A question of points [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question of points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mirage_1
05-09-06, 08:54 AM I am considering allowing players to choose how many points to build their stats with, with a LA for more points.

Off top of head:

30 pts = +0 LA (this is our standard for the group, regardless of who DM's)
40 pts = +1 LA
50 pts = +2 LA
60 pts = +3 LA

other than pulling numbers out of thin air, is their any guidelines for anything of this nature?
Leilond
05-09-06, 09:19 AM It doesn't look like a great idea for me... 30 points are a bit "high" for a campaign... you can create a 14-14-14-14-12-10 character that sound a bit too much
Using the "points" like "level adjustement" look like even worse
Mirage_1
05-09-06, 09:23 AM 30 points isn't the question, we use it, it works, and works well. Has been about equivalent of 4d6 drop lowest.

Why do you think extra points for LA is bad, seems rather logical, and the basis for a lot of LA races out there
Jarrad
05-09-06, 09:39 AM Doesn't seem deeply unreasonable, but why go with the higher-powered point buys in the first place? If it's so that your characters are a bit tougher, then imposing level adjustments will - if done correctly - completely negate the point. I suppose it could work for melee types, but spellcasters will probably be heartily wishing they hadn't sacrificed the level later on.

It all depends how you run your games, really. I actually let a group use 5d6, drop two: however, I run a low-magic, low-cash campaign and the party are typically very "under-equipped" for their level with the disparity increasing the more powerful they get. Under those circumstances, being able to rely on your own innate abilities to overcome encounters of your level is not only useful, it's essential.

A 32-point buy is pretty standard; lots of people like them, lots of people don't, whatever works for you and your group is cool. I quite like my PC's being pretty extraordinary compared to run-of-the-mill folks, other groups prefer to have their PC's much closer to the middle of the bell curve for stats.

As for whether there are any guidelines for this sort of thing, I can't find any ability-plus-to-level-adjustment correlation in the SRD, but if memory serves there are some detailed explanations for how monster CR's are determined in Savage Species, which might be of help.
Leilond
05-09-06, 09:41 AM Because i think it doesn't fit in anyway with the 3ed rules and can easly become a matter of unbalance
If your player want Strenght 25 at 1st level I will simply applay the same modification to the "opponent stats"... letting them fight against Str 20 goblins and Wisdom 28 goblin shamans
Mirage_1
05-09-06, 09:47 AM Doesn't seem deeply unreasonable, but why go with the higher-powered point buys in the first place? If it's so that your characters are a bit tougher, then imposing level adjustments will - if done correctly - completely negate the point. I suppose it could work for melee types, but spellcasters will probably be heartily wishing they hadn't sacrificed the level later on.

that's what I'm aiming for. In generally, I want it to be a wash whether you do this or not. Some like to see the impressive stats, letting them do this lets that happen, but keeps the party balanced

A 32-point buy is pretty standard; lots of people like them, lots of people don't, whatever works for you and your group is cool. I quite like my PC's being pretty extraordinary compared to run-of-the-mill folks, other groups prefer to have their PC's much closer to the middle of the bell curve for stats.

I have no problems adjusting encounters to suit the party level, so I have no qualms allowing higher points.

In practice, 30 is low enough that I don't have any balance problems (too high can lead to glass jaw characters as their "power level" is not matched with base ability), but high enough that the players have a good deal of flexibility

but if memory serves there are some detailed explanations for how monster CR's are determined in Savage Species, which might be of help.

thanks
Mirage_1
05-09-06, 09:48 AM Because i think it doesn't fit in anyway with the 3ed rules and can easly become a matter of unbalance
If your player want Strenght 25 at 1st level I will simply applay the same modification to the "opponent stats"... letting them fight against Str 20 goblins and Wisdom 28 goblin shamans

let it go......
orionm42
05-09-06, 09:48 AM 30 pts = +0 LA (this is our standard for the group, regardless of who DM's)
40 pts = +1 LA
50 pts = +2 LA
60 pts = +3 LA

I don't have my PHB with me, so I am not sure what stats you could buy with 60 points...However, I think you could get 3 or 4 18s in key attributes.

My point is, assume you have a party of four adventurers and they all use 60 point buy. They end up with 4 attributes at 18 or above after racial adjustments. The problem is they still only have 15 (or so) HP or less. If you send them up against a CR4 monster...they'll get clobbered.

Playable monsters with high level adjustments usually have special traits / characteristics that will help compensate for lower hit points. They also usually start with a certain number of racial hit dice to somewhat mitigate the low HP problem.

If you apply a +3LA to a first level party, you will have great difficulty keeping them alive at low levels.
Alynn
05-09-06, 09:53 AM Just curious, could someone use a LA+2 race, and use 30 points to build their character, another use a LA+1 and 40 point buy and everyone else use a 50 point buy? This is the kind of stuff that you should consider when trying to come up with alternate systems such as this... is 10 more points equal to a single LA.

30 = 14,14,14,14,14,8 (+9 total)
40 = 16,16,15,14,14,8 (+11 total)
50 = 16,16,16,16,16,8 (+14 total)
60 = 18,17,16,16,16,9(+15 total)

Assuming they want to max the effectiveness of their point buy and keeping a dump stat. It will definately be a high powered game (not that that is bad, I had a 4d6 drop lowest campaign where the pb ran around an average of 45 points).

Just something to think about...
Mirage_1
05-09-06, 09:53 AM I don't have my PHB with me, so I am not sure what stats you could buy with 60 points...However, I think you could get 3 or 4 18s in key attributes.

My point is, assume you have a party of four adventurers and they all use 60 point buy. They end up with 4 attributes at 18 or above after racial adjustments. The problem is they still only have 15 (or so) HP or less. If you send them up against a CR4 monster...they'll get clobbered.

Playable monsters with high level adjustments usually have special traits / characteristics that will help compensate for lower hit points. They also usually start with a certain number of racial hit dice to somewhat mitigate the low HP problem.

If you apply a +3LA to a first level party, you will have great difficulty keeping them alive at low levels.

ahhh...already thought of that.....one rule I have is that HD cannot be less than 1/2 ECL
Mirage_1
05-09-06, 10:00 AM Just curious, could someone use a LA+2 race, and use 30 points to build their character, another use a LA+1 and 40 point buy and everyone else use a 50 point buy?

yup, hence why I was looking for the feedback on the LA's. I can run for just about any power level of the party. My only concern of balance is whether characters are balanced in relation to the other characters in the game.

is 10 more points equal to a single LA.

this is the question I am looking for feedback on :-)
orionm42
05-09-06, 10:25 AM this is the question I am looking for feedback on :-)

My opinion is that a 40 point buy might be worth +1. However, is a 60 point buy worth a +3 LA? IMO, no!

To justify the +3 LA, I think you need a whole lot more than good attributes. For example, consider the Half-Dragon template (+3LA). It has the following attribute bonuses...

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2.

In addition, it also gets a one-step HD increase, a fly speed if larger or larger, natural attacks (including a bite which can be used when wielding a weapon), a breath weapon, darkvision, and certain immunities (including immunity to sleep and paralysis).

Other +2 / +3 LA monsters have other special qualities which add to high stats (e.g. damage reduction, spell resistance, spell like abilities, etc.).

I just don’t think the point-buy / LA progression is linear.
Mirage_1
05-09-06, 10:32 AM I just don’t think the point-buy / LA progression is lineal.

I see your point. Any suggestions?

Perhaps for each +1 LA you get +1 to all stats, but still restricted to no stat being higher than 18 before racial...sort of a paragon template one could say. This would basically decrease the cost to get the high stats, but not allow concentration into any 1 area.
orionm42
05-09-06, 11:40 AM I see your point. Any suggestions?

I guess I'm not sure. I just don't think stats alone will justify a level adjustment higher than +1 or +2. Additionally, if you do not allow scores above 18 before racial adjustments, I think the LA would be +1 at most, no matter what the point buy. This is because some players will of necessity spend points to increase attributes that are meaningless for them. For example, if you were creating a dwarf fighter, he would naturally want a high strength and constitution. He would spend 32 points bringing those stats to 18. After which, he still has 28 points to spend. Where will he put them? Well, a dexterity above 15 likely won't help him much if he plans on wearing heavy armor. Additionally, the Dex of 15 would be sufficient to allow him to take two weapon fighting, whirlwind attack, improved grapple, etc. So if he spends 8 points for the Dex of 15, he still has 20 points left. Next, he would need an intelligence of 13 so he could use the combat expertise chain. So now, he has essentially all of the scores he "needs" to secure most fighter appropriate feats, but he still has 15 points to use. For a fighter, I believe increasing stats above those mentioned is superfluous and would not increase his effectiveness.

Of course, characters like monks and rogues can benefit from more high scores. But again, I am not sure pumping up non-key attributes really improves effectiveness enough to justify a +2 or +3 LA.

I guess if I was looking to create a high power campaign without savage species or loads of prestige classes, I would consider allowing the players to select one special quality for each +1 LA (limit of 2 selections). Choices might include, for example:

Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels.
Damage reduction of +5 which can be overcome by weapons with one particular alignment
or material, combined with a +4 natural armor adjustment.
Spell like abilities granting a few use limited, but very useful, spells (e.g. invisibility)
Immunity to certain types of energy attacks.

I haven’t really thought through the implications of all of the above, but they might allow for some additional customization while keeping LAs reasonable.
Nom
05-10-06, 11:05 AM Taking 25 points as the benchmark, it can be shown that somewhere in the region of 33-35 points is roughly +1 LA.

For comparsion, 1 level of fighter typically grants:
1 HD, for d10 (5.5)+Con hp
+1 BAB, +0.5 Fort, +0.33 Ref, Will
2+Int Skill points, 0.5 bonus feats, 0.33 regular feats, 0.25 ability score points

If we assume that 4 of the extra 8 points are spent at 2-1 and the remaining 4 at 1-1, then we get +1 to 3 ability scores. This might represent:
+1 attack, +1 AC, +1 1-2 saves, +1 boost to many skills, misc benefits

You do about the same on attack, better on AC and saves, likely better on skills, and trade off the misc benefits vs the feats. The main loss is the HD.

The problem is that the benefit isn't linear. Ability scores grant diminishing returns for the points spent. Thus, while 8-10 extra points is +1, you'd need a further 12-16 points to be worth a +2. I wouldn't go beyond the +2.

The other problem is that multiple attribute dependent (MAD) classes (such as paladin and monk) can milk those extra points far more effectively than SAD (single attribute dependent) classes. A mere 28 points is enough for the extremely skewed 18-14-14-8-8-8 array. More points after that merely flesh out the extra scores. In contrast, MAD classes are designed around the idea that you won't have good scores in everything and thus you get stacking benefits from multiple lesser scores (eg Monk Wis + Dex to AC, Pal Cha + just about everything); these character types gain a lot more from "fleshing out the extra scores".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mirage_1 05-09-06, 08:54 AM	I am considering allowing players to choose how many points to build their stats with, with a LA for more points. Off top of head: 30 pts = +0 LA (this is our standard for the group, regardless of who DM's) 40 pts = +1 LA 50 pts = +2 LA 60 pts = +3 LA other than pulling numbers out of thin air, is their any guidelines for anything of this nature?
Leilond 05-09-06, 09:19 AM	It doesn't look like a great idea for me... 30 points are a bit "high" for a campaign... you can create a 14-14-14-14-12-10 character that sound a bit too much Using the "points" like "level adjustement" look like even worse
Mirage_1 05-09-06, 09:23 AM	30 points isn't the question, we use it, it works, and works well. Has been about equivalent of 4d6 drop lowest. Why do you think extra points for LA is bad, seems rather logical, and the basis for a lot of LA races out there
Jarrad 05-09-06, 09:39 AM	Doesn't seem deeply unreasonable, but why go with the higher-powered point buys in the first place? If it's so that your characters are a bit tougher, then imposing level adjustments will - if done correctly - completely negate the point. I suppose it could work for melee types, but spellcasters will probably be heartily wishing they hadn't sacrificed the level later on. It all depends how you run your games, really. I actually let a group use 5d6, drop two: however, I run a low-magic, low-cash campaign and the party are typically very "under-equipped" for their level with the disparity increasing the more powerful they get. Under those circumstances, being able to rely on your own innate abilities to overcome encounters of your level is not only useful, it's essential. A 32-point buy is pretty standard; lots of people like them, lots of people don't, whatever works for you and your group is cool. I quite like my PC's being pretty extraordinary compared to run-of-the-mill folks, other groups prefer to have their PC's much closer to the middle of the bell curve for stats. As for whether there are any guidelines for this sort of thing, I can't find any ability-plus-to-level-adjustment correlation in the SRD, but if memory serves there are some detailed explanations for how monster CR's are determined in Savage Species, which might be of help.
Leilond 05-09-06, 09:41 AM	Because i think it doesn't fit in anyway with the 3ed rules and can easly become a matter of unbalance If your player want Strenght 25 at 1st level I will simply applay the same modification to the "opponent stats"... letting them fight against Str 20 goblins and Wisdom 28 goblin shamans
Mirage_1 05-09-06, 09:47 AM	Doesn't seem deeply unreasonable, but why go with the higher-powered point buys in the first place? If it's so that your characters are a bit tougher, then imposing level adjustments will - if done correctly - completely negate the point. I suppose it could work for melee types, but spellcasters will probably be heartily wishing they hadn't sacrificed the level later on. that's what I'm aiming for. In generally, I want it to be a wash whether you do this or not. Some like to see the impressive stats, letting them do this lets that happen, but keeps the party balanced A 32-point buy is pretty standard; lots of people like them, lots of people don't, whatever works for you and your group is cool. I quite like my PC's being pretty extraordinary compared to run-of-the-mill folks, other groups prefer to have their PC's much closer to the middle of the bell curve for stats. I have no problems adjusting encounters to suit the party level, so I have no qualms allowing higher points. In practice, 30 is low enough that I don't have any balance problems (too high can lead to glass jaw characters as their "power level" is not matched with base ability), but high enough that the players have a good deal of flexibility but if memory serves there are some detailed explanations for how monster CR's are determined in Savage Species, which might be of help. thanks
Mirage_1 05-09-06, 09:48 AM	Because i think it doesn't fit in anyway with the 3ed rules and can easly become a matter of unbalance If your player want Strenght 25 at 1st level I will simply applay the same modification to the "opponent stats"... letting them fight against Str 20 goblins and Wisdom 28 goblin shamans let it go......
orionm42 05-09-06, 09:48 AM	30 pts = +0 LA (this is our standard for the group, regardless of who DM's) 40 pts = +1 LA 50 pts = +2 LA 60 pts = +3 LA I don't have my PHB with me, so I am not sure what stats you could buy with 60 points...However, I think you could get 3 or 4 18s in key attributes. My point is, assume you have a party of four adventurers and they all use 60 point buy. They end up with 4 attributes at 18 or above after racial adjustments. The problem is they still only have 15 (or so) HP or less. If you send them up against a CR4 monster...they'll get clobbered. Playable monsters with high level adjustments usually have special traits / characteristics that will help compensate for lower hit points. They also usually start with a certain number of racial hit dice to somewhat mitigate the low HP problem. If you apply a +3LA to a first level party, you will have great difficulty keeping them alive at low levels.
Alynn 05-09-06, 09:53 AM	Just curious, could someone use a LA+2 race, and use 30 points to build their character, another use a LA+1 and 40 point buy and everyone else use a 50 point buy? This is the kind of stuff that you should consider when trying to come up with alternate systems such as this... is 10 more points equal to a single LA. 30 = 14,14,14,14,14,8 (+9 total) 40 = 16,16,15,14,14,8 (+11 total) 50 = 16,16,16,16,16,8 (+14 total) 60 = 18,17,16,16,16,9(+15 total) Assuming they want to max the effectiveness of their point buy and keeping a dump stat. It will definately be a high powered game (not that that is bad, I had a 4d6 drop lowest campaign where the pb ran around an average of 45 points). Just something to think about...
Mirage_1 05-09-06, 09:53 AM	I don't have my PHB with me, so I am not sure what stats you could buy with 60 points...However, I think you could get 3 or 4 18s in key attributes. My point is, assume you have a party of four adventurers and they all use 60 point buy. They end up with 4 attributes at 18 or above after racial adjustments. The problem is they still only have 15 (or so) HP or less. If you send them up against a CR4 monster...they'll get clobbered. Playable monsters with high level adjustments usually have special traits / characteristics that will help compensate for lower hit points. They also usually start with a certain number of racial hit dice to somewhat mitigate the low HP problem. If you apply a +3LA to a first level party, you will have great difficulty keeping them alive at low levels. ahhh...already thought of that.....one rule I have is that HD cannot be less than 1/2 ECL
Mirage_1 05-09-06, 10:00 AM	Just curious, could someone use a LA+2 race, and use 30 points to build their character, another use a LA+1 and 40 point buy and everyone else use a 50 point buy? yup, hence why I was looking for the feedback on the LA's. I can run for just about any power level of the party. My only concern of balance is whether characters are balanced in relation to the other characters in the game. is 10 more points equal to a single LA. this is the question I am looking for feedback on :-)
orionm42 05-09-06, 10:25 AM	this is the question I am looking for feedback on :-) My opinion is that a 40 point buy might be worth +1. However, is a 60 point buy worth a +3 LA? IMO, no! To justify the +3 LA, I think you need a whole lot more than good attributes. For example, consider the Half-Dragon template (+3LA). It has the following attribute bonuses... Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2. In addition, it also gets a one-step HD increase, a fly speed if larger or larger, natural attacks (including a bite which can be used when wielding a weapon), a breath weapon, darkvision, and certain immunities (including immunity to sleep and paralysis). Other +2 / +3 LA monsters have other special qualities which add to high stats (e.g. damage reduction, spell resistance, spell like abilities, etc.). I just don’t think the point-buy / LA progression is linear.
Mirage_1 05-09-06, 10:32 AM	I just don’t think the point-buy / LA progression is lineal. I see your point. Any suggestions? Perhaps for each +1 LA you get +1 to all stats, but still restricted to no stat being higher than 18 before racial...sort of a paragon template one could say. This would basically decrease the cost to get the high stats, but not allow concentration into any 1 area.
orionm42 05-09-06, 11:40 AM	I see your point. Any suggestions? I guess I'm not sure. I just don't think stats alone will justify a level adjustment higher than +1 or +2. Additionally, if you do not allow scores above 18 before racial adjustments, I think the LA would be +1 at most, no matter what the point buy. This is because some players will of necessity spend points to increase attributes that are meaningless for them. For example, if you were creating a dwarf fighter, he would naturally want a high strength and constitution. He would spend 32 points bringing those stats to 18. After which, he still has 28 points to spend. Where will he put them? Well, a dexterity above 15 likely won't help him much if he plans on wearing heavy armor. Additionally, the Dex of 15 would be sufficient to allow him to take two weapon fighting, whirlwind attack, improved grapple, etc. So if he spends 8 points for the Dex of 15, he still has 20 points left. Next, he would need an intelligence of 13 so he could use the combat expertise chain. So now, he has essentially all of the scores he "needs" to secure most fighter appropriate feats, but he still has 15 points to use. For a fighter, I believe increasing stats above those mentioned is superfluous and would not increase his effectiveness. Of course, characters like monks and rogues can benefit from more high scores. But again, I am not sure pumping up non-key attributes really improves effectiveness enough to justify a +2 or +3 LA. I guess if I was looking to create a high power campaign without savage species or loads of prestige classes, I would consider allowing the players to select one special quality for each +1 LA (limit of 2 selections). Choices might include, for example: Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels. Damage reduction of +5 which can be overcome by weapons with one particular alignment or material, combined with a +4 natural armor adjustment. Spell like abilities granting a few use limited, but very useful, spells (e.g. invisibility) Immunity to certain types of energy attacks. I haven’t really thought through the implications of all of the above, but they might allow for some additional customization while keeping LAs reasonable.
Nom 05-10-06, 11:05 AM	Taking 25 points as the benchmark, it can be shown that somewhere in the region of 33-35 points is roughly +1 LA. For comparsion, 1 level of fighter typically grants: 1 HD, for d10 (5.5)+Con hp +1 BAB, +0.5 Fort, +0.33 Ref, Will 2+Int Skill points, 0.5 bonus feats, 0.33 regular feats, 0.25 ability score points If we assume that 4 of the extra 8 points are spent at 2-1 and the remaining 4 at 1-1, then we get +1 to 3 ability scores. This might represent: +1 attack, +1 AC, +1 1-2 saves, +1 boost to many skills, misc benefits You do about the same on attack, better on AC and saves, likely better on skills, and trade off the misc benefits vs the feats. The main loss is the HD. The problem is that the benefit isn't linear. Ability scores grant diminishing returns for the points spent. Thus, while 8-10 extra points is +1, you'd need a further 12-16 points to be worth a +2. I wouldn't go beyond the +2. The other problem is that multiple attribute dependent (MAD) classes (such as paladin and monk) can milk those extra points far more effectively than SAD (single attribute dependent) classes. A mere 28 points is enough for the extremely skewed 18-14-14-8-8-8 array. More points after that merely flesh out the extra scores. In contrast, MAD classes are designed around the idea that you won't have good scores in everything and thus you get stacking benefits from multiple lesser scores (eg Monk Wis + Dex to AC, Pal Cha + just about everything); these character types gain a lot more from "fleshing out the extra scores".