Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KismetRose 11-19-04, 02:18 AM	I have this player. He was, at one time, one of my best players. He came to the game to have fun. He was ready for anything. He had a flexibility that was truly a joy to a DM; you could reward or torment him in character and as long as you did it well, he enjoyed it. He wanted me to use his character for all sorts of plots because he enjoyed being involved. He plays a paladin character, but he's never really played a paladin very well. I admit that I was too lax in regard to enforcing his code. At first, I didn't feel that I had to enforce that much because his character naturally tried to help people and cared about them. Over time he became callous. I should have punished him outright, shown immediate divine displeasure, and I didn't. I didn't mind giving him some wiggle room because he has been playing a paladin of Sune and Sune is a fairly relaxed goddess in my opinion. I did mind when he began to disregard NPCs as though they were of little consequence, and I have minded when he has fallen to disregarding his fellow PCs. Some time ago (in the spring of 2003), his paladin met a particular evil character who has a love ability; those who touch her must make a will save or fall in love with her (and she's a monk, tee hee). His paladin fell in love with her and the player ran with it, and back then he was still okay. Eventually his character overcame the effect and was told all about how evil she was. But when he happened back into her neck of the woods again he went straight to her, disregarding his good NPC followers and his PC friends. They were not pleased. He left with his friends so that he could establish his followers in his own city...and then leave them at home so he could pursue the evil monk. The player made up his mind that the character was going to fall in all ways possible for her, but he neglected to tell anyone else about it. He just thought he would sneak off and do it. And from what I've been able to tell, he thought that would be the equivalent of walking off into the glorious sunset. The trouble was, the PCs caught wind of it. They used a spell to make him forget he ever had sexual relations with said monk. Since the paldin's relationship with her was majorly sensual, he didn't have the push to leave. He remained. And things have gone downhill ever since. His roleplaying steadily lessened and now he is never in character for long. The player has convinced himself that he hates the character, hates playing a paladin, because he has not been able to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. He has complained about restrictions when I have not been nearly as strict as the book calls for. His character also started to try to bully people around a bit. His paladin tried to start a fight with an NPC for bumping into him and not saying excuse me; when she accepted his challenge he beat her easily because she was only first level and he's quite a few higher. I have done all sorts of things to try to help him enjoy the game again. He gave me the impression he wanted me to lighten the mood around his character. I gave him some nice, happy story plots. He complained that there wasn't enough combat. I made a decent-sized quest for his character and another player, and there was combat all over the place that was quite challenging, and the tone was still relatively light. (The other player was so happy about that quest and still remarks about how good it was.) He took the Leadership feat and I made him a grip of interesting NPCs to take followers from. The whole group loves those NPCs. I have taken numerous times to talk to him. I have used various tactics to try to ask questions, to try to get him to work with me. He has even said a few times that he would try, but come game day those promises are dead in the air. When things just ground down and he wanted to play a different character, I let him bring in a different character. The new character was as dry as cardboard. He was interested in combat only; when his character was not fighting or preparing to fight in some fashion, he would drink at an inn or just stay in his room. I asked if he could try a different character with perhaps a little personality. He made a barbarian just as the group was starting a major diplomatic mission. Even though he knew the mission's intent, he went through with the barbarian. He did the whole "what's a fork? Who, me, smell?" routine of the dumb barbarian. He continued with the bullying, again trying to push around an NPC - but time he bullied an NPC that the rest of the group is rather fond of, and they warned the barbarian about touching him. The barbarian lasted two game sessions and the player said he'd try his paladin again. This time has been the worst. He goes out of his way so that his character doesn't have a good time. He sends his character drinking alone in dangerous places hoping that combat will spring up everywhere. How am I supposed to run combat every time he goes out if I have three other players away from the scene, wanting to play out other scenes, not interested in his crap? His paladin threatened the cohort of another PC last game session and that nearly got ugly quick. After all this time and effort, I feel as though I am at my wit's end with this player. I have tried so many things and nothing has worked well or for long. And I keep getting the feeling that this is willful on his part, at least to an extent. After much analysis I feel that he does not like my style of running anymore. He wants nothing more than combat, treasure, and the power to bully people around to feel bigger. I don't run games for that. I can run combat, and my people have treasure, and if he were playing an evil character there would be people for him to push around - but I run so much more than that, and I always will. He told my boyfriend that he was "done talking to NPCs" - and even in an evil campaign there would be roleplaying. He knows that. After nearly three years of gaming under me, he knows my style. So why does he continue to show up if he's so dissatisfied? And here's the crux of the trouble: he won't tell me anything of consequence. He won't come out and say what's wrong. He won't even take a guess at it. He won't tell me if he wants a break or if he wants out of the game. He gets quiet. He says what he thinks people want to hear instead of what he really thinks. It's maddening. Now I understand that he doesn't want to hurt my feelings. We are all, as I said, friends, and we've been gaming together for almost three years (a lot of it spent in this particular campaign). I can see why he might not want to tell me he thinks I suck or some such thing. I must admit that the thought does not please me. But as it stands I have little to go on. Surely he could come up with something. Surely he could make a stand of some kind. But with the little games he tries to play he may just be trying to maneuver me into being the one to do something about it so he doesn't have to. He does not like direct confrontation; in real life he will avoid people and phone calls so as not to have to deal with them. I don't want to wreck friendships. I don't want to hurt our group in any way. The rest of us are having so much fun, especially lately. I just don't know what to do about him. I've found myself being less nice in my approaches to him lately; I work full time and deal with a lot of stress, I'm tired of this extra mess. I work hard for my game and for my player's enjoyment. I may not be the best but I must be doing something right because our game has been so good overall. My other players have grown and changed and really enjoyed themselves for the last three years. So why can't he just give me a break one way or the other?
Arcen 11-19-04, 02:32 AM	First, I would sit down with your friend and try to get to the bottom of this. Tell him your worries and be sure to let him know how great a player he is (was). Maybe he's getting bored with this character. It sounds like you guys have been playing the same campaign for ages. Suggest he try a new PC, maybe a wizard or a sorceror.
KismetRose 11-19-04, 02:45 AM	First, I would sit down with your friend and try to get to the bottom of this. Tell him your worries and be sure to let him know how great a player he is (was). Maybe he's getting bored with this character. It sounds like you guys have been playing the same campaign for ages. Suggest he try a new PC, maybe a wizard or a sorceror. I've sat down with him more times than I can remember about this, trying to get anywhere near the bottom. I have told him my worries in many different ways. He never gives me any real responses I can use. I have also suggested other classes to him, like wizard/sorcerer. He made a joyless attempt at a wizard's stats but stopped half way through; he doesn't like spellcasters because they can't wade into the thick of battle like he wants them to. He tried a druid/sorcerer in a smaller game I ran but that didn't work as he'd imagined, and he stopped. We've played other, smaller campaigns over our three years, too.
Telperion 11-19-04, 02:49 AM	I have this player. He was, at one time, one of my best players. He came to the game to have fun. He was ready for anything. He had a flexibility that was truly a joy to a DM; you could reward or torment him in character and as long as you did it well, he enjoyed it. He wanted me to use his character for all sorts of plots because he enjoyed being involved. You know, when I started reading this I immediately thought of my own experience with a paladin character in a Role Master campaign that I nearly quit because of various reasons. Paladins are very difficult to play properly. At first it was fun and amusing, but with a clearly defined code of conduct there really is little room for errors and misinterpretations. Usually people have to play with fairly strict rules that are defined by the game. When a player picks up a paladin character there's a whole new set of rules that he has to follow in-character. Although this can be fun first it can get very tiresome and difficult after a while. He plays a paladin character, but he's never really played a paladin very well. I admit that I was too lax in regard to enforcing his code. At first, I didn't feel that I had to enforce that much because his character naturally tried to help people and cared about them. Over time he became callous. I should have punished him outright, shown immediate divine displeasure, and I didn't. I didn't mind giving him some wiggle room because he has been playing a paladin of Sune and Sune is a fairly relaxed goddess in my opinion. I did mind when he began to disregard NPCs as though they were of little consequence, and I have minded when he has fallen to disregarding his fellow PCs. It is generally a good idea to write down a clearly defined Code of Conduct. If a paladin breaches his Code the DM should be able to pick up a piece of paper and read from it what he has done wrong. There's not much a player can do against written word, I have noticed... The player made up his mind that the character was going to fall in all ways possible for her, but he neglected to tell anyone else about it. He just thought he would sneak off and do it. And from what I've been able to tell, he thought that would be the equivalent of walking off into the glorious sunset. The player is clearly bored and wants to do something else. His roleplaying steadily lessened and now he is never in character for long. The player has convinced himself that he hates the character, hates playing a paladin, because he has not been able to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. He has complained about restrictions when I have not been nearly as strict as the book calls for. His character also started to try to bully people around a bit. His paladin tried to start a fight with an NPC for bumping into him and not saying excuse me; when she accepted his challenge he beat her easily because she was only first level and he's quite a few higher. You know, everyone goes through these phases if you are stressed, have problems of your own or you are simply bored with the current game. Noticing what an idiot the DM is doesn't help either, and at that point your average players starts to pay more attention to what the DM doesn't do as opposed to paying attention to the game. The player then starts to resent the DM for doing a "poor job", because the DM isn't performing to the imaginary expectations of the player. Whether or not the players expectations are at all realistic is another thing. Personally I have more than a decade of GM experience behind me and I can generally smell a bad GM a mile away. I usually stay away from GMs who mostly I disagree with, who run games I don't like or who are simply inept in their role as a Game Master. From what you are telling you seem to be a good DM, but the player simply isn't interested in what you are offering. You know, sometimes people just grow tired of RPGs. Maybe he needs to go play some computer games or kick a football instead? Generally speaking I don't play RPGs with my friends. There are friends I hang out with and then there are those I run a game with. The two groups don't mix. Having a certain personal detachment to one's gaming group can be a real blessing when it is time to let someone go or have a few choice words with a bad player. I'm not there to be their best friend, but I can be their buddy if they want me to. I have witnessed some really ugly stuff when people bring their friendships into a game and then start playing with them. Suddenly your best friend is stabbing you in the back. Well, would he do that in the real world as well? Sure, this is roleplaying, but what does he really think about me? Is he upset with the game I'm running or is it something more personal? Come to think of it, I should probably talk to him after the game, but how should I do that without potentially hurtin his feeling...and so it goes...on and on and on...and on...
Eindrachen 11-19-04, 02:52 AM	If it were me, I'd make him suffer the consequences of his action. Strip him of his powers. Have NPCs looking to make a name for themselves by taking out the (obviously) big and tough warrior. Have his followers start leaving, along with his cohort (and adjust his Leadership score accordingly for his negative reputation; if the other PCs have Leadership, maybe the NPCs they so love will start serving them, instead). If he's smart enough to figure that you're penalizing his behavior, he can either remedy it, or deal with it. If he's interested in a real challenge, perhaps he can turn Blackguard. The problem with this, naturally, is that he'll probably be too stupid to keep his evil low-key, and the other PCs will have to can him like tuna. If he starts whining to you, tell him that you are sorry he's not having fun, and that if he can't tell you what's wrong, he might consider taking a break from the game for a while. If he tries to refuse to leave or change his ways, then tell him that for the good of the other players, you will not be inviting him back until he can deal with the game better. Don't be abrupt with him; I sense something else is wrong here. But be firm enough to let him know that his behavior, while forgivable, isn't something you and the others will let go on forever. He's got to learn how to be a better player if he wants to be invited to games in the future. Good luck...
Bringslite 11-19-04, 04:39 AM	Could it be that this player is having some troubles in his RL? Maybe he is depressed or emotionally distraught and it is leaking over into his gaming. We all try to leave RL behind when we pick up the dice but it can be hard if we are sufficiently stressed. Sounds like you have made numerous tries with the "talk it out" angle. If you are really good friends then invite him to read this thread. Your post really shows your concern and sometimes the written word is far better for communication then the awkward face to face talk. Peoples interests change. Thier hobbies, attitudes, personalities can all change. If he won't talk to you about his downward spiral then perhaps you should let him go. Sad, but the total group's enjoyment is more important than one individual's lack of enthusiasm and bully ways.
egeborg 11-19-04, 04:43 AM	... Meet with this friend of yours eye to eye, with no-one else around. Just ask him: what's wrong friend? Easy enough! :)
Telperion 11-19-04, 05:11 AM	... Meet with this friend of yours eye to eye, with no-one else around. Just ask him: what's wrong friend? Easy enough! :) Sounds like it's been tried already... :thumbsdow And here's the crux of the trouble: he won't tell me anything of consequence. He won't come out and say what's wrong. He won't even take a guess at it. He won't tell me if he wants a break or if he wants out of the game. He gets quiet. He says what he thinks people want to hear instead of what he really thinks. It's maddening. :raincloud
Cantankerous 11-19-04, 05:36 AM	KismetRose, Once you've tried all you can, you simply present the situations and go about your business as DM. It's not all on you to make him enjoy himself. You sound like you've done your job and he's being obstinate. Sometimes, even with friends, we just have to back off a bit and let them work it out on their own. If he plays the paladin at all out of line I'd have a Priestess, a young one, full of zeal and innocence, of Sune meet with him and tell him that the goddess has sent her a dream about him, a dream of deep disfavor. The goddess has been patient, but her patience with her servant (the Paladin is definately a servant of the deity) is fast nearing it's end. He must now prove himself worthy or she will turn away from him. By his reaction you conduct business as though you'd never met this player. If he is rude and out of line, "You see in her eyes for the breifest of instants anger, but then sorrow and loss. She shakes her head sadly and placing a single hand beside your face for the breifest of instants... and then is simply gone, not there anymore, and the feeling of conectedness to Sune that you have had, always, too is gone." Then strip the paladial abilities and continue the game. He if acts disruptive ask him to wait until after the session and if he won't, ask him to leave. At some point you are going to have to either break it off or force the issue. It's very possible to be too nice, and that's what I'm sensing here. You're too nice for your (and the other players) own good. Isshia
penchant 11-19-04, 05:50 AM	I agree with Bringslite. You don't have player problems, you have friend problems. Forget the game (don't excommunicate me guys) and focus on what might be of greater issue. Don't be afraid to put things on haitus. I have had friends that didn't have an outlet and took their frustrations out in the game in unhealthy ways. Of course asking for help on social issues is not likely to find fruit here. I mean we are gamers on a D&D message board. What do we know about socialization? Seriously, Be a pal and get nosy. Listen, think and help.
ShadowDragon8685 11-19-04, 06:03 AM	Alternatively, give him a royal kick in the ass, out of the game. This sounds like he's getting all mopey because his paladin can't go screwing the evilgirl anymore. Maybe he felt it was time to retire that character, and the other PCs did something to screw him over? Or, maybe he's having emotional problems on the home front. Either way, sort him out and get him squared away, or he's gonna torpedo your game big-time.
PhaedrusXY 11-19-04, 06:42 AM	Here is my guess, from what you've said. And realize it might not be true... I think he has or had a crush on you, but thought too much of you and/or your boyfriend to say/do anything about it. He enjoyed the attention you lavished on him at your games. And he really got into the idea of roleplaying some fantasy romance with an NPC you cooked up (i.e. with YOU). Perhaps he thought you might have been interested in him at that time, also, and were using this NPC to act it out in game. When it became obvious that you didn't want to continue roleplaying this love affair between your NPC and his character, he became frustrated. If I am right at all, he probably has all kind of conflicting feelings about all of this, and may not understand them all himself. Good luck resolving this without losing a friendship. It could be that I'm wrong, but it certainly seems to explain it all very well, at least from my point of view.
jasper 11-19-04, 10:08 AM	When a player is tired of character, let the character retired. And let the player bring in a new character of same or nearly the same level. This is a game.
Core 11-19-04, 11:20 AM	I agree with PhaedrusXY, that would explain his reticance and malaise. Whatever the cause though, if he's unhappy being a paladin (hence the complaints about the code of conduct) and he's roleplaying it that way, then act out the consequences - it certainly doesn't sound like he's acting lawful good, though probably not evil yet - he should loose his paladin powers, and be required to atone and change his ways if he wants them back. It might be worthwhile suggesting something like a Cavalier if he's acting lawful neutral (sounds like he's being a bully but acting within the law). Hospilaler (similar to a paladin but not having to be good) would possibly allow him to keep some of his paladin abilities (if you're generous) whilst sliding towards at best neutral, or a Pious Templar could easily be played as he is currently doing so - some sort of conversion to a lawful neutral, or chaotic neutral god would fit in with a switch to Pious Templar and his current actions. All that being said, I don't think his problem is his character, it's something else, and it will require a lot of patience on your part if you are willing to give him that. I would suggest not to give him any special attention, either good or bad - if he wants to go drinking in the pub, and he picks fights while there, he'll soon end up being banned from most reputable places, and will gain a reputation that will lead NPCs to avoid him if at all possible - you can run the other players while he's there, and unless he deliberately starts fights he's going to have a boring time. If he starts picking fights deliberatly then the local laws will start to apply, and/or other NPCs might take note of him and deal with him approprately. Give him every break you can, but eventually he will end up dead or in jail. If he wanted to roleplay the relationship aspect, and you are comfortable doing that too, then you could introduce another female character with the intent of redeeming him - not sure how wise that would be though. Personally I commend your patience so far, and I hope it works out for all of you - don't let him spoil the enjoyment that you and your players are getting out of the game though - if he's too disruptive ask him to stay away for a short while. Core
Stormbright 11-19-04, 12:03 PM	All the suggestions above make sense. I'll just chime in on my own. The guy could be lonely, and he enjoys the friendship and companionship your game provides. Problem is, he doesn't sound like he enjoys the game itself. He's got conflicted interests, he wants friends to do stuff with, but he doesn't enjoy what they're doing. Do you guys hang out otherwise, do other things together? If so, include him in those, and kindly excuse him from the game. If not, perhaps you should? Keep the friendship, but certainly let him bow out gracefully from the game.
simpkin 11-19-04, 12:05 PM	Here is my guess, from what you've said. And realize it might not be true... I think he has or had a crush on you, but thought too much of you and/or your boyfriend to say/do anything about it. He enjoyed the attention you lavished on him at your games. And he really got into the idea of roleplaying some fantasy romance with an NPC you cooked up (i.e. with YOU). Perhaps he thought you might have been interested in him at that time, also, and were using this NPC to act it out in game. When it became obvious that you didn't want to continue roleplaying this love affair between your NPC and his character, he became frustrated. If I am right at all, he probably has all kind of conflicting feelings about all of this, and may not understand them all himself. Good luck resolving this without losing a friendship. It could be that I'm wrong, but it certainly seems to explain it all very well, at least from my point of view. While its hard for any of on this bored to make a guess on someone's real life issues, PhaedrusXY's guess sound entirely plausible in my mind. It explains everything, and seems like something I can see easily happening to many people I know in a similiar situation. Definately consider it as a possibility.
Demon Lightfoot 11-19-04, 12:40 PM	[snip]Some time ago (in the spring of 2003), his paladin met a particular evil character who has a love ability; those who touch her must make a will save or fall in love with her (and she's a monk, tee hee). His paladin fell in love with her and the player ran with it, and back then he was still okay. Eventually his character overcame the effect and was told all about how evil she was. But when he happened back into her neck of the woods again he went straight to her, disregarding his good NPC followers and his PC friends. They were not pleased. He left with his friends so that he could establish his followers in his own city...and then leave them at home so he could pursue the evil monk. The player made up his mind that the character was going to fall in all ways possible for her, but he neglected to tell anyone else about it. He just thought he would sneak off and do it. And from what I've been able to tell, he thought that would be the equivalent of walking off into the glorious sunset. The trouble was, the PCs caught wind of it. They used a spell to make him forget he ever had sexual relations with said monk. Since the paldin's relationship with her was majorly sensual, he didn't have the push to leave. He remained. And things have gone downhill ever since. His roleplaying steadily lessened and now he is never in character for long. The player has convinced himself that he hates the character, hates playing a paladin, because he has not been able to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. He has complained about restrictions when I have not been nearly as strict as the book calls for. His character also started to try to bully people around a bit. His paladin tried to start a fight with an NPC for bumping into him and not saying excuse me; when she accepted his challenge he beat her easily because she was only first level and he's quite a few higher. [snip] I think that it's possible that he's extremely unhappy that his paladin was monkeyed with by the other PCs; he'd decided he was going to play him one way (sneaking off after Hawt Evil Girl when it suited him, for example) and the other players used magic on him to change his character. Now, granted, Hawt Evil Girl had used magic in him, but the player had gone along with it, enjoyed it and maybe even anticipated it lasting for however long the campaign ran. Perhaps, as you've suggested, he was planning on this being his PC's "ride into the sunset"...and then he was forced back in. Perhaps he wanted a role-played resolution to the situation rather than basically having a magical "Off" switch flicked by the other players. If that's the case, it probably ruined the experience for him, and he's now, consciously or otherwise, trying to ruin the game for the other players in revenge. I dunno if I blame him, if that's the case.
Tealgorthian 11-19-04, 12:56 PM	Here is my guess, from what you've said. And realize it might not be true... I think he has or had a crush on you, but thought too much of you and/or your boyfriend to say/do anything about it. He enjoyed the attention you lavished on him at your games. And he really got into the idea of roleplaying some fantasy romance with an NPC you cooked up (i.e. with YOU). Perhaps he thought you might have been interested in him at that time, also, and were using this NPC to act it out in game. When it became obvious that you didn't want to continue roleplaying this love affair between your NPC and his character, he became frustrated. If I am right at all, he probably has all kind of conflicting feelings about all of this, and may not understand them all himself. Good luck resolving this without losing a friendship. It could be that I'm wrong, but it certainly seems to explain it all very well, at least from my point of view. I mostly agree with this. However, it doesnt have to be you. It could be anyone that has/has had a crush on recently, or in the past. If he is single he is probably lonely, and the attention felt nice to him. Then it was suddenly stripped away from him. This mean he had his choice taken away from him. If he was ever abused this could lead to the same sorts of feelings. Or it could be just a simple "geez, I cant even have my character do what -I- want him too.. what's the point in playing?" I know if I had been in a group, and the other players -forced- my character into something with magical coercion, I'd be royally P.O'ed. Maybe you should allow the Paladin to meet up with the Evil Monk girl again. Remember that Sune is the goddess of love, and it is very possible she would have blessed the union. Have the two meet up again, and when they try and force them apart, let the Paladin go on his way. It might make things a little better for him. But if PhaedrusXY is right, and he is looking at it from the perspective of the Paladin is him, and the NPC Monk is you, and you are the target of his feelings, then that will just lead to a false sense of hope. So you've got a real pickle there. What is boils down to is this: You are going to have to get him to open up about it. Cry. Beg, plead. Whatever it takes. It sounds like his game life is spilling into his real life. Something is happening where he equates what happened to the paladin to what happened to him. Boy. This is rambly. I hope it makes sense :|
Jeefit the meephit 11-19-04, 12:58 PM	I think he was ready to retire the paladin. In fact I'll bet he really iked the idea of him "going off into the sunset" with a beutiful monk, and then he could move on. However it seems that player action took awayn his choice at one point. I would be pretty p***ed off too if someone interfered with my desire to leave by altering my memories. So what I would do is allow him to regain his memories. One way or another; let him notice a blackout period and sidequest his memories back; if he still wants to leave let him. If he still wants to be in the thick of it suggest a brabarian or a fighter as a replacement. Both have much less code to work with. If he's being thuggish it might be because that is what he want to roleplay now and not letting him try a new role forces him to project it on the only character he has. The one the party wont allow to leave. I think that is the crux of the issue here. The players chose to remove his choice from the game. I would never allow them to do something like that. Maybe they could reason with with him; hey that chick is evil, or dispel a chram but outright erasure of memries is way overboard. That is DEFINTELY not a good act in the Black and White DnD moral compass. Even with the best intentions a forceful erasure of memories would have me as the Dm shifting some player alignments. Think about their motovations too. As a player their saying we dont think you know what's best for you; and we like to have you around so you dont have the option of leaving. And if you dont like it we'll give you a lobotomy so you still want to stay. It's not fair. Plus how did they alter that much memory? That would take alot of power mainfestations or spells as each one is only a few minutes; that means he would have been tied down and subjected to a mental torture, or the players had DM help in erasing the players memory. I think the biggest breakdown here is one of trust. He trusted that the group would allow him to make his own decisions, to play the game his way, and what happened? When he found an ending he liked for that character's story he got slapped with a "oh no you dont; we know what's best for you" treatment. They took away his choice. I think that the only reason he is even still in that group is because you are freinds and he enjoys the game. It's just that he feels limited because of that "We'll go erase your memories" bit.
Thoronmir 11-19-04, 02:01 PM	There are too many possible explanations for his behavior to list. It could be any of the causes already mentioned, a combination of them, or something entirely different. If I understand the OP correctly, the player’s issues go well beyond his Paladin. He’s tried other characters, but behaves the same way with each. His choice of the Barbarian despite knowing the adventure’s setting (and I’m sure some not-so-subtle nudging by the DM) indicate that he has intentionally become a disruptive force in the game. He won’t discuss what’s going on that might explain his demeanor. It could be as simple as “Roleplayer’s Malaise” … that sense of ennui that most of us acquire at some point when it feels like we’re just doing the same thing over and over. It could be much more serious … as in some RL issue that is affecting his behavior in all aspects of his life. Unfortunately, there’s not much you can do if he won’t open up. Treat the friend, not the player. Your OP sets out what you’ve observed … show it to him. If his issues are with the game, ask his opinion how to correct what he thinks is wrong. Don’t be afraid to let him know that he’s become a disruption to the game and that, while you are still his friend, as a DM, you have an obligation to the other players. Suggest he take a break from D&D (don’t ask if he wants to). Try to elicit his promise to find someone to talk to if he won’t confide in you. Ensure him that he can return when he’s truly ready to play again. It sounds like you really miss the player he used to be. Telling him so might open some doors.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-19-04, 02:16 PM	I'm afraid I may need a little more back ground infromation to give the best advice on this one. 1): First we'll take a look at what PheadruzYX said. Yes it definately has merrit, and you being female (I assume you are) would only compound this. As the DM you have a position of power over your PC's. Now if one of them is attracted to you they may do things just to plaese you. Simmilair to a prepubencent male becoming sexually attracted to a teacher or supervisour, and going out of their way to please the object of their disire. If your problem player is to shy to say or act on those feelings in RL then he may act them out in game on female charractors that you play. When did you arquire your boyfreind? Was it before or after you started playing D&D with our pladin freind? Does your boyfreind play in the group? How much attention does he get? Is the problem player aggressive towards your boyfreinds PC? I ask this becuase if he was attracted to you when you were single, he may have felt that he had a chance with you, but was too shy to do anything about it. When your evil chick started a rationship with his charactor, it may have been interpreted as a sign that you, too, were interested in presueing a romantic relationship, with him. However if your current boyfreind were to show up on the seen, anytime after that, the problem player would be hurt and crushed. The same kinda hurt and crushed you would feel if your current boyfreind were to show up and dump you, in the company of his new girlfriend. Now if this is the case then your going to have to give the relationship time to heal and evolve into something new. Be prepared to part company though becuase it may never heal or it may evolve into something really messy. He may feel resentment towards you and your new boyfreind. Many poeple have sujested that if this is the case for you to bring back the evil chick, and let him have his relationship with her. This is extreemly unhealthy for both of you. As you would be essentailly telling that you are romantically interested in him. (I'm assuming your not becuase you have a boyfreind) If you care at all about him, you'll decide what kind of relationship you want with him, and then explain it to him carefully and plainly. There can be no room for misinterpretation here, and he must understand were you stand on this. And be very careful not to send mixed signals. I.E any more female NPCs that are attracted sexually to, or have any kind of sexual relationship with his PCs. 2): He may have just grown board with your campiagn or D&D itself. I don't think this is ithe case, if it is its time for a new campaign, or him to find a new hobby. 3): His gaming style simply may have changed. This may be what he concitters fun. In that case it is time for you two find something else to do. I recomend Halo 2 personally. 4): He may feel he has no controll over his charactor. One of the things that players have to know at all times is that thier charactors are thiers. They have to be able to decide what their charactor does at all times. It is this controll that gives players thier attachment to their charactors, when your party ereased the paladins memory they removed that controll he has over his PC. If this is the case then the best solution would be to have an NPC drop some kind DMs dispell magic on him, thus he gets his memories back and is free to go off into the sunset the way he chooses. The group, including you, should also apologize to him for removing his ability to choose how his PC retires. However exrcise extreem caution with this, if he is actually attarcted to you, and you allow him to go after the evil chick he may interpret this as a sign that there is still hope between him and you. If there isn't a snowballs chance in the elemental plan of fire of him actually becoming romantically involved with you, then allowing him to go after evil chick and succeeding would send the wrong message, and it would lead to an unhealthy relationship. Witch would inevably explode in your face, in a nuclear way. Personally I think he porbally was and maybe still is romantically attracted to you. I also think he is some-what young 13ish to 20ish, and maybe a little confused about how this hole being attracted to girls thing is sapposed to work while he has an ocwardness/shyness thing towards girls going on. And you probally made him feel comfortable ( though role-playing in D&D) witch would naturally feed his attraction to you. I'm also guessing that you would be considered attractive (cha 14ish?) to most poeple, witch always helps with actraction of the opposite sex. He may also have a mild depression either resulting from or compounding this, either way you have one heck of a problem on your hands. Whatever you do, be sencitive of his feelings, and make sure that he understands you. And yaa there may be nothing you can do about it, sometimes poeple just fall hopelessly in lust/love with someone for a period of time. It can last minutes to years, and nothing can be done about it except a good healthy amount of distantence. Good luck with it. Cheers
+1 GM of Waffling 11-19-04, 06:24 PM	Shakabuku. A swift, spiritual kick to the head that alters your reality forever. It seems as though he enjoyed having his character fall in love. Let him do it again. And in so doing, deal with this in the context of the game. Sune appears to him, very saddened that he has lost his passion, his devotion, his love. She offers him the chance to seperate -- to end their relationship. She also offers him the chance to renew their vows and the closeness that they once shared. Faith can be fear or faith can be love. With Sune, faith is always love. A paladin of Sune should be in love with the red-haired goddess. If he wants to break off the relationship, then he loses all of his Paladin abilities, forever. (Well, until he Atones. :)) If he wants to be an active participant in the relationship again, then Sune tells him that he must rekindle his love for all that is beautiful and good. She will not always be able to speak with him directly, but for as long as he holds her in his heart, she will be there. As the game progresses, tell the player that he's feeling warm and fulfilled whenever you think he's forwarding the precepts of his religion. When he strays, tell him the world seems darker; he's feeling colder. If you want to, have Sune give him a charm -- a scarf or pendant -- that acts as a Phylactery of Faith. Whenever he has doubts, he has only to contemplate his goddess, and then he will know whether a course is correct or not. Give him something to feel passionate about. A Paladin needs something to drive them forward. D.
Fixxxer 11-19-04, 07:47 PM	I think he has or had a crush on you, but thought too much of you and/or your boyfriend to say/do anything about it. He enjoyed the attention you lavished on him at your games. And he really got into the idea of roleplaying some fantasy romance with an NPC you cooked up (i.e. with YOU). Perhaps he thought you might have been interested in him at that time, also, and were using this NPC to act it out in game. When it became obvious that you didn't want to continue roleplaying this love affair between your NPC and his character, he became frustrated. When K first brought her problem to the forum, this was one of my first thoughts as well. After reading this thread, I have a different idea, though. While XY's suggestion is still very plausible, I think it's a little more likely, given that he's very non-confrontational, that he wants out of the game, but doesn't want to initiate it himself. He wants someone to remove him from the game so that he can be the victim and gets to look around at everyone and say "See how hurt I am and how bad I've got it that my own friends would kick me out of their little club?". I can't figure on what might be the cause of this, since I don't actually know the person, but if I had to venture a guess at what the average person's motivations behind something like this would be, it would be "cry for attention." Of course, this is just one man's (relatively uninformed) opinion.
ermedic 11-19-04, 08:22 PM	I have a couple of thoughts. First, however, is this the same player that caused the problems stated in your pregnancy thread? If so, the problem may have been resolved (or at least postponed). There's no need to beat a dead cliché so I won't comment if the problem has been addressed. :D
KismetRose 11-19-04, 09:38 PM	After venting last night on this thread and reading all of your responses on this and my other thread (yes, the same problem player is described in both threads), I decided to ask him to take a break from the game. I called him today while on my lunch break and had a very friendly but frank conversation with him. He insisted that he wants to come back to the game and it sounded genuine. I made it very clear that this is a game matter and that friend matters are separate. He can come over and hang out. We can all go out somewhere. But he should wait to come back to the game until he feels he wants to game. Until he misses it. He took it all very well and seemed to feel better. It seemed like I did what he did not have the cajones to do. But either way, I feel better. Thank you all for contributing to the thread.
ermedic 11-19-04, 10:01 PM	Once again, I'm glad everything worked out. :clap: :tiphat:
ZenZ 11-20-04, 12:52 AM	any chance that Evil Monk girl can return and have switched alignment? Maybe now she's LG and need help to atone for her evil ways? Perhaps the Paladin could help her and untake a quest to reform. Of course the rest of the part is needed too. Part of an ancient riddle or some other cryptic tale. Of course you can always give him the link to this thread and show him how many people are trying to help the situatiuon.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-20-04, 01:20 PM	any chance that Evil Monk girl can return and have switched alignment? Maybe now she's LG and need help to atone for her evil ways? Perhaps the Paladin could help her and untake a quest to reform. Of course the rest of the part is needed too. Part of an ancient riddle or some other cryptic tale. Of course you can always give him the link to this thread and show him how many people are trying to help the situatiuon. Some one didn't read the hole thread ;)
Steelwill 11-20-04, 02:07 PM	KismetRose, Sounds to me like you have done everything in your power to be diplomatic and work out issues with this problem player, and he is giving you nothing to go on. After the efforts you have made per your post, I would say your only remaining recourse would be to confront him directly, tell him you have tried and tried to help him, but the bottom line is that he has become disruptive to the group and robs enjoyment from the game, and also appears to not be enjoying the game himself anymore. Tell him you would like him to step out of the group, for the good of the group, and that your sorry it comes to this but clearly there is a problem and since he ain't talkin', you are taking the bull by the horns and handling the situation. At worst, he will leave, at best it will spur him to finaly talk about what's on his mind, and maybe give one last chance to salvage things. In my opinion it sounds like he is suffering a little burnout for D&D, and needs to break, because he isn't into it anymore. This is no reflection on you as a DM, he just isn't deriving as much joy from gaming as he used to. This happens to everyone at some point, and that's when its time to take a break, or switch games, or something to changeup the situation. Regardless, at this point its his problem, and since he isn't sharing, you gotta do what's good for you and the remaining players in group. My 2 cents, I hope it helps.
Shard of Suzail 11-20-04, 06:16 PM	Demon lightfoot and Jeefit have a good take on the situation, i feel. I`ve seen this sort of thing happen before. It's a rare thing, but the result can be very serious. There are some characters that really feel right. We, as players, grow very close to them and often, when that level of equilibium is reached, you will see players write stories about those characters or draw art that features them. This Paladin sounds like a character that has really been close to the player and i would go as far as to say that it may be one of the most important characters in his roleplaying career. Things that affect those sorts of characters are close enough to we players that our real emotions can be affected. Their decisions and our decisions become one. As has been noted by the posters i mentioned, a particular event and npc affected the player quite deeply. He decided that the time had come for him to part company with his character through retirement and that this event would be a safe point for him to take off the mask of his character and move onto another. It was the right time for him to move on and he knew this. t is a lot like losing a loved one, there is a right way to go through their last days and how that is done affects the ability to move on in the future. The real horror of this situation and i am serious when i use the word horror, is the fact that the other players stepped in at that moment and took control of the character from the player, in the matter of this choice. When a player has made the decision to split from a character at this point, going against that is disastrous and is mentally damaging to the player. In terms of losing a loved one, it is like that loved on being placed on life support and never being allowed to die...all because some doctors said it was for the best. Thus there is no proper moment of separation and the player is unable to move on. It is no surprise that the player lacks enthusiasm for the character and that his attempts to play others have not shown the energy and life that he once had. He achieved a state of roleplaying grace and was torn from that. It will be a long time before he is able to return to that. In my experience it will be a long time before this player is able to play properly again. It is not his fault, by any means and he should be treated with the respect and kindness that is shown to someone who has suffered a great loss. There will be no in game method of fixing this issue and it is, in roleplay terms, the equivalent of trying to fix a broken heart. Irony indeed considering that he was playing a paladin of Sune. As to the matter of losing this person as a friend, well, it is a possibility. Such a thing will cause real grief and will not be something that can be kept seperate from real life. Roleplaying is an emotional art and it is possible to suffer damage as well as to gain great rewards from that art. I feel sincere sadness for this player and feel his grief personally. There are many who will read this thread who know of this terrible pain themselves. This man's friend was taken from him and i mourn for that loss.
KismetRose 11-21-04, 02:44 AM	As has been noted by the posters i mentioned, a particular event and npc affected the player quite deeply. He decided that the time had come for him to part company with his character through retirement and that this event would be a safe point for him to take off the mask of his character and move onto another. Retrospect is a wonderful and terrible thing. You see, the crux of this situation is that the player does not communicate things often. Sure, he decided to retire his character in that fashion - but he didn't tell anyone that was his intention. None of us had any idea where he was coming from, what he was doing or why he was doing it. He took no steps to enlighten us. It was the right time for him to move on and he knew this. t is a lot like losing a loved one, there is a right way to go through their last days and how that is done affects the ability to move on in the future. I have lost two loved ones in this year alone and I cannot say that gaming can get anywhere CLOSE to such a thing. This is truly like comparing apples and oranges. The real horror of this situation and i am serious when i use the word horror, is the fact that the other players stepped in at that moment and took control of the character from the player, in the matter of this choice. The other players were acting completely in character. They saw that their friend was standing on a precipice, about to jump off. They all cared about his character a great deal and they all cared about his paladinhood - at that time, more than he did. They acted to prevent what they felt would be a fatal mistake. They knew the evil monk, having been attacked by her in various ways before, and they knew her lifestyle. They knew that in all likelihood he would flee to her and die. They also acted in self-defense. His paladin knew a lot of government secrets; they could not afford for him to fall into evil hands. Since they loved him, they didn't want to kill him (other groups might have felt killing him would be best, or the only way to ensure that he not fall). Instead, they opted for a spell that did not erase all of his knowledge, but a select part of it. He would remember how to defend himself and all that, but he would not remember the trysts he'd had with women. Even though the paladin was very sexually active, sexual memories were not the majority of the memories he held, not by far. It is rather like slicing off a little mold so you can eat the rest of the cheese. They did not know of his intentions to retire the character. When the spell was done, he even acted amused at first and he ran with it a bit. It looked like they might have done the best thing. They went with what information they had. When a player has made the decision to split from a character at this point, going against that is disastrous and is mentally damaging to the player. In terms of losing a loved one, it is like that loved on being placed on life support and never being allowed to die...all because some doctors said it was for the best. Mentally damaging? This is far too dramatic a response for the situation. I do agree that it can be upsetting to a player and may even cause resentment, but few people would have mental damage over it (and those who would probably shouldn't be gaming). In any case, it would have been nice if he had expressed his concern in some way so that we could have found another way to retire the character. Instead, this has dragged on to this point. In my experience it will be a long time before this player is able to play properly again. It is not his fault, by any means and he should be treated with the respect and kindness that is shown to someone who has suffered a great loss. There will be no in game method of fixing this issue and it is, in roleplay terms, the equivalent of trying to fix a broken heart. Irony indeed considering that he was playing a paladin of Sune. I treat my players with respect and kindness but he has not suffered a great loss. I'm sorry. This is a game, and I know too well what it means to suffer a great loss. I will not trivialize such a thing. He suffered a thwarting of his will. He could have done something about it. I offered him so many opportunities to express himself, to work with me, but he did not respond. If anything I respect my other players the more for having put up with all of his mess for so long, and taking it so well. They have become very productive players in our time together, even while he has stopped being productive. As to the matter of losing this person as a friend, well, it is a possibility. Such a thing will cause real grief and will not be something that can be kept seperate from real life. Roleplaying is an emotional art and it is possible to suffer damage as well as to gain great rewards from that art. In-game occurrences can and should be held separate from real life. When people forget to leave room between real life and the game, there is always trouble. Our group has generally been very good about keeping the division between gaming and the real world. There may be times when you can't help being upset for a while over something that happens in the game, but there must be a place to draw the line or things become destructive. While this player has been destructive in the game he has not been destructive outside of it - we are still friends and want to continue being friends. The game is great but friendships do mean more, at least to me.
KismetRose 11-21-04, 03:03 AM	I think that is the crux of the issue here. The players chose to remove his choice from the game. I would never allow them to do something like that. Maybe they could reason with with him; hey that chick is evil, or dispel a chram but outright erasure of memries is way overboard. That is DEFINTELY not a good act in the Black and White DnD moral compass. Even with the best intentions a forceful erasure of memories would have me as the Dm shifting some player alignments. I as a DM allow my characters to disagree with each other. I also allow them to attack one another and use spells on one another. If NPCs can do it, so can PCs and vice versa. It may not always be pleasant, but I feel that characters should be allowed to disagree in thought, word, and action. I know that other DMs disallow fights between PCs, and some do not allow characters to use anything but obviously helpful spells on one another. I am not that way. While I don't want the party fighting all the time, disagreements happen even between the best of friends. Please see my explanation of the situation in my response to Shard of Suzail. The PCs were acting in character in trying to save the paladin. They had tried other methods and nothing had worked, so they resorted to a spell that they felt would be their best shot. They felt that losing a few memories - and only a scant few, if you think about it - was better than the paladin falling and probably dying. I do not use a black and white moral compass, however. My gaming has lots and lots of grey, and my group has enjoyed that a great deal. They all explained to me their reasons for having the spell cast and their reasons fell within their alignments just fine.
Palin the Wizard 11-21-04, 03:12 AM	Parting with the game is the best way for him to get back his enthusiasm for gaming. I think you made a good decision, KismetRose. It sounds as if he's suffering player burnout.