Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DaveReaves 08-12-05, 03:52 PM	I had originaly posted this in the house rules forum, but it fell off the page after a few days with no replies. I'll try again here and see if I cant get some feedback. In an attempt to reduce the amount of time taken up in a game session by rogues that like to spend time pick pocketing around town, I devised a method to reduce the time taken by such activites, as well as to add some uniformity (but maintain a little randomness) to how much money the rogue manages to get from his nights out. I used the Craft/Profession skills, along with the community modifier (used in the DMG for random city creation) to work up an additional use of Slight of Hand. I have added this to the Slight of Hand skill: You can practice pick pocketing and make a good living, earning about half your check result (+Community modifier) in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. This check is opposed by a Spot check (d20+community modifier), which represents victims noticing you, bystanders noticing you, town guard tracking you down and anything else that may cause you to be found out. For each successful check, add +2 to the Spot check to catch the rogue in that town. This check assumes two hours a night, for seven days in a row. Reduce the amount accordingly (around 15%) for each day less than seven the thief spent. After seven nights of thieving the Spot check goes up by 2 as normal, even if they were not consecutive nights. Why the comunity modifer you ask? The way I figure it, the larger the town, the more likely to get caught. More people means more spot checks, more (and higher level) town guards, people being more conserned about pickpockets, those kinds of things. Those things make it harder for a rogue to get away with it, but if he does, the payoff is better. Let me know where you think it could use some tweaking. Thanks
Polymorph 08-12-05, 04:21 PM	Maleficus the level 20 rogue with a magical enhanced 34 in sleight of hand rolls a 20 and completely rips off the whole city... YAY!! 54 gold!! .... not. So divided by seven this makes about 7 pieces a day.. i can not really see Maleficus' player very impressed. Appearently even the must incredibly skilled rogue can hardly make a living like this. Also the "you earn as much as you roll" doesnt really hit the flavor of the rest of the games rules.
nyysjan 08-12-05, 04:42 PM	you might want to use the amount mentioned in the Perform skill description, and make a one spot check for the town people in general, if he doesn't make it above the spot check, hes toast :D
UltimateReality 08-12-05, 05:02 PM	In an attempt to reduce the amount of time taken up in a game session by rogues that like to spend time pick pocketing around town, I devised a method to reduce the time taken by such activites, as well as to add some uniformity (but maintain a little randomness) to how much money the rogue manages to get from his nights out. The main thing is: do you want to encourage or discourage the rogue's petty pickpocketing, or just get it out of your hair? If you don't care, the perform roll idea would be a really good way to go, IMO. Just have them roll a sleight of hand each day. Still oppose it with a spot check. Perhaps, depending on how much the Spot exceeds the Sleight of Hand, you could have varying degrees of being caught...i.e., "he notices you looking shifty eyed and kicks you out of his store before you have a chance to swipe anything", versus "he grabs you by the wrist and demands his moneypurse back", versus "the town guard coming around the corner blinks suddenly, points at you and, and yells 'Thief! You're under arrest! We've been hearing tales of you all week!'".
Cathon 08-12-05, 06:44 PM	There is not going to be a higher risk of getting caught in a large marketplace, unless you are talking about getting caught by the gang who claims a particular area. People are jostled in the street more often in a large city, everyone is much more anonymous, and there is plenty of room to hide in. Are there more pickpockets in Ann Arbor or in New York City? Which one has more cops per resident do you think? A better way to weight the risk factor would be to ask who they are going to target. Targetting commoners will get you low money for low risk. Targetting merchants will net more money for more risk, targetting PC types is going to be a lot of money, but a whole lot of risk, too. As for what happens when it fails, I'd probably do something like a random encounter list. Most common would be being caught by target either before or after taking the purse, reduced income for the day while running and hiding. Less common would be being seen by the guard, or by a paladin or something. Perhaps make it so how much the check is failed by modifies the results table. Any real confrontation should be played out, of course, and previous bad results may make checks more difficult on future days in the same place.
WCH 08-12-05, 07:24 PM	For pickpocketting it might work, although I'd increase the effect of the community modifier on gold gained, as you could both steal from more people in a day and those people would have more on them. Most rogues I know are more interested in breaking into houses and businesses, however, and the payoff in those cases is far higher than what you'd get for this check.
DaveReaves 08-12-05, 08:08 PM	My overall intent with this was to stop taking hours out of a game session on players who want to go to the most crowded area of town, have the people described in detail, pick a mark, role a check, repeat. It was also a little unbalancing to just award some random amount of gold for a successful attempt. I'm not looking to encourage or discourage using the skill to make money, I just feel its needs a little uniformity. UltimateReality, I like the idea of using a table like perform uses. Don’t know why I didn’t think of that before. Guess that’s the beauty of the free exchange of ideas. I'll look into that as soon as I have my books in front of me and come back. The one thing I really want to keep is that the more money you’re likely to make means taking a higher risk of being caught. I'm also liking that more money is to be had in larger towns. Larger towns though mean more people, and as has been pointed out, large crowds are a pick pocket's best friend. So the large crowd means lower risk but more people means higher money but more money means more risk... I need to lie down for a while. Like I said, I'll try again with a design like the perform skill instead of profession and be back sometime before sunrise. Thanks for the help.
DaveReaves 08-13-05, 02:45 AM	All right, I think I like this. The more money at stake, the higher the DC. It also allows some decision as to what kind of target the thief hits. Let me know what you think. ADDED TO SLIGHT OF HAND SKILL DC Theft 10 Pick pockets in a crowded area. Markets or festivals provide a large number of people, but they mostly peasants. This takes 5 minutes and provides 1d10 silver per attempt. 15 Aim for the rich folk. Same as above, but aiming for wealthy looking targets. This takes 10 minutes and provides 1d10 gold per attempt. 20* Home invasion. Sneaking into someone's home is quite dangerous but can really pay off. A typical home provides 3d10 gold worth of cash and mundane items. It takes 25 minutes to break in, search, and remove items of value. 25* Breaking an entering. Shops, offices and other establishments open to the public offer a good target for a thief. It takes 30 minutes to enter, search and remove valuables from such an establishment. A public establishment offers 6d10 gold worth of cash and mundane items. Additionally, the thief can take as many items as he can carry from the inventory items in stock. 30* Named houses, palaces and other places owned by the extremely wealthy. Usually wrought with guards and anti-theft devices, these marks are best left to professionals. It takes 40 minutes to break in, search, collect items of value and leave. This provides 8d10 gold pieces in cash and mundane items. * To attempt this action, a Hide check with the same DC is required to enter unnoticed. A failed hide check means automatic failure, but because the character was only caught "snooping around" he would not be charged with stealing. MODIFIERS: +1 DC for each successful action of any kind in one day. +2 DC for each successful attempt of the same action in one week. +4 DC for each successful attempt of the same action in one day. +6 DC if you have been caught snooping around in the past week. (Someone’s keeping an eye on you) +8 DC if you have been caught within stealing in the past month. (They are watching you like a hawk) Now Maleficus can spend 20 minutes in the market and make 2d10 gold, open a window of some guys house and come out with 3d10 gold, hit a store and pull 6d10, then at dusk go to the mayor's house and bad another 8d10. 19d10 gold (between 19 and 190 gold) and all for just shy of two hours worth or work. That sounds a little better for a days worth of thieving for our master thief who never had a chance to fail a check all day. Let me know what you think. Thanks again.
thom2075 08-13-05, 03:21 AM	Maleficus the level 20 rogue with a magical enhanced 34 in sleight of hand rolls a 20 and completely rips off the whole city... YAY!! 54 gold!! .... not. So divided by seven this makes about 7 pieces a day.. i can not really see Maleficus' player very impressed. Appearently even the must incredibly skilled rogue can hardly make a living like this. Also the "you earn as much as you roll" doesnt really hit the flavor of the rest of the games rules. Heh, that's why 20th level rogues run thieve's guilds with armies of urchins doing the lowly pick pocketing. Unless you're talking pick pocketing the jewels off the nobles at the grand ball, I don't think a 20th level rogue would bother, mainly because, just as you said, there's no money in it. I like the house rule, I think I'll use it next time my havoc happy rogue wants to run amok in town.
Cantankerous 08-13-05, 07:20 AM	If the character is doing this for a living, simply use the Profession skill as your dictator. If THEY want to RP it, be sure to get their desire in writing from them first ;) and then set up a time when they can come seperately from the group and solo adventure it. Sure, they'll pick alot of pockets, and get alot of lint, a few brass coins, a copper or so and maybe a silver or two if they have a good night... unless they are trying to go for wealthy looking people... which may well have some subtle means of protection for their wealth. Cause and consequence time. If it's really so easy to get your pockets picked, won't you, as a wealthy person, use extrodinary means to keep it from happening? Maybe a very minor magical item; like Rouches Screaming Purse that has a permenant Alarm spell on it. *At a full bellow* "Guards! Guards! Guards! I'm being MURDERED!" when the silly PC tries to slit it. Even less wealthy folk might well use the old Arabic solution of lining their coin purses with fine but strong strands of copper wire, making them very hard to slit (and adding a +10 circumstance penalty for the wire lined purse or a +30 one for the "Alarm"ed purse. Add guardsmen to the mix, stir liberally and let to simmer. Isshia
FriendoftheDork 08-13-05, 08:05 AM	All right, I think I like this. The more money at stake, the higher the DC. It also allows some decision as to what kind of target the thief hits. Let me know what you think. ADDED TO SLIGHT OF HAND SKILL DC Theft 10 Pick pockets in a crowded area. Markets or festivals provide a large number of people, but they mostly peasants. This takes 5 minutes and provides 1d10 silver per attempt. 15 Aim for the rich folk. Same as above, but aiming for wealthy looking targets. This takes 10 minutes and provides 1d10 gold per attempt. 20* Home invasion. Sneaking into someone's home is quite dangerous but can really pay off. A typical home provides 3d10 gold worth of cash and mundane items. It takes 25 minutes to break in, search, and remove items of value. 25* Breaking an entering. Shops, offices and other establishments open to the public offer a good target for a thief. It takes 30 minutes to enter, search and remove valuables from such an establishment. A public establishment offers 6d10 gold worth of cash and mundane items. Additionally, the thief can take as many items as he can carry from the inventory items in stock. 30* Named houses, palaces and other places owned by the extremely wealthy. Usually wrought with guards and anti-theft devices, these marks are best left to professionals. It takes 40 minutes to break in, search, collect items of value and leave. This provides 8d10 gold pieces in cash and mundane items. * To attempt this action, a Hide check with the same DC is required to enter unnoticed. A failed hide check means automatic failure, but because the character was only caught "snooping around" he would not be charged with stealing. MODIFIERS: +1 DC for each successful action of any kind in one day. +2 DC for each successful attempt of the same action in one week. +4 DC for each successful attempt of the same action in one day. +6 DC if you have been caught snooping around in the past week. (Someone’s keeping an eye on you) +8 DC if you have been caught within stealing in the past month. (They are watching you like a hawk) Now Maleficus can spend 20 minutes in the market and make 2d10 gold, open a window of some guys house and come out with 3d10 gold, hit a store and pull 6d10, then at dusk go to the mayor's house and bad another 8d10. 19d10 gold (between 19 and 190 gold) and all for just shy of two hours worth or work. That sounds a little better for a days worth of thieving for our master thief who never had a chance to fail a check all day. Let me know what you think. Thanks again. Ouch, this house rule actually seems unbalanced... I mean 1d10 SP for 5 minutes? Hell a common laborer earns about 2 sp per day! And that's at least 8 hours! Sure sleight of hand requires skill and incorporates risk, but this seems too much. I doubt any pickpocket could attempt a check every 5 minutes anyway, I'd think he would only get 1d6 attempts per hours possibly. You don't pickpocket random people, you go after the ones with money and less aware... preferably turists. Also I would not do single rolls for burglary and grand theft, those can be adventures in themselves. if mr. rogue wants to do that he probably won't have time for regular adventuring and should leave the group. of course if the party wants in then no problem! ;) Also another time issue is preperation, you don't just walk into a manor and loot the place without a plan, or you're sure to get caught. Also why lower the DC? Base pickpocket DC is 20, and that doesen't guarantee not being detected. DC 10 is childs play, anyone with 1 rank can do it. Pickpocket is supposed to be a hard skill, or everyone would do it. Here's my suggestion: ADDED TO SLIGHT OF HAND SKILL DC Theft 20 Pick pockets in a crowded area. Markets or festivals provide a large number of people, but they mostly peasants. This takes 30 minutes and provides 1d6 silver and 4d6 copper per attempt. 25 Aim for the rich folk. Same as above, but aiming for wealthy looking targets. This takes 60 minutes and provides 1d10 gold and 4d6 silver per attempt. per attempt. MODIFIERS: +1 DC for each successful action of any kind in one day. +2 DC for each successful attempt of the same action in one week. +4 DC for each successful attempt of the same action in one day. +6 DC if you have been caught snooping around in the past week. (Someone’s keeping an eye on you) +8 DC if you have been caught within stealing in the past month. (They are watching you like a hawk) Also, a natural 1 means automatic discovery, while a modifed result of 10 or less means someone has detected you. Saves the DMs for alot of opposed spot checks ;) I would never use sleight of hand for burglaries, those requires a whole bundle of skills, plans, resources. And yes this means that good thieves stop being pickpockets as it's not worth it in the long run. Crime doesen't pay, organized crime does! Also by your rules there is no need for rogues do risk their lives in a dungeon when they will get alot more from stealing in a city. Bad!
DogOnWheels 08-13-05, 11:27 AM	Maleficus the level 20 rogue with a magical enhanced 34 in sleight of hand rolls a 20 and completely rips off the whole city... YAY!! 54 gold!! .... not. So divided by seven this makes about 7 pieces a day.. i can not really see Maleficus' player very impressed. Appearently even the must incredibly skilled rogue can hardly make a living like this. Also the "you earn as much as you roll" doesnt really hit the flavor of the rest of the games rules. Yeah, diminishing returns, but what is a 20th level rogue doing picking pockets anyway; trying to stay in touch w/ his humble beginnings? Try the crown jewels or something... Yeah, I like this idea, I can see all of the other PCs eyes roll when Damian, the rogue, wants to spend time lifting pouches or finding a job tending bar; so this'll save us all some time...
RogerWilco 08-13-05, 03:55 PM	If a rogue is out on the roofs during the night, he/she'll be sleepy next day. I suggest a -1 or -2 CON penalty for every night the rogue's been at it Maybe have the DC go up by 1 for every 10 gp looted in the town in the last month. I like a lot of the ideas, but they probably need some balancing.