A question of balance... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question of balance... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord Dastir
10-18-05, 09:29 AM Our group (only 3 people) is currently creating 12th level (10th lvl Drow) characters for an upcoming adventure in the underdark. I will be playing in the first part of the adventure, while the guy who is DM'ing will be playing his char as an NPC. After he is done with his adventure, I will be taking the reins as DM and NPC'ing my char.

An no, I DO NOT want this thread to devolve into a discussion as to the good & bad about DMPC's. All PC's are being created at the same time, and the next DM has veto over my PC and I have veto over his. When you only have three people in a group, you make do. So please, spare me the whole "DMPC's are evil" thing.

The question I have is this:

One of the players (the one who will not be DM'ing these chars) is concerned that his Fighter/Weapon Master is made completely uselss by the Cleric/Sword Dancer and the Rogue/Wizard/Geometer. His claim is that WotC keeps publishing new material for spellcasters and making them more and more powerful, while the fighter is simply left out to be nerfed.

So, the DM is proposing the following: Making epic feats available to the fighter character with reduced or removed prerequisites. Basically, this would allow this character to get Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Devestating Crit or some similar feat by about 12th level.

I will be the first one to claim that by 10th level, fighters are significantly overshadowed by spellcasters, especially Clerics who can wear the same armor, wield the same weapons, have a decent BAB, decent HP, and can cast a fantastic array of spells including healing and some of the best buffs in the game. However, I am concerned about the impact this ruling would have on game balance. Any comments?

If you think this is overboard, what else would you suggest to alleviate this player's concerns?

TIA
celtredleg
10-18-05, 09:57 AM :) DM pcs are evil :) Just had to say it.

Actually, I have not had the problem you describe, a well thought out fighter with a feat set that works togather makes a very nasty one one one opponent. Single class ftrs are very common IMG because of this.

Yes, I think epic feeats for a 12th level ftr are going to overpower him. Something like Dire charge can make him the dominater of the battle. That statement made, a ftr is less overpowering than a caster. After all, he can only kill what he can reach. he cant throw widened spells that cover half the battle area.

Another thing that amps up a ftr is action points. I use the system from Black company setting, but they make a pure fighter a terror.
HamHam
10-18-05, 10:03 AM It shouldn't be a problem, and frankly you won't know till you try it.
prettyripples
10-18-05, 10:51 AM There are two answers to that:

If you take the houserule to the CO boards, or to any competent min-maxer, they'll almost certainly turn your game to chaos if you're chucking out epic feats early.

However, I'm guessing you're only even thinking about this because you trust the guy not to go overboard. In which case... how much harm can it do?

I'd say give it a shot, but make it clear to the guy beforehand that it's (probably) just for this campaign, and that if it turns out to be too much of an advantage then he might have to cut back a bit... for example turning Dire Charge into "Dire Charge 3/day" or something.
gleep
10-18-05, 10:54 AM One of the players (the one who will not be DM'ing these chars) is concerned that his Fighter/Weapon Master is made completely uselss by the Cleric/Sword Dancer and the Rogue/Wizard/Geometer. His claim is that WotC keeps publishing new material for spellcasters and making them more and more powerful, while the fighter is simply left out to be nerfed.

So, the DM is proposing the following: Making epic feats available to the fighter character with reduced or removed prerequisites. Basically, this would allow this character to get Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Devestating Crit or some similar feat by about 12th level.

I'd take a closer look at the fighter's equipment and feat choices. If he's feeling that underwealmed compared to the others there may simply be some bad choices. If there isn't, I'd take a look at how the PC's stats compare to the others. There's also the option of finetuning his base class a bit. For example, if he never wears heavy armor or uses a tower shield, and doesn't plan on doing so, allow him to swap out those two feats for something he finds more useful. Then there's the option of allowing a couple extra normal feats (non-epic), letting him have max hit points, or something else to let him feel more equal.

There's also the possability he hasn't really thought things through about his character. For example, he should have the best melee attack bonus of the group, with a good weapon and a couple feats making it even higher than the others. Using power attack consistently means that he not only hits more often, but does more damage, than the other characters. A decent compound bow with a high strength modifier means a lot of ranged damage.

Then add in tactics with his teammates. Even a mediocre fighter becomes an engine of destruction with a few buffing spells cast on him.

:D

--gleep
Lord Ian Stark
10-18-05, 11:21 AM I'd take a closer look at the fighter's equipment and feat choices. If he's feeling that underwealmed compared to the others there may simply be some bad choices. If there isn't, I'd take a look at how the PC's stats compare to the others.

I agree. The one thing I can say is Weapon Master has a lot of feat requirements and to me there are too many that don't help the concept.

I am against the allowance of the Epic feats as I think that is too much. This guy complaining that spell casters are more powerful then melee fighters is correct to a point. Any person that can control magic will be more powerful than someone who can't IMO.

No one is stopping the guy from taking a few spellcaster levels if he thinks that's all that makes people uber. However if he doesn't want to be a spellcaster than so be it. The classes aren't supposed to be equal to eachother beyond the class tables IMO. After that it depends on your build choices and item IMO.

If he loathes magic so much have him take a look at the Occult Slayer from the Complete Warrior. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Dastir 10-18-05, 09:29 AM	Our group (only 3 people) is currently creating 12th level (10th lvl Drow) characters for an upcoming adventure in the underdark. I will be playing in the first part of the adventure, while the guy who is DM'ing will be playing his char as an NPC. After he is done with his adventure, I will be taking the reins as DM and NPC'ing my char. An no, I DO NOT want this thread to devolve into a discussion as to the good & bad about DMPC's. All PC's are being created at the same time, and the next DM has veto over my PC and I have veto over his. When you only have three people in a group, you make do. So please, spare me the whole "DMPC's are evil" thing. The question I have is this: One of the players (the one who will not be DM'ing these chars) is concerned that his Fighter/Weapon Master is made completely uselss by the Cleric/Sword Dancer and the Rogue/Wizard/Geometer. His claim is that WotC keeps publishing new material for spellcasters and making them more and more powerful, while the fighter is simply left out to be nerfed. So, the DM is proposing the following: Making epic feats available to the fighter character with reduced or removed prerequisites. Basically, this would allow this character to get Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Devestating Crit or some similar feat by about 12th level. I will be the first one to claim that by 10th level, fighters are significantly overshadowed by spellcasters, especially Clerics who can wear the same armor, wield the same weapons, have a decent BAB, decent HP, and can cast a fantastic array of spells including healing and some of the best buffs in the game. However, I am concerned about the impact this ruling would have on game balance. Any comments? If you think this is overboard, what else would you suggest to alleviate this player's concerns? TIA
celtredleg 10-18-05, 09:57 AM	:) DM pcs are evil :) Just had to say it. Actually, I have not had the problem you describe, a well thought out fighter with a feat set that works togather makes a very nasty one one one opponent. Single class ftrs are very common IMG because of this. Yes, I think epic feeats for a 12th level ftr are going to overpower him. Something like Dire charge can make him the dominater of the battle. That statement made, a ftr is less overpowering than a caster. After all, he can only kill what he can reach. he cant throw widened spells that cover half the battle area. Another thing that amps up a ftr is action points. I use the system from Black company setting, but they make a pure fighter a terror.
HamHam 10-18-05, 10:03 AM	It shouldn't be a problem, and frankly you won't know till you try it.
prettyripples 10-18-05, 10:51 AM	There are two answers to that: If you take the houserule to the CO boards, or to any competent min-maxer, they'll almost certainly turn your game to chaos if you're chucking out epic feats early. However, I'm guessing you're only even thinking about this because you trust the guy not to go overboard. In which case... how much harm can it do? I'd say give it a shot, but make it clear to the guy beforehand that it's (probably) just for this campaign, and that if it turns out to be too much of an advantage then he might have to cut back a bit... for example turning Dire Charge into "Dire Charge 3/day" or something.
gleep 10-18-05, 10:54 AM	One of the players (the one who will not be DM'ing these chars) is concerned that his Fighter/Weapon Master is made completely uselss by the Cleric/Sword Dancer and the Rogue/Wizard/Geometer. His claim is that WotC keeps publishing new material for spellcasters and making them more and more powerful, while the fighter is simply left out to be nerfed. So, the DM is proposing the following: Making epic feats available to the fighter character with reduced or removed prerequisites. Basically, this would allow this character to get Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Devestating Crit or some similar feat by about 12th level. I'd take a closer look at the fighter's equipment and feat choices. If he's feeling that underwealmed compared to the others there may simply be some bad choices. If there isn't, I'd take a look at how the PC's stats compare to the others. There's also the option of finetuning his base class a bit. For example, if he never wears heavy armor or uses a tower shield, and doesn't plan on doing so, allow him to swap out those two feats for something he finds more useful. Then there's the option of allowing a couple extra normal feats (non-epic), letting him have max hit points, or something else to let him feel more equal. There's also the possability he hasn't really thought things through about his character. For example, he should have the best melee attack bonus of the group, with a good weapon and a couple feats making it even higher than the others. Using power attack consistently means that he not only hits more often, but does more damage, than the other characters. A decent compound bow with a high strength modifier means a lot of ranged damage. Then add in tactics with his teammates. Even a mediocre fighter becomes an engine of destruction with a few buffing spells cast on him. :D --gleep
Lord Ian Stark 10-18-05, 11:21 AM	I'd take a closer look at the fighter's equipment and feat choices. If he's feeling that underwealmed compared to the others there may simply be some bad choices. If there isn't, I'd take a look at how the PC's stats compare to the others. I agree. The one thing I can say is Weapon Master has a lot of feat requirements and to me there are too many that don't help the concept. I am against the allowance of the Epic feats as I think that is too much. This guy complaining that spell casters are more powerful then melee fighters is correct to a point. Any person that can control magic will be more powerful than someone who can't IMO. No one is stopping the guy from taking a few spellcaster levels if he thinks that's all that makes people uber. However if he doesn't want to be a spellcaster than so be it. The classes aren't supposed to be equal to eachother beyond the class tables IMO. After that it depends on your build choices and item IMO. If he loathes magic so much have him take a look at the Occult Slayer from the Complete Warrior. ;)