A portable hole for low-levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

A portable hole for low-levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Amused Frog
10-29-05, 07:02 AM I'm toying with the idea of giving my party (Five people, level two at the moment) a portable hole. Not immediately, but towards the end of level four. I'll count the twenty-thousand gold piece cost between all of them, thus it will work out at four thousand gold pieces each. Going by the wealth guidelines, this leaves them over five thousand gold pieces for the rest of their equipment. Enough for magical arms and armour, as well as a few potions, wands, and other non-expensive miscellanea.

The party consists of a Fighter, a Paladin, a Two-weapon fighting focussed Ranger, a Wizard and a Rogue. When combined, they players can be quite imaginative, but I am aware of the restrictions of a portable hole so there'll be no placing it on a wall and firing through.

Anyway, the point of this is to ask for your opinions on whether this is a good idea at their level, or if it will be over-powered/useless for them.

EDIT: A synonym of breast is filtered, so "***-bits" became "miscellanea"
Prophet Pax
10-29-05, 07:34 AM A portable hole is one of the most useful items in the game to a party. They basically dont have to worry about having enough food (it can hold all they will need and then some more), the party wont ever have to leave treasure of any kind behind (assuming they clean it out again att eh end of an adventure), oversized treasure that wasnt meant to be taken (like a two thousand pound gold statue that is "simple too heavy too carry out of a dungeon" but was put in for flavor) can be toppled into the hole, and if used properly the characters never have to worry about carrying medium loads or heavier. My group of 7th and 8th level characters dont even have one. They have a pair of bags of holding. Start small with a Bag of holding 1.
Amused Frog
10-29-05, 07:50 AM I hadn't thought of it like that, even though not to seems silly now. I was looking at it more from a tactical standpoint. Thank you for bringing that point to light. I haven't totally abandoned the idea for the moment, but it's certainly less likely I'll include one.

Thank you for your input.
olshanski_home
10-29-05, 08:17 AM portable hole is far too useful.
Most parties I DM actually save up to buy bags of holding... it becomes an important investment for them.

I typically look at the value of an object, compare it to the expected individual player wealth per level. I add one level to the average character, divide the wealth in half, and that is the absolute maximum of what item gets handed out.
For example, if the party is 5th level, then I look at page 135 of the DMG and see that a 6th level person should have 13,000 gp in treasure. I make sure that I don't give out any single item worth more than 6,500 gp. That means that a 5th level party doesn't get +2 weapons or belt of strength+4, but the could get a piece of +2 armor or belt of strength+2.
Prophet Pax
10-29-05, 08:18 AM One other thing...

The last time I checked a level 2 character should only start with 900 gold. Even if you pool their wealth that gives them only 4500 gold. Check page 135 in the DMG for the chart. The way I read it your giving them 4th level starting gold.
olshanski_home
10-29-05, 08:32 AM EDIT: A synonym of breast is filtered, so "***-bits" became "miscellanea"
Why would you need a synonym of breast? Since you have enough command of the language to know what a synonym is, why wouldn't you just use:
tidbit
n. A choice morsel, as of gossip or food: “The book is chock-full of colorful tidbits about theater and theater people” (Alec Guinness).
Amused Frog
10-29-05, 09:22 AM Thank you all for pointing out the numerous flaws in my plan. I have decided against it and feel thoroughly humiliated to boot.

Prophet Pax, I was going to give it to them towards the end of fourth level so that it would push them up into the guidelines for fifth.

Olshanksi_home, I can't think of a witty retort to your comment, so I'm going to sit in the corner and sulk.
Prophet Pax
10-29-05, 09:43 AM its no problem and you shouldnt feel humiliated at all. I havnt known a DM who hasnt blundered by giving their group an overpowered item too early. Just be thankful you didnt go through with it and then have to think of a way to remove the item from the group. When I first started DMing twenty...a number of years ago ;) I can recall several major blunders on my part that totally skewed the dynamic of the party. I find that with 3.5 rules a DM has to be even more careful. Giving a party member an item than is even slightly more powerful can unbalance the game.

just ignore Olshanksi_home, he didnt have anything of substance to add to the topic of the thread.
olshanski_home
10-29-05, 02:26 PM just ignore Olshanksi_home, he didnt have anything of substance to add to the topic of the thread.I think my first post, post number 4, is one of the best pieces of advice I've ever offered. I often had trouble figuring out when people should get a +3 weapon, or whether it was fair to hand out an Ioun stone, or things like that. My formula works extremely well for establishing balanced games with appropriate wealth levels.

As far as my second post, (post number 6), I was perhaps slightly condescending, but the poster must have struggled with "tidbit" enough to correct the filtering, so I thought I'd just point out that a correct spelling avoids any problems with filters.

As far as bad advice... I could read clearly that the OP's characters are 2nd level now, but he wasn't going to give them the hole until they were nearly 5th level. He made that clear in the first post. The two posts that said he was calculating wealth wrong for 2nd level people have nothing to do with the portable hole.
rbrt_Spade
10-29-05, 02:32 PM i have never heard of this magic idem, what book is it in?
olshanski_home
10-29-05, 02:39 PM The portable hole has been around since AD&D.
It is in the core dungeon master's guide.

Portable Hole: A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains.
The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process.
Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, plane shift; Price 20,000 gp.
rbrt_Spade
10-29-05, 02:47 PM thanks :)
Prophet Pax
10-29-05, 03:26 PM I think my first post, post number 4, is one of the best pieces of advice I've ever offered. I often had trouble figuring out when people should get a +3 weapon, or whether it was fair to hand out an Ioun stone, or things like that. My formula works extremely well for establishing balanced games with appropriate wealth levels.

As far as my second post, (post number 6), I was perhaps slightly condescending, but the poster must have struggled with "tidbit" enough to correct the filtering, so I thought I'd just point out that a correct spelling avoids any problems with filters.

As far as bad advice... I could read clearly that the OP's characters are 2nd level now, but he wasn't going to give them the hole until they were nearly 5th level. He made that clear in the first post. The two posts that said he was calculating wealth wrong for 2nd level people have nothing to do with the portable hole.

You got me on one point there. I didnt look to see if you had made any other posts in the thread. I figured it was just another person dropping by for yet another uncalled for put down. Which, your comment, in and of itself was.

Anyway, it doesnt matter now because the DM clearly has what they came for now...
Amused Frog
10-29-05, 04:42 PM You got me on one point there. I didnt look to see if you had made any other posts in the thread. I figured it was just another person dropping by for yet another uncalled for put down. Which, your comment, in and of itself was.

Anyway, it doesnt matter now because the DM clearly has what they came for now...

Yes, I always get what I want, by fair means or foul.

Anyway, thanks for all your advice, and I didn't take olshanski's comments to heart. Either he was trying to help and is a sarcastic, bitter, jaded shell of a human being (;)) or he's a troll, but judging by his first post I'd go with the former.

Thank you for defending my honour though, Prophet Pax, you have my favour.
Horatio Hornblower
10-29-05, 05:11 PM A Bag of Holding can carry a lot, but the best item for convenience is a Heward's Handy Haversack (DMG pg 259). It's a magical backpack with three compartments that act like a Bag of Holding and can carry a total of 120 pounds. The bag only weighs 5 pounds.

The best part is when the wearer reaches for an item it is always on top. There's no searching so retrieving an item is a move action without an AoO.

It doesn't carry as much as a Bag of Holding, but at 2000 gp it's cheaper than one.
SwitchUK
10-29-05, 05:36 PM EDIT: A synonym of breast is filtered, so "***-bits" became "miscellanea"

I believe the term you may be looking for is, in fact, "tid-bits". it's pronounced differently to how it's spelt.

"Miscellanea", however, is an excellent substitute.

As for the matter at hand - go for it. I can't think of a good reason not to.
Slumber Hulk
10-29-05, 05:54 PM A portable hole has a thousand uses. But players don't always care or know this.

I gave one party such an item and they sold it for cash to buy other things. They got magic/silver weapons of course, spoiling the fear my vampire npc was causing. This taught me the lesson that when giving an item consider what else they could barter for it with.
Mighty Ranter
10-29-05, 05:56 PM What I've always thought of doing was combining the portable and the bag of holding effect, stick it on an arrown in a clever way, launch the arrow at a target at least 30ft. away, a you get an instant portal to suck all your enemies up! :D
MarkB
10-29-05, 08:14 PM What I've always thought of doing was combining the portable and the bag of holding effect, stick it on an arrown in a clever way, launch the arrow at a target at least 30ft. away, a you get an instant portal to suck all your enemies up! :D
It's doable, if you're quick and lucky.

Step 1: Cast a targeted Dispel Magic on a portable hole (it helps if the caster created the portable hole, so he can auto-succeed on his dispel check).

Step 2: Place the temporarily-deactivated portable hole inside a bag of holding.

Step 3: Throw the bag of holding (weighted with stones tied to the outside if necessary) as an improvised weapon.

Step 4: Run away.

The tricky part is that if you rolled a 1 on the 1d4 rounds of suppression given by the Dispel Magic, it wears off somewhere between steps 2 and 3. To avoid this, have a second person standing by to throw the bag after the first one carries out steps 1 and 2.
TJMHPH
10-29-05, 09:01 PM I would not reccomend it.

I had a DM who gave us a spinning top draw a 20 diameter circle on the floor place the top inside it. spin it and treasure inside was teleported back to a secure chamber in a main city of operation. secured by the king.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amused Frog 10-29-05, 07:02 AM	I'm toying with the idea of giving my party (Five people, level two at the moment) a portable hole. Not immediately, but towards the end of level four. I'll count the twenty-thousand gold piece cost between all of them, thus it will work out at four thousand gold pieces each. Going by the wealth guidelines, this leaves them over five thousand gold pieces for the rest of their equipment. Enough for magical arms and armour, as well as a few potions, wands, and other non-expensive miscellanea. The party consists of a Fighter, a Paladin, a Two-weapon fighting focussed Ranger, a Wizard and a Rogue. When combined, they players can be quite imaginative, but I am aware of the restrictions of a portable hole so there'll be no placing it on a wall and firing through. Anyway, the point of this is to ask for your opinions on whether this is a good idea at their level, or if it will be over-powered/useless for them. EDIT: A synonym of breast is filtered, so "***-bits" became "miscellanea"
Prophet Pax 10-29-05, 07:34 AM	A portable hole is one of the most useful items in the game to a party. They basically dont have to worry about having enough food (it can hold all they will need and then some more), the party wont ever have to leave treasure of any kind behind (assuming they clean it out again att eh end of an adventure), oversized treasure that wasnt meant to be taken (like a two thousand pound gold statue that is "simple too heavy too carry out of a dungeon" but was put in for flavor) can be toppled into the hole, and if used properly the characters never have to worry about carrying medium loads or heavier. My group of 7th and 8th level characters dont even have one. They have a pair of bags of holding. Start small with a Bag of holding 1.
Amused Frog 10-29-05, 07:50 AM	I hadn't thought of it like that, even though not to seems silly now. I was looking at it more from a tactical standpoint. Thank you for bringing that point to light. I haven't totally abandoned the idea for the moment, but it's certainly less likely I'll include one. Thank you for your input.
olshanski_home 10-29-05, 08:17 AM	portable hole is far too useful. Most parties I DM actually save up to buy bags of holding... it becomes an important investment for them. I typically look at the value of an object, compare it to the expected individual player wealth per level. I add one level to the average character, divide the wealth in half, and that is the absolute maximum of what item gets handed out. For example, if the party is 5th level, then I look at page 135 of the DMG and see that a 6th level person should have 13,000 gp in treasure. I make sure that I don't give out any single item worth more than 6,500 gp. That means that a 5th level party doesn't get +2 weapons or belt of strength+4, but the could get a piece of +2 armor or belt of strength+2.
Prophet Pax 10-29-05, 08:18 AM	One other thing... The last time I checked a level 2 character should only start with 900 gold. Even if you pool their wealth that gives them only 4500 gold. Check page 135 in the DMG for the chart. The way I read it your giving them 4th level starting gold.
olshanski_home 10-29-05, 08:32 AM	EDIT: A synonym of breast is filtered, so "***-bits" became "miscellanea" Why would you need a synonym of breast? Since you have enough command of the language to know what a synonym is, why wouldn't you just use: tidbit n. A choice morsel, as of gossip or food: “The book is chock-full of colorful tidbits about theater and theater people” (Alec Guinness).
Amused Frog 10-29-05, 09:22 AM	Thank you all for pointing out the numerous flaws in my plan. I have decided against it and feel thoroughly humiliated to boot. Prophet Pax, I was going to give it to them towards the end of fourth level so that it would push them up into the guidelines for fifth. Olshanksi_home, I can't think of a witty retort to your comment, so I'm going to sit in the corner and sulk.
Prophet Pax 10-29-05, 09:43 AM	its no problem and you shouldnt feel humiliated at all. I havnt known a DM who hasnt blundered by giving their group an overpowered item too early. Just be thankful you didnt go through with it and then have to think of a way to remove the item from the group. When I first started DMing twenty...a number of years ago ;) I can recall several major blunders on my part that totally skewed the dynamic of the party. I find that with 3.5 rules a DM has to be even more careful. Giving a party member an item than is even slightly more powerful can unbalance the game. just ignore Olshanksi_home, he didnt have anything of substance to add to the topic of the thread.
olshanski_home 10-29-05, 02:26 PM	just ignore Olshanksi_home, he didnt have anything of substance to add to the topic of the thread.I think my first post, post number 4, is one of the best pieces of advice I've ever offered. I often had trouble figuring out when people should get a +3 weapon, or whether it was fair to hand out an Ioun stone, or things like that. My formula works extremely well for establishing balanced games with appropriate wealth levels. As far as my second post, (post number 6), I was perhaps slightly condescending, but the poster must have struggled with "tidbit" enough to correct the filtering, so I thought I'd just point out that a correct spelling avoids any problems with filters. As far as bad advice... I could read clearly that the OP's characters are 2nd level now, but he wasn't going to give them the hole until they were nearly 5th level. He made that clear in the first post. The two posts that said he was calculating wealth wrong for 2nd level people have nothing to do with the portable hole.
rbrt_Spade 10-29-05, 02:32 PM	i have never heard of this magic idem, what book is it in?
olshanski_home 10-29-05, 02:39 PM	The portable hole has been around since AD&D. It is in the core dungeon master's guide. Portable Hole: A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains. The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process. Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, plane shift; Price 20,000 gp.
rbrt_Spade 10-29-05, 02:47 PM	thanks :)
Prophet Pax 10-29-05, 03:26 PM	I think my first post, post number 4, is one of the best pieces of advice I've ever offered. I often had trouble figuring out when people should get a +3 weapon, or whether it was fair to hand out an Ioun stone, or things like that. My formula works extremely well for establishing balanced games with appropriate wealth levels. As far as my second post, (post number 6), I was perhaps slightly condescending, but the poster must have struggled with "tidbit" enough to correct the filtering, so I thought I'd just point out that a correct spelling avoids any problems with filters. As far as bad advice... I could read clearly that the OP's characters are 2nd level now, but he wasn't going to give them the hole until they were nearly 5th level. He made that clear in the first post. The two posts that said he was calculating wealth wrong for 2nd level people have nothing to do with the portable hole. You got me on one point there. I didnt look to see if you had made any other posts in the thread. I figured it was just another person dropping by for yet another uncalled for put down. Which, your comment, in and of itself was. Anyway, it doesnt matter now because the DM clearly has what they came for now...
Amused Frog 10-29-05, 04:42 PM	You got me on one point there. I didnt look to see if you had made any other posts in the thread. I figured it was just another person dropping by for yet another uncalled for put down. Which, your comment, in and of itself was. Anyway, it doesnt matter now because the DM clearly has what they came for now... Yes, I always get what I want, by fair means or foul. Anyway, thanks for all your advice, and I didn't take olshanski's comments to heart. Either he was trying to help and is a sarcastic, bitter, jaded shell of a human being (;)) or he's a troll, but judging by his first post I'd go with the former. Thank you for defending my honour though, Prophet Pax, you have my favour.
Horatio Hornblower 10-29-05, 05:11 PM	A Bag of Holding can carry a lot, but the best item for convenience is a Heward's Handy Haversack (DMG pg 259). It's a magical backpack with three compartments that act like a Bag of Holding and can carry a total of 120 pounds. The bag only weighs 5 pounds. The best part is when the wearer reaches for an item it is always on top. There's no searching so retrieving an item is a move action without an AoO. It doesn't carry as much as a Bag of Holding, but at 2000 gp it's cheaper than one.
SwitchUK 10-29-05, 05:36 PM	EDIT: A synonym of breast is filtered, so "***-bits" became "miscellanea" I believe the term you may be looking for is, in fact, "tid-bits". it's pronounced differently to how it's spelt. "Miscellanea", however, is an excellent substitute. As for the matter at hand - go for it. I can't think of a good reason not to.
Slumber Hulk 10-29-05, 05:54 PM	A portable hole has a thousand uses. But players don't always care or know this. I gave one party such an item and they sold it for cash to buy other things. They got magic/silver weapons of course, spoiling the fear my vampire npc was causing. This taught me the lesson that when giving an item consider what else they could barter for it with.
Mighty Ranter 10-29-05, 05:56 PM	What I've always thought of doing was combining the portable and the bag of holding effect, stick it on an arrown in a clever way, launch the arrow at a target at least 30ft. away, a you get an instant portal to suck all your enemies up! :D
MarkB 10-29-05, 08:14 PM	What I've always thought of doing was combining the portable and the bag of holding effect, stick it on an arrown in a clever way, launch the arrow at a target at least 30ft. away, a you get an instant portal to suck all your enemies up! :D It's doable, if you're quick and lucky. Step 1: Cast a targeted Dispel Magic on a portable hole (it helps if the caster created the portable hole, so he can auto-succeed on his dispel check). Step 2: Place the temporarily-deactivated portable hole inside a bag of holding. Step 3: Throw the bag of holding (weighted with stones tied to the outside if necessary) as an improvised weapon. Step 4: Run away. The tricky part is that if you rolled a 1 on the 1d4 rounds of suppression given by the Dispel Magic, it wears off somewhere between steps 2 and 3. To avoid this, have a second person standing by to throw the bag after the first one carries out steps 1 and 2.
TJMHPH 10-29-05, 09:01 PM	I would not reccomend it. I had a DM who gave us a spinning top draw a 20 diameter circle on the floor place the top inside it. spin it and treasure inside was teleported back to a secure chamber in a main city of operation. secured by the king.