A question about VOP and magic items [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question about VOP and magic items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NotBruce
05-31-06, 07:31 PM yea yea I know all the stuff about VOP cheese and whatever, but I kind of like the idea of it any way on to the question.

A character(lets call him Bob) with VOP goes out and kills the evil red dragon that has been bad.

Bob wants to take the hoard to town to feed the people/ophens (general good stuff) he has no interest in keeping any of it. however going though the loot he finds a bag of holding.

would using the bag of holding to carry the loot to town brake the vow?
Verelor
05-31-06, 07:49 PM No. He's not owning it. He is delivering it. A mailman does not own any of the mail or packages or the truck; he uses those valuable objects to deliver.
metamind
05-31-06, 07:54 PM ^Yeah, like that^
CzarGarrett
06-01-06, 02:08 PM I concur.

When dealing with exalted characters, the intent has equal weighting with the deed.

The VoP character is using (without ownership) a magic item in an attempt to help ease the suffering of others.

I'd definately allow it in one of my games. Until such a point that the VoP character doesn't hand over every single magic item, including the bag, upon arrival in the town.
Arganis
06-01-06, 02:12 PM I concur.

As do I.

But...

When dealing with exalted characters, the intent has equal weighting with the deed.

Are you sure?
Millennium
06-01-06, 02:15 PM I would argue that no, using the Bag of Holding as a container for the items he intends to give away doesn't break the vow, as long as he doesn't use it for anything else. However, he would still need to distribute the bag and its entire contents to the poor (or sell the ithe bag and its contents, then distribute the money to the poor) at the first opportunity.

As an alternative, he could have someone else put the items into the bag, and then he could carry it until the time came to distribute the items. This is getting a little absurd, but it follows the letter of the vow much more closely for those who are sticklers for that kind of thing.
Witch
06-01-06, 02:21 PM Intent is extremely important with exalted characters.
Else you get ruleslawyers who say they haven't broken the vow mechanically, but they do so all the time in spirit.

Secondly, I wouldn't say that he should give them at the first opportunity - if he's aware that there are people that have it a lot worse, for example, he could wait a bit. That does not mean that he gets to use the bag for other purposes.
Arganis
06-01-06, 02:36 PM Intent is extremely important with exalted characters.
Else you get ruleslawyers who say they haven't broken the vow mechanically, but they do so all the time in spirit.

Of course it is extremely important. But is it equal to action? Doesn't that open the door to breaking a vow for good reason?

At the very least, they are equal in that an Exalted character must be above reproach in both action and intent.
Witch
06-01-06, 02:42 PM I don't believe that this would be an action that broke the spirit of the vow though.

And if breaking the Vow would be required for some greater good purpose, I believe an exalted character should break his Vow, for the purpose of the greater good.
Arganis
06-01-06, 02:59 PM I don't believe that this would be an action that broke the spirit of the vow though.

Definitely not. Unless of course he got it into his mind that he could use one of the weapons while he was carrying it back to the town.

And if breaking the Vow would be required for some greater good purpose, I believe an exalted character should break his Vow, for the purpose of the greater good.

Do you believe that a VoP character who broke their vow to save a town full of endangered children should lose that feat forever?
Witch
06-01-06, 03:12 PM Mechanically, yes.

Practically, I'd either let him atone, or choose another feat. Perhaps restricted to exalted feats, though.
Manus
06-01-06, 05:16 PM I would color my answer to the original question based on whether or not there are other reasonable options that do not break his vow, even if they are more trouble.

For instance: why not have another player store the loot in the bag and carry the bag?

To truly play the 'spirit' of a VoP character, I would not use the bag of holding. I'd load whatever I could carry into my non-magical bag, leave the rest, go to town, distribute the wealth to appropriate charities, and not bother going back for more. After all, what interest would I have in worldly goods?

A person who argues that they could make multiple trips to give more money to charities is likely doing this for ego based reasons to increase his standing at those or other charities and feel better about himself. As a side note, I would have no problems with alerting those needy organizations that there is a large quantity of unguarded coin for the taking if they wish to go after it.

I'm sure various people can point out how I'm wrong and that a VoP CAN bring all that gold out by using the bag or not using the bag. Fine, in your game, do that. To me, it is a rationalization. If you're really roleplaying the vow, and not just interested in the side benefits, consider that your desire to donate EVERY gold piece you find to worthy causes might just be another manifestation of your desire to 'loot the corpse of everything of value', only rechanneled. If I am truly roleplaying the vow, then to me, slaying the evil dragon is important. Doing ANYTHING with the gold is completely irrelevant to me. It's a vow of poverty, not a vow of charity. Why would I want to pick up the gold in the first place? I would just leave it in the hoard and walk away. The next adventurer to come by just won the lottery. I'm sure people can rationalize a reason to take the money; but that's all it is: rationalization.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NotBruce 05-31-06, 07:31 PM	yea yea I know all the stuff about VOP cheese and whatever, but I kind of like the idea of it any way on to the question. A character(lets call him Bob) with VOP goes out and kills the evil red dragon that has been bad. Bob wants to take the hoard to town to feed the people/ophens (general good stuff) he has no interest in keeping any of it. however going though the loot he finds a bag of holding. would using the bag of holding to carry the loot to town brake the vow?
Verelor 05-31-06, 07:49 PM	No. He's not owning it. He is delivering it. A mailman does not own any of the mail or packages or the truck; he uses those valuable objects to deliver.
metamind 05-31-06, 07:54 PM	^Yeah, like that^
CzarGarrett 06-01-06, 02:08 PM	I concur. When dealing with exalted characters, the intent has equal weighting with the deed. The VoP character is using (without ownership) a magic item in an attempt to help ease the suffering of others. I'd definately allow it in one of my games. Until such a point that the VoP character doesn't hand over every single magic item, including the bag, upon arrival in the town.
Arganis 06-01-06, 02:12 PM	I concur. As do I. But... When dealing with exalted characters, the intent has equal weighting with the deed. Are you sure?
Millennium 06-01-06, 02:15 PM	I would argue that no, using the Bag of Holding as a container for the items he intends to give away doesn't break the vow, as long as he doesn't use it for anything else. However, he would still need to distribute the bag and its entire contents to the poor (or sell the ithe bag and its contents, then distribute the money to the poor) at the first opportunity. As an alternative, he could have someone else put the items into the bag, and then he could carry it until the time came to distribute the items. This is getting a little absurd, but it follows the letter of the vow much more closely for those who are sticklers for that kind of thing.
Witch 06-01-06, 02:21 PM	Intent is extremely important with exalted characters. Else you get ruleslawyers who say they haven't broken the vow mechanically, but they do so all the time in spirit. Secondly, I wouldn't say that he should give them at the first opportunity - if he's aware that there are people that have it a lot worse, for example, he could wait a bit. That does not mean that he gets to use the bag for other purposes.
Arganis 06-01-06, 02:36 PM	Intent is extremely important with exalted characters. Else you get ruleslawyers who say they haven't broken the vow mechanically, but they do so all the time in spirit. Of course it is extremely important. But is it equal to action? Doesn't that open the door to breaking a vow for good reason? At the very least, they are equal in that an Exalted character must be above reproach in both action and intent.
Witch 06-01-06, 02:42 PM	I don't believe that this would be an action that broke the spirit of the vow though. And if breaking the Vow would be required for some greater good purpose, I believe an exalted character should break his Vow, for the purpose of the greater good.
Arganis 06-01-06, 02:59 PM	I don't believe that this would be an action that broke the spirit of the vow though. Definitely not. Unless of course he got it into his mind that he could use one of the weapons while he was carrying it back to the town. And if breaking the Vow would be required for some greater good purpose, I believe an exalted character should break his Vow, for the purpose of the greater good. Do you believe that a VoP character who broke their vow to save a town full of endangered children should lose that feat forever?
Witch 06-01-06, 03:12 PM	Mechanically, yes. Practically, I'd either let him atone, or choose another feat. Perhaps restricted to exalted feats, though.
Manus 06-01-06, 05:16 PM	I would color my answer to the original question based on whether or not there are other reasonable options that do not break his vow, even if they are more trouble. For instance: why not have another player store the loot in the bag and carry the bag? To truly play the 'spirit' of a VoP character, I would not use the bag of holding. I'd load whatever I could carry into my non-magical bag, leave the rest, go to town, distribute the wealth to appropriate charities, and not bother going back for more. After all, what interest would I have in worldly goods? A person who argues that they could make multiple trips to give more money to charities is likely doing this for ego based reasons to increase his standing at those or other charities and feel better about himself. As a side note, I would have no problems with alerting those needy organizations that there is a large quantity of unguarded coin for the taking if they wish to go after it. I'm sure various people can point out how I'm wrong and that a VoP CAN bring all that gold out by using the bag or not using the bag. Fine, in your game, do that. To me, it is a rationalization. If you're really roleplaying the vow, and not just interested in the side benefits, consider that your desire to donate EVERY gold piece you find to worthy causes might just be another manifestation of your desire to 'loot the corpse of everything of value', only rechanneled. If I am truly roleplaying the vow, then to me, slaying the evil dragon is important. Doing ANYTHING with the gold is completely irrelevant to me. It's a vow of poverty, not a vow of charity. Why would I want to pick up the gold in the first place? I would just leave it in the hoard and walk away. The next adventurer to come by just won the lottery. I'm sure people can rationalize a reason to take the money; but that's all it is: rationalization.