Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Forgedwar 09-11-06, 07:22 PM	I have a player who previously was a out of d&d classs that beat all the rest, I made him change it so now he is a monk. I would like to know if some of the following things are true. 1. He used trip on a orc that was 3 1/2 feet taller then him who probaly weighed twice as much as him, then said he had 3 attacks from fury of blows ( he is level 2 ) he said that he could quo degrace him but I didnt let him so he hit him and said he got pluses to hit 3 attacks and did 1d6 +2 and said that the orc didnt have time to move so he loses his dex bonus to his AC I know I should havce made some calls, but I havent looked at the monk classs or trip so any comments would help.
Seerow 09-11-06, 07:27 PM	It -is- possible for a 2nd level character to have three attacks. If he had Two Weapon Fighting as his first level feat, he would have 3 attacks, all at -4 from his base attack bonus. 1d6+2 sounds right for damage. It's possible to trip any size creature, that was legal. If he was a small creature though, as you imply, he has a -4 to trip attempts. You can't Coup De Grace a prone creature, they have to be completely helpless, so that was a flat lie. More information about the character and the orc in question would be helpful. Edit: Out of curiosity, what class was he before you made him play a monk?
Crimson_Concerto 09-11-06, 07:30 PM	1) Yes, it is possible for the PC to trip the Orc, but if I recall correctly, the Orc is Large size, so it gets a +4 bonus to the opposed check to avoid getting tripped in the first place. EDIT: Lord Varos has pointed out that Orcs are Medium size. My mistake. 2) No, he does not have 3 more attacks from flurry of blows. He has 1 more. The first was the trip (unless he had imp trip, which he probably did or else he would have provoked an attack of opportunity, in which case he could take an extra at the same bonus as the trip was at, meaning two more attacks, assuming the trip was made on the first attacl), and the second would be another attack. I forget how TWF pops in here, but I'm doubting he had that. 3) Coup De Garce is a full-round action that can only be taken against a helpless opponent, so you were correct in disallowing it. 4) Prone characters DO NOT lose their DEX bonus to AC. They take a penalty (I think it's -2?) to AC, but that is all.
Lord_Varos 09-11-06, 07:31 PM	Orcs are Medium. Improved Trip allows a bonus attack.
Seerow 09-11-06, 07:37 PM	Improved Trip is only attainable at first level with a Human if you're a monk. Which is clearly not 3.5 feet shorter than an orc. I'm assuming the character was a halfling monk (the OP doesn't seem to have specified a race for the character, not sure where Crimson got Half-orc from unless I'm blind) Side Note: Stoutheart Halfling is a possibility, but I doubt that's what it is. If the player is lying to his DM about being able to CDG a prone enemy, he likely doesn't even know what a Stoutheart halfling IS.
zapogee 09-11-06, 07:42 PM	1. He used trip on a orc that was 3 1/2 feet taller then him who probaly weighed twice as much as him, then said he had 3 attacks from fury of blows ( he is level 2 ) he said that he could quo degrace him but I didnt let him so he hit him and said he got pluses to hit 3 attacks and did 1d6 +2 and said that the orc didnt have time to move so he loses his dex bonus to his AC I know I should havce made some calls, but I havent looked at the monk classs or trip so any comments would help. 1. You can trip any size opponent. Larger size opponents get a bonus to to thier str or dex check of +4 for each sixe catagory (but an orc is medium, so no modifier unless PC is small) 2. He has 2 attacks from flurry of blows at 2nd level (both at -1 to hit) 3. Coup de grace requires the victim to be helpless and takes a full round - and you only get the one attack. 4. Assuming the orc was helpless PCs get a +4 melee bonus to hit, yes. 5. Again, helpless means a dex of 0 (-5). Nothing about "time to move" involved, but certainly no dex bonus to AC. I'm gessing the orc wasent helpless, anyway. Sounds like your player knows just enough to be dangerous but may often be wrong. Read the combat section carefully and make sure to read all about monks. Might try disallowing anything outside of the core rule books without your permission just to make sure you have the opportunity to understand what the players are doing.
Crimson_Concerto 09-11-06, 07:47 PM	Improved Trip is only attainable at first level with a Human if you're a monk. Which is clearly not 3.5 feet shorter than an orc. I'm assuming the character was a halfling monk (the OP doesn't seem to have specified a race for the character, not sure where Crimson got Half-orc from unless I'm blind) Whoops, I could have sworn I saw... nevermind. My mistake, I guess. Anyways, you are correct, it'd be very difficult for said monk to have Imp. Trip by level 2, so the Orc would have gotten an attack of opportunity, and the PC would not have been allowed an extra hit after the trip, meaning he has only one extra attack after the trip. EDIT: On that note, if he DOES have Imp. Trip, he cannot have TWF, and thus cannot have 3 attacks after that trip.
makeshiftwings 09-11-06, 07:48 PM	I think the important thing here is that you told him to play a monk and let him take Improved Trip without ever bothering to read the Monk entry or the rules about tripping. Honestly, if you're that unwilling to read the rules, you probably shouldn't be DMing, at least not for someone who likes to create powerful characters.
Seerow 09-11-06, 08:00 PM	Honestly, we don't even know that he HAS improved trip. Though it makes no sense at all to be tripping someone if you don't have it, it is possible. We know that he is a small creature, or the OP misjudged the Orc's size. I honestly have no idea why any optimizer would be trying to trip as a monk who's SMALL. Again, I'd like more information on the character to say more.
Forgedwar 09-11-06, 08:02 PM	First off before hand he was a gunmage from warmachine iron kingdoms who killed everything in path, 11x wolves alone, 9x goblins, 3x hobgoblins, and a bugbear. The orc in question was my own kind of orc that is just above medium making him large, Also a orc chief. he was a human , but the orc was huge, this is exactly what happend. He went 30ft., came behind orc and used trip, he rolled a 18 to trip him, then he proceeded to make 3 attacks at +2 that dealed 1d6 +2 damage, hitting all three times, saying that he could use Quo de grace, I didnt allow so he said he would just make his attacks but the orc got a negative to his AC( sorry should have put this before attacks), and that is what happend.
Forgedwar 09-11-06, 08:06 PM	Sorry if it sounded like he had to change his class to monk, he just had to change his class.
Seerow 09-11-06, 08:19 PM	Okay, so he's a human and your Orcs are large, that clears up a lot of things. Now, since he's a human I guess we'll assume he used Improved Trip, and he had 14 strength. (the 1d6+2). So he has a +6 on his roll, he rolled an 18. The Orc Should have gotten an opposed check with a +4 on his roll from the Size difference, and an extra bonus equal to whatever his strength is. Say he had 18 strength, he should have had a +8 roll opposed to your player's +6 roll. The Player rolled a 24, so that's what your orc had to beat to avoid being tripped. From there, again assuming he had improved trip, and the orc failed his check, the player gets a bonus attack (but remember he used an attack to attempt the trip in the first place, so what this really does is just give him an attack to make up for the one he gave up). The Orc IS prone, so the orc loses 4 to his AC, (or rather the player gains +4 to hit, but it's the same basic thing), then he gains one extra attack from Flurry. The only way he could have had a 3rd attack was if he had TWFing, which would be impossible if he has improved trip. The Coup De Grace thing is still flat out wrong. Prone is not the same as helpless. You can only coup de grace someone if they're completely helpless, for all intents and purposes consider this to mean stunned or unconcious. You were right to disallow that.
zapogee 09-11-06, 08:22 PM	Hes either taking advantage of you or clueless. Read the books before you run anything else. Thats kind of your job as DM. I'd kick him out of the game, anyway. I get the impression he dosent fit in what you want to do with your game. Again, you need to read the books. That would solve 1/2 your problem here. I get the impression kicking the dude out would be the other 1/2 but unless you know the rules of the game your running (or at least where to find them) your asking for it.
Crimson_Concerto 09-11-06, 08:33 PM	He went 30ft., came behind orc and used trip, he rolled a 18 to trip him, then he proceeded to make 3 attacks at +2 that dealed 1d6 +2 damage, hitting all three times, saying that he could use Quo de grace, I didnt allow so he said he would just make his attacks but the orc got a negative to his AC( sorry should have put this before attacks), and that is what happend. Mmkay, I might be understanding wrong (it's already happened twice in this thread), but are you telling me that in one turn this guy moved, tripped, and then still wanted more attacks? Uh, after a move action, you can only take a standard action, so he would have only been able to make the trip, so he actually has NO attacks after the trip (except for if he has Imp. Trip).
DFoster 09-11-06, 08:38 PM	After looking up the monk class it turns out a Human Monk of Level 2 can in fact have both Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Trip. Human Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise Monk Level 1 Bonus Feat: Improved Trip Monk Level 2 Bonus Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Seerow 09-11-06, 08:41 PM	Mmkay, I might be understanding wrong (it's already happened twice in this thread), but are you telling me that in one turn this guy moved, tripped, and then still wanted more attacks? Uh, after a move action, you can only take a standard action, so he would have only been able to make the trip, so he actually has NO attacks after the trip (except for if he has Imp. Trip). That was something I had overlooked. This is correct, you can only use a Flurry of Blows on a full attack, meaning you can't move in the same round you use it. Period. After looking up the monk class it turns out a Human Monk of Level 2 can in fact have both Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Trip. Human Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise Monk Level 1 Bonus Feat: Improved Trip Monk Level 2 Bonus Feat: Two Weapon Fighting Except Monk's don't get to chose their bonus feats like that. after all, they aren't Fighters. Bonus Feat At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them. None of those (until level 6) are any of the feats you need.
Forgedwar 09-11-06, 09:01 PM	Wait I remember he didnt run ( that was the previous round) so if what your saying is true all he did was legal, except the three attacks. He also continuously used 3 attacks throut the session, without negatives, so I read the PH and he should only have gotten 2 attacks at -2, and if was a full attack, he couldnt have moved, but I have no idea what his feats are.
Seerow 09-11-06, 09:18 PM	Well find out his feats. It could be possible he took TWFing (in which case he has another -2 but gets his third attack), and Improved Trip, but forgot about the Combat Expertise prerequisite for Improved Trip.
Zherog 09-11-06, 09:26 PM	:confused: How can you be the DM and not know what feats your PCs have?
Seerow 09-11-06, 09:27 PM	You'd be surprised how many DMs are like that. It's a sad reality we live in.
Salla 09-11-06, 09:36 PM	You'd be surprised how many DMs are like that. It's a sad reality we live in. I'm the opposite. I remember things the PCs can do that the players have forgotten. "I'm sick and tired of getting by butt kicked!" "Start using your Combat Expertise, dummy!" (said jokingly) "..."
Bob Loblaw 09-12-06, 12:18 PM	I don't know all the feats that my players have. However, I do approve every feat that they take when they get one. With the number of feats that they have, I wouldn't be able to remember all of them (they are level 15 at this point, so there are a lot of feats for a group of 5). To the original poster, I would really recommend going over the combat section of the PHB. Run some mock combats with each of the different options listed. When you get stuck, come back on here and get some clarification. You can also look at these (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg)articles which may help you as well. WotC puts them out every now and then to help with some of the more complicated issues.
punching bag 09-12-06, 03:40 PM	I know I should havce made some calls, but I havent looked at the monk classs or trip so any comments would help. Herein lies your biggest problem. As a DM you are the one who must adjudicate the game, act as referee and apply the rules. That being said, the Monk class and the trip ability are basic, core concepts in the game. It looks like you need to do some homework and get more acquianted with the rules and the game if you want to continue as a DM. Next: Your player. Either this player is not familiar with the rules and is making things up as he goes, or he is deliberately trying to fool you. Either way, it is your job to know what can and can't be done according to the rules. If it doesn't fall in the rules then you have to make a ruling and stick with it. If he is trying to fool you, he is being very sneaky about it. He is mixing facts with his own fiction. These have been covered by other posters, but let's look at some examples: Flurry of Blows increases the monks number of attacks, but comes at a penalty to accuracy. It sounds like he is exaggerating the number of attacks, and downplaying the accuracy penalty. Trip attack is a special move that follows a sequence of events. First, he has to make a touch attack to start the trip. If he doesn't have the Improved Trip feat, then his opponent will most likely get to make an attack of opportunity. Then the opposed strength rolls must be made. Don't forget to add in the bonus due to size difference! Remember, the one who starts the trip can also be tripped if he loses the strength battle. Attacking on the ground: The Improved trip feat does grant a free attack when your opponent is on the ground. Yes, there is a bonus to hit a prone opponent. No, the prone opponent does not lose his DEX bonus. No, you cannot do a Coup de Gras on a prone opponent unless he is also HELPLESS. This is a term with a specific definition - look it up. What your player was trying to do was loosely based on the rules, but he wasn't applying them properly. You've got a lot of work to do to get familiar with all the rules. And don't forget, you can say "NO" to someone, or "wait a minute while I look this up". Don't let your players push you around.
Pallin Rahl 09-12-06, 03:57 PM	So your player wants to play a Monk...? DM Step 1) If not already familiar with it, read the Monk class details and look up any concepts that you might not already understand. DM Step 2) Review the player's character sheet before allowing the character into the game. Make sure things look in order... including feats. DM Step 3) Look up any feats you aren't familiar with. ...and if you allow the character to have them, look up any rules related to them that you might not be familiar with. i.e. "Hey, he has Improved Trip as a feat... maybe I should, oh I dunno, read the rules on tripping ...as he may actually attempt to trip something at some point." DM Step 4) Armed with your knowledge, smack the player over the head with a rolled-up newspaper when his level 2 Monk attempts to move, trip, and flurry all in the same round. --- It seems you are unfamiliar with many of the more basic things (such as basic knowledge of the class one of your players is playing) you should know before even beginning play. Before you play again, read through the PHB - at least once. ...and while playing, look up whatever you might not know off the top of your head. DM Step 0) Familiarize yourself with the core rules. ;) --- P.S. I don't know what this player was doing... but the Gun Mage is not an overpowered class or anything. ...my guess is that he was doing something wrong (either accidentally or on purpose) and you didn't realize it. A level 2 Gun Mage, played correctly, is not some kind of god. :) The class itself was not the problem, I'd wager.
Kradlo 09-12-06, 04:30 PM	A Game Master needs to do his homework. That means knowing the basics of the rules well enough to run the game. You don't need to know every detail of every spell in the Player's Handbook by heart, but you need to know how to run a combat round, and what the basic abilities of the core classes are and what they do. Let's begin at the beginning, broken English aside. The monk was evidently hidden (perhaps behind cover), as he was able to move 30 feet (6 squares) up to an unsuspecting orc of Large size (you also mentioned Huge, but I'll stick with this size for now). If the monk was hidden, he could move to the orc via a charge action, up to his normal movement, since it's a surprise round, which only allows one standard action or one move action (not both). So let's say he charged the orc. Even without Improved Trip (which require Combat Expertise as a prerequisite), anyone can attempt a trip attempt with their hands, or with any weapon with the Trip description. Normally this provokes an Attack of Opportunity (AoO). If the opponent is flat-footed (which he'd be in a surprise round), he cannot make an AoO. Also, if the tripper has Improved Trip, the attempt does not provoke an AoO. First off, he has to make a melee touch attack against the orc. Given a +2 bonus for charging, that's not hard. Then there's the opposed Strength roll. If you have Improved Trip, you get a +4 bonus on your attempt to trip him. The orc, being Large, gets a +4 size bonus to his roll. If the trip attempt is successful, down goes the orc. He's now prone, and has a -4 penalty to his AC against melee attacks (but a +4 bonus to AC against missile attacks). Fresh round, initiative is rolled. If the monk wins initiative, he goes first. He could engage in a flurry of blows. That's two attacks, but both attacks suffer a -2 penalty (PHB pg 40). The monk can use his unarmed strike as an offhand weapon, so he could strike three times. But, he'd suffer the penalties for two-weapon fighting in addition to the -2 penalty for the flurry of blows, and his offhand attack would only get half the Str bonus for damage. So, our 2nd level monk with Str 14 and Two Weapon Fighting could make two attacks at -1/-1 for 1d6+2, and one attack at -1 for 1d6+1. And as everyone has already pointed out, no coup de grace.
penguinsrule 09-12-06, 05:38 PM	I just have a few points to make: 1) Don't let the PCs have free reign, know what they are doing (in terms of classes, feats, and such) before you send them into battle. It helps make the game not broken. Its like allowing the entire party to become frenzied beserkers and not looking it up. 2) If people would actually look up things that they have questions on they would probably get answers a lot faster than just making a forum post. 3) Get the player characters to know what they are doing before they do it, and be able to explain why.
Tharin G'tal 09-12-06, 05:58 PM	The Two Weapon Fighting Feat doesn't give you an extra attack, it only reduces the negatives to your attack rolls, Improved Two Weapon Fighting Grants you an extra attack but he's no where near attaining the prerequisite for that.
Tytalus 09-13-06, 04:17 AM	The Two Weapon Fighting Feat doesn't give you an extra attack That's simply wrong.
Radijs 09-13-06, 04:59 AM	Open your PhB and read it cover to cover. You as the DM are the final arbiter in the matter of rules and regulations. This means you have a responsibility to learn them.
makeshiftwings 09-13-06, 05:10 AM	That's simply wrong. No, technically he's right; you can always attack with two weapons even without the feat, but you do it at -4/-8 instead of -2/-2.
Tharin G'tal 09-13-06, 07:31 AM	There's no technically about it but thanks for the back up :D
Kimokeo 09-13-06, 09:32 AM	There was a mention of loss of Dex and that being prone doesn't make you lose your dex. The original poster didn't explain if the orc was flat-footed. That's another topic the DM should know about.
Sereno 09-13-06, 11:12 AM	Personally, I would take any PC's character sheet and put the whole thing into PCGen ... if I can't get it to come out close, they're probably cheating or don't know the rules. We use PCGen for all of our characters (and I use it for NPCs, too). It makes life easier; especially if I want to scale an NPC or two because the PCs have leveled since they last met said NPC....
On_the_wings_of_TPK 09-13-06, 11:22 AM	So heres the question, I've been dieing to have answaered, How does a monk 2 have combat expertise, improved trip, and TWF? The bonus feats provided the monk are limited in what the monk may choose. At first level they may choose either: stunning fist, or improved grapple. At second level they may choose either: combat reflexes, or deflect arrows. We are left with our orginal question: How did the Human Monk 2 manage to make: a trip attack, and then 3 regular attacks at a +2? The answaer; It was not a Monk 2, but a fighter 1 Monk 1. Feats: Fighter bonus feat; TWF Human bonus feat; combat expertise First level feat Improved trip. Abilities required: Str 14, Dex 15, and Int 13. Action scquince in order: 1) Declare flurry of blows, and TWF 2) Make trip attempt, Attack bonus -1 (+1 Base attack bonus (BaB), +2 strngth bonus, -2 flurry of blows, -2 TWF) *Assumes trip attempt was successful* 3) Take bonus attack granted by improved trip feat, Attack bonus +3 (+1 BaB, +2 Str, -2 flurry of blows, -2 TWF, +4 attacking a prone target in melee.) Damage d6+2, 4) Take off hand attack, same attack bonus, +3, damage d6+1, 5) Take flurry of blows attack, same attack bonus, Damage d6+2. It should be noted that the player may or may not have had stunning fist as well. If he did have stunning fist, he may have also attempted to stun the Orc with actions; 3, 4 and 5. The DC would have been 10+1 (monk level) + whatever his wisdom modifier was. If the Orc failed the fortitude save against the stunning attempt, he would have been stunned. Witch, along with his next action, would have denied him his Dex bonus to AC. It should be noted that all of the above mentioned feats, and classes are from the PHB. And that the prerequisites can also be met using Elite aray: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. I wouldn't say that is nessiarily power gaming so much as it is just a smart aplication of avaible resources. It does appear that there were so misunderstandings prehaps with the rules, and more likely a couple of mathmatical errors. Certainly nothing to get overly concerned about, just puase the game, calming open your PHB (you may have to remove the plastic covering first) and look everything up. Then calmly add up all the penalties and bonuses. There is no shame in not knowing all of the rules all of time. heck there are multiple examples on this very thread were we experienced experts got them wrong. There is however no excuse for not looking them up.