Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RurouniKakita 03-10-08, 04:29 PM	Forgive me if this has been asked before, if it has then I have failed many search checks for it and would appreciate a link to the answer if available. The question I have is simple. Other than give my attacking NPCs many items or enhancements to up their touch ACs is there any way to have resistance against a Warlock's Eldrich attacks without saying that it just doesn't work? Also I know a touch attack bypasses armor and natural armor but what about Mage armor and it's Psionic equivalent? Personally in my campaign those won't be bypassed by a touch attack but those are my own rulings and I'm not entirely sure they are consistent with the rules. Any idea or thoughts on the matter?
TwiddleStootch 03-10-08, 04:34 PM	The question I have is simple. Other than give my attacking NPCs many items or enhancements to up their touch ACs is there any way to have resistance against a Warlock's Eldrich attacks without saying that it just doesn't work? Why are you so set on stopping the Warlock? I can only assume you feel they are over-powered, having at-will attacks and so forth. I have never used Warlock personally, but there are lots of discussions on these boards about the balance of the warlock class. However, if the damage is un-typed then the only way to slow it down is : 1) Up touch AC 2) Give the enemies Concealment for miss chances (displacement is good). Also I know a touch attack bypasses armor and natural armor but what about Mage armor and it's Psionic equivalent? Personally in my campaign those won't be bypassed by a touch attack but those are my own rulings and I'm not entirely sure they are consistent with the rules. Any idea or thoughts on the matter? Force armors (like mage armor) do function against touch attacks, as does Deflection bonuses to AC (shield of faith, rings of protection etc.).
LSMFT 03-10-08, 04:43 PM	Being harder to hit is one of the easiest ways to go about this. But: Force armors (like mage armor) do function against touch attacks, as does Deflection bonuses to AC (shield of faith, rings of protection etc.).That is not true. Force works against incorporeal touch attacks. But not against any other type. Dexterity and deflection are your best bets AC-wise. Ninjas and monks with the Wis to AC can have very high touch ACs. You can also use things like a Globe of Invulnerability to block some blasts. There is errata to the effect that EB is a first-level spell effect. (So ignore the rule in the book.) Warlocks can increase the effective spell level with Shape and Essence invocations, so you'll have to see what the character is using. Spell Immunity should probably work as well. Your next best bet is to have a really high SR.
wonlee76 03-10-08, 04:56 PM	You can always take advantage of cover bonuses to AC. It could be soft cover (using the Warlock's allies as cover) or otherwise (trees, walls, pillars, etc.). Shooting into melee would impose a penalty to hit for the warlock unless he has the Precise Shot feat. I believe the Ray of Deflection spell (SC) would make an NPC bad guy spellcaster immune to all range touch attacks for a short while. Its been a while since I looked at that spell so I'm not 100% certain if it works against a warlock's EB.
Merestil Haye 03-10-08, 05:26 PM	1. Touch armour class. All bonuses to AC improve touch AC except Armour, Shield and Natural Armour bonuses; so cover, increasing Dex, Deflection (from a Shield of Faith spell, for example) and so on. As discussed, touch attacks ignore all armour and shield bonuses, including bonuses from force effects. Incorporeal touch attacks are not touch attacks - they are given different names specifically to differentiate them. 2. Concealment. Anything that provides a miss chance affects Eldritch Blast. So does incorporeality - the effect is magical so it has a 50% chance of working against the target incorporeal creature (rather than none at all). 3. Antimagic. An atnimagic field blocks most spell-like and supernatural abilities from affecting those inside (although they will be able to work beyond the field, according to the Rules Compendium). 4. Globe of Invulnerability. As mentioned, EB is a 1st level spell equivalent. The raw EB is blocked by Globe of Invulnerability and its Lesser cousin. 5. Ray Deflection. See the Spell Compendium for details. Ultimately though, what defeats a Warlock is their lack of flexibility. They are pretty much a one-trick pony.
iserith 03-10-08, 10:44 PM	Grapple him in the face. That will cure your warlock woes. Eldritch blast is a spell-like ability. He'll need to make Concentration checks to get it off plus penalties in the grapple, etc. The warlock in my campaign is barbarian 1/warlock 5 - he uses a guisarme for tripping and channels his blast through the weapon. Combined with rage and Power Attack, it does sick damage. Luckily, that's a standard action and once he gets above a +5 BAB it won't be as good. Spell resistance has worked in a couple of an encounters to challenge him. So watch out for this as well if he tries to counter your new tactics.
Cifer 03-11-08, 12:08 AM	Warlocks don't need to be challenged too hard - as soon as your game gets a little higher in level, chances are you'll have one or two enemies with spell resistance, meaning your warlock now has two rolls to make for every attack.
RurouniKakita 03-11-08, 12:11 AM	Thank you all for your answers I had forgotten that the Edrich stuff was a spell like ability and there for subject to resistance and such. I shall remember it from now on.
AntiDjinn 03-11-08, 12:46 AM	If a warlock is shooting at you, your best defense is simply to run over and hack him to bits. Once he is dead he can't blast you anymore. The warlock is the master of sustained mediocrity; he does only middling damage, but never runs out. At higher levels this can be an issue: The 17th level warlock, for example, can do 8d6 with a blast. He generally hits, but not always since he only has the medium BAB progression so even against touch AC he still misses sometimes. He can, as mentioned, do this all day. The 17th level wizard he is shooting at can respond with Power Word Kill, Wail of the Banshee, Time Stop, or any number of effects that basically say "your day is done." Even if the wizard responds with simple damage, he dishes 10 to 15d6 or more to the warlock's 8. The wizard will eventually run out, but probably not before the warlock runs out of hit points. The suggestions given above for boosting your touch AC are good, but seriously, if someone is planning to nickel and dime you to death over several rounds your best bet is to settle his accounts in one.
the_rooster 03-11-08, 01:05 AM	I love all the comments about justkilling a warlock quickly. I would guess most of the people who say this have never fought a clever warlock. I run a 9th level lock and my DM is consistently frustrated to the point that he now makes all casters flying and they come with auto- see invisible usually pre-cast. I've taken a few feats to give me the ability to use dimension door and summon monster 5, and I'm a terror at just plain screwing NPCs over, (one shot kill? good luck while you're grappled by my stony fists and probably blind, and I have 4 large fire elementals attacking you). Mind you I'm not invincible or broken, but the idea of one-shot killing me is laughable, especially with DR: 4 (yay feats) and 40+ HP. My blast ALWAYS hits, because I wa samrt and put stats into Dex (+9 to hit touch AC, so typically anything over a 5 hits...and blinds). However...we once fought a pair of hags and I was worthless the entire battle. SR wrcks casters, and locks are basically casters. So does being grappled, but much moreso SR. Trolls suck, too, because they regen my 4d6 every round (I have a level in mindbender). So SR, regeneration, concealment/invisibilty. All good lock challenges.
Merestil Haye 03-11-08, 08:04 AM	Grapple him in the face. That will cure your warlock woes. Eldritch blast is a spell-like ability. He'll need to make Concentration checks to get it off plus penalties in the grapple, etc.Grappling kills warlocks as well because most invocations have somatic components; thus they're not usable grapple check or no. A mid-level warlock probably has Flee the Scene though; that works like Dimension Door, which can be used in a grapple. If not, the warlock is likely flying or invisible and thus difficult to grapple for other reasons. Don't count on SR either. At 11th level he'll take Vitriolic Blast, which ignores SR.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-11-08, 09:18 AM	I run a 9th level lock and my DM is consistently frustrated to the point that he now makes all casters flying and they come with auto- see invisible usually pre-cast. Wait, there's such thing as spellcasters that can't fly and don't prepare for the PC's casting a 2nd level spell? That's odd to me. Every spellcaster in my game has fly and some form of dealing with invisibility (Glitterdust, Faerie fire, see invisibility, invisibility purge, etc.) I mean, people start running around invisible starting at level 3, a wise NPC caster will prepare for that.
TwiddleStootch 03-11-08, 12:20 PM	Ahh, my bad about the force armor. I didn't check the books :D Sorry
LSMFT 03-11-08, 12:29 PM	I love all the comments about justkilling a warlock quickly. I would guess most of the people who say this have never fought a clever warlock.Hmm. Well, even at their most clever, they just aren't that hard to deal with. I run a 9th level lock and my DM is consistently frustrated to the point that he now makes all casters flying and they come with auto- see invisible usually pre-cast.Well, generally, casters don't have those precast, but, almost all of them have a way to deal. And once they know you're invisible, they use it. You might gain a one-round advantage. After that… And really, I don't have to know exactly where you are to hit you with a fireball. Or an area Dispel. (Remember how the Fly spell lets you float to the ground when it is dispelled? Uh oh! Not so with Fell Flight.) I've taken a few feats to give me the ability to use dimension door and summon monster 5, and I'm a terror at just plain screwing NPCs over, (one shot kill? good luck while you're grappled by my stony fists and probably blind, and I have 4 large fire elementals attacking you). Ah, Fey Legacy, right? But, isn't that just once per day? Mind you I'm not invincible or broken, but the idea of one-shot killing me is laughable, especially with DR: 4 (yay feats) and 40+ HP. My blast ALWAYS hits, because I wa samrt and put stats into Dex (+9 to hit touch AC, so typically anything over a 5 hits...and blinds).40 hp? Maybe not one round, with a typical, not all twinked out, caster. But 2? Yeah. 2. And honestly, you aren't going to hit every round if I'm playing smart. No matter how good your Dex, cover, concealment, still cut your effectiveness in half. I'm sure you've been very, very effective for a long time, but, honestly, by right about now, level 9, warlocks start to go into a deep decline relative to regular casters, power-wise. However...we once fought a pair of hags and I was worthless the entire battle. SR wrcks casters, and locks are basically casters. So does being grappled, but much moreso SR. Trolls suck, too, because they regen my 4d6 every round (I have a level in mindbender).Vitriolic Blast will solve both those problems. Hags have SR that is a bit better than average, but, for most creatures, you can take Arcane Mastery, and take 10 on those checks. 10+your caster-level, with a couple boosts from feats or items, and 90% of those issues are pretty well taken care of.
the_rooster 03-11-08, 03:54 PM	Wait, there's such thing as spellcasters that can't fly and don't prepare for the PC's casting a 2nd level spell? That's odd to me. Every spellcaster in my game has fly and some form of dealing with invisibility (Glitterdust, Faerie fire, see invisibility, invisibility purge, etc.) I mean, people start running around invisible starting at level 3, a wise NPC caster will prepare for that. Most of those require you knowing the general area I'm in, and flight makes that very tricky. And really, unless you have 4+ 3rd level spells, wasting one on Fly just makes a caster much less of a threat. Well, generally, casters don't have those precast, but, almost all of them have a way to deal. And once they know you're invisible, they use it. You might gain a one-round advantage. After that… Right...because I'm the only threat in my party...and I only attack once then I ignore them. Why does he get extra rounds but not me? DC 20 fort saves to avoid blindness are not a wizard's forte, to put it mildly. And really, I don't have to know exactly where you are to hit you with a fireball. Or an area Dispel. (Remember how the Fly spell lets you float to the ground when it is dispelled? Uh oh! Not so with Fell Flight.) First you need to be able to cast it, and see the general area I'm in at least. 40 hp? Maybe not one round, with a typical, not all twinked out, caster. But 2? Yeah. 2. And honestly, you aren't going to hit every round if I'm playing smart. No matter how good your Dex, cover, concealment, still cut your effectiveness in half. Fair enough, but if he wants to throw fireballs at JUST me, I'm sort of doing my job of making the wizard les sof a threat aren't I? Vitriolic Blast will solve both those problems. I'm not there, yet. And from what I gathered, neither is the guy in his campaign.
Escef 03-11-08, 05:00 PM	My blast ALWAYS hits, because I wa samrt and put stats into Dex (+9 to hit touch AC, so typically anything over a 5 hits...and blinds). Irony, anyone? :D
LSMFT 03-11-08, 05:20 PM	Right...because I'm the only threat in my party...and I only attack once then I ignore them. Why does he get extra rounds but not me? DC 20 fort saves to avoid blindness are not a wizard's forte, to put it mildly.Either you’re a serious threat, and worth devoting a little attention to so as to take you out quick, or you’re not a threat, and I can sit back and deal with the others. Right? Look, Dude, you came out with some nonsense about anyone thinking you can kill a warlock quickly has never faced a clever one. I’m sure you’re very clever. But, if a mage devotes his full attention to you, you’re toast in a couple rounds. In a level or 2, even sooner. I’ve played plenty of warlock characters, and lots of real casters. Both are good fun, but you've hit probably hit your peak.
Muddman72 03-11-08, 09:39 PM	Ok, so what do you do to a warlock with vitriolic blast and flee the scene? I mean they can blast through pretty much anything, you can't grapple them and their acid does continuous damage. And they can fly, so its not like the fighter can walk up and slam them exactly. Not everyone is going to have ray deflection or acid resistence, so whats an NPC who is not all knowing or wizardly to do?
iserith 03-11-08, 09:49 PM	Well, I think we can all agree on one thing: You can figure out as many ways to beat a midlevel warlock as you can figure out how many ways the warlock can avoid being beaten. Welcome to game balance. (At this level.)
Count Arioch the 28th 03-11-08, 11:40 PM	Most of those require you knowing the general area I'm in, and flight makes that very tricky. And really, unless you have 4+ 3rd level spells, wasting one on Fly just makes a caster much less of a threat. Actually, using a spell slot on flay makes them more of a threat, because that makes them harder to reach. Also, it's a straight spot check to see where you are when you shoot at someone invisible. You see, someone can see you by beating your hide check +20 when you are invisible. So, someone can attempt a spot check to pinpoint your location while invisible, you make a hide check +20 to foil that. (Reference: Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) ) Sounds great, right? Here's the kicker. When you shoot at someone, your next hide check gets a -20 penalty. Therefore, you can be pinpointed with a single spot check that beats your hide check, and they know your exact location. (reference: Hide Skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) ) Sure, you still retain total concealment, and all attacks suffer a 50% miss change. However, if someone drops a faerie fire or glitterdust right on the square you are floating on, then you're pooched. Somehow though, I don't think your DM knows about that, or else he wouldn't be as worried about you flying around invisible at level 9, a full 5 levels after a wizard could do the same. Granted, not all things can deal with invisibility, but most things have, or could possibly have ranks in spot, and as we determined, every round you shoot you're able to be located.
the_rooster 03-12-08, 12:03 AM	Actually, using a spell slot on flay makes them more of a threat, because that makes them harder to reach. Also, it's a straight spot check to see where you are when you shoot at someone invisible. You see, someone can see you by beating your hide check +20 when you are invisible. So, someone can attempt a spot check to pinpoint your location while invisible, you make a hide check +20 to foil that. (Reference: Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) ) Sounds great, right? Here's the kicker. When you shoot at someone, your next hide check gets a -20 penalty. Therefore, you can be pinpointed with a single spot check that beats your hide check, and they know your exact location. (reference: Hide Skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) ) Sure, you still retain total concealment, and all attacks suffer a 50% miss change. However, if someone drops a faerie fire or glitterdust right on the square you are floating on, then you're pooched. Somehow though, I don't think your DM knows about that, or else he wouldn't be as worried about you flying around invisible at level 9, a full 5 levels after a wizard could do the same. Granted, not all things can deal with invisibility, but most things have, or could possibly have ranks in spot, and as we determined, every round you shoot you're able to be located. Or I'm smart enough to shoot THEN move. Besides, the invisibility isn't what hurts, it the fact that they're blind. Look, Dude, you came out with some nonsense about anyone thinking you can kill a warlock quickly has never faced a clever one. I’m sure you’re very clever. But, if a mage devotes his full attention to you, you’re toast in a couple rounds. In a level or 2, even sooner. Problem is, it's not nonsense. My DM has been trying to get me for weeks, because I muck up his plans so much. He's not being unfair, and there have been some challenges, but I've never once been near death after 1 or 2 rounds. Could he go ridiculously metagamed and try to make guys JUST to kill me, using all the perfect counters to my abilities? Sure. But we play for fun, not so the DM can say "ha! I beat you." If mages are so awesome at killing thigns in a rond or 2, why bother playing anything else past level 7? Iserith had it spot on. Game balance. I have ways to frustrate and screw a wizard, and certain spells and other things (like the hags) can ruin my lock. But the idea that "oh, any wizard worth his salt has already prepared the perfect counter to any scenario you can think of" is just silly. That was my only point.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-12-08, 07:20 AM	Or I'm smart enough to shoot THEN move. Besides, the invisibility isn't what hurts, it the fact that they're blind. And like I said, if you shoot then move, you get a net bonus of +0 to avoid being located. It's right there in the skill descriptions. Seriously, read the links I sent you.
LSMFT 03-12-08, 11:54 AM	Or I'm smart enough to shoot THEN move. Besides, the invisibility isn't what hurts, it the fact that they're blind.So, basically, Beshadowed Blast is like the uber essence? It equals win? Aren’t wizards throwing out Blindness spells at like level 3? Problem is, it's not nonsense. My DM has been trying to get me for weeks, because I muck up his plans so much. Well, maybe he's not trying that hard? The fact that you haven't been wasted doesn't mean that you couldn't be. I think it is far more likely that you aren’t dead because he doesn’t want you dead. Or, well, I don't know your DM, but, realistically, I also have to consider the possibility that he is trying his hardest, and just, well, sucks. I mean how hard is it, really, to make flight ineffective? A room with a 10’ ceiling would do it. If he wanted you dead, and was as clever as you, you'd be dead, wouldn't you? If mages are so awesome at killing thigns in a rond or 2, why bother playing anything else past level 7?That's pretty much how it works I think. :) Seriously, you play for fun, and I've always said that warlocks are one of the most fun classes to play. I just don't think that comes from them being unstoppable. Iserith had it spot on. Game balance.Iserith really underestimates the power of full casters. I think warlocks are one of the most balanced classes, but that doesn’t mean they are balanced with those that are on the high end of the spectrum. Think about it: a sorcerer of your same level can cast Greater Invisibility and Fly every encounter easily. Then sit back and blast away with something like Scorching Ray. (8d6 at level 9 for the two rays.) You have him beat on sustainability. No doubt. But that's looking at only 3 of his 14 spells known, not even bothering to count cantrips. But the idea that "oh, any wizard worth his salt has already prepared the perfect counter to any scenario you can think of" is just silly. That was my only point.That's how wizards think? All prep casters think that way? Don't they? I mean, those that live. They are adventurers/evil overlords in a dangerous, magic and monster filled world. Things like flight and invisibility are not amazing, unheard of, and therefore challenging, obstacles. Ok, so what do you do to a warlock with vitriolic blast and flee the scene? I mean they can blast through pretty much anything, you can't grapple them and their acid does continuous damage.Why, exactly can they not be grappled? And they can fly, so its not like the fighter can walk up and slam them exactly. Fly is not a spell with a range of "Personal." It's Touch. Not everyone is going to have ray deflection or acid resistence, so whats an NPC who is not all knowing or wizardly to do?1) Unless you are in an arena or something, cover is often easy enough to come by. A bag of flour can ruin your ability to hide. 2) An inability to cast magic spells is not an inability to use magic. NPCs of your CR or close should have access to plenty of magical options, even if they are noncasters. Last warlock I saw screwed was not killed, but rendered unconscious, by a monk with a potion of Fly. Great Spot check, fast, high touch AC, once he had the grapple, it was all over.
iserith 03-12-08, 03:14 PM	Iserith really underestimates the power of full casters. I don't underestimate them at all... in fact, I said in my post twice that I was referring to warlocks vs. casters at midlevels. You will never hear Iserith saying anything emphatically, universally, or without context. That's just how he rolls - wishy washy, but creative (and fiendishly handsome). ;) In any case, the most valid point to be made here is that a clever DM can handle any amount of brokeness by a player. Probably the best suggestion to counter flying is that 10' high ceiling. The best solutions are usually the most obvious and simple ones. Of course, the last warlock I had in one of my campaigns was an annoying flying blaster. Unfortunately, the campaign was deep in the wilderness so he was really shining being unconfined for the most part. At around level 12, the party encountered a large group of warforged including a warforged scout artificer named Slinger (a wand specialist). In my notes for the encounter, I wrote "Slinger targets his alpha strike on the first person to attack him." The warlock won initiative and blasted the warforged. The warforged then fired his wands of acid orb. No more warlock. Who's broken now?!