over for dinner and then hearing that they don't want to eat. First, you ask them what the issue is? Are there some foods they don't like, they hate your dog, you haven't put out the garbage in six weeks, etc.? However, if they are honestly being idiots then there isn't anything you can do. You can try to be a smart ass and make them see the concequences of their decisions -- i.e. eat in front of them. However, why waste your time? If folks aren't going to enjoy the meal, then invite other folks over who will. D&D is a social game. If you don't wish to play, fine. Stay home. However, don't waste people's time by coming out to play and then not playing.
celtredleg 04-10-06, 09:07 PM	Not only would I not take thier test, I most likely would drop out of thier games as well. If they are your friends, then this is a jerk thing to do. If they are not your friends, then they are probably not worth hanging out with. Fibnd other players. I would not be surprised that they have players ready to bail out on them if this is how they like to treat people.
mlund 04-10-06, 09:34 PM	You need to find out the "why" of this and then address it openly and honestly. If they don't want you to DM anymore, you'll have to deal with that. If they want to try something else in the campaign, you'll have to deal with that too. The entire table has to be on the same page in terms of group goals to really get things clicking. It looks like you're not all on the same page right now. - Marty Lund
Swarms 04-10-06, 09:35 PM	pull out the hammer gun aim high
Ongorth 04-11-06, 01:14 AM	And to think I thought the mark of good DMing was setting the table for an enjoyable session. I forgot the part about having the deal with people specifically trying the sabotage your game. Mostly because anyone who would want to do that sort of thing is a bad player and thus (as a good group with a good DM) would not be in the game in the first place. You don't need theatrics (though I know I'd use them). You just have to call them on their noobishness. They want to waste a session worth of time for you and the other players, which is certainly lame. Really, if they need to make a conscious OOC effort to not take your hooks, it would seem to me that you're making good hooks. GOOD WORK SOLDIER!
Tytalus 04-11-06, 02:11 AM	Whow, there's been some bad advice given here. Let me advise against a confrontational approach. Talking is a good idea, especially if you feel unfairly treated. Personally, however, I wouldn't worry too much about it. If they don't pick up on plot hooks, I'd just DM some time in the city for them. Sure, it wouldn't be too exciting, but it was their decision to ignore the king's call for explorers, the brutal murder of the old herb woman, and the desperate dwarven wizard. Face it: you make the world, they can interact with it - if they want. Should they not, the king will likely hire someone else, the herb woman's dark secret will not be revealed, and the dwarven wizard will die trying to recover his lost apprentice alone. I'd aruge it's much better to just not let much happen than to force-feed them anything (railroading), or to "punish them" with a drow invasion (as suggested above). If they want to play, they'll come around.
MarkB 04-11-06, 05:01 AM	I have just caught wind of a plan in my group of players that they are going to try to thawrt or not take any of my plot hooks. I'm at a loss for what to do. Should I plan for every possible outcome? Should I improv every little plot hook? Should I punish the players? Should I try to beat them at their own game, if so, how? If there's some serious reason why they don't want to follow your plots, then as others have said, you need to address the root of the problem, which will likely mean actually talking to them out-of-game. If, on the other hand, this is just some light-hearted kidding around, then by all means go along with it. The best way to beat them at their own game is simple: Don't give them any hooks to ignore. Present their current locale realistically, let them take the lead in what their characters do, and just make their current town/village/open wilderness utterly devoid of mysterious strangers, invading hordes, terrible prophecies, or kidnapped daughters. Chances are, one of them will blink first and try to start something, and at that point just let them get into whatever trouble they choose to - soon enough, they'll limit their own options, need some help getting out of whatever mess they get into, and you'll have them hooked.
Zog_Jakome 04-11-06, 05:13 AM	that will get boring real quick. it undermines the game. what is the point of playing the game if you are not going to take any plot hooks?
The Phantom Flan Flinger 04-11-06, 07:51 AM	Is there any possibility that, rightly or wrongly, they might perceive you as acting like this in their games? I say this because I have a fellow player for whom, if he ever DM's, I will take great pleasure in rolling up a character whose lowest score is in his class's primary stat, who has at least one mental illness and at least one personality trait or unbreakable moral standard that goes against what D&D's about (e.g. "won't learn offensive spells" or "is scared of combat") and who insults all the NPC's, rejects all the plot hooks, and whose motivation is "what's the stupidest, most attention-seeking response that I could possibly have to the situation I'm in?" Just to see how much fun he thinks it is when it's not him doing it. *sighs* No, I wouldn't really. But I'd like to. Anyway. The previous responses contain some very good advice. I just wanted to cover all the bases. Me, if they were my friends and meant it nicely, I'd treat it as a challenge. If they meant it nastily, I'd talk to them about what the real problem was and what I needed to do about it. If they weren't my friends I'd just not turn up to the session, instead sending a note with a list of plot hooks for them to have fun crossing out one by one, and then I'd find another group.
DMaster42 04-11-06, 08:36 AM	Is there any possibility that, rightly or wrongly, they might perceive you as acting like this in their games? I don't think so. I'm usually the type of player who goes with pretty much every plotline the DM throws at me. Maybe that's wrong to them. I don't think it is. I like to follow plotlines because it propels the game forward.
SiouLubb 04-11-06, 08:52 AM	You need to find out the "why" of this and then address it openly and honestly. If they don't want you to DM anymore, you'll have to deal with that. If they want to try something else in the campaign, you'll have to deal with that too. The entire table has to be on the same page in terms of group goals to really get things clicking. It looks like you're not all on the same page right now. - Marty Lund Seconded. You do need to talk to them and find out where this is coming from. A number of people have suggested that they may simply be twits, and that is a valid theory. Another possibility is that they think you are railroading them in your plots and hooks. I can't say, not knowing them, but it's worth asking. One discussion thread you might want to open is "So, what is it your characters want to do? is there something in your history that you want to resolve, something you want to start, what?" and let them reply. Email is the best forum for this, replied to all, because it allows people time to think and records what they say (instead of you trying to remember/write down what they say). If they come up with nothing and still insist on their little game, then F'em. If they do give you a laundry list, they have to give it to you ahead of time.It is patently unfair to expect you to make up everything on the spot, especially if it is based on their ideas. Some of my best adventures as a player and a s GM have been based on what Players wanted to do. Ask them and see!
Andorxor 04-11-06, 09:04 AM	They can't call it a fair test when they sabotage you.
SureFoot 04-11-06, 09:15 AM	These two players are also DMs that I play with and they feel that my DMing isn't up to scratch, too... straight off my notes, but I do give them plenty of choices. It's not like it's my or the highway. They say they say want to put me to the test. See if I can DM as well as they can. I think it's cruell and unusual personally. Those of you who are saying stuff like "previous advice is harsh/bad" need to reread this post right here. I think it's laudible and admirable in 90% of the cases to talk stuff out, particularly if you don't know why someone is acting like a jerk-face. But in this case, if DMaster42 is to be believed (and his story certainly sounds credible to me), these two do, in fact, seem to be world class chumps. *This* is how you *help* someone learn to be a DM--or anything else, for that matter? Uh-uh. Rather than offering co-DMing/observation, or even simply suggesting ways to improve and then offering to play "normally" to practice, they're going to sabotage his game and see how he handles it? They deserve a boot to the head, with prejeduce. However . . . I would think about whether you actually like these people, and perhaps talk to them first. Suggest to them that their method of teaching is counter-productive and mean-spirited (I've got a degree in teaching, so trust me, I'm right), and you'd prefer them to actually *help* you improve your DMing rather than punnish you for making the attempt. (never mind the fact that friends don't treat each other like that) But I'd give them this ONE chance to actually help you. If they don't, well then . . . you've got 2 middle fingers, one for each of them. And you've got two feet, one for a kick in the junk each. Then wash your hands of them, and rejoice that you are no longer weighed down by stupid-arse prats like these.
mojorooks 04-11-06, 09:19 AM	If you were a bad DM, they wouldn't be playing. But there they are, that proves you are doing a good enough job. One person in my group was DMing for a while and none of us were happy with her style. She did TOO much controlling. She told a good story, but when it came to changing something, she couldn't do it. I felt like it didn't matter what I did, I would still win every battle. I brought it up to her, but it didn't make a difference. Eventually I started DMing and invited everyone to my table. Eventually, I will probably let her give it another go. I am not very good DM myself, but I have found that each time I stop for a while, become a PC and start again, I get better and gain a little more confidence. You may need a break if you have been going for awhile. Or maybe they are just jerks. If they have a problem with you, they should discuss it with you or give you a chance. Try using material they aren't familiar with. Use baddies they don't know, or change the current ones so they don't know what they are up against (Trolls that don't have fire vulnerability for example). Make it YOUR world, not just a variation of theirs.
DMaster42 04-11-06, 03:14 PM	Try using material they aren't familiar with. Use baddies they don't know, or change the current ones so they don't know what they are up against (Trolls that don't have fire vulnerability for example). Make it YOUR world, not just a variation of theirs. I am actually using material they don't know for this one. Neither of them know very much about the world I'm using, Ravenloft. Both of them know A LOT about the game (they both know more than me actually), and they like to express their knowledge (*cough* rules lawyers *cough*). Many times this ends up in arguement. I realize that they have lots of knowledge and many more books than I do, but the rules lawyer stuff and now this stupid "test"... it gets to me.
Illion the Red 04-11-06, 03:33 PM	I am actually using material they don't know for this one. Neither of them know very much about the world I'm using, Ravenloft. Both of them know A LOT about the game (they both know more than me actually), and they like to express their knowledge (*cough* rules lawyers *cough*). Many times this ends up in arguement. I realize that they have lots of knowledge and many more books than I do, but the rules lawyer stuff and now this stupid "test"... it gets to me. Perhaps, you might want to take every NPC they are going to fight to the Char Opt boards just to make sure that they get smacked around by something that is "legal and obscene" at the same time. That should give the rules lawyers some pause.
DMaster42 04-11-06, 03:44 PM	Perhaps, you might want to take every NPC they are going to fight to the Char Opt boards just to make sure that they get smacked around by something that is "legal and obscene" at the same time. That should give the rules lawyers some pause. Wow... I never thought of that... that's a good idea. I think I will. Thanks.
jasper 04-11-06, 03:57 PM	Rules lawyers forget the dm is the judge of a rule call. They make their case YOU decide and the game moves on. Now you will make bad calls. Apolozie move on and if they still being goobers they not your friends but scum you hang with.
kelvinaw273 04-11-06, 04:01 PM	So they won't take your plot hooks because you use your notes all the time? They want to see how well you can wing it? Ooookaaay, then you need to wing it, and wing it good. Have something happen that they cannot ignore.
DMaster42 04-11-06, 04:21 PM	So they won't take your plot hooks because you use your notes all the time? They want to see how well you can wing it? Ooookaaay, then you need to wing it, and wing it good. Have something happen that they cannot ignore. I wing it more than they give me credit for, I think, but that may be just me. I'm trying to come up with ways to make them follow the plot hooks. I just wish they wouldn't try to test me. It's blatantly obvious that it will hurt the campaign.
Finarin Panjoro 04-11-06, 04:32 PM	May I suggest that if they've pre-determined not to accept your plot hooks then have the plot-hooks accept them. For example, first adventure: you provide several plot-hooks, they accept none of them. Have them all make a spot check. Those who succeed may act in the surprise round when they are attacked by a group of rogues (1 per player). This is a very difficult encounter at 1st-level (4 rogues would be CR 4). If they don't take the bait to try and find out why someone wants them dead. Then it happens again only add an extra rogue. If this continues have it happen again, but replace two rogues with a 2nd level wizard who buffs or supports them before the attack, and so on. It should eventually become clear that the attacks are escalating faster than they are advancing in level (though if they survive they will be advancing quickly as these are tough encounters). If they don't decide to investigate then eventually they'll lose and die. Here entereth the plot hooks. Instead of presenting a bunch of them for them to pick up present a bunch of them that they desperately need to pursue in order to survive. If they care about the game at all they'll bite. If not kill them off, it will be their own fault. Additionally this may bring pressure from other players who don't want their characters to get killed. You will need a good reason why the assassin's are after the players however (a prophecy, a holy war against one player's church, an unknown family connection, etc).
Arrowhen 04-11-06, 05:11 PM	I realize that they have lots of knowledge and many more books than I do, but the rules lawyer stuff and now this stupid "test"... it gets to me. As well it should. My advice is to find some grownups to play with.
DMaster42 04-11-06, 06:53 PM	May I suggest that if they've pre-determined not to accept your plot hooks then have the plot-hooks accept them. For example, first adventure: you provide several plot-hooks, they accept none of them. Have them all make a spot check. Those who succeed may act in the surprise round when they are attacked by a group of rogues (1 per player). This is a very difficult encounter at 1st-level (4 rogues would be CR 4). If they don't take the bait to try and find out why someone wants them dead. Then it happens again only add an extra rogue. If this continues have it happen again, but replace two rogues with a 2nd level wizard who buffs or supports them before the attack, and so on. It should eventually become clear that the attacks are escalating faster than they are advancing in level (though if they survive they will be advancing quickly as these are tough encounters). If they don't decide to investigate then eventually they'll lose and die. Here entereth the plot hooks. Instead of presenting a bunch of them for them to pick up present a bunch of them that they desperately need to pursue in order to survive. If they care about the game at all they'll bite. If not kill them off, it will be their own fault. Additionally this may bring pressure from other players who don't want their characters to get killed. You will need a good reason why the assassin's are after the players however (a prophecy, a holy war against one player's church, an unknown family connection, etc). That might work.
DMaster42 04-11-06, 07:30 PM	Rules lawyers forget the dm is the judge of a rule call. They make their case YOU decide and the game moves on. Now you will make bad calls. Apolozie move on and if they still being goobers they not your friends but scum you hang with. Yes they forget that very often, and they try to put me on the spot so all around they are disrupting the game, in my opinion if it has any merit.
DMaster42 04-12-06, 03:06 PM	They insist on doing this whole thing so... I'm just going to have to have beat them at their own game I guess. Maybe they'll respond to plot hooks that apply to their characters personally. Only the world is pretty poor and one of them won't do anything unless he's payed in full beforehand. :hoppingma
Illion the Red 04-12-06, 04:20 PM	They insist on doing this whole thing so... I'm just going to have to have beat them at their own game I guess. Maybe they'll respond to plot hooks that apply to their characters personally. Only the world is pretty poor and one of them won't do anything unless he's payed in full beforehand. :hoppingma So, pay the guy a ton of money to do something...with fake coins. Now THAT is a plot hook I'm sure he won't fail to follow-up on.
DMaster42 04-12-06, 04:49 PM	So, pay the guy a ton of money to do something...with fake coins. Now THAT is a plot hook I'm sure he won't fail to follow-up on. I can't believe I didn't think of that... Thanks. :plotting: :evillaugh
Radijs 04-12-06, 06:29 PM	I've read this thread from start to finish and I've seem some good advice, some bad advice and some really horrible advice. From your replies OP I'm kind guessing you're really ****** off at this and you've got good reason to be ******. But ask yourself this question seriously: Will putting your players against these impossible things & all sorts of dirty tricks going to solve your problem? My guess is that it wont. The only real option here is (god I sound like a teen movie special) is to tell them that you're ****** because of what they did and then look for a solution you will all profit from.
Red_Ninja 04-14-06, 03:49 PM	DMaster42- more ideas to help "beat them at their on game" - prepare a few encounters of "law enforcement" (guards led by a paladin, a troop of knights, bounty hunters, rival adventurers that acts as knights errant for the local lord, etc) just in case they run afoul of the law (which is probable). - prepare evil NPCs thatwill see the PCs as rivals to be eliminated! You can build them as regular BBEG's but just make their secondary goal the erradication of the PCs. This has to be manifested in direct attacks becuase the group will obviously ingore any "so the evil knight kidnapped your brother" plot hook - prepare some random monsters just appear and attack the town (like Bullettes, umber hulks, purple worms, etc) you could explain why these critters are popping up to attack, but that would involve the plot! Really though- though "beating them at their own game" sees like the way to go (and the way they want you to go) I'm not sure what it will accomplish. If you "fail" and they exhaust your series of random attacks that are never explained or investigated, then you have earned disdain and continued scorn. If you "succeed" and slay their characters you'll have wasted a whole (or multiple) session doing so. if you manage to get them into a plot hook that they don't immediately abandon, you'll have probably face the same problem for the duration of the adventure/campaign, and have to constantly be on the lookout for "derailing" attempts... LAST THOUGHT! If you have ever watched cube (or hypercube) you could base a dungeon adventure on that concept. you create a "1 shot" adventure where their characters are trapped in a strange demiplane that is strewn with traps and monsters in a strange maze like dungeon. Every 1 hour, certain areas of the dungeon fold in on themselves, obliterating the occupants of the folded rooms (folding a room takes 4 rounds, plenty of time for creatures to escape the process). Even if the PCs just sit in the starting area, eventually creatures from other "folding rooms" will be herded to their area, and finally their room will fold with them in it. After the adventure, if the PCs complain that it was an impossible death trap, show them your notes detailing how PCs could easily escape with time to spare... if they get up and move around!