Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JonnyBoy 02-17-04, 08:18 AM	One of the PC's in my group is a drow ranger. He is an orphan, and has grown up in a forest with a druid. He wants to have ranger as a favoured claas so that he can multiclass with barbarian without any xp-penalty. Do you think I should let him? Do you think it will become unbalanced? Why? Why not?
JonnyBoy 02-17-04, 08:24 AM	bump
Malben 02-17-04, 08:29 AM	No. It's almost always a bad idea to rewrite published material so that your players can conveniently pick a particular spread of levels that they want. Besides, multiclassing only causes penalties if you multiclass and don't keep your class levels pretty even. If this drow goes brb1/rng1, and then brb2/rng1, and then brb2/rng2, and so on, he'll be fine. You only get multiclass penalties if you emphasize one class over the other. Technically, this drow could go brb2/drd3/rng2, if he so desired. He's still not going to take XP penalties for it. It'd be a crappy thing to do, mechanically speaking, but he could do it. What he can't do without taking XP penalties is go brb1/drd4/rng2. That'd get him the 20% penalty, because then his multiclass levels are way out of balance. Likewise rng3/brb1, or brb1/rng3. Yes, this will get him multiclass penalties. He's just got to gain one level of barbarian for every level he gains in ranger, and he'll be fine all the way up into 20th level, when he hits brb10/rng10. This is actually a pretty nice multiclass option. The two classes work nicely together.
JonnyBoy 02-17-04, 09:02 AM	If anybody disagree, or know how to make this fair/possible please answer!!
Ankalagon 02-17-04, 09:20 AM	I don't think there is any unbalancing here. By and large favoured is dictated by youthful environment, if his life has been at play in the forest then Ranger is reasonable. Ranger and Barbarian are survivalist in nature so as a categoric why not, I personally don't see one. I would definiately ask why though, beyond just wanting his character as wonderful as possible. Your the DM and it's your game. The rules are your friend and are not set in stone. Is the player called Drizzt by any chance?
Salla 02-17-04, 09:40 AM	I, personally, threw out the Favored Class and Multiclass Experience Penalty rules completely, 'cause I didn't see where they made any sense ... from a game mechanics standpoint, maybe, but from an in-character sense, who cares if most (race) are (class)? You're a unique individual, be what you want to be. (Then added a few things to Humans and Half-Elves to balance that, of course.)
Dark Wanderer 02-17-04, 10:31 AM	I agreed also with the no XP penalty model until one of my players started a multiclassed Ranger/Barbarian. It all started funny as the Halfling ranger set out to explore the unknown to the north. At 4th level with Humans as a favored enemy he asked if he could take a level of barbarian without penalty because he was in the barbarian lands and had been working with them for 6 months. I agreed. First combat after that level I heard this as he attacked a caravan. They are human right? YEP OK First before they get closer- i rage and because they are my favored enemy I get ___ and because I am small I get ___and BLAH BLAH BLAH........ I took care of it quickly, he still plays the character and he is a tank literally using missle from range and then raging and charging. Be careful and always have something up your sleeve to either slow him down or scare the crap out of him. Best hint: Always keep count of how long he rages. The Bonuses add up quickly but the AC goes down. HIt him where it hurts a slow spell or hold person helps.:smirk:
Juca 02-17-04, 10:51 AM	You wanna no penalty in multiclass hu? By the rules you simply can't (well, I think that there's a feat in the Forgotten Realms book, metropolitan I think that lets you choose another prefered class...). And if it was my campaing I simply say no. If the player reallys want play that way, take the xp penalty! Its the same as asking to want to play a dwarven sorcerer but to ask to not gains -2 in charisma.
Ankalagon 02-17-04, 11:03 AM	Juca You can shout at me if you like but I have only ever implemented the -2 penalty when dealing with other races. Dwarf vs Dwarf I leave as rolled, so I wouldn't penalise a dwarf sorcerer. But that's just me, not everyone will agree. Purely based upon mechanics I am wrong to do this, but realistically (for a fantasy game) I don't think I am. Jeeze, if someone wanted and chose a Dwarf sorcerer I reckon they will suffer enough:)
Salla 02-17-04, 11:21 AM	I'm going to assume that he's high enough level that he can't simply keep his ranger/barbarian progression close enough together to avoid the penalty?
Revelation 02-17-04, 11:25 AM	Rule 0, you're the DM if you want to let him do it, let him. I wouldn't. I appreciate the points made by those who let people pay any combination of classes, but I like the flavour of preferred classes for certain races. Most go with the preferred class or some combo, only the dedicated break their racial stereotypes to be another class. I have had players come up with great backgrounds to justify ANYTHING! If he really wants to be a ranger barabarian keep the classes close and take both. If he only wants the barbarian for a power play on top of TWF then bad luck. I'd suggest keeping the levels balanced and aiming for a suitable prestige class.
LordMacbeth 02-17-04, 01:09 PM	In my own campaign I would let him multiclass freely as a druid since he was raised by one and it mght provide some stroy benifits, on the other hand, I wouldn't let him multiclass as a barbarian because he doesn't sound like he has much of a reason. True, they are similar, but Barbarians don't revere nature the same way as rangers/druids. As a side note; How many levels has he taken as a ranger? I ask because the XP penalty isn't really all that bad.
Lady Mia 02-17-04, 03:01 PM	I would join the crowd saying NO don't let him. I have several reasons. His character is a drow raised by druids... this alone rings alarm bells in my head. It smacks of a cleverly written background to allow the PC options others wouldn't have. Such as a haven where he won't be persecuted (Druid Lands), thats centrally located to the campaign area. But alone thats not enough for a veto. The next alarm is the wanting an unusual Favored Class. It sounds like he wants to be able to just buy a couple levels of either Ranger or Barbarian as a simple power boost. I am guessing he just wants the Spell Resistance while having a wilderness character at the same time. I would suggest he play a wood elf instead of a drow... they have Ranger as a favored class. And it would fit the setting better.
Glak 02-17-04, 03:17 PM	Nonspellcasters are much weaker than spellcasters. You want this guy to be in line with the other characters. So, counting him out, do you have more spellcasters or nonspellcasters? That is how I would make my decision. If you have a lot of spellcasters let him multiclass a lot so that he has a chance to shine. If you only have a Cleric then you should probably stick to the rules so that the rogue and paladin, or whatever you have, still have their chances to shine.
HoshiAdam 02-17-04, 03:31 PM	For a change as small as favored class, I wouldn't mind changing it. In my games, we gave all races two favored classes, one melee and one spellcaster. In some games we tossed the XP penalty but limited the number of classes you could take. If you think it is unfair, take away his racial proficiences in rapier, hand crossbow, and shortsword, and Undercommon as a starting language. That seems like it would be sufficient balance, and would make sense with the background, AFAIK.
Worloth Kangro 02-17-04, 07:47 PM	Salla, what did you add to the Human and Half-Elf races after eliminating all multiclass penalties. I also got rid of the penalties and have been debating what to give the two races. Thanks. Worloth
Nom 02-17-04, 08:56 PM	The other observation is which races get Favoured Class: Any. The ones without stat mods. At the game mechanics level, the choice being offered is stat mods (which are almost uniformly to the character's advantage) or the ability to pick up class abilities more easily. I recently "reality shifted" my elven ranger to a half-elven ranger, because she changed her char idea. She wanted to multiclass to bard or rogue. I decided it wasn't "balanced" that she could get the favourable elf stat mods and still gather a variety of class abilities, so we shifted her race, which was more suitable for the way the char was developing anyway. Some food for thought.
DarkThoughts24 02-17-04, 09:10 PM	death to drittz, and perhaps all his clones will die too. as far as the penalty if he's only going to be a barb/ranger at least he didnt ask to gestalt it. i'd say give it because its a small lil bone to toss the player and lets be honest drow stats anrt so grand for barbs
Pongolyn 02-17-04, 09:21 PM	I'm not a huge fan of XP penalties and favored classes to begin with, but I say anyone who wants to play a surface drow ranger (let me guess, he's not evil, is he?) should have the XP penalty tripled on principle. He should also have his head bashed in with a DMG. Okay, I'm kidding. But seriously; you should encourage him to come up with something a little more original.
Ack'noth Necrom 02-17-04, 09:31 PM	I dont think its unbalancing at all. I have a house rule that says "Favored classes are determined by the induvidual person. The first class a character takes is considered their favored class" I have this rule because i disagree with the whole racial class idea. If a character grows up in a magical society but always fails when he tries things that use magic why should that be their favored class (say for instance they dont have a 11 Int or CHA? it just doesnt make sense to me As an alternate route you could just have him spend a feat to gain ranger as his favored class. I can think of several feats the do that and give a few bonuses.
JonnyBoy 02-23-04, 01:37 PM	Yeah I think I'll say no. Because he has already got only +1 LA, while he should have had +2. and He doesn't have too good reasons.
LordHell 02-23-04, 03:19 PM	Originally posted by Ack'noth Necrom I dont think its unbalancing at all. I have a house rule that says "Favored classes are determined by the induvidual person. The first class a character takes is considered their favored class" I have this rule because i disagree with the whole racial class idea. If a character grows up in a magical society but always fails when he tries things that use magic why should that be their favored class (say for instance they dont have a 11 Int or CHA? it just doesnt make sense to me As an alternate route you could just have him spend a feat to gain ranger as his favored class. I can think of several feats the do that and give a few bonuses. The favoured class thing is have a race that has a particular knack at a particular profession. For example, Dwaves spend a lot of times in battles with other creatures under the mountians, so fighting is something that is bred into them. Certian races concerntrate on certian things, and through genetics, their offspring are naturally better at this too. Humans don't have such a penalty, because they are so diverse anyway. The thing that DOESNT make sense to me, is multiclassing. I firmly believe if you want to start a new class, you must start it at apprentice level, and have someone to train you in that class. It doesn't make sense that a Fighter who knows _nothing_ about magic, can suddenly and "magically" take a level in Wizard without any training or practice. For the original poster, depending on your world, yes or no. In a typical FR kind of setting, warn him the implications of playing a Drow. Drow are generally despised and it would be very tedious after a while having to sleep in the bushes outside the town, while your party gets to stay in the nice comfortable inn's, and what not (Altho he may enjoy this). Also if there are other elves in the party, this is guarenteed to create some problems despite the characters alignments. From a balance perspective, I'd definately give him a LA of +2.
Escef 02-23-04, 03:45 PM	I say make him burn a feat for it. Look at what he's getting. Rage, d12 hit die, +2 fort save, +10 feet movement... Sorry, but multiclassing is powerful enough.
adiaven 02-23-04, 04:13 PM	DM's that let any character multiclass freely: Does anyone in your campaign play a human or half elf?
LordHell 02-23-04, 04:22 PM	Originally posted by adiaven DM's that let any character multiclass freely: Does anyone in your campaign play a human or half elf? Maybe you should be asking if anyone plays a core race at all. :)
Utumno 02-23-04, 04:54 PM	No. Drow=elf. Elf=mage. You are brave to let him play a drow in the first place.
Krelios 02-23-04, 05:04 PM	No. Drow=elf. Elf=mage. Actually... Male Drow = Wizard, Female Drow = Cleric. I know that's the case in FR (CS and Underdark), and I'm pretty sure that's the case in the 3.5 MM now too.
Bluebrush 02-23-04, 05:12 PM	Originally posted by Worloth Kangro Salla, what did you add to the Human and Half-Elf races after eliminating all multiclass penalties. I also got rid of the penalties and have been debating what to give the two races. Thanks. Worloth I wouldn't mind knowing myself. I was considering ruling that the character's first class level be their favoured class, and that Humans & Half-elves can change favoured class at will, but that still seems a bit weak.