A real villain [Archive] - Wizards Community

A real villain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ArchmageOmega
04-28-04, 08:59 PM With all the talk about building a city and building an adventure, I was thinking about building a villain. Not like a BBEG, but a real villain with a back story, goals, reasons, plans, friends, lackeys, everything.

To begin with, I was thinking any major game villain should not start as someone too powerful. So how about level 4? Lawful evil is somewhat obvious, but maybe neutral evil? I really have no ideas for a name.

Also, what order should stuff be decided? I really think the character sheet should come last, but what about you?

[Edit: Oh yeah, as for a back story, I think it should be something that the players will be simpathetic with. Say, his (her?) family was killed by some king/leader type for what he considers unjust reasons, and he has sworn to depose, defame, etc. that ruler, or at least destroy their kingdom.]
screwtape
04-28-04, 10:26 PM Make him chaotic good, but rude or intimidating.

Let him have the best interests at heart but with a different approach than the PCs. Let them butt heads. Maybe they get frustrated with eachother and have a scuffle. Maybe he publicly demonizes them or makes them look like villains.

Think John Lithgow in Footloose.
Sid_Patterson
04-28-04, 10:36 PM Too true. One doesn't have to be evil to be a real jerk and incredibly unlikable. He just has an intolerant approach to his beliefs. Heck, he could be a lawful good paladin that can't see past the laws written in his book.

For a sympathetic back story, you might use a tragically ending true love scenario. Think Princess Bride, or even Braveheart.
krichaiushii
04-28-04, 11:53 PM Who said "villains are never villains in their own eyes"?

Anyhow, books I have found useful in my villain-building include the 2d edition Complete Book of Villains, Madmen of History (by Hook), and the Bedside Book of Bas..... (by Johnson). The last two highlight real villains of history.

If your campaign world has the played-in history of some, you can build villains from events participated in by earlier groups of PCs, or even former PCs turned villainous NPC by choice or happenstance (domination, vampirism, and lycanthropy for example).

The best villains are spawned by (in)action of the PCs. Ideally, the PCs know its their fault that the villain exists, so you have a nice backstory there. Even better if the new villain was once an ally, or at least neutral-friendly towards the party.

Ideally, they grow in power as the PCs grow in power, until the inevitable showdown.

For your villain, pick a few redeeming traits that seem incompatible with his less redeeming traits. Say he rescues children from all sorts of grief (perhaps sponsoring orphanages and schools or more direct intervention), while at the same time torturing to death adults that have wronged him (either true wrongs or imagined). A good trait coupled with an evil trait. Determining why he displays such traits leads to an interesting background possibility.
ArchmageOmega
04-29-04, 01:23 AM All good suggestions, but I was really thinking more about creating a BBEG to be used somewhat modularly. (Has anyone ever used a CG character as a BBEG? Sounds interesting.)

I guess I'm thinking along the lines of LOTR with Sauron and Saruman. Although, Sauron is obviously way too powerful.

So how about first we vote on alignment? I'll cast my vote for LE.
krichaiushii
04-29-04, 10:53 AM LE is good.

It lends itself both to draconian tyrants and faceless beauracracies that dither on "good form" until its too late. It also lends itself to a personal code of honor for the villain - no matter how warped it may be - as well as possible temporary alliances or at least cease-fires between him and the PCs.

I can also see intelligent LE as being both very detailed in the plans and contingency plans, as well as being a leader of his own organization, if not country.

Basically, I like LE villains.
Alkaline
04-29-04, 11:58 AM What would Magneto's (from X-men) alignment be?

He's a villain to the X-men in the sense that he has agendas and goals that are completely opposite from the X-men (he wants to destroy humankind and let the supreme mutants rule the world, and they want to share the world in peace), but he is also "one of them" in a sense... They also work together sometimes to combat "shared enemies".

I think a dynamic villain like this would be amazing.

Alkaline
newbDM
04-29-04, 12:06 PM Magneto I'd say would be Lawful Evil.
Glak
04-29-04, 01:24 PM as the Complete Book of Villians (an excellent book, just read it two days ago) says: don't make a villian sympathetic. You want your players to be passionate about hunting down and killing this guy. There can be events in the villian's life that turned him into a villian, but those events don't excuse his life of villianary. For example the PCs are asked to visit a noble. On the way there they kill a werewolf. The noble is horrified; he wanted them to cure his wife. So then he amasses an army of undead to conquer some place. He doesn't take his vengenace immediately. If he went after the PCs immediately then they would be somewhat understanding. That isn't what Villains are about.
Kenohki
04-29-04, 02:05 PM Here is an idea: weave him into the story. At 1st level the PCs meet a young pair of brothers who beg to sign on with them and learn how to be adventurers. At some point the party screws them, by abandoning them or seomthing.

One brother dies and the other brother blames the party but moves on. He meets the party again at some later date, and they accidentally destroy his life i.e. they get into a battle of a ship and sink the boat containing all his wealth leaving him a pauper. This happens a couple times. He eventually starts trying to ruin the party by doing small things like spreading rumors about them. Later he begins to tell monsters where to ambush them. He eventually begins to oppose them himself.
krichaiushii
04-29-04, 02:25 PM As an interesting tie-in to Kenohki's post - why not have the PCs be blamed for what they don't do?

For example, say there is a pitched battle wherein one or more PCs die defending some commoners. Some of the commoners also die.

The PC cleric promptly (and publically) raises/resurrects his companions, but refuses to raise/resurrect the fallen townsfolk - perhaps the family and friends of the future villain.

So not only have the PCs embittered this villain against them, but also against the religion of the cleric that did the raising/resurrecting.

Since that day, the villain has been either openly attacking members of said religion physically, or goes after them in speeches and such, perhaps proselytizing for another diety.

Conversely, this could have happened behind-the-scenes, using all NPCs to build the backstory.
ArchmageOmega
04-29-04, 02:50 PM I'm glad to see there is some interest in this thread. All good ideas so far.

I'll leave the vote on alignment open for a while yet, as there haven't been many votes. Also, let's continue to discuss his (her?) back story. I'll try and add an idea of my own to the pot later today. (I'll have more time then.)

Glak: Maybe understand would be a better word than sympathize. I just don't want to see a villain that is evil simply for the sake of being evil.

I really liked Rubicant (sp?) from FF2 (FF4 outside US). I suppose, looking back, he wasn't very logical, but he was really cool. He'd always heal the party to full before each fight with him so it'd be fair.
DrakeRunner
04-29-04, 08:51 PM Ken-Ohki? Is that you? Hot damn, didn't expect to see you here.

What would be neat is including them as a part of the story just because of the PC's growing power. Say a warrior who wants to gain fame and honor by defeating the PCs. Mix things up by having him save the PCs on a few occasions "I will kill you, not these monsters!" Or maybe a whole group. Anti-PCs! With goatees! Even the women! :D
ArchmageOmega
05-01-04, 02:46 PM No one seems too interested in this topic, but just in case... :bump:
Blacksword
05-01-04, 07:50 PM Depends on the campaign and PCs

i quite like the insane bad guys (Kefka from FF VI)

if i get a group with only humans and dwarves... i have an uber naturalist druid whom i pull out and let loose on the PCs
Loftower
05-01-04, 11:37 PM If you want to think about a Good aligned opponent (to a Good group), why not a rival? They scoop each other’s quests from time to time. “Hah! I got to the Book of Great Boredom first! Noxium the Sleep Deprived will reward ME handsomely! Better luck next time, slowpokes.” This way they can meet and interact in proper social situations without the typical hair-trigger paranoia. Maybe she/he/they are friendly rivals (at least to begin with). The winners buy the losers a round of drinks at the end, “No hard feelings.” Of course, after this happens for a while the players will be looking for an excuse to fight.

The more I think about this the more I like it. The competitor forces the party to push harder and take more chances because they don’t want second place. “You set up an ambush for the goblins attacking the down? So sad! We tracked them to their lair and crushed them like the whimpering dogs they are. They did have some cool stuff though! You should go have a look, we couldn’t carry everything out ourselves. I think we left some of the copper… and the velvet Elvis tapestries.”

I’d have to be careful DMing this one, my players might turn Evil just to attack them. I know as a player I’d be furious! The PCs would have to win some, too. Then, “You did a great job on the Bugbear lair, but you missed the hidden treasure room. You should really search harder next time, I got this Ring of Mild Annoyance from there and it’s really cool.” I bet if the PCs won two thirds of the time they’d still be fighting mad and probably bitter enough in conversation so that I could rationalize turning their rivals into their enemies when the time was right.

So the back story is heroic. The tension is dynamic based on roleplay. Necessarily the rival or party of rivals would have to be about as powerful as the party. They would have a good deal of information about each other from their interactions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArchmageOmega 04-28-04, 08:59 PM	With all the talk about building a city and building an adventure, I was thinking about building a villain. Not like a BBEG, but a real villain with a back story, goals, reasons, plans, friends, lackeys, everything. To begin with, I was thinking any major game villain should not start as someone too powerful. So how about level 4? Lawful evil is somewhat obvious, but maybe neutral evil? I really have no ideas for a name. Also, what order should stuff be decided? I really think the character sheet should come last, but what about you? [Edit: Oh yeah, as for a back story, I think it should be something that the players will be simpathetic with. Say, his (her?) family was killed by some king/leader type for what he considers unjust reasons, and he has sworn to depose, defame, etc. that ruler, or at least destroy their kingdom.]
screwtape 04-28-04, 10:26 PM	Make him chaotic good, but rude or intimidating. Let him have the best interests at heart but with a different approach than the PCs. Let them butt heads. Maybe they get frustrated with eachother and have a scuffle. Maybe he publicly demonizes them or makes them look like villains. Think John Lithgow in Footloose.
Sid_Patterson 04-28-04, 10:36 PM	Too true. One doesn't have to be evil to be a real jerk and incredibly unlikable. He just has an intolerant approach to his beliefs. Heck, he could be a lawful good paladin that can't see past the laws written in his book. For a sympathetic back story, you might use a tragically ending true love scenario. Think Princess Bride, or even Braveheart.
krichaiushii 04-28-04, 11:53 PM	Who said "villains are never villains in their own eyes"? Anyhow, books I have found useful in my villain-building include the 2d edition Complete Book of Villains, Madmen of History (by Hook), and the Bedside Book of Bas..... (by Johnson). The last two highlight real villains of history. If your campaign world has the played-in history of some, you can build villains from events participated in by earlier groups of PCs, or even former PCs turned villainous NPC by choice or happenstance (domination, vampirism, and lycanthropy for example). The best villains are spawned by (in)action of the PCs. Ideally, the PCs know its their fault that the villain exists, so you have a nice backstory there. Even better if the new villain was once an ally, or at least neutral-friendly towards the party. Ideally, they grow in power as the PCs grow in power, until the inevitable showdown. For your villain, pick a few redeeming traits that seem incompatible with his less redeeming traits. Say he rescues children from all sorts of grief (perhaps sponsoring orphanages and schools or more direct intervention), while at the same time torturing to death adults that have wronged him (either true wrongs or imagined). A good trait coupled with an evil trait. Determining why he displays such traits leads to an interesting background possibility.
ArchmageOmega 04-29-04, 01:23 AM	All good suggestions, but I was really thinking more about creating a BBEG to be used somewhat modularly. (Has anyone ever used a CG character as a BBEG? Sounds interesting.) I guess I'm thinking along the lines of LOTR with Sauron and Saruman. Although, Sauron is obviously way too powerful. So how about first we vote on alignment? I'll cast my vote for LE.
krichaiushii 04-29-04, 10:53 AM	LE is good. It lends itself both to draconian tyrants and faceless beauracracies that dither on "good form" until its too late. It also lends itself to a personal code of honor for the villain - no matter how warped it may be - as well as possible temporary alliances or at least cease-fires between him and the PCs. I can also see intelligent LE as being both very detailed in the plans and contingency plans, as well as being a leader of his own organization, if not country. Basically, I like LE villains.
Alkaline 04-29-04, 11:58 AM	What would Magneto's (from X-men) alignment be? He's a villain to the X-men in the sense that he has agendas and goals that are completely opposite from the X-men (he wants to destroy humankind and let the supreme mutants rule the world, and they want to share the world in peace), but he is also "one of them" in a sense... They also work together sometimes to combat "shared enemies". I think a dynamic villain like this would be amazing. Alkaline
newbDM 04-29-04, 12:06 PM	Magneto I'd say would be Lawful Evil.
Glak 04-29-04, 01:24 PM	as the Complete Book of Villians (an excellent book, just read it two days ago) says: don't make a villian sympathetic. You want your players to be passionate about hunting down and killing this guy. There can be events in the villian's life that turned him into a villian, but those events don't excuse his life of villianary. For example the PCs are asked to visit a noble. On the way there they kill a werewolf. The noble is horrified; he wanted them to cure his wife. So then he amasses an army of undead to conquer some place. He doesn't take his vengenace immediately. If he went after the PCs immediately then they would be somewhat understanding. That isn't what Villains are about.
Kenohki 04-29-04, 02:05 PM	Here is an idea: weave him into the story. At 1st level the PCs meet a young pair of brothers who beg to sign on with them and learn how to be adventurers. At some point the party screws them, by abandoning them or seomthing. One brother dies and the other brother blames the party but moves on. He meets the party again at some later date, and they accidentally destroy his life i.e. they get into a battle of a ship and sink the boat containing all his wealth leaving him a pauper. This happens a couple times. He eventually starts trying to ruin the party by doing small things like spreading rumors about them. Later he begins to tell monsters where to ambush them. He eventually begins to oppose them himself.
krichaiushii 04-29-04, 02:25 PM	As an interesting tie-in to Kenohki's post - why not have the PCs be blamed for what they don't do? For example, say there is a pitched battle wherein one or more PCs die defending some commoners. Some of the commoners also die. The PC cleric promptly (and publically) raises/resurrects his companions, but refuses to raise/resurrect the fallen townsfolk - perhaps the family and friends of the future villain. So not only have the PCs embittered this villain against them, but also against the religion of the cleric that did the raising/resurrecting. Since that day, the villain has been either openly attacking members of said religion physically, or goes after them in speeches and such, perhaps proselytizing for another diety. Conversely, this could have happened behind-the-scenes, using all NPCs to build the backstory.
ArchmageOmega 04-29-04, 02:50 PM	I'm glad to see there is some interest in this thread. All good ideas so far. I'll leave the vote on alignment open for a while yet, as there haven't been many votes. Also, let's continue to discuss his (her?) back story. I'll try and add an idea of my own to the pot later today. (I'll have more time then.) Glak: Maybe understand would be a better word than sympathize. I just don't want to see a villain that is evil simply for the sake of being evil. I really liked Rubicant (sp?) from FF2 (FF4 outside US). I suppose, looking back, he wasn't very logical, but he was really cool. He'd always heal the party to full before each fight with him so it'd be fair.
DrakeRunner 04-29-04, 08:51 PM	Ken-Ohki? Is that you? Hot damn, didn't expect to see you here. What would be neat is including them as a part of the story just because of the PC's growing power. Say a warrior who wants to gain fame and honor by defeating the PCs. Mix things up by having him save the PCs on a few occasions "I will kill you, not these monsters!" Or maybe a whole group. Anti-PCs! With goatees! Even the women! :D
ArchmageOmega 05-01-04, 02:46 PM	No one seems too interested in this topic, but just in case... :bump:
Blacksword 05-01-04, 07:50 PM	Depends on the campaign and PCs i quite like the insane bad guys (Kefka from FF VI) if i get a group with only humans and dwarves... i have an uber naturalist druid whom i pull out and let loose on the PCs
Loftower 05-01-04, 11:37 PM	If you want to think about a Good aligned opponent (to a Good group), why not a rival? They scoop each other’s quests from time to time. “Hah! I got to the Book of Great Boredom first! Noxium the Sleep Deprived will reward ME handsomely! Better luck next time, slowpokes.” This way they can meet and interact in proper social situations without the typical hair-trigger paranoia. Maybe she/he/they are friendly rivals (at least to begin with). The winners buy the losers a round of drinks at the end, “No hard feelings.” Of course, after this happens for a while the players will be looking for an excuse to fight. The more I think about this the more I like it. The competitor forces the party to push harder and take more chances because they don’t want second place. “You set up an ambush for the goblins attacking the down? So sad! We tracked them to their lair and crushed them like the whimpering dogs they are. They did have some cool stuff though! You should go have a look, we couldn’t carry everything out ourselves. I think we left some of the copper… and the velvet Elvis tapestries.” I’d have to be careful DMing this one, my players might turn Evil just to attack them. I know as a player I’d be furious! The PCs would have to win some, too. Then, “You did a great job on the Bugbear lair, but you missed the hidden treasure room. You should really search harder next time, I got this Ring of Mild Annoyance from there and it’s really cool.” I bet if the PCs won two thirds of the time they’d still be fighting mad and probably bitter enough in conversation so that I could rationalize turning their rivals into their enemies when the time was right. So the back story is heroic. The tension is dynamic based on roleplay. Necessarily the rival or party of rivals would have to be about as powerful as the party. They would have a good deal of information about each other from their interactions.