Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gellion 02-04-04, 04:24 PM	Okay, i have this one player that is like a broken record. He used to be the DM, but he deiced to let me try, and i am now the permanent DM. One of his reasons was he said i knew the rules better than he did. But everytime i try to enforce a rule that he did not, such as Constructs being immune to stunning. He will come up with an asinine arguement. I made a custom-made elcetricity powered construct, and his Bard cast SOund Brust, which noramlly you must make a Fort. save against or be stunned. But since Constructs are immune to stunning, i said no. He then said this. Player:But, if tis electricity it should be stunned. That may ot exactly be what he said, that session was a long time ago. He argues until he gets his way. And he whines when he rolls high and doesnt make a save/to hit and says he should hit or save. Outside of game he is a great guy and really nice, i have tried talking to him outside og game. But he is more stubborn than a Dwarf. Please excuse any typos in this post. My fingers are cold.
bitnine 02-04-04, 04:57 PM	I know the type of players who get like that and argue and pout and want whatever special things they think of to work. I can't say that I have a singular bit of advice to give, as the approach I take would largely depend on how the player responds. I let players know that they should feel free to bring up a concern that they think I've overlooked, but they know that I'm likely going to be fairly firm in my rulings. Which works out well because they are reasonable. They want to try to go for a larger discussion on a point, they should wait 'till after the game and not disrupt the flow of play. And personally, I'm not above mocking players that say things that I feel are blatantly wrong.
Luminous Crayon 02-04-04, 05:04 PM	Tell him to pipe down and play the game, and that if he has any serious rules disagreements, that he should talk to you about them after the game is over. I have DMed games with other DMs in them as players, but fortunately mine are generally good about following this little guideline. I occasionally get called on something I messed up during the session, and correct it the next time it comes up in game, but there aren't interruptions in the middle of combat to argue rules disputes between one DM's style and another's. If that doesn't work, tell him that you're the gosh-darned DM in this game, and everything damn well works the way you say it does. I'm generally not a fan of being so blunt, personally, but it is the truth, and it may get the point across if all else fails. I wouldn't kick a backseat DM out of my group, by any means, but I would beat that nasty habit out of him with an ogre's greatclub.
Gellion 02-04-04, 05:33 PM	Originally posted by Luminous Crayon Tell him to pipe down and play the game, and that if he has any serious rules disagreements, that he should talk to you about them after the game is over. I have DMed games with other DMs in them as players, but fortunately mine are generally good about following this little guideline. I occasionally get called on something I messed up during the session, and correct it the next time it comes up in game, but there aren't interruptions in the middle of combat to argue rules disputes between one DM's style and another's. If that doesn't work, tell him that you're the gosh-darned DM in this game, and everything damn well works the way you say it does. I'm generally not a fan of being so blunt, personally, but it is the truth, and it may get the point across if all else fails. I wouldn't kick a backseat DM out of my group, by any means, but I would beat that nasty habit out of him with an ogre's greatclub. When he tries that he says i should know the rules better. And that i should not be DMing. II tell him to be quiet, but he wont shut up, he just keeps talking.
anevilpetingzoo 02-04-04, 06:07 PM	I have been one of the other players in this situation. One of the guys that has to sit there and patiently wait while the other guy whines. I personnaly find thoes kinds of situations uncomfortable and will not hessitate as another palyer at the table to tell him that he is out of line. I have also been insituations where that course of actions would not have been appropriate and had to sit there and suffer untill the DM grew a pair and asked the guy to straighten up or leave. Lay it on the line for him. Shape up or I will have to ask you to not show up.
Luminous Crayon 02-04-04, 06:17 PM	Originally posted by Gellion When he tries that he says i should know the rules better. And that i should not be DMing. II tell him to be quiet, but he wont shut up, he just keeps talking. The bleak truth is that the rules of DnD are only what the DM says they are. When you get right down to brass tacks, everything else is a mere guideline. Ice him. He's obviously throwing you off your stride, and disrupting the game for the other players. I'd not lose a wink of sleep over throwing him out of the game, perhaps for a few sessions, perhaps permanently. Maybe a little DnD withdrawal will jolt him into acting like a civilized gamer, and you'll have a reformed player when he rejoins the group.
Peter Bergholtz 02-04-04, 06:20 PM	"Kick disruptive player/players and get new player/players who are fun to play with."
NinjaHedge 02-04-04, 06:41 PM	just be as stupid and stuborn as him. Reason with him until you think he's gone too far and then just buckle down and hold your ground. "He should be stunned" "No, he's a construct" "But it's electricity" "Nope" "But that doesn't make sense" "Yes it does" "No it doesn't!" "I'm the DM, and I say he doesn't get stunned, so he doesn't, I don't have to make sense"
Timbo234 02-04-04, 07:13 PM	Not long ago I had everyone over at my place to play a session. As I am the only one with a car this meant that I had to go and pick everyone up and at the end of session I have to drop them all off at home again. Well this one guy starts whining at the DM about how this should work and that should work...it was a new DM so he looked to me to see if he was right. The DM made a fine judgement call, when the player would not stop whining I told him he had two choices....get over it or leave. I don't like being so harsh but he would have ruined the night for everyone else and that is unnacceptable. I spoke with him afterwards and we agreed that he should no longer come to our sessions. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions.
CrippleMrOnion 02-04-04, 07:41 PM	I teach 8th grade, so most of my kids act like your player does. There's two VERY effective ways of dealing with it, one of which as already been stated. First, use the "broken record" technique. That's what ninjahedge suggested, but without the "cool" "new" "edu" term for it. Just keep saying no over and over. Dont' justify, don't explain, don't answer his questions, just say no until he gets the point and shuts up. Second, just sit quietly. He can't argue with silence. Let him go on for however long he needs, which, honestly, won't be long if you're not fighting back. When he's done, move on without a mention of it again. Let your decision be what happened, and so be it. Of course, you can kick his butt out, too. That's what I do if neither above technique works (and I've called the parent, but, in your case, that's irrelevant).
bitnine 02-04-04, 07:52 PM	Meh. You can always ask him if he knows what a door is and how to use it. If so, a clear choice to him can be presented.
Fixxxer 02-04-04, 10:29 PM	He argues until he gets his way. Here is your problem. You cave. The simple answer is not to cave. Let him make his arguement and make your decision. If he presses the issue, say "I'm sorry, but I have made my decision." If he continues to press the issue, say "Excuse me, mabey you didn't hear me. I've made my decision." If he still continues to press, look him dead in the eye and politely say "I have made my decision. It is not going to change. Your argument is disrupting the game and if you continue to press the issue, I'm going to have to ask you to leave." If that doesn't work, club him over the head with a rock and throw him down a well.
Gellion 02-04-04, 10:43 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Here is your problem. You cave. The simple answer is not to cave. Let him make his arguement and make your decision. If he presses the issue, say "I'm sorry, but I have made my decision." If he continues to press the issue, say "Excuse me, mabey you didn't hear me. I've made my decision." If he still continues to press, look him dead in the eye and politely say "I have made my decision. It is not going to change. Your argument is disrupting the game and if you continue to press the issue, I'm going to have to ask you to leave." If that doesn't work, club him over the head with a rock and throw him down a well. I suppose another problem is, he gets the other players to go against me(with the excpetion of one). He DMed before me, so he raised them on his Player Vs. Dm style. He thinks DMing is not supposed to be any fun, and that it is a thankless job.
Herr Doktor 02-04-04, 11:14 PM	Originally posted by Gellion I suppose another problem is, he gets the other players to go against me(with the excpetion of one). He DMed before me, so he raised them on his Player Vs. Dm style. He thinks DMing is not supposed to be any fun, and that it is a thankless job. Make that a very deep well. Your group sounds like it meets for ego boosting argumentative nonsense, I'd step out if I were you.
Bopple 02-04-04, 11:19 PM	BTW, what's his logic of stunning an electrified construct, with Sound Burst?
Nom 02-05-04, 12:14 AM	The only caveat is to make sure that you're consistent. If you rule one way on an issue, keep ruling that same way unless: (1) You tell the players outside play time that you've decided your ruling X was wrong and that the ruling is now Y. If it matters (eg you've doubled the cost of making magic items), allow them to adjust feats or char choices accordingly. (2) There is a very good in-game reason why there is an exception in this particular case. At some point though, you have three choices. Cave in and let him run the game. Refuse to argue and wait until he gets the point. And if he doesn't, either eject him, or take your game and go home. I know the latter feels childish, but ultimately any game with a referee (and the DM is part-referee) works if and only if people are willing to trust the ref and respect his authority and judgement. If you have a problem with the ref, you "shut up and play" and, if necessary, deal with it later.
Xyplex 02-05-04, 01:11 AM	A rule that my gaming group has used to some success is that if you're unwilling to DM yourself, than why should we DM for you? In that way everyone got a sense of what is was to be treated that way. If one of us DMed unfairly, they found out about it right quick ... and we were all a little more empowered by it, so that players who saw other players abusing the DM would step in because that's what they would want to have happen if they were being abused themselves. It didn't always work ... there were some intractable, I'm #1 whether or not I'm playing or DMing, types or lazy folk who didn't run their game until a blue moon dropped on their house, but it put down the rule of ... put up, or shut up.
artman 02-05-04, 01:14 AM	here's an idea: if the palyer ever does something that makes an NPC or monster do a check of any kind, do not tell them if they passed or failed in gaming terms. tell their character in in-game terms. Instead of saying that the effect failed bc the golem made a save say that the bard casts his spells, he sees the golem react to it, but it doen't slow it down. If he presses it just tell him the thing saved. I count immunities as auto-saves in that respect.
Kaya Kenobi 02-05-04, 02:56 AM	I had a player once who thought criticals with blunt weapons should work on a skeleton.. I kept telling that player no..
halzmar of geoff 02-05-04, 10:02 AM	Originally posted by artman here's an idea: if the palyer ever does something that makes an NPC or monster do a check of any kind, do not tell them if they passed or failed in gaming terms. tell their character in in-game terms. Gotta agree. I never tell the players something is immune to an attack form, even if it is say immune to fire I roll the dice like I'm making a save, and ask for damage from the sorcerer. Then I say it looks like it had little effect on the critter - there is no reason to let them know if or why it didn't work. IMHO avoid giving descriptions in game terms; it cuts down on a lot of in game arguments over whether, or not the character's action should have a certain effect.
Fixxxer 02-05-04, 10:52 PM	Originally posted by Gellion I suppose another problem is, he gets the other players to go against me(with the excpetion of one). He DMed before me, so he raised them on his Player Vs. Dm style. He thinks DMing is not supposed to be any fun, and that it is a thankless job. It really doesn't matter. You are the DM and it's your job to make decisions about things. Once you've made them, you've made them. If he doesn't like it, he can start DMing his own game again. If the other players don't like it, they can go with him. It really comes down to one thing: How badly do you really want a game where your decisions aren't second-guessed and outright slandered?
Dark Wanderer 02-06-04, 02:22 AM	I have been a DM for twenty years + and have run into that old DM who believes he has a concept for everything. One point: Your game don't tell him anything he doesnt need to know. The sound burst echoes through the chamber as the construct lurches and creaks. He advances on you. Simply put and when he complains just say sorry and if you havent rolled any dice yet roll em now and then say yep hes coming at you. dont let him dwell on it. :uh-huh:
Ankalagon 02-06-04, 07:13 AM	CrippleMrOnion is excellent advice. You mention player vs DM. Do they actually get the concept of it not being a me vs you kind of game. Other people have stated this far more eloquently than I ever could but basically the DM's job. Well I always use the term "Ref", because I am an old coffin dodger (well in my 30's). But referee is the right word. Fairness to the game played, fairness to the spirit of the game and fairness to your players. If in truth they actually (you did mention they) want no challenge then why have a DM, just roll a random dungeon and slash away. In fact why have rules, why even play D&D unless it's just a structured piece of paper with a name, some numbers and some fantastical magic. I wish you the best of luckl. Some people just like to argue with authority, but in truth the actual authority is in the hands of everyone at the gaming table. Therefore their arguments are self defeating in the end. Am I making any damn sense at all, not sure but I have only had 1 coffee so far:)
Gellion 02-06-04, 07:19 AM	Well thanks everybody. I am not having my game this week, but that is due to RL reasons.
Gellion 02-06-04, 04:13 PM	Another problem is, we have a player who is playing a Paladin. this player made up this code in which a Paladin can not swear, unless damning an ememy. He is a History buff, so i suspect it is from something historical, but i am not sure. I had no say in this code what so ever, but the player who is playing the Paladin says i should not let him get way with swearing. I also said that they could use more modern terms if they wanted, like i would not care if they said "oh pooh" after something bad happens. But then this plaer says when have you ever seen the word :censored: in a fantasy novel? I tried to inform him that i was DMing, and that i did not care what was not in some novel. I guess you could say it is an issue of him having a high charisma score in RL, and me not.
halzmar of geoff 02-06-04, 04:38 PM	Originally posted by Gellion Another problem is, we have a player who is playing a Paladin. this player made up this code in which a Paladin can not swear, unless damning an ememy. He is a History buff, so i suspect it is from something historical, but i am not sure. I had no say in this code what so ever, but the player who is playing the Paladin says i should not let him get way with swearing. I also said that they could use more modern terms if they wanted, like i would not care if they said "oh pooh" after something bad happens. But then this plaer says when have you ever seen the word :censored: in a fantasy novel? I tried to inform him that i was DMing, and that i did not care what was not in some novel. I guess you could say it is an issue of him having a high charisma score in RL, and me not. As long as the code affects only the Paladin it looks like he's just asking you to keep him in check and penalize him if he slips out of character during the game; probably because he doesn't feel comfortable with penalizing himself - I don't see a problem with docking him XP or taking away his Paladin abilities for a day if he breaks his code.
Nom 02-07-04, 04:09 AM	Historically, the word swear means to "take oath". An oath is a strong promise, often backed up by invoking another power. For example, the court statement "I swear to tell the truth .. so help me God", or "I swear by the soul of my murdered father, you will reach the top alive" (Princess Bride). To misuse or misspeak the name or attributes of a deity is a form of blasphemy, though the term blasphemy has a wider meaning of speaking untruth of a diety. Anything else is covered by the catch-all of uncouth language. So how did "swear" come to mean "uncouth language"? Mainly through expressions like "By God, I've never seen anything like it", which invoke a diety for a rather pointless oath, thus showing that the speaker doesn't really respect their deity much. Back to your Paladin, if his code requires him to not speak blasphemously, then let him (it's a cute RP twist). If he's happy to have you help enforce it, feel free. XP penalties are silly in this case, though temporary cessation of divine abilities would fit nicely. Though I can't figure out why the exclusion about damaging an enemy? Does his god appreciate having his name cheapened when one of his heroes smites evil on his behalf? :confused:
Ilanthe 02-07-04, 07:53 AM	Originally posted by Gellion He used to be the DM, but he deiced to let me try, and i am now the permanent DM. One of his reasons was he said i knew the rules better than he did. I do wonder if you used to give him a hard time, and this is his way of getting back at you :( But anyways... if the group is agreed that you are the DM, then they should respect their own decision and get on with playing. What you need is a player/DM agreement about how disputes are handled. Sit them down as a group, tell them you're concerned about the way disputes disrupt the game. Tell them you want to be fair and if you do make a rules mistake you'll be the first to admit it - but that long drawn out arguments aren't fun for anyone. Basically ask them if they trust you to DM - and get them to agree that they do. It shouldn't be necessary, but you could perhaps introduce a timer. Agree as a houserule that any disruptions/discussions about rules or whatever won't go beyond a certain time limit. Once that limit is up, the game goes on regardless and it can be discussed later if necessary. When it comes to a judgement, that's the DMs call. If you can be bothered find the rule and read it verbatim from the book, then carry on. After a while it shouldn't be necessary because they'll know you'll be right. Alternatively, have others take their turns while the one in dispute has x mins to find the rule to support his argument and show it to you. If he fails your judgement stands. I do think the advice to keep to in-game descriptions is excellent. No need to discuss the mechanics, just let the player know the results of his character's actions. You really don't want to stand and argue when a construct is lumbering towards you :D