A question on CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question on CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
superjesusfromthefuture
05-06-07, 09:50 PM I understand the rules on CR, a cr 5 monster is an average encounter for a party of 4, 5th level chars. But, is any CR5 encounter ok for any average 5th level group of players?

Let me give an example:
Party members of a Human Crusader, Human rogue/sword sage, dragon shaman (unknown race... dont ask...) and a human cleric of Pelor. Most players actually have above average stats and life (they can roll good sometimes). they enter a large room with a high ceiling (its an extreamly dark underground dungeon) and they fail their spot and listen to notice the manticore perched up on a ledge (once again its high up and very dark). The rogue begins searching a dead body on the ground to see what it has in its pockets and the rest of the players dont want to set off any traps so they keep watch and stay behind the rogue. At this point the manticore gets hungry and is itching for a fight so it unleased a volley of spikes at the closest person (rogue) as it flies down. The 6 spikes (taking a standard action to launch) end up killing the rogue outright! (beyond -10) I, not wanting to kill 2 members in a fight decide that the manticore should fly down and get into hand to hand instead of loosing another volley of spikes (the party lacks ranged attacks). One round it dies. Didnt get more than a single bite attack. After the combat the party says that "You should not be throwing monsters at us that could kill us in one hit!" i say its CR5 encounter no matter the damage it can deal in a standard action. So i had them continue with no further argument. Were they correct, or are they just angry that their best char died before Init. was even rolled? I will gladly compensate them if it turns out that I should be wrong. I have been DMing for about 4 years now (almost weekly) and havent really thought about this before.

Thanks
Toloran
05-06-07, 10:16 PM Quick Point: Did you remember to roll for each spike?

On CR: An equal CR encounter vs an average party should consume about 1/4 of their resources.

On Encounter Level: A single CR 5 monster and nothing else is generally a EL 5 encounter. However, in the situation you described, that wasn't the case because the Manticore had two advantages: 1) Suprise because it was hidden in a dark cavern and 2) It was a flying enemy in a large room where it could use its ranged abilities to its fullest.

What happened in your adventure was a fluke and these things happen some times. An enemy, just like a player, can randomly get a lucky crit and roll max damage and kill their opponent. In this case, the manticore happened to attack the squishiest member of your party (Lowest FF AC, Lowest HD, etc). Also, your party was a bit foolish for standing back from the rogue like that (which, in some situations, is a good idea but in this case it was the wrong call).
trapspringer
05-06-07, 10:19 PM A manticore is pretty hoss for a CR5.

6d8+12, huh? That's definantly a potential dead-guy scenario, right?

Lesse'.

So they gotta hit, but they have a +8 to each attack. So let's say the party is moderately well equipped, and the first target is a rogue with an AC of 19.

that's about a 50/50 to-hit.

So 3d8+6 damage initially. That averages out to 21.95 damage (with criticals) and caps out at thirty damage (without criticals).

He could do this four times, but based on the guidlines presented in the DMG, creatures don't usually consume more than something like... I dunno', half their resources on a party ('cuz the might need it later / have already used it). Further, the MM specifically states it is only likely to make use of this (admittedly extremely effective) tactic at the start of the fight, then proceed to charge.

The average level five rogue-dude with a con of 14 would be battin' about 30 hp, or 39 damage prior to death.

It's statistically improbable for what happened to happen, but the numbers say it isn't unreasonable to see something like that once every five or six maticore fights given an appropriately weak rogue.

What essentially happened was a rogue-fight (which is a lot like a spot-check competition, but with lots of pointy things). The other part of that "Appropriate challenge for a party of four" thing is "a 50/50 encounter for a single character of that level."

The rogue lost his 50/50 competition when he failed that spot check. Had the positions been reversed and the rogue well built, an equal and opposite scenario would probably unfold (rapidshot, sneak attack = +9 to-hit, or 70%, 6d6 sneak attack +2d8 longbow +5 miscellaneous = 35 damage). Were the rogue to win initiative, that's a match.
Tiarn
05-06-07, 10:27 PM Not that I advocated player death, but I didn't see anything that you did wrong. True, CR does increase a bit if the situation is advantageous to the monster, (such as high ground, ambush, etc) but even then they should still be able to succeed.

It was an ambush situation (since they all failed their spot and listen) and you allowed the manticore a single standard action (perfectly acceptable in the surprise round). The manticore happens to have a special ability that allows it to launch six spines as a standard action. As long as you rolled seperately for each and allowed the rogue his/her uncanny dodge (I'm assuming they are only the rogue class, otherwise they may not even have this) then there was nothing done incorrectly. That wasn't death in one hit, it was death in six. The manticore has an Int of 7 so while it may not be able to see who is the most dangerous amongst the party it can certainly know that concentrating its attacks are better than spreading them out.

Unfortunately for the rogue, his/her luck just ran out this time, I see nothing wrong here.

(Also, your players are a bit foolish for having no ranged weapons. Everyone at 5th level should be able to afford a bow or crossbow. Heck, even a sling!)
temparus2000
05-06-07, 10:28 PM I understand the rules on CR, a cr 5 monster is an average encounter for a party of 4, 5th level chars. But, is any CR5 encounter ok for any average 5th level group of players?

Let me give an example:
Party members of a Human Crusader, Human rogue/sword sage, dragon shaman (unknown race... dont ask...) and a human cleric of Pelor. Most players actually have above average stats and life (they can roll good sometimes). they enter a large room with a high ceiling (its an extreamly dark underground dungeon) and they fail their spot and listen to notice the manticore perched up on a ledge (once again its high up and very dark). The rogue begins searching a dead body on the ground to see what it has in its pockets and the rest of the players dont want to set off any traps so they keep watch and stay behind the rogue. At this point the manticore gets hungry and is itching for a fight so it unleased a volley of spikes at the closest person (rogue) as it flies down. The 6 spikes (taking a standard action to launch) end up killing the rogue outright! (beyond -10) I, not wanting to kill 2 members in a fight decide that the manticore should fly down and get into hand to hand instead of loosing another volley of spikes (the party lacks ranged attacks). One round it dies. Didnt get more than a single bite attack. After the combat the party whines like little girls that "You should not be throwing monsters at us that could kill us in one hit!" i say its CR5 encounter no matter the damage it can deal in a standard action. So i had them continue with no further argument. Were they correct, or are they just angry that their best char died before Init. was even rolled? I will gladly compensate them if it turns out that I should be wrong. I have been DMing for about 4 years now (almost weekly) and havent really thought about this before.

Thanks

You didn't do anything wrong. The rouge died because he/she was unlucky enough to be hit with all 6 spikes. An average 5th level rouge with 12 con has 25 hp and 6 spikes on average will do 39 damage, so even a rouge with high con won't likely survive 5 or more manticore spikes. However, on a surprise round the manticore couldn't have moved AND done a spike volley (which is a standard action)so it had to be within 60 ft of the rouge while perched since it has darkvison of 60ft. If that is the case, then you did nothing technically wrong.
However, neither did the characters. They were unlucky in 3 ways. 1: they all failed to spot the manticore. 2: they all failed to hear it 3: all 6 spikes hit the rouge. Those are 3 pretty unlucky things which were beyond their control, so personally I would have fudged the rolls so that the rouge lived. But that's just a personal choice for me. But no, you didn't do anything wrong.
trapspringer
05-06-07, 10:32 PM ...standard action (make an attack roll for each spike). This attack has a range of 180 feet with no range increment.

It coulda' killed that dude from, like, Jupitor (if'n Jupitor where 180ft away) because the party must've had light sources or they'd be runnin' blind.
temparus2000
05-06-07, 10:42 PM It coulda' killed that dude from, like, Jupitor (if'n Jupitor where 180ft away) because the party must've had light sources or they'd be runnin' blind.

yeah, that's true. I have trouble imagining the situation when I'm not actually playing.
trapspringer
05-06-07, 10:44 PM yeah, that's true. I have trouble imagining the situation when I'm not actually playing.

I only figure it out because I started typing thinking you were talking about the attack's range and then had to edit the post to justify my stance of "Nuh-uh!"

So yea, I guess I have something kinda' like that, but for me it's "being a Johnson" instead of "playing."
temparus2000
05-06-07, 10:48 PM Most DM's would agree that this was a situation where you should have fudged numbers since the players didn't do anything to warrant the result of a dead character. But there is absolutley no reason why they should be mad at you. They were unlucky. Plain and simple. It happens.
So to answer the question of whether you should retract the incident.....depends. Not doing so will cause them to be more careful and possibly make the game move slower, but on the other hand you might like them to feel that they might die at any time. Depends on what kind of gaming environment you want. But don't change your mind just because they whined. That would be a mistake.
superjesusfromthefuture
05-06-07, 10:51 PM Couple of things...

Yes i did remember to roll individually for each spike, 4 hit.

I would agree that the manticore had the advantage of suprise under normal circumstances. I wanted to keep it short so i left out some details above. The body that he was searching was of a dead fifth level fighter (lots of good equipment, party could have realized that it wasnt a kobold that killed it) also, before the rogue even went over i described "three large spikes, that appear to be made of bone, protrude from the corpses mangled face. A large portion of its torso seems to have been bitten off" the party definately could have figured out something was up here and could have done something about it.

Yes, my rolling was above average at the time, but the player was complaining that "6 shots, each deal 1d8+2 +8 attack b is to much for the party to handle" he was saying the monste was unfair.

The funny thing was the dragon shaman had a much better spot than the rogue!:D

The party did have ranged weapons, it just wasnt enough to compete with the manticores spines so i gave em a break.

Foolish? yes. But if you had seen some of the wicked traps i had set up in the temple (the kobold temple that is devoted to Kurtulmak;) ) then you wouldnt walk ahead of the rogue either HAHAHA!!!

thanks guys
temparus2000
05-06-07, 10:56 PM Foolish? yes. But if you had seen some of the wicked traps i had set up in the temple (the kobold temple that is devoted to Kurtulmak;) ) then you wouldnt walk ahead of the rogue either HAHAHA!!!

thanks guys

then I DEFINATELY feel you should have fudged the rolls. You admit to creating a game environment that puts the rouge up-front and then he dies because of it.
trapspringer
05-06-07, 11:03 PM Disagree. I mean, kinda.

What happened was unlikely, but it was a CR-appropriate challenge with ample foreshadowing. The DM did his job. Adventuring is dangerous.

It's regrettable that we as DMs don't actually have total control over everything, but **** happens.
superjesusfromthefuture
05-06-07, 11:23 PM a rogue is there to detect traps, whether they are set buy insane kobolds or manticores. I feel, and so do all my players that a rogue should be upfront even if they are in open plains, it is a scouting class.

Also you were saying earlier about fudging rolls, i wouild like to comment on that. My PCs are min maxed, munchkinized, cheezed out dealers of infinite death... AT LVL 5! If this thing that happened by chance didnt kill them (like if i did fudge the rolls) then nothing ever would unless its so unbalanced that they have no option but to die. The only reason why i put up with the cheeze is becasue i am amazed and extreamly gracious for the way that they role play. They have created in deapth char. backgrounds, they have well developed characters and a personality that i have never seen another group of players create. They will even make sacrifices to RP their char. The cleric is Grendle the Lazy, and he usually delays actions to last, only for the fact that hes lazy.

The manticore didnt make a move action and an attack, only attack. It then won init.

"It's regrettable that we as DMs don't actually have total control over everything, but **** happens"

-very true trap springer

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
superjesusfromthefuture 05-06-07, 09:50 PM	I understand the rules on CR, a cr 5 monster is an average encounter for a party of 4, 5th level chars. But, is any CR5 encounter ok for any average 5th level group of players? Let me give an example: Party members of a Human Crusader, Human rogue/sword sage, dragon shaman (unknown race... dont ask...) and a human cleric of Pelor. Most players actually have above average stats and life (they can roll good sometimes). they enter a large room with a high ceiling (its an extreamly dark underground dungeon) and they fail their spot and listen to notice the manticore perched up on a ledge (once again its high up and very dark). The rogue begins searching a dead body on the ground to see what it has in its pockets and the rest of the players dont want to set off any traps so they keep watch and stay behind the rogue. At this point the manticore gets hungry and is itching for a fight so it unleased a volley of spikes at the closest person (rogue) as it flies down. The 6 spikes (taking a standard action to launch) end up killing the rogue outright! (beyond -10) I, not wanting to kill 2 members in a fight decide that the manticore should fly down and get into hand to hand instead of loosing another volley of spikes (the party lacks ranged attacks). One round it dies. Didnt get more than a single bite attack. After the combat the party says that "You should not be throwing monsters at us that could kill us in one hit!" i say its CR5 encounter no matter the damage it can deal in a standard action. So i had them continue with no further argument. Were they correct, or are they just angry that their best char died before Init. was even rolled? I will gladly compensate them if it turns out that I should be wrong. I have been DMing for about 4 years now (almost weekly) and havent really thought about this before. Thanks
Toloran 05-06-07, 10:16 PM	Quick Point: Did you remember to roll for each spike? On CR: An equal CR encounter vs an average party should consume about 1/4 of their resources. On Encounter Level: A single CR 5 monster and nothing else is generally a EL 5 encounter. However, in the situation you described, that wasn't the case because the Manticore had two advantages: 1) Suprise because it was hidden in a dark cavern and 2) It was a flying enemy in a large room where it could use its ranged abilities to its fullest. What happened in your adventure was a fluke and these things happen some times. An enemy, just like a player, can randomly get a lucky crit and roll max damage and kill their opponent. In this case, the manticore happened to attack the squishiest member of your party (Lowest FF AC, Lowest HD, etc). Also, your party was a bit foolish for standing back from the rogue like that (which, in some situations, is a good idea but in this case it was the wrong call).
trapspringer 05-06-07, 10:19 PM	A manticore is pretty hoss for a CR5. 6d8+12, huh? That's definantly a potential dead-guy scenario, right? Lesse'. So they gotta hit, but they have a +8 to each attack. So let's say the party is moderately well equipped, and the first target is a rogue with an AC of 19. that's about a 50/50 to-hit. So 3d8+6 damage initially. That averages out to 21.95 damage (with criticals) and caps out at thirty damage (without criticals). He could do this four times, but based on the guidlines presented in the DMG, creatures don't usually consume more than something like... I dunno', half their resources on a party ('cuz the might need it later / have already used it). Further, the MM specifically states it is only likely to make use of this (admittedly extremely effective) tactic at the start of the fight, then proceed to charge. The average level five rogue-dude with a con of 14 would be battin' about 30 hp, or 39 damage prior to death. It's statistically improbable for what happened to happen, but the numbers say it isn't unreasonable to see something like that once every five or six maticore fights given an appropriately weak rogue. What essentially happened was a rogue-fight (which is a lot like a spot-check competition, but with lots of pointy things). The other part of that "Appropriate challenge for a party of four" thing is "a 50/50 encounter for a single character of that level." The rogue lost his 50/50 competition when he failed that spot check. Had the positions been reversed and the rogue well built, an equal and opposite scenario would probably unfold (rapidshot, sneak attack = +9 to-hit, or 70%, 6d6 sneak attack +2d8 longbow +5 miscellaneous = 35 damage). Were the rogue to win initiative, that's a match.
Tiarn 05-06-07, 10:27 PM	Not that I advocated player death, but I didn't see anything that you did wrong. True, CR does increase a bit if the situation is advantageous to the monster, (such as high ground, ambush, etc) but even then they should still be able to succeed. It was an ambush situation (since they all failed their spot and listen) and you allowed the manticore a single standard action (perfectly acceptable in the surprise round). The manticore happens to have a special ability that allows it to launch six spines as a standard action. As long as you rolled seperately for each and allowed the rogue his/her uncanny dodge (I'm assuming they are only the rogue class, otherwise they may not even have this) then there was nothing done incorrectly. That wasn't death in one hit, it was death in six. The manticore has an Int of 7 so while it may not be able to see who is the most dangerous amongst the party it can certainly know that concentrating its attacks are better than spreading them out. Unfortunately for the rogue, his/her luck just ran out this time, I see nothing wrong here. (Also, your players are a bit foolish for having no ranged weapons. Everyone at 5th level should be able to afford a bow or crossbow. Heck, even a sling!)
temparus2000 05-06-07, 10:28 PM	I understand the rules on CR, a cr 5 monster is an average encounter for a party of 4, 5th level chars. But, is any CR5 encounter ok for any average 5th level group of players? Let me give an example: Party members of a Human Crusader, Human rogue/sword sage, dragon shaman (unknown race... dont ask...) and a human cleric of Pelor. Most players actually have above average stats and life (they can roll good sometimes). they enter a large room with a high ceiling (its an extreamly dark underground dungeon) and they fail their spot and listen to notice the manticore perched up on a ledge (once again its high up and very dark). The rogue begins searching a dead body on the ground to see what it has in its pockets and the rest of the players dont want to set off any traps so they keep watch and stay behind the rogue. At this point the manticore gets hungry and is itching for a fight so it unleased a volley of spikes at the closest person (rogue) as it flies down. The 6 spikes (taking a standard action to launch) end up killing the rogue outright! (beyond -10) I, not wanting to kill 2 members in a fight decide that the manticore should fly down and get into hand to hand instead of loosing another volley of spikes (the party lacks ranged attacks). One round it dies. Didnt get more than a single bite attack. After the combat the party whines like little girls that "You should not be throwing monsters at us that could kill us in one hit!" i say its CR5 encounter no matter the damage it can deal in a standard action. So i had them continue with no further argument. Were they correct, or are they just angry that their best char died before Init. was even rolled? I will gladly compensate them if it turns out that I should be wrong. I have been DMing for about 4 years now (almost weekly) and havent really thought about this before. Thanks You didn't do anything wrong. The rouge died because he/she was unlucky enough to be hit with all 6 spikes. An average 5th level rouge with 12 con has 25 hp and 6 spikes on average will do 39 damage, so even a rouge with high con won't likely survive 5 or more manticore spikes. However, on a surprise round the manticore couldn't have moved AND done a spike volley (which is a standard action)so it had to be within 60 ft of the rouge while perched since it has darkvison of 60ft. If that is the case, then you did nothing technically wrong. However, neither did the characters. They were unlucky in 3 ways. 1: they all failed to spot the manticore. 2: they all failed to hear it 3: all 6 spikes hit the rouge. Those are 3 pretty unlucky things which were beyond their control, so personally I would have fudged the rolls so that the rouge lived. But that's just a personal choice for me. But no, you didn't do anything wrong.
trapspringer 05-06-07, 10:32 PM	...standard action (make an attack roll for each spike). This attack has a range of 180 feet with no range increment. It coulda' killed that dude from, like, Jupitor (if'n Jupitor where 180ft away) because the party must've had light sources or they'd be runnin' blind.
temparus2000 05-06-07, 10:42 PM	It coulda' killed that dude from, like, Jupitor (if'n Jupitor where 180ft away) because the party must've had light sources or they'd be runnin' blind. yeah, that's true. I have trouble imagining the situation when I'm not actually playing.
trapspringer 05-06-07, 10:44 PM	yeah, that's true. I have trouble imagining the situation when I'm not actually playing. I only figure it out because I started typing thinking you were talking about the attack's range and then had to edit the post to justify my stance of "Nuh-uh!" So yea, I guess I have something kinda' like that, but for me it's "being a Johnson" instead of "playing."
temparus2000 05-06-07, 10:48 PM	Most DM's would agree that this was a situation where you should have fudged numbers since the players didn't do anything to warrant the result of a dead character. But there is absolutley no reason why they should be mad at you. They were unlucky. Plain and simple. It happens. So to answer the question of whether you should retract the incident.....depends. Not doing so will cause them to be more careful and possibly make the game move slower, but on the other hand you might like them to feel that they might die at any time. Depends on what kind of gaming environment you want. But don't change your mind just because they whined. That would be a mistake.
superjesusfromthefuture 05-06-07, 10:51 PM	Couple of things... Yes i did remember to roll individually for each spike, 4 hit. I would agree that the manticore had the advantage of suprise under normal circumstances. I wanted to keep it short so i left out some details above. The body that he was searching was of a dead fifth level fighter (lots of good equipment, party could have realized that it wasnt a kobold that killed it) also, before the rogue even went over i described "three large spikes, that appear to be made of bone, protrude from the corpses mangled face. A large portion of its torso seems to have been bitten off" the party definately could have figured out something was up here and could have done something about it. Yes, my rolling was above average at the time, but the player was complaining that "6 shots, each deal 1d8+2 +8 attack b is to much for the party to handle" he was saying the monste was unfair. The funny thing was the dragon shaman had a much better spot than the rogue!:D The party did have ranged weapons, it just wasnt enough to compete with the manticores spines so i gave em a break. Foolish? yes. But if you had seen some of the wicked traps i had set up in the temple (the kobold temple that is devoted to Kurtulmak;) ) then you wouldnt walk ahead of the rogue either HAHAHA!!! thanks guys
temparus2000 05-06-07, 10:56 PM	Foolish? yes. But if you had seen some of the wicked traps i had set up in the temple (the kobold temple that is devoted to Kurtulmak;) ) then you wouldnt walk ahead of the rogue either HAHAHA!!! thanks guys then I DEFINATELY feel you should have fudged the rolls. You admit to creating a game environment that puts the rouge up-front and then he dies because of it.
trapspringer 05-06-07, 11:03 PM	Disagree. I mean, kinda. What happened was unlikely, but it was a CR-appropriate challenge with ample foreshadowing. The DM did his job. Adventuring is dangerous. It's regrettable that we as DMs don't actually have total control over everything, but **** happens.
superjesusfromthefuture 05-06-07, 11:23 PM	a rogue is there to detect traps, whether they are set buy insane kobolds or manticores. I feel, and so do all my players that a rogue should be upfront even if they are in open plains, it is a scouting class. Also you were saying earlier about fudging rolls, i wouild like to comment on that. My PCs are min maxed, munchkinized, cheezed out dealers of infinite death... AT LVL 5! If this thing that happened by chance didnt kill them (like if i did fudge the rolls) then nothing ever would unless its so unbalanced that they have no option but to die. The only reason why i put up with the cheeze is becasue i am amazed and extreamly gracious for the way that they role play. They have created in deapth char. backgrounds, they have well developed characters and a personality that i have never seen another group of players create. They will even make sacrifices to RP their char. The cleric is Grendle the Lazy, and he usually delays actions to last, only for the fact that hes lazy. The manticore didnt make a move action and an attack, only attack. It then won init. "It's regrettable that we as DMs don't actually have total control over everything, but **** happens" -very true trap springer