Post/Author/DateTime	Post
artman 03-02-04, 10:43 PM	Is it just me or are there too many posts on this board that state that it is the DM’s responsibility to do … everything. We have to make sure that all the players are having fun. We have to ensure that everyone is playing by the rules. We have to ensure that the rules are clearly understood. We have to take our players by the hand and explain to them when they are being annoying, inconsiderate, or rude and nicely talk to them so as not to scare them. We have to keep the pace quick and lively. We have to create a world and a plot, realistically many many many plots, for the PCs. The onus is on the DM to have all the materials, all the ideas, and all the patience. I have seen threads and responses wherein fellow DMs have been criticized for not bringing enough dice for everyone, for not being ready for derailed plots, and for wanting to just boot players from their game. It seems to me like the DMs of the world are player-whipped. You sit there content to merely caret to your players either because they are your friends, they outnumber you, or you “Just wanna have fun!” Too often have you worked hard on a game to have it sit unplayed. Too often have you spent uncounted hours working on NPCs to find that you players have barely remembered to bring their characters. Too often have you worried about your players having fun and too few are the times when you, my fellow DMs seem to worry about your fun. I would like to have it clearly stated that the players bear responsibility. It is not all on the DM. For those of you that post replies stating that it is the DM’s job to make sure the players are having fun I say that it is the players job to ensure that the DM is having fun. To those that say that it is the DMs job to ensure that the players have enough good plots to follow so as to keep the story moving I say that it is the players job to find their own plots. Never in my life has an adventure fallen into my lap, limped up to me at a bar, run screaming down the road or in any other way found me. I have had many interesting and exciting events in my life and I have had to seek out each and every one. The PCs should have to do no less. To those DMs that say it is the DMs’ job to make sure the players know the rules I say that reading is an important part of life and gaming and if the players are unable to read the rules and understand them then they are to be pitied and show the door until suck time as they learn for themselves. We DMs have it hard enough. We spend hours planning out entire worlds, even if you use premade settings. We have to make and run hundreds of NPCs and know their goals and dreams or at least if they have a strange nervous twitch. We must make a world for the game to take place in. This is all the basic stuff. If the players cannot ensure that they themselves are having fun then that is their fault. If the players cannot take some responsibility for the game and it’s enjoyment for all, DMs included, then that is sad. From what I can see many of you work hard on your games and that is to be commended. Keep it up and don’t take on more than you should have to. You work hard enough.
Sucineri 03-02-04, 10:54 PM	Well..it really IS upto the DM to create the adventures..whether it is something you have planned..something that was premade..or if your players have a goal in mind..you have to conform to them or you will be DMing for nobody. Look at a CRPG such as "Baldur's Gate"..after you have killed everyone in a map area..there isn't anything else to do. You are forced to either stop playing, or go along with how the game creators designed the game to go. Player's responsibility are as follows.. 1. Bring your Player's Handbook (if they have one). 2. Bring your own set of dice (unless the DM or other players have more than one set and will allow the player to use them until such time as you can obtain your own.) 3. Don't be a douchebag. Player is just in control of their own characters and what they want to do with their characters..it is upto the DM to fill in the blanks.
Escef 03-02-04, 11:03 PM	I agree artman, the DM's job is huge. Any one DM puts more work into the game than all his players combined. And the DM is a "player" in a fashion as well, and deserves to have fun. It is wrong to expect the DM to do everything for the players. I wish I could add something more meaningful than my agreement, but you've covered your bases pretty well.
Tevish Szat 03-02-04, 11:22 PM	The DM is the world, to the lowliest NPC or monster up to the gods. They have to control all that and build adventures for the PCs to deal with and go through. Why do you think modules are so popular? modules and other prewritten adventures do a lot of the really hard work for the DM. However, the players need to respect the DM and play well for anything to work. their responsibility is to be responsable
NestroEmichae 03-02-04, 11:23 PM	Artman, bravo. However, the games I usually play require huge loads of work only to go in a different direction anyway.
Remnant 03-02-04, 11:35 PM	Yeah, sometimes being a DM reminds me of working in retail- some customer trying to return a three month old grill that has been used throughout the summer is inevitably going to tell you "the customer is always right"... and then I black out... and the next thing I know, I'm holding an empty stapler, and there's a guy lying unconcious on the ground with three dozen staples lodged in his forehead... Anyway, good post. As much as I like DMing, it only takes one "your sole purpose is to entertain me!" players to make the job frustrating.
Crossover-Chronicler 03-03-04, 12:11 AM	:whatsthis: Originally posted by artman Is it just me or are there too many posts on this board that state that it is the DM’s responsibility to do … everything.Well, as Uncle Ben said, "with great power comes great responsibility." The DM holds more power than any other player in the game, and as a consequence receives the lion's share of the responsibility. The DM controls the environs and challenges surrounding the PCs, as well as the resources at their disposal. He has a negative responsibility not to abuse that power, and an additional respnsibility to facilitate enjoyment by all.We have to make sure that all the players are having fun.See aboveWe have to ensure that everyone is playing by the rules.Or you could just let them cheat; the DM is in the best position to enforce the rules, and therefore cannot evade blame if the game suffers because (s)he chooses not to do so.We have to ensure that the rules are clearly understood.Only if you want them properly enforced (see above).We have to take our players by the hand and explain to them when they are being annoying, inconsiderate, or rude and nicely talk to them so as not to scare them.We do? :omg: I never did that...We have to keep the pace quick and lively.WHo else can? Only the DM canactually move things along unless all the players are on the same page.We have to create a world and a plot, realistically many many many plots, for the PCs.Or you can fall back entirely on pre-published stuff.The onus is on the DM to have all the materials, all the ideas, and all the patience. I have seen threads and responses wherein fellow DMs have been criticized for not bringing enough dice for everyone, for not being ready for derailed plots, and for wanting to just boot players from their game.That's because eberyone has his/her own vision of DMing, and every DM thinks every other DM is doing it wrong. In the same thread, a DM might be criticized for using house-rules, for not using hourse-rules, booting players, not booting players, running dungeon-crawls, running deep hack&slash, including "mature themes" or glossing over unpleasantness. And I think it's in the nature of gamer analysis to focus on the negative.It seems to me like the DMs of the world are player-whipped.Or you play as well as DM, and you know what you want when you play...You sit there content to merely caret to your players either because they are your friends, they outnumber you, or you “Just wanna have fun!”And what's wrong with wanting to have fun? This is a game after all.Too often have you worked hard on a game to have it sit unplayed. Too often have you spent uncounted hours working on NPCs to find that you players have barely remembered to bring their characters. Too often have you worried about your players having fun and too few are the times when you, my fellow DMs seem to worry about your fun.I'm with you here, though.I would like to have it clearly stated that the players bear responsibility. It is not all on the DM.This is also true.For those of you that post replies stating that it is the DM’s job to make sure the players are having fun I say that it is the players job to ensure that the DM is having fun.Quite so.To those that say that it is the DMs job to ensure that the players have enough good plots to follow so as to keep the story moving I say that it is the players job to find their own plots. Never in my life has an adventure fallen into my lap, limped up to me at a bar, run screaming down the road or in any other way found me. I have had many interesting and exciting events in my life and I have had to seek out each and every one. The PCs should have to do no less.THis is true up to a point, but both DMs and players should be flexible. Keep in mind that adventurers often risk life and limb, something that few people willingly make a habit of.To those DMs that say it is the DMs’ job to make sure the players know the rules I say that reading is an important part of life and gaming and if the players are unable to read the rules and understand them then they are to be pitied and show the door until suck time as they learn for themselves.Or assigned a "mentor" among the more capable players to keep them in line. A DM is not a babysitter.We DMs have it hard enough. We spend hours planning out entire worlds, even if you use premade settings. We have to make and run hundreds of NPCs and know their goals and dreams or at least if they have a strange nervous twitch. We must make a world for the game to take place in. This is all the basic stuff. If the players cannot ensure that they themselves are having fun then that is their fault.YOu've obviously never played under a DM whose only goal was his own amusement, often at the expense of the players' enjoyment.If the players cannot take some responsibility for the game and it’s enjoyment for all, DMs included, then that is sad.I agree. But we take what we can get :sad:From what I can see many of you work hard on your games and that is to be commended. Keep it up and don’t take on more than you should have to. You work hard enough. I'll second that! :pile:
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-03-04, 12:26 AM	As a major proponent of DMs doing thier damn jobs, I say this: it is a big job , but we should have known that before we started. Effectively, you are: - roleplaying the planet - telling a story - involving all characters in both world and story - pacing everything - above all: making sure everyone (including yourself) is having fun Its like teaching high school. They aren't obligated to go out of thier way for you (in fact, that's metagaming) and you really have to do it because you love it, else, you won't be very good at it. If you can't handle the responsabilities and don't have a passion for it... *points to player's chair*
bitnine 03-03-04, 12:30 AM	If you really don't enjoy the work and find it a hassle rather than something enjoyable, you might want to consider taking a breather and letting someone else DM for a spell. If you aren't cut out for the role, that isn't anything against you - there's nothing necessarily worse with being a player than being a DM. A good player is also a worthwhile thing to have.
Lord Crimson 03-03-04, 12:42 AM	"And the gods of dungeon-mastering looked down upon artman's rant, and they saw that it was good. And they called upon the waters of the sea and the fires of the heavens and smote down the foolish players of the world and punished them for their transgressions. And it was good." -- Book of Dungeronomy, Chp 2, verse 3. I wholeheartedly agree Artman. I'm tired of people who respond on the board that it is my sole purpose as DM to subborn my will to the pleasure of the players. If players can't be tolerable, pleasant, fun, and willing to travel the journey with me, then I say let them eat DRAGONSBREATH!!! I deserve to enjoy the game too. I'm the one shelling out cash for the books. I'm the one spending endless hours designing dungeons and plotting monsters. I'm the one writing years worth of plots and backstory. I'm the one who has to play all the things in the game both fair and foul. I'm the one that has to compensate for the occasional bit of player ingenuity or the more common bit of player stupidity. If players can't understand that, they shouldn't be playing.
artman 03-03-04, 01:01 AM	To clear up one hting first, this is not a comment on myself or my players. Though we do not meet often enough, my players are very involved in the processes of the world and are wonderful at doing their jobs as players. This was meant to be a commentary on the status of the situation on the whole. On these boards I see too many replies that put all the responsibilities on the DM. I see these comments on the DM and Player boards. I will grant that it is the DM's job to make the world and to keep the game moving but one must also admit that the players have a role to play in this, too. The characters live in this world and the players must be willing to accept the respnsibility of having to act in it and with it. Most NPCs have very boring lives. They do not fight dragons or save kingdoms. The PCs are special. They have the opportunity to do greater things. Assumig each DM is doing their job correctly, the PCs each start with eaqual opportunities to have wonderful adventures. It is up to the players to take advantage of these oportunities. I think of this in the same way I see American society. Here, all people have the right to the pursuit of happiness. THis does not garuntee that you will find happiness. THis doesn't garuntee that it will be easy. But everyone has the chance at happiness. Each person has the power to succeed or to fail based on thier own actions. Some poeple accept that they are responsible for finding their own happiness, relying on the government only to ensure that there are equal opportunities for happiness. Others want the government to do it for them. They want ot be given happiness instead of working for it. If they are forced to work for it they get mad. As a comparison, the first group would be the responsible players. They count on the DM to give them equal chances for adventure and fun but realize that in the end it is up to them to do the right things and take responsibility for their own fun. The second group want the DM to handle everything and will blame any game that is less than the fun they are expecting and feel they are due on the DM. And if you railroad them, DEAR GOD!!!! Its the end of the world. For these irresponsible players you have to ensure that they have fun but can't force their actions. It's lose-lose because they aren't doing their parts. I personally enjoy the work involved. What I do not enjoy is being told or seeing other DMs, who work harder than any player, being told that it is their fault that the players aren't having fun. That it is the DMs job to make the game fun. I know of no toher game where it is up to one person to ensure the enjoyment of the others. D&D is a team effort. Both the DM and the players need to do their part and accept the responsibilty they bear in making the game fun.
PaladinSix 03-03-04, 01:48 AM	One of the fundamental concepts that seems to be so often forgotten by posters to these boards (especially regular players who take the time to weigh in on the "DMs Forums"): Although the rules make the distinction between players and a DM, in reality everyone at the table is playing the game. The DM is not there solely for the amusement of the "players". He is, in fact, a player himself, just one with considerably more responsiblity. Not only is the DM ALLOWED to have fun, he is SUPPOSED to have fun, just like everyone else. Having said that, allow me to quote something I read a long time ago, around 1982: Poor play does not merit special consideration. Players will not improve if the DM pampers rather than challenges them. If your players perfom badly, do not allow their characters to increase in experience level. Be most judicious in how you handle awards to player characters. Allowing foolish and ignorant players to advance their characters to high levels reflects badly upon the game and even more so upon the Dungeon Master who allowed such a travesty to occur. In effect, it is the excellence of the DM which is judged when the caliber of play by any group is discussed. Keep yours high! From the afterword to module S4: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, by Gary Gygax.
halzmar of geoff 03-03-04, 02:25 AM	The onus of responsibility for the game is ultimately on the shoulders of the DM - because the DM can make the fixes more easily to the game than the players. It's not a matter of being player whipped quite often it's about NOT being player whipped but in control of the game. As a DM you set the tempo, you set the mood, you play the NPCs, hand out treasure, and XP - the players react to you. But if they become stuck on a bit of flavor text and totally ignore your carefully planned adventure, or they ignore the NPC that you felt was the greatest thing ever created I'm sorry about the bruised ego but you still have a game session to fill. Players don't have a script they won't react how we expect in every situation - they won't play the character like we would play it - they will go left even when we put 40 hours work and $400 in books into planning the campaign based on the premise that they will go right because of some offhand detail we mentioned out just for flavor. We've all been there and yes it sucks but once one gets the hang of improvisation and dealing with the unexpected it becomes fun - I get a feeling of satisfaction from seamlessly dealing with player actions as if I'd planned it all along. I actually have had things fall in my lap at bars - quite frequently as a matter of fact - last year I picked up over $50,000 worth of contracts in the bars - But I was in the bars a lot, and I drink in the old timer bars, not the meat markets or college clubs. There's a reason why adventures used to start in the bars that's where a lot of our parent's did business after work when we were younger. As for being polite when dealing with people it's a management technique - You listen to their BS, you let them run down with their little rant, and then you tell them how it is - it's not about "scaring them" it's about being in control. If a DM is screaming and throwing a temper tantrum they aren't in control, and they don't have the player's respect when they can't control themselves, do they? As DM you have to maintain an aura of control and respect. I firmly believe that the DM has control of the game - you control the vertical you control the horizontal - if things are off in the game the DM has the power to fix it.
Lord Crimson 03-03-04, 03:08 AM	Though I agree halzmar that DMs usually have the power to fix things in-game, this rant is not so much about all of that. It's about the players who throw tantrums themselves out of game when they don't get to abuse the rules the way they want, or want to create a wand of inifinite fireballs for a pittance, or think that they should be allowed to play a 20th level paladin/20th level wizard half-fiend half-drow half-chicken death machine in a 1st level game becausethey insist that otherwise "they can't have fun." It's about the answers we get on these boards. That if we dare to complain that a player is being a d**khead for insisting on any of the above, we're told that we are failures as DMs and it is our job to let senor d**khead do whatever he wants, at the expense of the game, at the expense of other players, and ESPECIALLY at the expense of our own enjoyment of the work we have put into it. And I stand up with artman and say: No. That's incorrect. I'll take my game and play with people who DO appreciate my efforts to create an enjoyable game and screw those who want me to gratify their little ego-trips that are really just attempts at compensating for issues they have in real life anyway. Like artman, I also have a pretty decent gaming group. They're not my problem. My problem is the people on these boards who tell DMs that they must kow tow to the demands of the selfish and self-centered without regard to their own enjoyment.
Raynard the Black 03-03-04, 05:01 AM	I agree with Artman whole-heartedly. We as DM's get little respect on these boards from some players that think we were put on earth to cater to their every whim. In most cases, I feel that these players are not only unconcerned with how their DM feels about the game, but also how the other players feel about the game. I think in general that most people are self-centered and to me it seems more rampant than ever in recent years. The "what's in it for me" mentality is something that can destroy a game pretty easily. Players and DM's have a responsibility to make the game enjoyable for eachother. You obviously want to have fun playing/dming, however you must consider how your version of "fun" impacts everyone else's fun. If you feel the only way you can have fun is to steal from other players, then you aren't considering your fellow player's idea of fun. Being inconsiderate to your fellow players/DM has no place in the game. D&D is not a competative game. It is a collaborative one. The players must work together to solve the story. The DM must work with the players to help them solve the story by providing clues and facilitating encounters. Players that don't understand these concepts are not worth the paper their characters are printed on and should be kicked out of the group by the GROUP! Booting someone from the group in my opinion is not up to the DM, but up to the group as a whole. If the group wants the player removed from their game, then it is up to them to get that player out. I have to stop now as I could go on with this rant for quite a while. I have had my share of good players and bad players in my group. My group right now is pretty decent. Luckily I have recently been able to play the game from a players position as opposed to DMing. I feel that it is as much my responsibility to handle troublesome players in my group as it is my DM's responsibility. If we are to have a truly collaborative game we need to work at it. It doesn't come easy. Most things that are worth it don't come easy though. That's all I have to say on this subject.
Ankalagon 03-03-04, 10:10 AM	Take a look (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=170144) I think most DM's take on everything when they really do not have to. The load can be shared.
Cinderfall 03-05-04, 06:47 AM	Over the last year or two I've come to the realization that the longest running, most enjoyable games that I've run or played come from proactive interest on the Player's part. What I'm talking about is when the Players have put a good deal of effort and thought into their character, specifically in the areas of group function and longevity, and have worked with the DM to create a solid backstory. They have long term goals which are open enough to allow other PCs to participate and are something they can (and do) actively pursue. They also think of ways to participate in each other's goals, locking the group together in a convincing way (not the old "we are together because the players are all sitting around the same table"). What the hell does this have to do with this thread? This: When the Players do this they aren't just participating in a campaign they DRIVE it. They share (in an indirect way) the load of the story. Solid PCs provide the DM with two major elements; interest and direction. No more (well, less anyway)worrying what kind of adventures the Players want and whether or not the adventures will peak their interest. How many times must we club (or be clubbed) PCs with an adventure? It really gets me when the Players don't put in any work towards finding the type of adventure they want but are more than happy to grumble about what's provided. Hell, it bothers me when they can't remember the name of the NPC who's been dealing with them for the last five sessions. How hard is it to buy a notebook? But anyway...... When the Player's leave it all up to the DM it is really unfair. Unless all you're doing is playing a dungeon questing campaign where story details are of little import. The key (in my opinion) is for everyone in the group to sit down and hammer out the campaigns foundation BEFORE playing. Discuss the world, discuss the rules, discuss expectations and preferences, and most importantly discuss the PC group dynamic! I don't think its unfair to expect the Players to put a little work into making the game good on their end when considering how much work the DM has to do for every session. Sorry that this post wandered a bit from the topic, I hope it's clear that I generally agree with artman and the rest, just had to add my own bit. BTW, Sucineri, I like your post. I read #3 at 4 in the morning and it made me laugh. Thanks.
Naeron 03-05-04, 10:37 AM	Originally posted by artman Is it just me or are there too many posts on this board that state that it is the DM’s responsibility to do … everything. We have to make sure that all the players are having fun. We have to ensure that everyone is playing by the rules. We have to ensure that the rules are clearly understood. We have to take our players by the hand and explain to them when they are being annoying, inconsiderate, or rude and nicely talk to them so as not to scare them. We have to keep the pace quick and lively. We have to create a world and a plot, realistically many many many plots, for the PCs. Yes we have to ensure that the Players are having fun, this does not translate to mean that each individual must have their whims pandered to every time they want something. As a DM you are the final arbiter of the rules, so yes you need to learn them and yes you need to enforce them. But you do get to say what the rules are. You don't have to make sure the players understand the rules, just that they follow them - however its easier if they do understand them because you then spend less time enforcing them. Why would you need to hand-hold them, give that job to an experienced player. You have to keep the pace at a level that everyone enjoys, after all you control the world so you set the pace. Yes as the DM you control the world and the plots - its part of the basic job as a DM. If you can't find a setting you like you DO have to create one, if you don't want to run published adventures then you DO have to create adventures. Sorry but these are intrinsic element sof the job. You should take suggestions from the players as to what they may want to do but ultimately is is your campaign and your responsibility. Originally posted by artman The onus is on the DM to have all the materials, all the ideas, and all the patience. I have seen threads and responses wherein fellow DMs have been criticized for not bringing enough dice for everyone, for not being ready for derailed plots, and for wanting to just boot players from their game. It seems to me like the DMs of the world are player-whipped. You sit there content to merely caret to your players either because they are your friends, they outnumber you, or you “Just wanna have fun!” Having all the materials is necessary, if its in your campaign you should be able to cover it, if you don't like it exclude it. Again this is part of a DMs responsibility. I haven't seen critisicms about the DM not bringing enough dice. Bringing their character and dice is definitely a Players responsibility. A DM should be prepared to derailed plots, even if they just wing it. You prepare a plot, not a script, so you must accept that PC's may make choices that change things. True Railroading is bad DM'ing, giving players choices and letting them live with their choices is Good DM'ing. Originally posted by artman Too often have you worked hard on a game to have it sit unplayed. Too often have you spent uncounted hours working on NPCs to find that you players have barely remembered to bring their characters. Too often have you worried about your players having fun and too few are the times when you, my fellow DMs seem to worry about your fun. I would like to have it clearly stated that the players bear responsibility. It is not all on the DM. For those of you that post replies stating that it is the DM’s job to make sure the players are having fun I say that it is the players job to ensure that the DM is having fun. True, players should ensure their DM is having fun as well. But as a DM you must accept that not every adventure will happen as planned, perhaps the PC's feel that there is something more important for them to do than gather arcane ingredients in some distant mountain. But if you listen to the players you would often know this and be able to build adventures that start from the things the PCs would be interested in. Originally posted by artman To those that say that it is the DMs job to ensure that the players have enough good plots to follow so as to keep the story moving I say that it is the players job to find their own plots. Never in my life has an adventure fallen into my lap, limped up to me at a bar, run screaming down the road or in any other way found me. I have had many interesting and exciting events in my life and I have had to seek out each and every one. The PCs should have to do no less. To those DMs that say it is the DMs’ job to make sure the players know the rules I say that reading is an important part of life and gaming and if the players are unable to read the rules and understand them then they are to be pitied and show the door until suck time as they learn for themselves. We DMs have it hard enough. We spend hours planning out entire worlds, even if you use premade settings. We have to make and run hundreds of NPCs and know their goals and dreams or at least if they have a strange nervous twitch. We must make a world for the game to take place in. This is all the basic stuff. If the players cannot ensure that they themselves are having fun then that is their fault. If the players cannot take some responsibility for the game and it’s enjoyment for all, DMs included, then that is sad. From what I can see many of you work hard on your games and that is to be commended. Keep it up and don’t take on more than you should have to. You work hard enough. Being a DM is hard work, its a lot of responsibility, but its also a lot of fun to see your visions realised. But if you don't realise that you have to put a lot of time and effort into it and sometimes your work will be wasted (on that occasion as there is rarely a need to throw anything unused away) then you are missing what being a DM is really about. Players have responsibilities but those revolve around their character and their relationship with the group. Most of the things that involve the campaign world are the DM's responsibility.
Sid_Patterson 03-05-04, 06:05 PM	Good post Artman. While I happen to agree, other folks expressing their opinions that I/we strongly disagree with is just part of expressing our ideas in a public forum like this. Wether my outlook is the same as one or two folks or not, if I want to say my piece I’d better be ready to have every “nuh uh, you’re wrong” sayer come out of the woodwork. I like being a game master. It’s difficult. I demand that my players be a proactive asset to the game or I don’t have any use for them.
Auber Furyblade 03-05-04, 07:15 PM	I agree with Artman. I think just about everything I have to say has been covered in previous posts. I just want to add my "hear hear" to the idea that while DM's have the most responsibility for a game, that doesn't absolve players of putting forth the necessary time and effort as well. There is a lot of talk about making sure DM's live up to their responsibilities, but not a lot focusing on what players should, and can, do on their end. Part of the issue is different games require different levels of involvement. I tend to run games that require a lot of player involvement. Just showing up for my campaign most weeks with a character sheet and a smile doesn't cut it and those kinds of players quickly fall by the wayside. However, I know DM's who are happy to have player who just do that and there's the rub. While a DM's responsibilities generally remain constant from group to group players responsibilites vary. Perhaps what we need in this thread, or a new one thread, is a discussion about what kind of DMing styles people have and the kinds of responsibilites they expect their players to shoulder.