Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Myer Lynk 10-13-04, 03:42 PM	:) Hello all who have taken the time to take a look, I was reading through the Players handbook and found an interesting part that mentioned "tweaking" classes to a character idea. The example is that of a rogue who becomes a fighter instead becuase he wants to be a body guard and he gets the normal bonus feats of a fighter of course, 4+ int in skills and has the normal fighter skills but with gather info and diplomacy (if I remember correctly) as additional class skills. Now with this in mind if I take kind of the same principal and say that the story is my fighter grew up on the outskirts of the jungle and so he just be trained to hear and see things before they are ontop of him and so I was hoping that making a normal fighter and getting him the 4+int in skills and having spot, listen and survival as additional class skills would not stretch things out to far, this would after all be special training that I have been put through since I could lift a sword. :confused: Any and Every input on this would be appreciated (well to a point of course)
Magnus029 10-13-04, 03:48 PM	From what I am reading is that you want ALL the benefits of being a fighter + 3 more class skils AND 2 more skill points per level?
EatFlan 10-13-04, 03:50 PM	If you did that I would take away the feat @ 2nd level as well as the option of weapon specialization. 2 feats for 50-100% more skill points is worthwhile. Also maybe remove some of the given fighter skills, esp. ones that require heavy interaction with others. since i don't know the ftr skill set i'd say a penalty on things such as: - diplomacy - sense motive - innuendo etc. crap that requires that you interact with people, not jungle snakes and monkeys with blue butts.
PenderGrass 10-13-04, 03:58 PM	I would not allow it. I would rather point you to the Ranger Class and tell you to take that if you wanted Class Skills, plus you would get the 6+Int Skill Points. Spot and Listen are HUGE Skills in D&D as they are the primary Skills called for to detect ambushes being sprung on you. A Fighter gains a Bonus Feat(s) and therefore has certain advantages over the Ranger as well. Allowing a Player to bypass this would be a downfall to the Ranger and overall a major Boon to the Fighter, an Unwarranted Boon, in fact. In addition, they are Untrained Feats (Listen and Spot), so a Fighter could buy the Alertness Feat if he was that hot and heavy to being good at it. Now, in some games you may find that DMs allow Regional Feats - and you may convince me to allow your PC to have a special Alertness Feat useable only in the Jungle from having been raised in the Jungle as a Fighter (in other words, a Bonus Feat for the Region you grew up in). But, initially I would tell you 'no' - just because I am like that. ****
Myer Lynk 10-13-04, 03:59 PM	Ok so sacrificing the posibility of weapon specialization and the feat at 2nd lvl all together is acceptable, also it was mentioned that he be a bit "crude" when it comes to social interaction?? so for that is it safe to say he would take -1 on all social skills (charisma based skills)
LukiLoki 10-13-04, 04:10 PM	Yeah, you've gotta give up something. How 'bout this: Primitive Fighter Spot, Listen, Survival & Know. (nature) as class skills in addition to standard 4+Int skill points No martial weapons proficiency No heavy armor proficiency
Fixxxer 10-13-04, 04:11 PM	I'm all for tweaking the classes to fit the PC. However, what you're suggesting has absolutely no drawback. That's something I wouldn't allow. In order to have a benefit, you must have a drawback. For instance, if you wanted Spot and Listen as class skills because your story says that you were specifically trained to hunt in the jungle, I'd remove Climb and Swim from your class list, saying that since you spent so much time in the jungle, you never had enough contact with these two skills to warrant having them as class skills.
Grayson 10-13-04, 04:12 PM	One word: Ranger
Myer Lynk 10-13-04, 04:14 PM	I would not allow it. I would rather point you to the Ranger Class and tell you to take that if you wanted Class Skills, plus you would get the 6+Int Skill Points. Spot and Listen are HUGE Skills in D&D as they are the primary Skills called for to detect ambushes being sprung on you. A Fighter gains a Bonus Feat(s) and therefore has certain advantages over the Ranger as well. Allowing a Player to bypass this would be a downfall to the Ranger and overall a major Boon to the Fighter, an Unwarranted Boon, in fact. In addition, they are Untrained Feats (Listen and Spot), so a Fighter could buy the Alertness Feat if he was that hot and heavy to being good at it. Now, in some games you may find that DMs allow Regional Feats - and you may convince me to allow your PC to have a special Alertness Feat useable only in the Jungle from having been raised in the Jungle as a Fighter (in other words, a Bonus Feat for the Region you grew up in). But, initially I would tell you 'no' - just because I am like that. **** Well I would rather alter a class a little then multiclass, so with that in mind what can I sacrifice to get it this way? can you give me an idea of what I can do to make this balanced, it doesn't seem that bad the ranger gets spells and better skills. And yes you caught me spot and listen are very important for survival, maybe even right up there with the armor you wear
Board_Rider 10-13-04, 04:16 PM	I would be a Ranger (as Pender & Grayson offered) and dabble in Rogue. Be a human (4 bonus skill pts. at 1st level + 2 every level) and enjoy. Remember a class can be tweaked also in a way meaning that your Rogue half doesn't have to be all sneaky and your Ranger half doesn't have to be the bearded/dirty woodsman. This is an all time favorite mix for me. Posted during your thoughts on multiclassing so you can disregard if you wish.
Myer Lynk 10-13-04, 04:17 PM	I'm all for tweaking the classes to fit the PC. However, what you're suggesting has absolutely no drawback. That's something I wouldn't allow. In order to have a benefit, you must have a drawback. For instance, if you wanted Spot and Listen as class skills because your story says that you were specifically trained to hunt in the jungle, I'd remove Climb and Swim from your class list, saying that since you spent so much time in the jungle, you never had enough contact with these two skills to warrant having them as class skills. thats exactly why I wanted to ask I want to get this in balance!! I will give up some bonus feats if need be
Myer Lynk 10-13-04, 04:36 PM	What about this: 4+int on skills skill list: swim,ride,jump,climb,survival,spot,liste n,knowledge nature light and medium armor prof no prof in heavy armor or shields bonus feats at 1,2,6,8,12,14,18,20 not able to get weapon specialization I think this is more balance, you don't get all the class skills and skill points like a ranger or any spells, no favored enemy, the ranger gets 5 bonus feats (track, endurance, and three combat style feats)
Magnus029 10-13-04, 04:58 PM	What about this: 4+int on skills skill list: swim,ride,jump,climb,survival,spot,liste n,knowledge nature light and medium armor prof no prof in heavy armor or shields bonus feats at 1,2,6,8,12,14,18,20 not able to get weapon specialization I think this is more balance, you don't get all the class skills and skill points like a ranger or any spells, no favored enemy, the ranger gets 5 bonus feats (track, endurance, and three combat style feats) I would either lose another 2 feats or kick the HD down to match the ranger.
zioth 10-13-04, 05:37 PM	What about this: 4+int on skills skill list: swim,ride,jump,climb,survival,spot,liste n,knowledge nature light and medium armor prof no prof in heavy armor or shields bonus feats at 1,2,6,8,12,14,18,20 not able to get weapon specialization So you lose three feats and heavy armor, in exchange for a few good skills and extra skill points. It certainly sounds reasonable to me. Personally, I'd be fine with taking away only two of your bonus feats, though they'd be earlier. Since you have all those extra class skills and skill ranks from the beginning, you should lose some fighter abilities in the beginning. As it is, you're considerably more powerful than a standard fighter for the first two levels. Remember that the 4+int skill points mean you get eight extra skill points at level 1. I think you should lose your 1st and 6th level feats, and keep all the rest. Knocking out the heavy armor is nice too, since it seems to fit the character concept. It can always be taken as a feat later on, when your character gains some experience in more civilized areas.
Polymorph 10-14-04, 03:44 AM	So you want special skills, because you come form an area, where you had to learn certain things. no need for classtweaking, this is a typical regional feat matter. A regional feat that makes survival and knowledge nature class skills for all classes you take is well within it's limits. I am abslutely positive that your Dm will say the same. Tweaking your class to get 4+ int skillpoints, more class skills etc. ... dream on. :rolleyes:
Mister Mayhem 10-14-04, 07:40 AM	I'm all for class modification, prefering it to wild prestige classes or mad multi-classing. But in this instance, I have to wonder: A fighter who grew up away from civilisation, and is thus more skill points and has listen as a class skill? Sounds like a good case for playing a Barbarian.
markhaus 10-14-04, 07:55 AM	Ask your DM to tweak the ranger as follows: Use the spelless ranger variant. Replace Combat Style w/ fighter bonus feat (allowing weapon spec). Drop favored enemy. (meaning bonus fighter feat at 2,6,11) If you are really hung up on d10 HD ask to drop skill points to 4 and only have good fortitude save. (if you feel this is too powerful compared to the fighter then there is something seriously wrong with the fighter)
markhaus 10-14-04, 08:00 AM	Or just add +2 skill points (meaning 4+int per level) and add spot, listen and survival to the fighter b/c he is underpowered.
Shard of Suzail 10-14-04, 08:42 AM	I wouldnt accept a "bodyguard in training". I`d demand a prestige class loyal defender (or whatever they are called). A bodyguard should be a professional and highly levelled hero. When it comes to roles like that, then only worry about them at higher levels. Which is what prestige is all about. Otherwise you could make a base class for pretty much everything you ever needed, which defeats the object. Stick with ranger as everyone suggests, though certainly consider the option or "urban ranger" where survival is dropped in favour of gather information (as seen in masters of the wild). Now that is a "tweak", a very minor adjustment that makes a lot of sense. Messing about with skill points and feats is really reserved for Prestige in my opinion unless you are going for some really radical stuff, like a whole alien culture.
Myer Lynk 10-14-04, 10:18 AM	Thank you all for your Imput, From what I gathered its either a safer bet to multiclass or create a Prc to keep this clean. :O)