Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xill-Lord Psionic Might 06-14-05, 05:58 PM	Okay here it goes.... So i just started running a game that is a blend of medival eastern european culture and mythology particulary of Hungary and the legends of King Aurthur be hence I have a problem, who do i diviorce the legends of Aurthur from thier historical and strong religious context but still keep the flavor and archytypes of the genre intact. Has ayone ever ran or played in a Authurian flavored (well i guess most campaigns have alteast some flvor being the staple that authur is to fantasy but i mean strongly based on the legends of the kingths of the round table) if so how was it and how did it work out
prettyripples 06-14-05, 06:03 PM	The historical connections really aren't that strong. Arthur's parents more or less lost their kingdom to invaders. Arthur survived. He gets made king, and drives the invaders out again. As for the religion: you have the sword in the stone, Excalibur, and Arthur's devotion to God. Excalibur can be a family heirloom, which he's given on ascending the throne. The sword in the stone can be a cursed object, or simply a magic item (perhaps made by the great caster Merlin) that will only react to those of royal blood. And Arthur can be devoted to the land instead of God, in almost a Druid-like fashion (so make Merlin a druid as well). I'll admit I haven't tried to run an Arturian campaign. But really, he was simply an inspiring King, battling to save his country from invaders, and to do it with honour.
Xill-Lord Psionic Might 06-14-05, 06:22 PM	okay but what about arthurs and the knights quest to find the holy grail
prettyripples 06-14-05, 06:37 PM	okay but what about arthurs and the knights quest to find the holy grail Oops, forgot about that. I guess it is one of the major chapters in the saga... It's still workable. I'm guessing that you're planning to use Paladins for the knights, on the whole at least. Paladins don't actually need a deity, they just rely on divine power. So again, say that Arthur follows the call of the Land, which speaks to him in the form of the Lady of the Lake. The Land, sorely pressed after the invasion and devastated by war, tells sends Arthur a dream telling of a powerful magic item that can restore life to the land. It asks him to go quest for it. There you go - religion removed. I really do think that making Merlin a druid and Arthur, well, a tree-hugger, is the simplest way to go.
Vithar 06-14-05, 06:48 PM	Part of your problem might be which version of the Arthurian legend you are going after. If you read Le Morte Darthur by Sir Thomas Mallory I think you will see that a lot of the Arthurian Legend has nothing to do with religion at all. If I were running a campaign based on Arthurian Legend. I believe I would start with a quest for Merlin. From Merlin the party would learn of Excalibur sword of kings. After a great deal of trials and adventures the party finds and claims excalibur. Maybe one of the adventurers becomes king or maybe they return the sword to the rightful king so that he may claim his throne. Then perhaps the adventurers are made knights of the round table. First they must bring peace to the kingdom. Once that is accomplished they must quest to find a lost relic of ancient power that brings peace and plenty to the kingdom (Grail Quest). None of it needs religious context although a more druidic flavor might be fun as previously suggested.
Vithar 06-14-05, 06:50 PM	Another fun quest option would be to research a bit about each of the original knights of the round table and send your adventuring party in search of the lost knights.
Xill-Lord Psionic Might 06-14-05, 08:44 PM	thanx .i assume all the knights would be paladins...but what of lancealot he is never evil how ever he does fall from grace
Vithar 06-14-05, 08:56 PM	Actually I don't think of any of the knights being paladins except perhaps Lancelelot and Gawaine. Lancelot's fall is a great example of how even the purest knight can be tempted and fall from grace. In Lancelot's case he never really attones for this actions either and as a result he ends up with Gweneivere in exile. You don't hear much from Lancelot after that. Gawaine seems to step up and take the place of the pure paladin like knight.
20goingon1232 06-14-05, 09:11 PM	I would make most of the Knights high level Fighters with the appropriate alignment and feats (mostly EWP (BSword), PAttack, Cleave). Balin would have the TWF tree (and the stupid tree for killing his brother and dying in the attempt). Galahaut (Galahad), Parsifal (Percival) and maybe Gawain would be realy Paladins. This will get rid of alignment problems. Note that the Arthurian Legends is a VERY low-magic world. There is a module/setting out for it sometime in 1st Ed. It may pay to find that one and adapt it. If I remember correctly, Excalibur is just a Sword of Sharpness (equivalent of a sword with keen in 3.5, I believe). Excalibur wasn't the powerful item. It was Excal's SCABBARD that was the true artifact (no blood loss.... I mean, goodbye wounding and other Con drain effects, half damage from slashing/piercing, etc.). Also, Excal is NOT the sword in the stone. Arthur lost that one fighting Lancelot when they first met. Excal was given to him by the Lady of the Lake later. In Le Morte d'Arthur, the setting was during the time of the invasion of Christianity. Arthur chose monotheism over the polytheism of the old ways, but he was not a fanatic about it (remember that Merlin, his closest advisor, is a polytheist pagan). However, it was early days yet, so many of the peasants still clung to their old traditions. Your political and religious landscape would be the good side of early Christianity. The Knights doing good deeds in name of honour, king, country and religion. Peasants gradually turning towards monotheism because of those deeds. Things like that. The Grail Quest could be a focal point. You might even deviate from legend and throw in a bit of the da Vinci Code about the "real" Grail. The rescue of Guinevere is another possible main plot. In a more realistic setting, Arthur was most probably around during the time of the Roman pull out from Britain. Your main enemies would be the invading Saxons. Most people will be fighting with spears, and chainmail armour and a sword is a sign of a very high-ranking war chieftain. Religion is definitely polytheistic, and finding the ancient artifacts could be a main focal point of the game (there were about 12, I think, and one of them is the Cauldron of Dagna). It is said that those who find all 12 will have peace and prosperity. Another main focal point could be the battle at Mt Badon. Hope this helped.
Xill-Lord Psionic Might 06-14-05, 09:52 PM	how would you stat out merlin druid/wiz
20goingon1232 06-14-05, 09:58 PM	Druid/Sorceror. High Wis, high Cha, mod-high Int. Average everything else. Levels, probably in the region of Druid 10, Sorc 5. Concentrate on enchantments and transmutations. Drop evocations altogether. Merlin wasn't that powerful (compared to DnD style characters). It is the lack of magic in that setting that made him seem uber. He got held by an aspiring Sorceress, after all.
wordserpent 06-15-05, 05:07 AM	Chaosium has made a Camelot-based game called "King Arthur". You could use that very same setting along with the D&D rules and have a really nice Arthurian campaign. However it would not be very historical. If you want to read a somewhat historically correct (and I say somewhat only because the history of Arthur was sketchy and the sources varied) version of the King Arthur Saga then i might suggest you check out Bernard Cornwell's "The Winter King, "The Scourge of God" and "Excalibur". This trilogy is set in Post Roman Britain and uses period arms and armor and warfare tactics. The magic is Not anything like D&D magic but it is interesting to saythe least.
clarkvalentine 06-15-05, 07:53 AM	thanx .i assume all the knights would be paladins... Some might be, but others would be fighters, some would have ranger levels, many might have levels of aristocrat (or Noble if you use one of the many d20 supplements to provide a variation of the Noble base class), some might be clerics (especially with the War domain), some might even have rogue levels. Make sure your knights aren't all carbon copies of one another.
Xill-Lord Psionic Might 06-15-05, 09:19 AM	These are my npc's so far Merlin-CN druid 10/wiz5 Arthur-LG commoner1/paladin 10/ aris4 lancealot-LN fighter 11 sir galahad- LG paladin 10 Sir gwain- LN foghter 9 Guienivere- NG Aristrocrat 8 Sir kay- N ranger5/ fighter2 Morgan le fay- sor 10 mordren CE Fighter7/ rouge 2 lady of the lake- qusi-deity questons.... how so you think i schould handle camelot and avalon also does anyone know of the major gods in the celtic pantheon i may use the norse pantheon but i dunno
Xill-Lord Psionic Might 06-15-05, 09:31 AM	Sir Percivale- NG aristocrat 5/ fighter 3 Sir Gareth- LG paladin 8 Sir Bedivere LN fighter 9 Sir Tristan CG Bard4/ ranger 5
Chobemaster 06-15-05, 09:44 AM	Arthurian legend isn't really Christian anyway, it was just adapted to that, the roots are Celtic, INCLUDING the grail, which was originally a cauldron, so if you do some research of the earlier versions of the legend, alternate or no gods could easily be used. Don't forget Merlin "was" the offspring of an incubus (male version of succubus) and a mortal, so it would be totally reasonable to stat him out as half-fiend. Of course, that "smear" on his character was a Christian invention, to demonize (literally) and justify the use of magic. I highly suggest the use of Celtic deities, even though that doesn't lend itself quite as well to D&D as the Norse, IMO, since they didn't have the same "strong pantheon" feel.
Xill-Lord Psionic Might 06-15-05, 09:45 AM	a new question how do i handle the common races, and schould a add any alternate races
prettyripples 06-15-05, 09:47 AM	I seem to recall that in terms of skill at arms, you had Galahad > Lancelot > Arthur > Percival > Gawain > Mordred > Sir Kay. Certainly, Galahad was supposed to be perfect, and the only knight who could defeat Lancelot in a fight (though the main difference was that he was perfectly pure as well). Thus maybe give Lancelot another level, Galahad another 2? Most (but not all) of Arthur's strength comes from Excalibur (always cuts) and the scabbard (no bleeding). Without that, he could (and did) beat an 'ordinary' knight, but not one of the best.
clarkvalentine 06-15-05, 09:48 AM	Have you seen the RPG King Arthur Pendragon? It's designed to handle Arthurian knights. It's not d20, but reading through that would give you some great ideas for tone, adventures, setting, etc. even if you use D&D to run the game.
Chobemaster 06-15-05, 10:21 AM	a new question how do i handle the common races, and schould a add any alternate races That really depends on how much "arthurian" feel you want, and how much D&D feel you want. A true Arthurian wouldn't have any nonhuman races, as there weren't any nonhuman races in the stories at a "PC" level...non-humans are fey or demons. A more relaxed "Arthurian-like" setting that's Celtic in flavor should probably include elves (and therefore likely half-elves) as well. I personally would add halflings next, then dwarves, then orcs and gnomes, as I moved "away" from the true Arthurian toward D&D. IF you go with the Norse, then elves and dwarves should come in at the same time, then gnomes, then orcs and halflings.
TelinArtho 06-15-05, 10:25 AM	I would definitely suggest concentrating on one or two versions of the Arthurian legends. Right now, you've got an amalgamated mess of the legends (which is fine - but if your players know different versions as well - you might have a little bit of conflict about how it "should" be. You might even pick up the Arthurian Encyclopedia to help iron things out. One other thing to note - you might need to modify the paladin's abilities so they can't detect evil or adjust their code of ethics that prevents them from working with evil individuals. Depending on what you use for sources, Guenevere is a priestess as well - just as a note. /d
Venom of the Yuan Ti 06-15-05, 10:27 AM	thanx .i assume all the knights would be paladins...but what of lancealot he is never evil how ever he does fall from grace I can think of only one of the knights who truly qualifies as a paladin. Galahad. The others, fighters or rangers, maybe barbarian?
Callista 06-15-05, 10:35 AM	As for the religion: you have the sword in the stone, Excalibur, and Arthur's devotion to God. Excalibur can be a family heirloom, which he's given on ascending the throne. The sword in the stone can be a cursed object, or simply a magic item (perhaps made by the great caster Merlin) that will only react to those of royal blood. And Arthur can be devoted to the land instead of God, in almost a Druid-like fashion (so make Merlin a druid as well).Hmm... isn't Merlin a Druid (as in the real-world religion) in a lot of the stories? That male woodland deity would be a good one for him to be dedicated to; I've forgot his name, though. Starts with O?... Merlin's quite a bit more political than most druids, though, and I think he's probably LN rather than the traditional TN... depends on your version of Merlin though. Anyways, I would make Arthur a Paladin or Kensai (because of the "signature weapon"). The former would mean that he'd end up having to atone sometimes, though; but it's a good class for him and his knights, what with the horsemanship and chivalry thing. Have them devoted to St. Cuthbert--he's very medieval-flavored.
prettyripples 06-15-05, 10:55 AM	Hmm... isn't Merlin a Druid (as in the real-world religion) in a lot of the stories? I read the Christian versions (well, Arthur was certainly Christian). Having said that, they never did a very good job of converting Merlin...
SammasterT 06-15-05, 11:02 AM	also does anyone know of the major gods in the celtic pantheon i may use the norse pantheon but i dunno The Norse pantheon is next to identical to the Anglo-Saxon pantheon, both of which sprung from a common Germanic root. Of ocurse, instead of Odhinn it's Woden, instead of TyR its Tiw/Tio/Tiu/Tig, ThorR is Thunor, Yngvi-FreyR is Ingui-Frea, Frigga is Frige, etc. I can't recall all of the Celtic deities off the top of my head; Manannan mac Leir is a significant Celtic god ... after whom the island of Man (right next door to Wales, ie. Arthur's Camelot) was named. There is the Morrigan, Dagda ... thats about the extenbt of my Celtic god-lore.
SammasterT 06-15-05, 11:05 AM	Sir Percivale- NG aristocrat 5/ fighter 3 This dude was a paladin if there ever was one. In fact, there are stats for the Arthurian heroes in the old Deities and Demi-gods book.
SammasterT 06-15-05, 11:20 AM	Arthurian legend isn't really Christian anyway, it was just adapted to that, the roots are Celtic, INCLUDING the grail, which was originally a cauldron, so if you do some research of the earlier versions of the legend, alternate or no gods could easily be used. The Grail idea was very much tied up with the idea of the fractured land. Some say that San Greal (holy grail) is really just an obfuscation/corruption of older ideas that existed in NW Europe ... that older idea being Sang Real, meaning Blood Royal. The holiness of royal blood was part and parcel with Teutonic Kingship, and is the reason why we westerners think of Christ in terms of King and Lord ... which evoke preexisting ideas form our native culture. Merlin isn't the only one they did a poor job converting, or did someone forget the Reformation and what it was all about? Anyway, elder kings, who traced their lineage back to either Woden, Ingui, or Saxnote, were believed, at times, to have had speical powers to still strife amongst men, bring prosperity to the land, and to make the land/folk/deities whole. So, the vessel/s that contains the "sang real" are the members of the/a royal family. Some say the the Knights Templars were protecting, not a vessel, but rather the last surviving members of the Merovingians ... the sacral kingship of the French ... whom the pope had overthrown and replaced with the Frankish warlords, the Carolingians, of whom Charlemagne was prehaps the most prominent. His incessent warfare certainly fracture the land of France, forcing many a commoner to sell land, and even freedom, in the quest for Christian Empire.
Chobemaster 06-15-05, 11:43 AM	The Grail idea was very much tied up with the idea of the fractured land. Some say that San Greal (holy grail) is really just an obfuscation/corruption of older ideas that existed in NW Europe ... that older idea being Sang Real, meaning Blood Royal. The holiness of royal blood was part and parcel with Teutonic Kingship, and is the reason why we westerners think of Christ in terms of King and Lord ... which evoke preexisting ideas form our native culture. Merlin isn't the only one they did a poor job converting, or did someone forget the Reformation and what it was all about? Anyway, elder kings, who traced their lineage back to either Woden, Ingui, or Saxnote, were believed, at times, to have had speical powers to still strife amongst men, bring prosperity to the land, and to make the land/folk/deities whole. So, the vessel/s that contains the "sang real" are the members of the/a royal family. Some say the the Knights Templars were protecting, not a vessel, but rather the last surviving members of the Merovingians ... the sacral kingship of the French ... whom the pope had overthrown and replaced with the Frankish warlords, the Carolingians, of whom Charlemagne was prehaps the most prominent. His incessent warfare certainly fracture the land of France, forcing many a commoner to sell land, and even freedom, in the quest for Christian Empire. Yes, I too read DaVinci code. But the prechristian Welsh legends that are the root of the "core" Arthurian Tales included a physical vessel that had nothing to do with Mary Magdelene's daughter that was sought after for its magical properties.
clarkvalentine 06-15-05, 11:48 AM	I read the Christian versions (well, Arthur was certainly Christian). Having said that, they never did a very good job of converting Merlin... In many of the legelnds I've read, Arthur was best described as a Grail Christian, which is a mixture of early Christian beliefs, a pinch of Celtic paganism, and a dash of Pelagian heresy. Merlin may have encouraged this, seeing it as the best way to unify a religiously divided people.
Xill-Lord Psionic Might 06-15-05, 12:57 PM	I know this may be a little childish but im enticed to go the TH White Once and Future King style and im not going for historical correctness at all
SammasterT 06-15-05, 01:23 PM	Yes, I too read DaVinci code. But the prechristian Welsh legends that are the root of the "core" Arthurian Tales included a physical vessel that had nothing to do with Mary Magdelene's daughter that was sought after for its magical properties. I never read the DaVinci code, but I did see a documentary called something like Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Some interesting feets of intellectual gymnastics, not the least of which is looking to Christ for the "holy blood", when the French were a Teutonic tribe, the Merovingians a patently Teutonic kingship, and when the Teutonic tribes had a long standing tradition of sacral kingship. Blatantly ignore verifiable fact in favour of sheer speculation?!?!? Not. Also, while I'd not deny the cycles very strong Celtic root/basis, the mythos as we have it best comes from French and German sources (almost the same kingdom back in the day), who included, emphasized, and redefined elements of the tales they heard based upon their own culture and cultural values. Of course, Celtic and Teutonic cultures are, like the people themselves, very similiar, with much contact and interaction since the Aryan-Celts settled in Europe c.1500 BCE.
Chobemaster 06-15-05, 02:46 PM	I never read the DaVinci code, but I did see a documentary called something like Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Some interesting feets of intellectual gymnastics, not the least of which is looking to Christ for the "holy blood", when the French were a Teutonic tribe, the Merovingians a patently Teutonic kingship, and when the Teutonic tribes had a long standing tradition of sacral kingship. Blatantly ignore verifiable fact in favour of sheer speculation?!?!? Not. Also, while I'd not deny the cycles very strong Celtic root/basis, the mythos as we have it best comes from French and German sources (almost the same kingdom back in the day), who included, emphasized, and redefined elements of the tales they heard based upon their own culture and cultural values. Of course, Celtic and Teutonic cultures are, like the people themselves, very similiar, with much contact and interaction since the Aryan-Celts settled in Europe c.1500 BCE. The real "explosion" of Arthurian legend in something close to the current form was troubadors from Brittany spreading it across France. I'm not aware of particular German influence. And I don't dispute (indeed even address) the blood of kings being sacred to Teutonic cultures...but that cultural item is a feeder to the CORRUPTION of the Arthur tales, not a reflection on them. That said, it's still a valid substitute for the cup Indiana Jones held, if one is needed for this campaign.
TelinArtho 06-15-05, 02:59 PM	If you are only using White's texts as a reference - then just make sure you are well versed in them. A lot of the posters in response to your original post were using Malory as a source (in one form or another). White's texts are vastly different. And I wouldn't call it childish at all. White is a benchmark, third on the list usually (behind de Troyes and Malory). Personally, if you want a different take on it, I recommend Bernard Cornwell's series which gives a more martial/military point of view of the Arthurian legends. Also, I can't stress enough how great Chretien de Troyes was... even in the modern English translations. /d
SammasterT 06-15-05, 03:32 PM	The German was Wolfram ... whom gave us Percival if I recall correctly. I hardly see how a Germanic influence could have "corrupted" an otherwise highly eclectic mythos; especially one with a Celtic basis.
20goingon1232 06-15-05, 05:03 PM	Xill - Oh no.... Nononononononono! :( Arthur is NOT a Paladin. Please. Don't do that. It hurts my eyes....! Arthur was a Fighter. A pretty poor one at that. He is mainly aristocrat, not a commoner. If you want about 15 levels, then I'd put him as Aris10/Ftr4. Tops. Merlin is not a Wizard, as DnD portrays wizards. He is a Sorceror (no memorising, zap on a whim and, most importantly, half-fey). In fact, you might want to use the half-fey template for him. It's in one of the splatbooks. Callista - If you want a more Celtic feel, it is Cernunnos that he will worship. Merlin is definitely LN. SamMasterT - The link to a Germanic beginning is tenuous at best. Arthur was most likely Welsh, and spread to the other British Celts fair quickly. The Holy Blood alluded to is the blood of Christ.
SammasterT 06-15-05, 05:47 PM	SamMasterT - The link to a Germanic beginning is tenuous at best. Arthur was most likely Welsh, and spread to the other British Celts fair quickly. The Holy Blood alluded to is the blood of Christ. Well, maybe. But then, thats a bit like saying the Germanic link to Catholicism itself is tenuous at best, when in fact Teutonic belief and culture defined early Medieval Catholicsm ... and continues to define pop Christianity in the West.
TinManFan 06-15-05, 07:10 PM	Ok, first off, put Merlin as a N. Weren't no L in there at all. Only reason he gave a fling about Big A and the KNights of the Circular Desk was cause they were his friends. N Sorc 12 or so oughtta do it. He was blasting around people not use to that crap so a burning hands would do wonders where a meteor swarm barely gets a raised eyebrow in Faerun. As for a good source for gods, take a look at the OLD OLD OLD 1st ed Dieties books. The same one with the write ups for the knights. I'll be digging around for something to read anyway, if ya want, I'll pop them on here for ya. As for the grail. The main, main MAIN MAIN MAIN point of those stories wasn't the actual object. Half the time, the major theme of those stories ishow to be a good pure knight without being a frikkin idiot (Percifal), and the other half is about the quest itself. So as long as you have a nice juicy artifact from a splat books (I know it'll be tough to find one of them but try... :rolleyes: ) and you tempt them here or there and have people expect them to act like human beings instead of frikkin idiots, you'll be good to go. As for races. Maybe this is a predominantly human land, and all the demi-humans are form other lands. You said there were different influences you wanted to use for different lands, just stick all the orcs and crap there. Prolly wanna keep Fey and dragons around but other than that, not much.
20goingon1232 06-15-05, 08:27 PM	Sam - Name where in any of King Arthur's stories that Germania was involved. In fact, Arthur is most closely linked (historically, that is), to the battle at Mt Badon, where the native Bretons defeated the Saxons. It was the last battle they were to do so before they were finally conquered by the Saxons.
TinManFan 06-15-05, 08:41 PM	Ok, uh, hate to tell ya but England WAS German. After the Romans bugged out, they were gettin their butts kicked, so they looked at the nice Anglo Saxxons over in Germany and said "Hey, we'll pay you to come defend us". A-Saxons said "Sure" and did so. In doing so, they got a chance to look around at what they were defending and said "Ya know what? Nice digs" and proceeded to take out the axes and push the natives into Wales where the only indigenous people of england survived (Cause scottland's natives were wiped out when the natives of Ireland came over in about 1500 or 500 BC, forget which) and pushed the remaining peoples South. So of COURSE it's got German influences. The stories were propeganda to sell people the idea of Chilvelry. It was a big deal in England cause it was the only "European" "Country" that Charlemegne didn't take over and set the rules for.
20goingon1232 06-15-05, 08:57 PM	TinMan - Incorrect. Arthur's tales traces back to Roman times on the British Isles and, depending on who you listen to, beyond. The Saxons can after, and they were invaders. The only reason why people even think Lancelot was French is because they couldn't find a name where that one could have come from except for Launcelot, which SOUNDED French. If you are talking about the Celts, that is another matter entirely. If you are trying to equate the Germanic tribes with the Celts of Britain, you might as well say that the French and the Germans are the same people today or the Koreans and the Japanese. Same genetic stock and similar cultural backgrounds do not the same people make.
TinManFan 06-15-05, 09:20 PM	No, I'm saying the Germans came over and took over after being invited. Pushed the Celts back into Wales where they remained their own people till Edward Uno (AKA the old guy in Braveheart) took over and pretty much drafted the lot of them into service by making them show everyone in the kindom how to use the Longbow. The tales, unf, are mostly of Alfred the Great. ESP any of the tales talking about how great a guy or any talking about his humility. The rest may well be based in celt folk tales and legends, but thats another matter for debate.
20goingon1232 06-16-05, 05:49 AM	TinMan - :clap: When did Alfred the Great rule? Before or after the Saxon's defeat at Mt Badon (ie., before or after the Saxons took over England)? Please note that I know the answer. I am giving you one last chance to get out of the hole you just dug yourself.
TinManFan 06-16-05, 07:46 AM	9th cent. I'm saying the STORIES of Arthur were based on him because the real King Arthur wasn't anything to celebrate, so they took a lot of the folk tales about Alfred (Cause for some frikkin reason there were a lot of them) and co-opted them.
Xill-Lord Psionic Might 06-16-05, 07:58 AM	Xill - Oh no.... Nononononononono! :( Arthur is NOT a Paladin. Please. Don't do that. It hurts my eyes....! Arthur was a Fighter. A pretty poor one at that. He is mainly aristocrat, not a commoner. If you want about 15 levels, then I'd put him as Aris10/Ftr4. Tops. Merlin is not a Wizard, as DnD portrays wizards. He is a Sorceror (no memorising, zap on a whim and, most importantly, half-fey). In fact, you might want to use the half-fey template for him. It's in one of the splatbooks. Callista - If you want a more Celtic feel, it is Cernunnos that he will worship. Merlin is definitely LN. SamMasterT - The link to a Germanic beginning is tenuous at best. Arthur was most likely Welsh, and spread to the other British Celts fair quickly. The Holy Blood alluded to is the blood of Christ. I you've seen sean connerys portaryial of arthur in camelot and still dont think hes a paladin then i dunno what arthur is ive always thought of arthur as a the arch typical paladin, he has afew levels of commoner because im going with the TH White style and in Once and Future King he beggins as wart
SammasterT 06-16-05, 11:43 AM	The historical context of Dux-Bellorum Arthur, a former Roman soldier who lingered in a small corner of a long conquored and recently abandoned "Celtic" Britain, is really irrelevent next to who handled the subject matter as we have it and who they handled it for. The Germanic culture was the prevailing culture of the Middle Ages, and all of the kings, whom were also patron of the arts, were also Germanic. To reiterate the point, Christianity was Judeao-Hellenistic in origin, but that didn't stop it from being completely Germanized in the West, and hasn't stopped folk of many far flung and varied cultures and cults from interpreting and reinterpreting it according to their own culture. Also, regarding the Anglo-Saxon in Britain, they were hired by Vortigern to come over and defend the British against the Picts. They did so, only to have Vortigern turn around and refuse them their well earned pay. The relationship was much like that between the Franks and the Gauls, save that the Gauls actually honoured their country-dwelling defenders, whilst the Brits reckoned the English their battle-slaves or something, and ended up paying that outstanding fee the hard way. The point being, :) the English didn't just decide that Britain looked good and was ripe for conquest, anymore than the Franks decided Gaul was ripe for conquest or the Goths that Rome was ripe. Various, complex historical forces led up to these events, and one will note that the prevaling culture in both France and Italy isn't Germanic today ... which is really something considering how the Teutonic folk were in an ideal position to force their will, and were supposed to be mere bloodyminded barbarians, contemptuous of the weak and hateful of civilization. Hmmmmmmmm ....
20goingon1232 06-16-05, 04:59 PM	Sam/Tin - Yes. And next thing you'd tell me is Hitler was just misunderstood.... Get over yourselves. There is nothing to support your claims. Even the Arthurian Encyclopedia only mentions Germania ONCE, and that is in connection with some of the tales that came up in Germany in the 15th or 17th Century. Xill - Nope. Being a Paladin is more than just being kingly and noble. It is religious as well. Connery's Arthur is a LG Fighter, no more, no less. You have to remember that Arthur's religiousness (or lack of) is never a big factor. Yes, there is the Grail Quest, but that does not speak much about his piety. Some of his knights were pious do-gooders and those I don't mind classifying as Paladins. Arthur's background is a bit weird. I'd put him as Aristocrat because in some tales, he was raised in the household of Sir Kay. Yes, he was the fetch it boy, but he did learn quite a bit from that and had Merlin as a mentor. I'd definitely put him above a commoner. Personally, I'd make him a mid-level (6-8) character, not a high level one. I'd reserve that for the really good/powerful knights, like Galahaut, Parsifal and Lancelot.
TinManFan 06-16-05, 05:27 PM	Nothing to support our claims. Except HISTORY. Crack a book, one not made by WoTC sometime. As for the Saxxons being withheld their pay, admittedly, my Early Brit Hist prof was VERY pro-Saxxon so he might've downplayed that lil aspect. But come on. Inviting a whole buncha people over and say "Hey, we suck at defending ourselves, you wanna do it" and not thinking yer gonna get conquered, makes ya kinda deserve it.
20goingon1232 06-16-05, 07:10 PM	TinMan - Funny how you accuse me of reading only WotC books when I have quoted everything from Mallory to TH White to the Arthurian Encyclopedia. Perhaps you need to get out a bit more and see the world for what it is and was instead of your reality impaired, historically revised works.
TinManFan 06-17-05, 03:32 AM	So you've read 3 books. In the school district I teach at, that would be good for one weeks worth of reading. Go get yerself a cookie
20goingon1232 06-17-05, 04:54 AM	TinMan - Incorrect. I have quoted from AT LEAST three. How many I have read, on the other hand, is something you can only imagine.
Maerdash 06-17-05, 05:32 AM	Edit:Nevermind I decided 20goingon1232 is doing a smashing job himself and doesn't need my help.