A Rogue and Wizard party only? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Rogue and Wizard party only? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Balagon11
09-12-07, 12:56 AM I just started to learn to play dnd i picked up the rule books hoping my friends would play. i went over the basics of charecter creation a week ago and they say theat one of them wants to be a a necromancer and the other a rogue. i want them to both play two charecters for a cleric fighter wizard and rogue party but they wont. i sugested tha my friend play a fighter instead of a rogue but he said he would only do that if he was vampire which i think is unbalenced for a lvl1 fighter. im trying to get more people to play but they all live far away and it would be hard for a weekly game. I just want them to survive and if they die i hace to throw away the campaighn i was working on. do you have any tips on convincing them to change charecter classes or to alter my campaighn for a rogue necro party?
Kazuhiro
09-12-07, 01:04 AM *two* characters?

Okay, let's break this down. You have two players. You want four characters for two players? That's just stupid. You can't roleplay two characters. Certainly not if you're a beginner.

I would bring in a DMPC who's a bard, then change your campaign to have a lot less fighting and a lot more non-combat quests (steal a key, find an ancient ruin, interact with deeply built NPCs who send you on side quests)
The9Circles
09-12-07, 01:16 AM I just started to learn to play dnd i picked up the rule books hoping my friends would play. i went over the basics of charecter creation a week ago and they say theat one of them wants to be a a necromancer and the other a rogue. i want them to both play two charecters for a cleric fighter wizard and rogue party but they wont. i sugested tha my friend play a fighter instead of a rogue but he said he would only do that if he was vampire which i think is unbalenced for a lvl1 fighter. im trying to get more people to play but they all live far away and it would be hard for a weekly game. I just want them to survive and if they die i hace to throw away the campaighn i was working on. do you have any tips on convincing them to change charecter classes or to alter my campaighn for a rogue necro party?

Gestalt and do EL-1 what you would give a 4 character party should work.

Have the Wizard be a Wizard//Cleric and have the rogue be a Rogue//Fighter.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

It may be a bit confusing for a new player...just tell them they get to be 'uber ' strong. =)
Tedronai
09-12-07, 01:18 AM The Gestalt variant from Unearthed Arcana (available here (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html)) would go a long way to solving this problem

Edit: ninja'd, I see...
ShoshoniMacaroni
09-12-07, 01:23 AM Yes, a couple of my friends are going through the same issue. Almost exactly, in fact.

My cousin and I bought books and quite a few figures, we wanted to play (for the first time). One of my friends has played D&D before, and another that wants to play but has not. We came together. I was a sorcerer, my cousin was a rogue, my friend who hasn't played cs was a fighter. The friend who has played D&D before was the DM.

We have only had one session. During that session our characters were supposed to meet each other on the way to a place called "Southfield". We did so, and set up camp. We wake up and are assaulted by a dozen undead kobolds. We had about 3 hours worth of fighting and it ended up some guy comes and kills all the undead kobolds.

We were very disappointed. We found out later that the undead kobolds had DR 5 piercing. What do you think the problem here is? Bad DMing?
Senevri
09-12-07, 02:09 AM Yes. New DMs always suck. No exceptions.
The thing about CR -- as much as I disparage them, they're much closer to correct at low levels. 4 kobolds are a CR 1 challenge - an appropriate speedbump for four characters. DR / piercing... no idea where that came from, but I'd say that being undead should up the lowly kobold to an at least cr 1/2 challenge.
So, 12 of those is about a CR 6 challenge. That's overpowering/impossible for first level characters.
Another_Poet
09-12-07, 10:30 AM Going gestalt for brand new players is almost as confusing as having them run multiple characters. Start them both off at level 2. Then let them buy a couple healing potions and throw CR-appropriate monsters at them. They'll scrape by.

ap
StSteven
09-12-07, 11:47 AM You know, I get tired of hearing how bad 2 characters is. It is no worse than a DMPC. Of course, back in the day, we all had multiple characters and the DMPC was just an NPC.

This game isn't that hard. It isn't rocket science. They should be able to work the gestault thing, or the 2 pc thing. I, however, would just throw in an NPC fighter and some healing potions. Go easy on then tactically until they get the hang of it and everything should be fine.
CeilingNinja
09-12-07, 12:47 PM Potions and Wands
BW0222
09-12-07, 02:44 PM Balagon11,

IMO, some not so great advice here for new players. Don't cheat new players by making them second level, by asking them to play different characters, etc.

My advice...

1. Let them play the rogue and necromancer.

2. Give them some help in the form of an NPC and some equipment for next next few levels. Say, a 2nd-level bard (with healing) hires the PCs to help him find some grave robbers. The bard is from a wealthy family and gives the PCs some tanglefoot bags and a couple potions of cure light wounds.

2. Lower the EL of any combats. Pick fewer combatants, weaker foes, or make it likely that the PCs will gain surprise or pick those likely fairly suseptable to the PCs. Try slightly fewer combats -- more puzzles, roleplaying, stealth type missions, etc. or ones which can be overcome without direct fighting -- such as freeing an orc in a goblin den who will happily kill the goblin leader for them.

3. Have NPCs give advice. For example, the bard will suggest not doing frontal assaults.

4. Give them some extra XP so they reach 2nd and 3rd-levels quicker.

5. Be generous on potions of curing and/or access to clerics.
Vharuck
09-12-07, 05:30 PM Actually, this isn't as bad as it looks. I suggest the following:

1) The players approach encounters not head-on but with planning, tactics, and such. This is always nice, but without a beatstick or meatshield type character, it's become a must. However, now the planning and short encounters won't make the fighter feel useless, because there is no fighter. Devising, setting up, and carrying out a plan will be very engaging and difficult enough for these two players to enjoy it.

2) Don't coddle them. If you play to their strengths alone, they'll always win, realize they can't lose, and get bored. Of course, you should avoid throwing about random encounters that are nothing but "Three trolls leap from behind the bushes and swing big clubs at you!" I mean keep the adventures normal, and the players will come up with ways to play upon their strengths.

3) Tell your Rogue to put ranks in Use Magic Item. That way he can use wands and scrolls of healing spells.

4) Don't use a DMPC. Instead, use an NPC ally. The key difference is that DMPCs tend to also be primary characters along with the PCs, while NPCs are secondary characters at best. Not really focused on, they have feelings and aspirations but nobody cares as much.

5) Just thought of this one: in light of one of your players being a necromancer, give that player a skeletal or zombified cohort and an amulet to control it. Maybe the necromancer received this as a gift, or recovered it. In any case, have the undead advance just like a normal character; it can gain levels, learn feats, blah blah blah. Basically, you're adding an NPC fighter but I think this way will be more liked.
Sildatorak
09-12-07, 07:38 PM They should just have 1 character each. If you decide to add an NPC buddy who accompanies them on adventures, keep the mental stats low, especially Intelligence and Charisma. This will keep the focus off of the brute or band-aid that goes along with them.

Personally, I'd let them go it alone. At first, just give them missions where they can take their time and withdraw into town to heal up if need be. This works particularly well if they have been employed by a church of some fashion that will provide them with cheap or free healing while they are on the mission.
Werral
09-12-07, 08:34 PM I've almost always played with 2 players per session (though the group was around 6-8 people). BW0222's ideas are pretty cool.

Also think about, who would hire a rogue and necromancer duo? Some weird shady types is who.

Urban encounters, grave-robbing (or anti-grave-robbing), people who don't want to admit they've got undead in the house, the thieves guild needing a joint cased, a taxidermist who wants protection, rat-catchers threatened by dire-rats - a few levels later they find out that the were-rats running the town are behind it.

They could also make quite good detectives (not just for the law, but also for the other side). An expert criminal and a guy who (in a few levels time) can talk to the dead? So throw murder mysteries, people who've been framed (maybe the PC's are originally hired to catch the innocent guy).

Chuck in a vampire or two in the background, maybe they could be on the run from a vampire till they get powerful enough to confront it.

If they wanted to just go around bashing stuff they wouldn't have chosen theses characters, give 'em weird stuff.

If the necromancer gets appropriately stealthy they can act as spies/assasins, dealing with evil warlords and bypassing the guards.

Remember that overcoming challenges doesn't necessarily mean fighting them. Story XP is your friend.
VulcanStormwrath
09-12-07, 09:24 PM An illusionist or summoner with a rogue can run an awesome monster slaying/ demon hunting scam.
Another_Poet
09-12-07, 10:21 PM Starting them at 2nd level is cheating, but handing out free XP to "so they reach 2nd and 3rd levels faster" isn't?

The first time I ever played I joined a campaign as a 4th level character. It allowed me to have some cool powers and even use a monster race, which was a blast at the time. There's nothing wrong with starting new characters above L1.

AP

Balagon11,

IMO, some not so great advice here for new players. Don't cheat new players by making them second level, by asking them to play different characters, etc.
PhaedrusXY
09-12-07, 10:35 PM Actually, this isn't as bad as it looks. I suggest the following:

1) The players approach encounters not head-on but with planning, tactics, and such. This is always nice, but without a beatstick or meatshield type character, it's become a must. However, now the planning and short encounters won't make the fighter feel useless, because there is no fighter. Devising, setting up, and carrying out a plan will be very engaging and difficult enough for these two players to enjoy it.

2) Don't coddle them. If you play to their strengths alone, they'll always win, realize they can't lose, and get bored. Of course, you should avoid throwing about random encounters that are nothing but "Three trolls leap from behind the bushes and swing big clubs at you!" I mean keep the adventures normal, and the players will come up with ways to play upon their strengths.

3) Tell your Rogue to put ranks in Use Magic Item. That way he can use wands and scrolls of healing spells.

4) Don't use a DMPC. Instead, use an NPC ally. The key difference is that DMPCs tend to also be primary characters along with the PCs, while NPCs are secondary characters at best. Not really focused on, they have feelings and aspirations but nobody cares as much.

5) Just thought of this one: in light of one of your players being a necromancer, give that player a skeletal or zombified cohort and an amulet to control it. Maybe the necromancer received this as a gift, or recovered it. In any case, have the undead advance just like a normal character; it can gain levels, learn feats, blah blah blah. Basically, you're adding an NPC fighter but I think this way will be more liked.THIS! (is excellent advice)

There is a necromancer variant in Unearthed Arcana, which can also be found in this version of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm), which has a skeletal cohort almost exactly like what you're talking about in #5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#skeletalMin ion).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Balagon11 09-12-07, 12:56 AM	I just started to learn to play dnd i picked up the rule books hoping my friends would play. i went over the basics of charecter creation a week ago and they say theat one of them wants to be a a necromancer and the other a rogue. i want them to both play two charecters for a cleric fighter wizard and rogue party but they wont. i sugested tha my friend play a fighter instead of a rogue but he said he would only do that if he was vampire which i think is unbalenced for a lvl1 fighter. im trying to get more people to play but they all live far away and it would be hard for a weekly game. I just want them to survive and if they die i hace to throw away the campaighn i was working on. do you have any tips on convincing them to change charecter classes or to alter my campaighn for a rogue necro party?
Kazuhiro 09-12-07, 01:04 AM	two characters? Okay, let's break this down. You have two players. You want four characters for two players? That's just stupid. You can't roleplay two characters. Certainly not if you're a beginner. I would bring in a DMPC who's a bard, then change your campaign to have a lot less fighting and a lot more non-combat quests (steal a key, find an ancient ruin, interact with deeply built NPCs who send you on side quests)
The9Circles 09-12-07, 01:16 AM	I just started to learn to play dnd i picked up the rule books hoping my friends would play. i went over the basics of charecter creation a week ago and they say theat one of them wants to be a a necromancer and the other a rogue. i want them to both play two charecters for a cleric fighter wizard and rogue party but they wont. i sugested tha my friend play a fighter instead of a rogue but he said he would only do that if he was vampire which i think is unbalenced for a lvl1 fighter. im trying to get more people to play but they all live far away and it would be hard for a weekly game. I just want them to survive and if they die i hace to throw away the campaighn i was working on. do you have any tips on convincing them to change charecter classes or to alter my campaighn for a rogue necro party? Gestalt and do EL-1 what you would give a 4 character party should work. Have the Wizard be a Wizard//Cleric and have the rogue be a Rogue//Fighter. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm It may be a bit confusing for a new player...just tell them they get to be 'uber ' strong. =)
Tedronai 09-12-07, 01:18 AM	The Gestalt variant from Unearthed Arcana (available here (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html)) would go a long way to solving this problem Edit: ninja'd, I see...
ShoshoniMacaroni 09-12-07, 01:23 AM	Yes, a couple of my friends are going through the same issue. Almost exactly, in fact. My cousin and I bought books and quite a few figures, we wanted to play (for the first time). One of my friends has played D&D before, and another that wants to play but has not. We came together. I was a sorcerer, my cousin was a rogue, my friend who hasn't played cs was a fighter. The friend who has played D&D before was the DM. We have only had one session. During that session our characters were supposed to meet each other on the way to a place called "Southfield". We did so, and set up camp. We wake up and are assaulted by a dozen undead kobolds. We had about 3 hours worth of fighting and it ended up some guy comes and kills all the undead kobolds. We were very disappointed. We found out later that the undead kobolds had DR 5 piercing. What do you think the problem here is? Bad DMing?
Senevri 09-12-07, 02:09 AM	Yes. New DMs always suck. No exceptions. The thing about CR -- as much as I disparage them, they're much closer to correct at low levels. 4 kobolds are a CR 1 challenge - an appropriate speedbump for four characters. DR / piercing... no idea where that came from, but I'd say that being undead should up the lowly kobold to an at least cr 1/2 challenge. So, 12 of those is about a CR 6 challenge. That's overpowering/impossible for first level characters.
Another_Poet 09-12-07, 10:30 AM	Going gestalt for brand new players is almost as confusing as having them run multiple characters. Start them both off at level 2. Then let them buy a couple healing potions and throw CR-appropriate monsters at them. They'll scrape by. ap
StSteven 09-12-07, 11:47 AM	You know, I get tired of hearing how bad 2 characters is. It is no worse than a DMPC. Of course, back in the day, we all had multiple characters and the DMPC was just an NPC. This game isn't that hard. It isn't rocket science. They should be able to work the gestault thing, or the 2 pc thing. I, however, would just throw in an NPC fighter and some healing potions. Go easy on then tactically until they get the hang of it and everything should be fine.
CeilingNinja 09-12-07, 12:47 PM	Potions and Wands
BW0222 09-12-07, 02:44 PM	Balagon11, IMO, some not so great advice here for new players. Don't cheat new players by making them second level, by asking them to play different characters, etc. My advice... 1. Let them play the rogue and necromancer. 2. Give them some help in the form of an NPC and some equipment for next next few levels. Say, a 2nd-level bard (with healing) hires the PCs to help him find some grave robbers. The bard is from a wealthy family and gives the PCs some tanglefoot bags and a couple potions of cure light wounds. 2. Lower the EL of any combats. Pick fewer combatants, weaker foes, or make it likely that the PCs will gain surprise or pick those likely fairly suseptable to the PCs. Try slightly fewer combats -- more puzzles, roleplaying, stealth type missions, etc. or ones which can be overcome without direct fighting -- such as freeing an orc in a goblin den who will happily kill the goblin leader for them. 3. Have NPCs give advice. For example, the bard will suggest not doing frontal assaults. 4. Give them some extra XP so they reach 2nd and 3rd-levels quicker. 5. Be generous on potions of curing and/or access to clerics.
Vharuck 09-12-07, 05:30 PM	Actually, this isn't as bad as it looks. I suggest the following: 1) The players approach encounters not head-on but with planning, tactics, and such. This is always nice, but without a beatstick or meatshield type character, it's become a must. However, now the planning and short encounters won't make the fighter feel useless, because there is no fighter. Devising, setting up, and carrying out a plan will be very engaging and difficult enough for these two players to enjoy it. 2) Don't coddle them. If you play to their strengths alone, they'll always win, realize they can't lose, and get bored. Of course, you should avoid throwing about random encounters that are nothing but "Three trolls leap from behind the bushes and swing big clubs at you!" I mean keep the adventures normal, and the players will come up with ways to play upon their strengths. 3) Tell your Rogue to put ranks in Use Magic Item. That way he can use wands and scrolls of healing spells. 4) Don't use a DMPC. Instead, use an NPC ally. The key difference is that DMPCs tend to also be primary characters along with the PCs, while NPCs are secondary characters at best. Not really focused on, they have feelings and aspirations but nobody cares as much. 5) Just thought of this one: in light of one of your players being a necromancer, give that player a skeletal or zombified cohort and an amulet to control it. Maybe the necromancer received this as a gift, or recovered it. In any case, have the undead advance just like a normal character; it can gain levels, learn feats, blah blah blah. Basically, you're adding an NPC fighter but I think this way will be more liked.
Sildatorak 09-12-07, 07:38 PM	They should just have 1 character each. If you decide to add an NPC buddy who accompanies them on adventures, keep the mental stats low, especially Intelligence and Charisma. This will keep the focus off of the brute or band-aid that goes along with them. Personally, I'd let them go it alone. At first, just give them missions where they can take their time and withdraw into town to heal up if need be. This works particularly well if they have been employed by a church of some fashion that will provide them with cheap or free healing while they are on the mission.
Werral 09-12-07, 08:34 PM	I've almost always played with 2 players per session (though the group was around 6-8 people). BW0222's ideas are pretty cool. Also think about, who would hire a rogue and necromancer duo? Some weird shady types is who. Urban encounters, grave-robbing (or anti-grave-robbing), people who don't want to admit they've got undead in the house, the thieves guild needing a joint cased, a taxidermist who wants protection, rat-catchers threatened by dire-rats - a few levels later they find out that the were-rats running the town are behind it. They could also make quite good detectives (not just for the law, but also for the other side). An expert criminal and a guy who (in a few levels time) can talk to the dead? So throw murder mysteries, people who've been framed (maybe the PC's are originally hired to catch the innocent guy). Chuck in a vampire or two in the background, maybe they could be on the run from a vampire till they get powerful enough to confront it. If they wanted to just go around bashing stuff they wouldn't have chosen theses characters, give 'em weird stuff. If the necromancer gets appropriately stealthy they can act as spies/assasins, dealing with evil warlords and bypassing the guards. Remember that overcoming challenges doesn't necessarily mean fighting them. Story XP is your friend.
VulcanStormwrath 09-12-07, 09:24 PM	An illusionist or summoner with a rogue can run an awesome monster slaying/ demon hunting scam.
Another_Poet 09-12-07, 10:21 PM	Starting them at 2nd level is cheating, but handing out free XP to "so they reach 2nd and 3rd levels faster" isn't? The first time I ever played I joined a campaign as a 4th level character. It allowed me to have some cool powers and even use a monster race, which was a blast at the time. There's nothing wrong with starting new characters above L1. AP Balagon11, IMO, some not so great advice here for new players. Don't cheat new players by making them second level, by asking them to play different characters, etc.
PhaedrusXY 09-12-07, 10:35 PM	Actually, this isn't as bad as it looks. I suggest the following: 1) The players approach encounters not head-on but with planning, tactics, and such. This is always nice, but without a beatstick or meatshield type character, it's become a must. However, now the planning and short encounters won't make the fighter feel useless, because there is no fighter. Devising, setting up, and carrying out a plan will be very engaging and difficult enough for these two players to enjoy it. 2) Don't coddle them. If you play to their strengths alone, they'll always win, realize they can't lose, and get bored. Of course, you should avoid throwing about random encounters that are nothing but "Three trolls leap from behind the bushes and swing big clubs at you!" I mean keep the adventures normal, and the players will come up with ways to play upon their strengths. 3) Tell your Rogue to put ranks in Use Magic Item. That way he can use wands and scrolls of healing spells. 4) Don't use a DMPC. Instead, use an NPC ally. The key difference is that DMPCs tend to also be primary characters along with the PCs, while NPCs are secondary characters at best. Not really focused on, they have feelings and aspirations but nobody cares as much. 5) Just thought of this one: in light of one of your players being a necromancer, give that player a skeletal or zombified cohort and an amulet to control it. Maybe the necromancer received this as a gift, or recovered it. In any case, have the undead advance just like a normal character; it can gain levels, learn feats, blah blah blah. Basically, you're adding an NPC fighter but I think this way will be more liked.THIS! (is excellent advice) There is a necromancer variant in Unearthed Arcana, which can also be found in this version of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm), which has a skeletal cohort almost exactly like what you're talking about in #5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#skeletalMin ion).