Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Timely Drought 06-25-05, 04:45 PM	What am I supposed to do with this group? No front-line fighters, no full spellcasters. Ranger's favored enemy is aberration. Rogue is skill monkey, bard is diplomancer, ranger is archer, monk is dex monkey. Start at first level. I have no idea how to challenge these guys without slaughtering them. CRs are going to be out of whack, they're essentially worthless. These guys are weak in both combat and magic. I was thinking city adventures with occasional dungeon-delving under the city. And some conspiracy involving mind flayers, alienists, and the Far Realm. They can't fight monsters their CR, and having them face humanoid NPCs their CR means they get insane loot from their magic items. Core only campaign. PHB, DMG, MM. No psionics. Custom campaign-specific (prestige classes etc.) content by DM only. Leadership feat banned.
Kintaran 06-25-05, 04:57 PM	Skirmishes against random small critters. Give them some range to engage. Face them off against low-AC, low HP, fractional CR monsters like kobolds, and in small numbers. But, do keep them coming. Or, social adventures. Political intrigue with the occasional shadowy brawl. That way, you do not need to test their resources. If healing is the only problem, let them get wands of cure. Both ranger and bard can use them.
Dreaming_in_the_void 06-25-05, 06:26 PM	You have four classes with at least some proficiency in the steath area. Looks like you're playing Metal Gear until they toughen up... the party will have to be smart and silent to survive. A guild war or "war of the roses" style noble fued with plenty of sneaking/cloak and dagger should do the trick.
Astinex 06-25-05, 06:31 PM	Looks like a great opportunity for roleplaying. If it is developed well, they could be used by a city or 'the powers that be' as a group of infiltrators, scouts, and/or skirmishers (hit & run tactics). I'd use the diplomacy & skills to your advantage. Allow the group to overcome challenges using unconventional methods. Another alternative is to set up your encounters with "Bond" type moves available. (i.e. Ranger shoots a rope and releases something to alter the encounter, Bard creates a distraction or lure to ensure a laid trap is sprung with efficiency, Rogue stealthily kills the 'leader' of an encounter and the 'minions' rout, Monk crosses a precarious gap to take out weak archers effectively winning the encounter, etc.) It will become the PC’s job to find these hidden advantages. At low level I would make them a bit obvious, but at higher levels they could get harder & harder to spot by the PC’s.
Yak of Darkness 06-25-05, 06:43 PM	The old cliché missions should work just fine for this party, just with different ways of handling them. A band of orcs has been attacking caravans along a trade road? They can scout for high ground to attack at range along, set up ambushes, arrange traps, and the like. A mad wizard is doing evil in his Tower of Doom? They can gather info from the townsfolk to learn about his habits, then bribe/diplo/whatever any non-undead or construct guards to learn about the wizard's weaknesses or the tower's secrets. Wall-scaling and the like can also come in handy here, sneaking up to the wizard's chambers and knifing him while he's asleep. The only thing that'll stymie these guys more than usual is the dungeon or keep full of undead. With no cleric and an archer ranger, skeletons are going to be pretty much the sole domain of the monk, which might not be the best deal. Stealth, avoidance, and traps are going to be their best bet. That said, if a big bad necromancer has decided to raise zombies instead of skels, they'll just run past 'em. Based on the class choices, it seems like the PCs want to run a more hit-and-run, stealthy, diplomatic, skill-using, and ranged game. There are plenty of good missions that can be run with that, although they will have to put more emphasis into planning, as these kinds of challenges require a bit more of it than the normal "hide behind the tanks" low-level strategy. EDIT: And I agree wholeheartedly that setting up a few "Bond move"-like things in your dungeons will increase the fun in the game. It will reward a party that pays better attention to their surroundings, which these guys really should. Plus, it allows you to really make for some creative dungeon design.
Mirikon 06-25-05, 07:26 PM	What am I supposed to do with this group? No front-line fighters, no full spellcasters. Ranger's favored enemy is aberration. Rogue is skill monkey, bard is diplomancer, ranger is archer, monk is dex monkey. Start at first level. I have no idea how to challenge these guys without slaughtering them. CRs are going to be out of whack, they're essentially worthless. These guys are weak in both combat and magic. I was thinking city adventures with occasional dungeon-delving under the city. And some conspiracy involving mind flayers, alienists, and the Far Realm. They can't fight monsters their CR, and having them face humanoid NPCs their CR means they get insane loot from their magic items. Core only campaign. PHB, DMG, MM. No psionics. Custom campaign-specific (prestige classes etc.) content by DM only. Leadership feat banned. Simple, really. Don't make every encounter a 'you see three orcs, and they charge' kind of deal. With this group, you should probably expect them to be doing a lot of hit and run kind of things. I'd expect sniping to be a favorite hobby.
Flushmaster 06-25-05, 07:31 PM	Alienests and the Far Realm. In a "core only" campaign. BS. You're using non-core materials but the players can't? That's a sign of a weak DM, much along the lines of a "low magic campaign" being one in which everybody but the PCs have magical items and access to spellcasting classes but most magical loot somehow vanishes before the players can use it or has some horrible effect on them (a BBEG with a +4 sword that bestows 4 negative levels on any non-evil character who wields it and the PCs are all good aligned, for example). Get yourself straight before pulling that phony "core only" crap.
clarkvalentine 06-25-05, 09:10 PM	Looks like a great opportunity for roleplaying. If it is developed well, they could be used by a city or 'the powers that be' as a group of infiltrators, scouts, and/or skirmishers (hit & run tactics). Oh heck yeah. These guys are Ocean's Four. Infiltrations, con jobs, James Bond spy type stuff, - these guys would make a fantastically fun party.
The Mad Hatter 10 6 06-25-05, 09:27 PM	I agree that your adventures need to be tailored to your character's strengths ... which is going to be mostly sneaky type missions. The party can be a thief-catcher squad, working for a local municipality. Perhaps they are the guys that folks know they can come to when something needs to be aquired "quietly". The classes in your party definately can not go toe to toe with most of the monsters detailed in the manuals, so you are going to have to come up with alternative ways to challenge them that allow them to use stealth, diplomancy, and their minds.
Timely Drought 06-25-05, 10:22 PM	You're using non-core materials but the players can't? Yes. Its what our group agreed to. DM can bring in custom campaign-specific material, players stick to PHB. This is how our group operates. We all agreed to this for various reasons. I'm not sure why you're so offended by that.
Timely Drought 06-25-05, 10:30 PM	I agree that your adventures need to be tailored to your character's strengths ... which is going to be mostly sneaky type missions. The party can be a thief-catcher squad, working for a local municipality. Perhaps they are the guys that folks know they can come to when something needs to be aquired "quietly". I was actually thinking of making them supernatural investigators in the city's constabulary. Pack in a corrupt bureaucracy, some scheming archmages, all manner of cults (draconic and aberrant especially). A godless city, except maybe for a druidic order. Or maybe they should be private investigators?
Melichor 06-27-05, 03:31 PM	You could go with something like the old Friday the 13th TV show. Lot's of lost powerful, but strange and corrupt artifacts that need to be recovered.
pres_man 06-27-05, 03:52 PM	You might also consider dropping in a wand of cure light wounds (or two) to help with the healing. Bards and rangers can use wands of cure light wounds at as low as 1st level with no chance of failure.
Morka 06-27-05, 04:28 PM	Your bard could use his diplomacy skills to hire a few adventurers. Have a few NPCs ready to help them. A fighter, a wizard, and a cleric. Not all in the same time, but it should help them to have a wizard when they especially need one. Each one could require some "favor" as payment, leading to further sub-plots.
Arrowhen 06-27-05, 04:34 PM	Alienests and the Far Realm. In a "core only" campaign. BS. You're using non-core materials but the players can't? That's a sign of a weak DM... Not necessarily. I run a "core only" campaign with a few select non-core elements. For example, there are Warlock NPCs. PCs aren't allowed to be Warlocks for the simple reason that no one in the world has heard of them yet; what few Warlocks currently exist have recently been granted their powers by a powerful demonic entity who is using them as tools to facilitate his return to the material plane. In a future campaign in the same setting I'd certainly allow a player to play, say, a Warlock who'd rebelled against this demonic entity and was now fighing to foil his plans, but at the moment I wouldn't make sense story-wise to allow one. I hardly think this makes me a "weak DM."
Timely Drought 06-27-05, 05:58 PM	Your bard could use his diplomacy skills to hire a few adventurers. Have a few NPCs ready to help them. A fighter, a wizard, and a cleric. Not all in the same time, but it should help them to have a wizard when they especially need one. Each one could require some "favor" as payment, leading to further sub-plots.I'd rather not, actually. I'd prefer tailoring adventures to their abilities. This might end up with Cthulhu-like elements, PCs as investigators against unfathomable alien forces, mad cultists running amok, investigating and chase scenes. Maybe they'll have access to a Tree of Life reincarnation/resurrection thingie through a druid patron. Eventually they'll get mixed up in politics of the archmages, their cronies, and those who seek to overthrow them. But I certainly don't want any NPCs following the PCs around as henchmen. They might be able to get a few city guards if they have an arrest warrant and they expect resistance. They may have access to say, the comissioner who guides and monitors their investigations. Dunno what other NPCs to put in the constabulary. Maybe an administrative assistant to keep their files in order, maybe provide a few knowledge skills that the group lacks. I'm also going to need a librarian, an antiquarian, a few *****s (good for needing rescuing and gossiping about nobility and their scheming), a druid, a thieves guild, the city guard with a captain that has a hard-on for the supernatural investigations division, the archmages, cultists, bureaucrats, slaves (I was thinking halflings), a tavern called Tanelorn with a few barmaids, an ancient cunning dragon, an alienist, some mind flayers, ...
Talanall 06-27-05, 06:28 PM	What am I supposed to do with this group? No front-line fighters, no full spellcasters. Ranger's favored enemy is aberration. Rogue is skill monkey, bard is diplomancer, ranger is archer, monk is dex monkey. Start at first level. So far, I don't actually see a problem. They do not have front-line fighters or full spellcasters. You're assuming that they absolutely need them, but that's not really the case. I've had similar groups in the past, both as a player and as a DM, and there are ways to deal with combat without people to fill those roles. What your party lacks, in the non-spellcasting realm, is a high-Str fighter or barbarian to act as a tank, dealing out heavy damage and soaking up the brunt of the damage dealt out in melee combat that features trades of full attack for full attack. These are not essential, particularly since your party includes a monk and a ranger. A monk's mobility on a land-based battlefield is unmatched by anything short of teleportation magic. I suggest that you should talk to the monk's player about the Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack feat chain, and that he should take a good look at Stunning Fist and/or Improved Trip. The monk will not be all that great at dealing damage, but he will do very well indeed at messing up the enemy's ability to deal damage, and he'll soon be able to do his job with minimal risk of being attacked himself. Paired with a monk who makes it his priority not to deal damage, but to function as a walking source of status ailments, a ranger with archery specialization is extremely powerful, since he then enjoys the role of primary damage-dealer without having to worry about being subjected to a charge attack by his target. Once he gets hold of a good magical bow, he will become especially fearsome; a +1 holy longbow or shortbow and a selection of arrows tipped with the appropriate materials will make him a real threat to any creature with DR that he's likely to end up fighting. The rogue will also benefit from an association with the monk, since Stunning Fist will afford him more opportunities to deal sneak attack damage, and since (even though a monk isn't a front-line fighter), he'll have a stealthy ally who can accompany him on scouting missions. The same holds true for the ranger and the bard. And while you have characterized the bard as being other than a "full spellcaster," I have to disagree. Respectfully, you're wrong about that. Bardic music is a great thing to have for a party like this one, since it is one of the best ways for them to add that little bit of extra punch to their (normally) weaker attacks. The bard's magic focuses on illusion, enchantment, and conjuration, which is also a good point for a group like yours, since their success in combat will depend upon their ability to manufacture favorable terms within which to do battle. As focused on trickery as it is, a bard's magical repetoire is eminently suitable for this job. I was thinking city adventures with occasional dungeon-delving under the city. And some conspiracy involving mind flayers, alienists, and the Far Realm. They can't fight monsters their CR, and having them face humanoid NPCs their CR means they get insane loot from their magic items. These are good ideas, but again, I disagree with your assessment of whether you can use monsters of these characters' CR. You can; CR is not meant to be an assessment of what monster is going to be a HARD encounter for these characters. CR equal to the party's average level indicates that you should expect the party to be able to handle 4 encounters in a row, without stopping to rest and recuperate, before there's real danger that one of the PCs will die. I'll give you an example, using fictional level 1 PCs as examples. For my example, I'll assume the following characters, using the elite array for stats, and I'll pit them against a choker (CR 2): Elf ranger 1: CR 1; ECL 1; Medium humanoid (elf); Hit Dice 1d8; 8 hp; Init +3; Spd 30 ft. (6 squares); AC 16, 13 touch, 13 flat-footed; BAB/Grapple +1/+1; Atk +1 melee (1d8/19-20, longsword), or +1 melee (1d4/19-20, dagger), or +4 ranged (1d8/x3, longbow); SQ 1st favored enemy (aberrations, +2 bonus), immunity to sleep spells and effects, low-light vision, door sense, wild empathy, +2 racial bonus to saves vs. enchantment spells and effects; AL CG; SV Fort +2, Reflex +5, Will +2; Str 10, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8. Skills and Feats: Climb +1, Heal +6, Hide +6, Jump +1, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +3, Knowledge (nature) +3, Listen +4, Move Silently +6, Search +3, Spot +8, Survival +6; Point Blank Shot, Track. Possessions: studded leather armor, longsword, dagger, longbow, backpack, waterskin, 1 day's trail rations, bedroll, sack, flint and steel, three torches, quiver with 20 arrows. Human monk 1: CR 1; ECL 1; Medium humanoid (human); HD 1d8+1; 9 hp; Init +2; Spd 30 ft. (6 squares); AC 14, 14 touch, 12 flat-footed; BAB/Grapple +0/+1; Atk +1 melee (1d6+1, unarmed strike), or +1 melee (1d6+1, quarterstaff), or +2 ranged (1d2+1, shuriken); Full atk -1/-1 melee (1d6+1, unarmed strike), or -1/-1 melee (1d6+1 quarterstaff), or +0/+0 ranged (1d2+1, shuriken); AL LN; SV Fort +3, Reflex +4, Will +4; Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8. Skills and Feats: Balance +4, Hide +5, Jump +3, Listen +6, Move Silently +5, Spot +6, Tumble +4; Dodge, Mobility, Stunning Fist. Possessions: quarterstaff, 10 shuriken, backpack, waterskin, 1 day's trail rations, bedroll, sack, flint and steel, three torches. Halfling rog 1: CR 1; ECL 1; Small humanoid (halfling); HD 1d6; 6 hp; Init +3; Spd 20 ft. (4 squares); AC 16, 14 touch, 13 flat-footed; BAB/Grapple +0/-4; Atk +1 melee (1d4/19-20, short sword), or +4 melee (1d6/19-20, light crossbow, or +1 melee/+5 ranged (1d3/19-20, dagger); SA sneak attack +1d6; SQ +1 racial bonus to saves, +2 morale bonus to saves vs. fear, +2 racial bonus to Climb, Jump, Listen and Move Silently checks, +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings; AL NG; SV Fort +1, Reflex +6, Will +2; Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 8. Skills and Feats: Appraise +4, Climb +2, Hide +11, Jump +6, Disable Device +6, Listen +7, Move Silently +9, Open Locks +7, Sleight of Hand +5, Search +6, Spot +5, Tumble +7; Improved Initiative. Possessions: leather armor, short sword, light crossbow, dagger, backpack, waterskin, 1 day's trail rations, bedroll, sack, flint and steel, three torches. Half-elf bard 1: CR 1; ECL 1; Medium humanoid (elf) (human); HD 1d6+1; 7 hp; Init +2; Spd 30 ft. (6 squares); AC 15, 12 touch, 13 flat-footed; BAB/Grapple +0/+0; Atk +0 melee (1d8/19-20, longsword), or +2 ranged (1d6/x3, short bow); SA spells; SQ bardic knowledge +2, bardic music (countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1), elven blood, immunity to sleep spells and effects, low-light vision, +1 racial bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot checks, +2 racial bonus to Gather Information and Diplomacy checks, +2 racial bonus to saves vs. enchantment spells and effects; AL CG; SV Fort +1, Reflex +4 Will +1; Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 15. Skills and Feats: Bluff +5, Diplomacy +7, Gather Information +7, Listen +2, Sense Motive +3, Perform (vocal) +6, Spot +2, Use Magic Device +5; Dodge. Possessions: studded leaher armor, longsword, short bow, backpack, waterskin, 1 day's trail rations, bedroll, sack, flint and steel, three torches. Bard Spells Known (2): 0th--detect magic, ghost sound, prestidigitation, read magic. Now, let's consider the choker. It's got AC 16, it attacks at a +6 bonus, and it deals 1d3+3 damage per attack. It's got much better Hide and Move Silently skills, and it can climb very well. Its Spot and Listen scores suck. The ranger is almost certain to see or hear it before it sees or hears him, even without taking into account the ranger's favored enemy bonuses. At that point, this party wins, because they'll be going into combat with a creature that doesn't move very fast, has a fairly low AC, and only has 16 or so hit points. More than that, the party is going to do better against this choker than most, because it relies so heavily on ranged attack. The choker is a reach/grapple monster, and it would pose a very serious danger to a fighter or barbarian of the same level as this party, because it would simply grab hold of such a character and do what its name suggests. It can't do that, here. The monk is its best bet, since there's a good chance that the monk will come in for melee and try to use Stunning Fist, but the monk's Mobility feat makes that a losing bet for the choker, and the choker has a poor Fort save. The party will absolutely steamroll this creature, and it is CR 2, not CR 1. By comparison, a party made up of the standard barbarian/cleric/rogue/wizard combo, at 1st level, might very well find that its scouts miss the choker, and that it will proceed to ambush the party wizard, probably killing him in the first round. After that, it'll climb the walls to get out of the fighter's reach, and either scuttle off to congratulate itself, or try to get the cleric or rogue next. It's also worth it for you to think about the very real impact of the bard's Inspire Courage music. +1 to attack/damage/saves is a BIG deal when you're first level. That point of extra damage can tip the scales in a really close fight. Now, the big shortcoming I can see in a party like this one is that healing between encounters is a problem. If you, as a DM, want to make life a touch easier for the players, let them pick up a wand of cure light wounds early on in the campaign. The bard can get a few ranks of Use Magic Device, and keep the party on its feet. Ability damage, disease, and other status ailments will continue to pose a problem for them, so you will want to be aware of this weakness when you choose encounters; undead are a MUCH nastier problem for this group of adventurers than for a barbarian/cleric/rogue/wizard group. Aside from that, this group will fare badly in fights that feature more than one strong melee opponent, or when they're dealing with a large number of less powerful melee fighters. A horde of kobolds with spears will present difficulties for them for much longer than it would for a more traditional group. On the other hand, a succubus or rakshasa will present far FEWER problems, since this group excels at stealth, deception, and intelligence-gathering. It may also prove helpful to you if you spend some time, early on, getting the PCs into a friendly relationship with a religious organization, if only so that they can retreat from an adventure, if need be, and have access to restoration, remove disease, and other such curative magic which will fall outside of the scope of the bard's spellcasting and UMD. This needn't be an onerous burden; it's just a matter of planning. Overall I think that you're overstating the ineptitude of this party in combat. You'll have to run your combats with a sure hand, but I don't think you're looking at the inevitable death of the entire party if you hit them with a creature equal to as much as their CR + 3. Choose your encounters with care, of course, but you should be doing that anyway.
StormCrow42 06-27-05, 06:47 PM	Now, the big shortcoming I can see in a party like this one is that healing between encounters is a problem. If you, as a DM, want to make life a touch easier for the players, let them pick up a wand of cure light wounds early on in the campaign. The bard can get a few ranks of Use Magic Device, and keep the party on its feet. Just a quick note, but the bard doesn't need UMD to pick up the cure light wounds wand, since CLW is already on the bard spell list. Of course taking UMD for all sorts of other wands and scrolls is certainly a viable plan.
solbergb 06-27-05, 07:28 PM	Having played with a lot of whacky parties in Living Greyhawk, these guys may surprise you. Anyone can be a front-line fighter if the bard has crippled the opposition with grease, glitterdust or confusion (and buffed them with bardsongs, haste, etc) A bard can do most cleric and wizard roles except for direct damage. He'll need to pick spells carefully. An archer can generally cover for the direct damage, especially with bardic buffing, and the rogue and monk will do pretty well vs opposition that can be stunned or sneak-attacked. The bard and ranger can heal people between encounters. In-combat healing is overrated, I have been in a number of parties that did without. You just have to be careful, and badly injured people need to withdraw instead of calling for a heal. This party will usually get surprise instead of being surprised. Every single member has spot and listen on their class list, and every single member has stealth skills on the class list, which can be enhanced with invisibility, silence or illusions if that isn't good enough . That will make a HUGE difference. Eventually the ranger will have an expendible animal companion that can be used to spring ambushes/draw out the opposition. Until then, silent images from the bard can do the trick. I think you should just have your campaign be whatever you intended it to be and let the players rise to the challenge. Wands of CLW are the only thing I see that really should be readily available. Decent access to scrolls or wands of bardic or ranger spells will also help the group, and if the rogue or bard cranks UMD, the scrolls of any spell list are helpful.
Dragonspirit 06-27-05, 07:49 PM	YOU DO WHATEVER YOU WERE GOING TO DO Seriously, the player party configuration should have jack to do with how you configure your challenges. THEY will need to overcome it, or Darwin will kick in until the party evolves into a competant and capable machine (character death is NOT always a tragedy - sometimes it's a necessity). Be fair, don't nerf, and don't fudge. Keep the same challenges as you would for any party. Otherwise you just cheat the players out of any justified sense of accomplishment for what they overcome.
Timely Drought 06-27-05, 08:49 PM	I'm more of the philosophy that the types of abilities that players pick for their characters indicate what type of challenges they want to face. Going for a standard D&D dungeon crawl hacking and slashing with a minimum of everything else will probably bore or frustrate them. I don't see the point in that.