Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pobre_Sméagol 11-19-04, 08:36 PM	In this anti-D&D artical I was reading, the guy said: "The level of violence in this make believe world runs high. There is hardly a game in which the players do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery." OK, I'll give him highway robbery, but my players and I have never murdered, tortured, raped or comited arson. Now I'm curious about the rest of you. How often do your players comit any of the things this guy listed? Thanks. -Pobre_Smeagol
Jaziks 11-19-04, 08:45 PM	Wow that guy has my number, I've had everyone of those things occur in my game. Murder is the easy one, when you've got 2 assassins in the party, murders are like that other thing that "happens". Rape, yep! One drow male got too curious inside a temple to Lloth and a heated priestess "took him" against his will. Robbery, well duh. Arson, that was the most fun. We had this town completely robbed and we needed to get rid of all the evidence, which unfortunately for the villagers, included the village :D . Torture, see above statement about Priestess. Well I guess my game has become a statistic for the worse. Sorry to everyone out there who has felt the sting of prejudice because of the games we play.... well actually I'm not because it's a game and anyone who thinks that it contributes to the destruction of civilization is an idiot...(and probably voted for dubya).
Kyaran 11-19-04, 08:54 PM	Put me down for one accidental arson and several frownings upon of highway robbery. Oh, and one PC that got tortured 'off-screen'. We also generally limit the sexual stuff to teasing of barmaids or the fighter that's drooling at said barmaids. Hooray for the BoVD reviving the anti-D&D sentiment of the 80s. :P Personal commentary: Let's all try to refrain from political statements on this one. I think the people here understand that the game is a game, and don't need to be convinced that there are some closed-minded individuals that persecute it as a matter of course.
Hero of Sshamath 11-19-04, 09:02 PM	I have allowed most of those activities happen in my game...but there are always serious consequences, In game of course. I'll have a band of Rangers, Clerics and Paladins hunt them down for "Justice", or have a mob subdue them only to wake up in prison... Part of a fantasy gaming experience is realism...It takes away from the suspension of disbelief if the PC's done worry for their lives and freedom. :rolleyes:
ermedic 11-19-04, 09:09 PM	This largely depends on the type of game that the individual DM runs. There are DMs out there that run games where this kind of stuff occurs. I, however, am not one of them. I prefer my PCs to be heroes battling evil and tend to avoid some of the more graphic stuff. One reason for this is that most of my players have young children whom I'd just as soon not expose to things like rape. Also, call me cliché but I like to see the good guys win in the long run. There's enough exploitation and debauchery in the real world, I don't need to incorporate it into my game. Don't get me wrong, the BBEGs do some pretty bad stuff but I try to keep the descriptions toned down to where the players know what's going on without giving a step-by-step account. I have run evil games in the past but the emphisis has always been on the players not equating self-serving behavior with psychoses. Usually, the PCs are working for an unscrupulous NPC with plans for domination in these types of campaigns. If memory serves, I believe that quote was a religious platform on the inherrant evils of D&D. I tend to have real issues with that type of uninformed fanaticism. As someone who was raised catholic, I've come to terms with the major religious concerns about D&D (and even convinced a priest to join the game for a while). So no, in my games these types of events are far from the norm and are relegated to NPCs actions.
CycloneRanger 11-19-04, 10:17 PM	Arson happens rather frequently... we seem to always be burning something, somehow, for some reason, that belongs to someone else. As for the rest of it, nothing else happens. Except maybe murder, but its usually the bad guys who are axed, and it is usually part of a war or justified ins some other way.
75RD Drum Clip 11-19-04, 11:08 PM	Who gives a troll waste product about what some whiner wrote about D&D and violence? I sure don't. As for how often any of the above mentioned happen IMC. "Conan! What is best in life? Crush the Enemy, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women." This about sums it up for my group.
Maniacal_Cackle 11-19-04, 11:17 PM	because it's a game and anyone who thinks that it contributes to the destruction of civilization is an idiot...(and probably voted for dubya). I would like to point out that experiments have shown that playing violent video games increases aggressiveness in people. I personally think that it's probably smarter to trust these methodical experiments than people who just deny the possibility that things like violent video games really do affect people. Therefore I think it would be wise to consider the possibility that DnD also can influence behaviour to a degree (note that, other than the quoted experiments, this is opinion.) Anyway, on to the point. Murder? Yea, but only of other PC's (for some reason my group loves killing each other...) Rape? I would like to think that none of the people in my group need to even pretend to rape someone, and I would be quite displeased if a DM tried to bring it into a game that I was merely trying to enjoy, and use as escapism, plenty of rape in the real world, thank you. Arson? I don't think we have, but who knows? I have a bad memory. Robbery? Well, never highway robbery... I think... We tend to (try) to use stealth to free people of their worldly possesions Torture? Only once, my character a long time ago. A robbery went wrong :P
Avalongod 11-19-04, 11:18 PM	I suppose it depends on what, exactly constitutes "murder". I suppose breaking into a critters home and killing it for its loot could be considered murder (particularly if you are the critter). Most of the rest I have seen very little of, not none, but very little. I mostly game with people who play in "good" campaigns. I occaissionally play in an "evil" campaing, but at least among adults, I have never seen rape come up (to the credit of D&D gamers). Once when I was playing 1E as a pre-teen (like 12) a couple of us were playing an "evil" campaign with a dude who was slightly older. This dude was messed up and the campaign (we played Keep on the Borderlands of all things) constituted us attacking groups of monsters and slaughtering all their children. The DM (who played an NPC) would have his NPC slice up the females and drink blood from their vivisected female organs. :eek: That was totally messed up and we left that game rather disturbed. :shocked: We did not play with him again. Incidentally many years later he was accused of rape in real life (not sure if he was convicted, I moved to another state by then). I don't think D&D can be held accountable for incidents like that. That is NOT what D&D is about, however because the system is so open, the opportunity is there for people WHO ARE ALREADY F*&#ING CRAZY to mess with it.
Fixxxer 11-19-04, 11:18 PM	OK, I'll give him highway robbery, but my players and I have never murdered, tortured, raped or comited arson. Now I'm curious about the rest of you. How often do your players comit any of the things this guy listed? Rape? No, never done that. The rest of it? Yeah, guilty as charged. Think about it. At it's core, mechanical D&D is about breaking into someone else's house, killing him, his friends and his pets and stealing his property.
ThatDarnCat 11-19-04, 11:48 PM	I haven't had much of that kind of thing in any of my games since I stopped running games for non-adults. Even when I have run 'evil' campaigns we didn't have rampant violence to no purpose. I think that a few bad apples are used to tarnish the reputations of all the rest of us. Just as the horror stories of the 70s, all of which involved drugs, tarnished the hobby long ago. The fact that the author probably couldn't tell D&D from BattleTech doesn't help the matter either.
paradoxmage 11-19-04, 11:57 PM	Its weird but I am surprised that this doesn’t happen in any of my groups games. It happens to be that everyone tends to play legitimate good characters. When the few times murder has happened, the character is always beat down (by the other characters) and taken prisoner to the nearest society with law. Anyone who has played an evil character tends to keep it quiet, doing things without others knowing. But no not once has arson, rape or highway robbery happened. Torture and murder on the other hand has happened when trying to get info from a bad guy. Had a player with a weapon made from material that would take the spirit when the character dies (makes it cheaper to raise the character) trapping it until removed (can’t remember what it was called). Anyway one of the characters made some evil minions (who were very religious) hold the weapon and he would kill them if they wouldn’t answer his questions. In doing this these peoples souls would never reach there god, this was enough for them to start spilling the beans. This in its self is very evil, but the character was CG (even a cleric of tempus at that) and should be a no no. But I would say this is as bad as it gets with my group. But then again we have been playing roleplaying games since first edition D&D.
Pongolyn 11-20-04, 12:22 AM	Hooray for the BoVD reviving the anti-D&D sentiment of the 80s Actually, I'm pretty sure the excerpt above is taken from the infamous Bill Schnoebelen article on D&D, which was written in the 80's. I still see it displayed on a few web pages here and there, referencing 1st edition manuals long since obsolete. It's a hoot.
Gryllmyre 11-20-04, 01:28 AM	If I as a player say, "Surrender or die", and they attack, and I kill them, is that murder? I'm just serving the cause I chose... kingdoms don't have time negotiate with every individual that disagrees with it. Besides, the game would be pretty boring if it was just one large moral discussion. And I'm giving them the option. If they give up, they live. I unequip them and send them on their way. Sometimes, anyway. Some enemies are too intent on completing their goals to negotiate. And if they attack first, my decision is made for me.
A Flying Buddha 11-20-04, 01:40 AM	I would like to point out that experiments have shown that playing violent video games increases aggressiveness in people. And I would like to point out that correlation is not causation :D . First rule of statistics and inherently part of psychological research. Nearly every study mentioned on this topic is exaggerated by the media and anti-video game groups (who primarily arise due to media misrepresentation anyway...). As for my games, only the occaisional accidental housefire. Or the Orc barb tearing down the house... and then dropping a lamp on it.
9mm of Mercy 11-20-04, 03:33 AM	Arson, thievery, murder, torture, break and entry, arson, vandalism, public drunkenness, arson, public urination, assault, summoning of beings from the lower planes in crowded areas, dog-kicking, grand theft auto/ship/horse, necrophilia (don't ask), kidnapping, Regicide, grave robbing, arson, heresy, pimping/prostitution, soliciting, conspiracy, mischief, and arson come to mind. Never rape. It's not so much that it doesn't exist. We all know it happens, and we sometimes allude to it. But never, ever, does it actually HAPPEN in games. I can handle cold-blooded murder, torture, and other such gribblies. But something about rape just sickens on a whole new level.
Cantankerous 11-20-04, 05:43 AM	...murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery Murder, if defined by the writer of the article is indefensible by anyone, he could define self defense as murder if the ideal is set widely enough, but for the rest; I've run more than 1000 RPG sessions (probaly closer to 1150 or so) and since my games tend to be about heroics I'm far from surprised that the players almost never engage in any of the above. So, almost every game of those did decidedly NOT see player participation in such activities. In ANY well run game world there are consequences for such behavior. If there isn't, the DM isn't worth a powdered blow to Hell, he's just running a splat fest, probably from the lack of ability to do differently. D&D is a role playing game, you can't play a role even half way decently in a vaccum. The villains on the other hand are indeed another story. They are susposed to be villanous after all. Anti-D&D control fetishists will never change. They make their opinions based on hear-say and innuendo not even WANTING to know if what they are saying is anything vaguely like correct or not. Still, the amount of base ignorance of this pass time is almost beyond the bounds of believability at times. Isshia
Black Kitten 11-20-04, 06:02 AM	Answer to the question: Guilty to all (my players that is). But then again, if you have the party for it in an evil campaign, this is all part of the deal (at least I think so). It adds to realism and, something I think too, will make more sure that people don't feel connected to the actions of their characters. (which they shouldn't too much anyway, but that's besides the question)
SammasterT 11-20-04, 01:49 PM	In this anti-D&D artical I was reading, the guy said: "The level of violence in this make believe world runs high. There is hardly a game in which the players do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery." OK, I'll give him highway robbery, but my players and I have never murdered, tortured, raped or comited arson. Now I'm curious about the rest of you. How often do your players comit any of the things this guy listed? I've had a player sacrifce a child to a demon, betray his party, murder his friend, and return to civilization to collect the reward due them all. THat should score big "Satanic influence" points with the cretins out there. I would assume that this was written by some kind of conservative, Christian fundamentalist type? Well, try this for a paraphrase ... "The level of violence fostered by this make believe religion runs high. There is hardly a century in which the adherents do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery." Or, replace "religion" with "human being" .... Why is it that folk who neglect the proper, wholistic raising of their offspring, in favour of keeping up with the jones or something, constantly expect media, games, and everything but they themselves to do the job for them ... only to turn around and point a finger of blame when such things fail to raise the kids properly? How can people be so irresponsible and willing to pass the buck? Because it seemed to work in the Old Testament for someone's version of the Almighty? It isn't D&D's, Hollywoods or whatevers job to raise anyones children. Children properly raised and attended to, rather than ignored and appeased with material things, rarely exhibit the degree of pathology necessary for such anti-social behavior as buddy seems to be attributing to the playing D&D. Sorry for the rant, but ...
Draco Strang 11-20-04, 02:12 PM	[QUOTE=pobre_Sméagol]In this anti-D&D artical I was reading, the guy said: "The level of violence in this make believe world runs high. There is hardly a game in which the players do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery." OK, I'll give him highway robbery, but my players and I have never murdered, tortured, raped or comited arson. Now I'm curious about the rest of you. How often do your players comit any of the things this guy listed? OK.....the gentleman in question is John E. Holmes. Actually, he's the guy that wrote the DnD Basic set that just came out...so he's an advocate of the game. He's just telling it like it is folks. Most games have violence, and quite a few have other, darker stuff as well. I wrote a paper on this for english, got a 100, and submitted it to Regdar's Repository....look for it soon. I hope it gets posted.
Draco Strang 11-20-04, 02:15 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure the excerpt above is taken from the infamous Bill Schnoebelen article on D&D, which was written in the 80's. I still see it displayed on a few web pages here and there, referencing 1st edition manuals long since obsolete. It's a hoot. Actually, Bill Schnoebelen updated it a few years ago, right after 3rd edition came out. Now it's a current, contemporary piece of crap.
Steelwill 11-20-04, 02:18 PM	Wow, and it sure is a good thing that none of those acts appear in movies or other entertainment that society endulges in...I mean I can't think of one movie in which murder occurs(oh wait, I mean I can hardly think of one in which it doesn't), but at least rape doesn't occur often(Rob Roy, Time to Kill, Joan of Arc) ok well, arson is at least low in the list, wait no it isn't, umm then at least robbery is low (Spiderman, Rob Roy again, any other superhero movie...) Oh well darn, I guess all those things appear as elements of excitement in most movies, books, and video games. Probably for some silly reason like: "Without displays of great evil there can be no exciting displays of great heroism", but hey what do I know. At least no decent books have all those things, well except The Holy Bible which has all of them. I guess there just ain't no escaping it after all. Hmm well either all forms of entertainment in our society are evil as all get out, or D&D is just as entertaining as anything else. My 2 cents.
Dash Branaghan 11-20-04, 03:45 PM	OK, I'll give him highway robbery, but my players and I have never murdered, tortured, raped or comited arson. Now I'm curious about the rest of you. How often do your players comit any of the things this guy listed? It depends on how you define your terms unfortunately. Having just done a paper on this topic, you have to understand the definitions the author is applying to these terms, which is loaded. Murder - all the time. Anytime they kill something in defence, it is technically murder, but what about the times they have to break into some evil fortress to stop something bad from happening? That is murder. So yes, the individual is correct, if you accept murder as taking another sentient being's life. Torture - It has happened. In some cases, the party deems that it is necessary for information and they utilize it. The difference between the article and the game is the individual intending to suggest that it is used vicariously for pleasure, not for "necessity within the game." Rape - Never. Not even in jest. Arson - Like torture and murder, it happens. It is a sound tactic when going into a building is not an option. Better to have the smoke filled bleary eyed enemies pour out of the building and murder them when they are at their weakest then charge in gung - ho and reckless. However, I'm willing to bet that the suggestion from your article fails to differentiate between destructive arson of burning down, oh, say, an orphanage or a warehouse for insurance fraud, and tactically blowing the hell out of a building like the US recently did in Fallujah. Arson is a tactically sound combat move and my players use it, but they don't burn down buildings for fun. Dash
Lincoln Hills 11-20-04, 04:29 PM	..."There is hardly a game in which the players do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery." Here's your answers from MY DM-perspective, pobre-Smeagol: 1. Murder: Rare (but not unheard of): it's far more common for death to occur in a duelling or wartime situation. 2. Arson: Occasional, usually inadvertent and almost always considered uproariously hilarious by the players. Which is kind of sad, really. 3. Torture: Has never happened in my campaign - which is primarily good aligned. But there have been threats: do those count? 4. Rape: Sorry to disappoint the fundamentalists, but no, this has never happened. For specific lustful details on what did not happen, send a check or money order to... 5. Highway Robbery: It's actually very rare for my PCs ever to set upon somebody with the intention of taking his money. Usually, they're killing him for other reasons, and the money is just frosting on the cake. On second thought, maybe they're committing something worse than robbery. ;)
Blane 11-20-04, 04:48 PM	This is one misguided twonk, the rape sound slike immature players. Also he should go watch a group of lawful good PC's play, what kinda paladin is going to torture murder (maybe slay but that different) commit arson or rape someone?
Cantankerous 11-20-04, 05:37 PM	This is one misguided twonk, the rape sound slike immature players. Also he should go watch a group of lawful good PC's play, what kinda paladin is going to torture murder (maybe slay but that different) commit arson or rape someone? Actually Draco already found out for us that: OK.....the gentleman in question is John E. Holmes. Actually, he's the guy that wrote the DnD Basic set that just came out...so he's an advocate of the game. He's just telling it like it is folks. Most games have violence, and quite a few have other, darker stuff as well. I disagree with his basic premis that There is hardly a game in which the players do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery but I would imagine that being one of the crew that wrote the basic set that he has more than cursory knowledge of the game itself. It sounds like I over-reacted pretty thoroughly too though, so don't feel alone. Isshia
DrWorm 11-20-04, 05:57 PM	...in which the players do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery. Actually I have never even heard of a game where in a player did any of those things in a game. Okay...I may be arguing semantics, but the distinction is an important one becuase some of these looneys have a hard time understanding that there is a clear demarcation between the actions of players and those of their characters. To the point though: Murder- Almost never. I tend to play and DM "good" games and in most cases the PCs are rooting out the D&D version of terrorists, and are generally mandated by a legal authority. Therefor they are not so much murderers as they are deputized law enforcement. Torture- never...there have been PCs that have entertained the idea of "brutal interrogation" but the other PCs always convince them not to. Rape- You try that crap at my table and you are likely to be physically shown the door. No tolerance! Highway Robbery- Again, if this happens it is more in the Robin Hood spirit of things rather than true theivery. My game may seem dull to all you evil gamers, but it is just the way we play.
SammasterT 11-20-04, 06:09 PM	OK.....the gentleman in question is John E. Holmes. Actually, he's the guy that wrote the DnD Basic set that just came out...so he's an advocate of the game. He's just telling it like it is folks. Most games have violence, and quite a few have other, darker stuff as well. Oh. He's an advocate. Whew!! I think that the man isn't telling it like it is at all. As far as I can tell from the one or two line quote, the information is being presented outside of a larger informational context, within which the observation would be seen for what it is --- unduly alarmist. Afterall, I am not at all concerned with murder and rape and mayhem going on in a fantasy game, where most everyone who plays leaves it when the night is done. I'm concerned with the prescence of these things in my community. And I see no correlation being the prescence of these things in my community and the enjoyment of DnD ... even tales with a strongly immoral vein. Such things existed before DnD, and would continue on without it, so DnD is clearly not the/a problem. So, big deal that DnD contains these things. If the guy is an advocate, what point is he trying to make by saying so? Is it just a casual observation the man made, which has itself been taken out of context? Or is there a point to it?
Ty 11-20-04, 06:55 PM	Nope, no arson, torture, rape, highway robbery or premeditated, cold-blooded "murder" as is the legal definition of the same. However, violence is inherent in D&D.
Fixxxer 11-20-04, 07:15 PM	I still fail to see what sort of a point the fundamentalist anti-D&D people are trying to make. D&D didn't make me murder anyone. It never made me rob anyone. It never made me set anyone on fire. I did all of those things without D&D's evil influence. :D
zodiki 11-20-04, 08:35 PM	The level of violence in this make believe world runs high. There is hardly a game in which the players do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery. The level of violence in the real world far surpasses the level of violence in any of my campaigns. Furthermore, my campaigns have something the real world lacks in abundance - justice and accountability.
Fixxxer 11-20-04, 10:45 PM	Furthermore, my campaigns have something the real world lacks in abundance - justice and accountability. ZING! :D
Yade 11-20-04, 10:59 PM	In this anti-D&D artical I was reading, the guy said: "The level of violence in this make believe world runs high. There is hardly a game in which the players do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery." Thanks. -Pobre_SmeagolSounds like you were reading an article about political campaigning in the US. Frankly I think the Xbox reaches more people and is more violent, and that is nothing. D&D does not even rate in the top 10 of the most violent past times out there, I do not fear the stigma of the 80s anymore.
charred 11-21-04, 01:52 AM	I still can't believe how far out of step people can be with reality. Does D&D have all those things in them - depends on the DM, but lets be honest; probably. But, all of those things, rape, arson, murder and the like are also pretty prevalent in reality. People always think everything will corrupt their kids, so we have to reduce the entire country to only seeing and hearing only what is fit for children. What they need to see is that about 15% of the buyers and sellers of narcotics are under 18. Teens are no strangers to the concepts of rape and murder. It is on the news all the time. It has been a centerpoint of dramatic themes from ancient greek and egyptian myth, Homer, Shakespeare and modern storytellers. Your kids already know bout these things. They probably talk about them when they are buying drugs. And there is a reason why these concepts are used. They get attention. Who would play a game or watch a movie about the workday of an ordinary accountant or financial planner where nothing dramatic happens. What a game that would be! You can re-calculate earnings and profits to make the next corporate distribution a return of basis!! But, first, a quest-- the wife forgot to buy groceries. You must chose whether to order pizza, chinese, or do you dare experement with Thai food.... As for the religious angle, I consider myself a good christian. I am not afraid to stand up against something I believe is wrong, and I am sure as hell not apologetic for being christian, Political Correctness be damned. I have read the bible- and I mean the unabridged version that did not have the unpopular parts edited out. I never saw anything that would apply to D&D. As much as I would love to get into a theological discussion of what you should be doing, it would be off topic. I guess the point is, what is their point? I don't see a problem. Maybe if one of your players rps a rapist or something, it could be a red flag that something is wrong with them, but, I don't think D&D did it. Some problems are just hardwired into people. I don't know why, but I would bet my left arm that it is not because of D&D.
Cantankerous 11-21-04, 04:50 AM	I still fail to see what sort of a point the fundamentalist anti-D&D people are trying to make. D&D didn't make me murder anyone. It never made me rob anyone. It never made me set anyone on fire. I did all of those things without D&D's evil influence. Fixxxxxxxxeeerrr, you're not supposed to tell. :banghead: Gaaahhh. Now, take your meds and go sit in the corner. :nonono: Isshia
Fixxxer 11-21-04, 06:22 PM	Now, take your meds and go sit in the corner. Don't worry, I'm medicated. Of course, I had to drink a whole gallon of bug spray before I could watch my hands begin to melt...
Maniacal_Cackle 11-21-04, 09:04 PM	correlation is not causation :D . First rule of statistics and inherently part of psychological research. Nearly every study mentioned on this topic is exaggerated by the media and anti-video game groups (who primarily arise due to media misrepresentation anyway...). While I agree that correlation is not causation, random sampling/random assignment/other good research methods do tend to increase the liklihood of causation. In the experiments I mentioned, it seemed to me, were able to demonstrate that people, after playing violent video games, became more violent. Granted, there is still the possibility of people in general simply becoming more violent while playing a violent video game under the observation of a researcher, but that would suggest that everyone did it if they used random sampling/random assignment/replication/etc. I apologize for being unable to directly quote an experiment, but I turned in my works cited page before I even wrote my first post in this thread. It seemed to me, however, while researching some experiments that had been done, that they could demonstrate that yes there was a link (corelation) and that link could likely be causation due to experimental controls (though no psychological experiment can be absolute, I agree). I would also like to point out that many of these same researchers were able to find positive affects of video games, but that is another subject entirely. That said, however, I definitely agree that any affects from playing DnD would be mild, especially compared to other factors such as parenting, and don't even get me started on genetics (though I obviously couldn't know exactly how large a role any of those play. Edit: And I forgot to mention that I cannot recall any experiments showing lasting violent tendencies or the like... Simply experiments that showed short-term effects. So the odds of lasting impressions that could influence us greatly is even less.