A problem about suggestion/lesser geas [Archive] - Wizards Community

A problem about suggestion/lesser geas [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JonnyBoy
02-11-05, 01:09 AM Is it possible to give this order when you cast suggestion/lesser geas:
"Do what I tell you to do for a week"
My bard PC keeps doing that, and I can't find a rule saying that you can't...so...Do you know how to rule this?
ECOM
02-11-05, 01:46 AM I don't have my books handy at the moment and i assume you already have read the spells anyway and have not come up with anything. I think that the order "Do what I tell you to do for a week" would not work for suggestion but would be ok for lesser geas.

From what i remember suggestion is like command but allows more than one word so it would be a now or nothing type of thing.

geas and its variants produce a cumpultion to do something in this case it would be to follow my commands for a week. this i feel is an abuse of the spell but a legal one. this would be like making a person your slave for a week and slavery is an evil act.

Also this could be dangerous, yes the person has to do what you say for a week but what about the times you are not giving orders. for that matter what is to prevent the person from making sure the caster can not give any orders. Also do what i tell you to do does not mean i have to listen to what you tell me not to do .

just some thoughts
Vharuck
02-11-05, 01:49 AM No longer than the duration of the spell. After that they are no longer magically compelled to do anything, and if they continued to serve you they'd probably be stupid enough to do anything you wanted anyways.
Gauze Fireforge
02-11-05, 02:39 AM I think this may be an opportunity for you to shine, to manipulate what the PC's ask the Character to do. And as also said, what will the creature do when the it is not receiving an order?

Manipulate it to your advantage!
Ut-Napishtim
02-11-05, 03:12 AM Yeah I have to agree with ECOM - this seems a bit shady, but as far as I can tell legal within the game mechanics. Also as he said if this guy's running around making folks his slaves his alignment will begin to shift towards evil. If this is something that's creating a lot of trouble for you in your game you can always start using creatures and NPC's that have higher Will saves, making the spell less effective on opponents. Also, IIRC it says in the description of the spell that it's not like Dominate Person or something - your commands are subject to interpretation. So saying 'protect me' might cause the subject to lock you in a nice safe dungeon. Like Gauze Fireforge said you can use this gray area to your advantage. Although I'd also be careful to make sure this is a real problem before you start trying to thwart it, or you could end up in a players vs. DM cycle that could ruin the game as well.
JonnyBoy
02-11-05, 03:45 AM The lesser geas/suggestion thing is not a major problem in my game in itself, but my PC's tend to abuse spells generally.
I have, for instance, a sorceror PC in my group, who thinks that he can do everything with his 1st level spell: Charm Person.
It'd really help me if you posted some things that you would allow people to do with, for instance suggestion and charm person, and what you wouldn't alllow them to do. (and when there are opposed charisma rolls (Charm person))
Thanks for the posting so far...
Tusz
02-11-05, 06:45 AM Also keep in mind that for suggestion, the command must sound reasonable. "Do what I say for a week" isn't reasonable, but "You will be greatly rewarded if you do my bidding for a week" might be.
murte
02-11-05, 09:18 AM All charm person does is basically give you a +20 to your diplomancy check. It makes the person friendly, not stupid, not compelled, and definately not a servant.

Suggestion is an time-limeted action, one that the subject can do within in the duration of the spell 1 hour/level, so at best he could say "Do what I tell you to do for the rest of the day." But then we come across the kicker, I'd allow the above sentence, but since the description of Suggestion says ...a line or two... the next thing the PC told the NPC to do would be the finishing qualifier for the spell, once that action is complete, or time runs out the NPC has free will once again.

With Lesser Geas, I'd say that the wording qualifies as "open ended" that the NPC is unable to complete through their own actions. And remember the NPC knows a spell was cast upon him, if the next thing out of the bards mouth is not "Stay within 10 feet of me for the next week." That NPC should haul booty and get well out of earshot of the bard. Afterall, if they can't hear what the bard desires they are not disobeying the geas.
ECOM
02-11-05, 10:15 AM With Lesser Geas, I'd say that the wording qualifies as "open ended" that the NPC is unable to complete through their own actions. And remember the NPC knows a spell was cast upon him, if the next thing out of the bards mouth is not "Stay within 10 feet of me for the next week." That NPC should haul booty and get well out of earshot of the bard. Afterall, if they can't hear what the bard desires they are not disobeying the geas.
I think you ment "Don't come within 10 feet of me"
john_045412
02-11-05, 10:15 AM The diplomacy bonus for charm is a straight forward fix.

Suggestion has a very short durration and only works for a single command. It must be reasonable (and you might give a subject increased resistance to consecutive suggestion spells). Save bonuses work great on abuse here. Be strict on the single command thing... no "wishing for more wishes"

Geas is probably the easiest one to twist as a DM (and I generally do if it is an abuse of power). Direct quote "A clever recipient can subvert some instructions". Let the players know that the further from a creatures nature the geas is... the more likely it will rebel. (Be sure to encourage with "good results" a proper use of geas.)

Another thought on Geas...it "places (-keyword-)a(-keyword-) magical command". It is obvious that the command is suppost to be singular. You could again rule that the entire command must be given at time of casting to qualify. Again ruling against the "wish for more wishes" concept. I would probably lean towards this route.

The open ended argument does not help here, because that just limits the amount of time the geas says in effect according to the rules... However...(below)

One final thought. Don't get hung up on the rules so much that players can "rule lawyer" their way through things. That's board game not RPG mentality. YOU are the final abiter of what is acceptable in campaigns you DM.
Nomad4life
02-11-05, 11:13 AM Is it possible to give this order when you cast suggestion/lesser geas:
"Do what I tell you to do for a week"
My bard PC keeps doing that, and I can't find a rule saying that you can't...so...Do you know how to rule this?

If you want to be evil (or maybe just clever, depending on how you look at things) next time your Bard tries this, have the NPC –literally- do the first thing the Bard tells them to do… For one week.

Example: The bard orders the NPC to “follow me.”

From then on, the NPC will follow the Bard for a week. He is not compelled to do whatever else the Bard might want, and in fact is perfectly allowed to hinder or harm the bard.

But he DOES have to follow the bard for a week. ;)

Alternately, as someone else already pointed out, if the target NPC has no reason to hang around the bard, they could just wander off… The spell does not compel the target to hang around and be a slave.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JonnyBoy 02-11-05, 01:09 AM	Is it possible to give this order when you cast suggestion/lesser geas: "Do what I tell you to do for a week" My bard PC keeps doing that, and I can't find a rule saying that you can't...so...Do you know how to rule this?
ECOM 02-11-05, 01:46 AM	I don't have my books handy at the moment and i assume you already have read the spells anyway and have not come up with anything. I think that the order "Do what I tell you to do for a week" would not work for suggestion but would be ok for lesser geas. From what i remember suggestion is like command but allows more than one word so it would be a now or nothing type of thing. geas and its variants produce a cumpultion to do something in this case it would be to follow my commands for a week. this i feel is an abuse of the spell but a legal one. this would be like making a person your slave for a week and slavery is an evil act. Also this could be dangerous, yes the person has to do what you say for a week but what about the times you are not giving orders. for that matter what is to prevent the person from making sure the caster can not give any orders. Also do what i tell you to do does not mean i have to listen to what you tell me not to do . just some thoughts
Vharuck 02-11-05, 01:49 AM	No longer than the duration of the spell. After that they are no longer magically compelled to do anything, and if they continued to serve you they'd probably be stupid enough to do anything you wanted anyways.
Gauze Fireforge 02-11-05, 02:39 AM	I think this may be an opportunity for you to shine, to manipulate what the PC's ask the Character to do. And as also said, what will the creature do when the it is not receiving an order? Manipulate it to your advantage!
Ut-Napishtim 02-11-05, 03:12 AM	Yeah I have to agree with ECOM - this seems a bit shady, but as far as I can tell legal within the game mechanics. Also as he said if this guy's running around making folks his slaves his alignment will begin to shift towards evil. If this is something that's creating a lot of trouble for you in your game you can always start using creatures and NPC's that have higher Will saves, making the spell less effective on opponents. Also, IIRC it says in the description of the spell that it's not like Dominate Person or something - your commands are subject to interpretation. So saying 'protect me' might cause the subject to lock you in a nice safe dungeon. Like Gauze Fireforge said you can use this gray area to your advantage. Although I'd also be careful to make sure this is a real problem before you start trying to thwart it, or you could end up in a players vs. DM cycle that could ruin the game as well.
JonnyBoy 02-11-05, 03:45 AM	The lesser geas/suggestion thing is not a major problem in my game in itself, but my PC's tend to abuse spells generally. I have, for instance, a sorceror PC in my group, who thinks that he can do everything with his 1st level spell: Charm Person. It'd really help me if you posted some things that you would allow people to do with, for instance suggestion and charm person, and what you wouldn't alllow them to do. (and when there are opposed charisma rolls (Charm person)) Thanks for the posting so far...
Tusz 02-11-05, 06:45 AM	Also keep in mind that for suggestion, the command must sound reasonable. "Do what I say for a week" isn't reasonable, but "You will be greatly rewarded if you do my bidding for a week" might be.
murte 02-11-05, 09:18 AM	All charm person does is basically give you a +20 to your diplomancy check. It makes the person friendly, not stupid, not compelled, and definately not a servant. Suggestion is an time-limeted action, one that the subject can do within in the duration of the spell 1 hour/level, so at best he could say "Do what I tell you to do for the rest of the day." But then we come across the kicker, I'd allow the above sentence, but since the description of Suggestion says ...a line or two... the next thing the PC told the NPC to do would be the finishing qualifier for the spell, once that action is complete, or time runs out the NPC has free will once again. With Lesser Geas, I'd say that the wording qualifies as "open ended" that the NPC is unable to complete through their own actions. And remember the NPC knows a spell was cast upon him, if the next thing out of the bards mouth is not "Stay within 10 feet of me for the next week." That NPC should haul booty and get well out of earshot of the bard. Afterall, if they can't hear what the bard desires they are not disobeying the geas.
ECOM 02-11-05, 10:15 AM	With Lesser Geas, I'd say that the wording qualifies as "open ended" that the NPC is unable to complete through their own actions. And remember the NPC knows a spell was cast upon him, if the next thing out of the bards mouth is not "Stay within 10 feet of me for the next week." That NPC should haul booty and get well out of earshot of the bard. Afterall, if they can't hear what the bard desires they are not disobeying the geas. I think you ment "Don't come within 10 feet of me"
john_045412 02-11-05, 10:15 AM	The diplomacy bonus for charm is a straight forward fix. Suggestion has a very short durration and only works for a single command. It must be reasonable (and you might give a subject increased resistance to consecutive suggestion spells). Save bonuses work great on abuse here. Be strict on the single command thing... no "wishing for more wishes" Geas is probably the easiest one to twist as a DM (and I generally do if it is an abuse of power). Direct quote "A clever recipient can subvert some instructions". Let the players know that the further from a creatures nature the geas is... the more likely it will rebel. (Be sure to encourage with "good results" a proper use of geas.) Another thought on Geas...it "places (-keyword-)a(-keyword-) magical command". It is obvious that the command is suppost to be singular. You could again rule that the entire command must be given at time of casting to qualify. Again ruling against the "wish for more wishes" concept. I would probably lean towards this route. The open ended argument does not help here, because that just limits the amount of time the geas says in effect according to the rules... However...(below) One final thought. Don't get hung up on the rules so much that players can "rule lawyer" their way through things. That's board game not RPG mentality. YOU are the final abiter of what is acceptable in campaigns you DM.
Nomad4life 02-11-05, 11:13 AM	Is it possible to give this order when you cast suggestion/lesser geas: "Do what I tell you to do for a week" My bard PC keeps doing that, and I can't find a rule saying that you can't...so...Do you know how to rule this? If you want to be evil (or maybe just clever, depending on how you look at things) next time your Bard tries this, have the NPC –literally- do the first thing the Bard tells them to do… For one week. Example: The bard orders the NPC to “follow me.” From then on, the NPC will follow the Bard for a week. He is not compelled to do whatever else the Bard might want, and in fact is perfectly allowed to hinder or harm the bard. But he DOES have to follow the bard for a week. ;) Alternately, as someone else already pointed out, if the target NPC has no reason to hang around the bard, they could just wander off… The spell does not compel the target to hang around and be a slave.