Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Karsus 09-19-06, 02:56 PM	-Lemme sum up what happened during my last gaming session: There was an assassination attempt on a visiting lord. The PCs were the only ones who happened to see the "Mysterious Black Clad Man" who was on the roof with a crossbow. They gave chase, but the assassin eventually opened a Dimension Door, hopped through it, and vanished to elsewhere. -The PCs gave their statements to the city watch, and were eventually taken to the headquarters of the city watch, where each PC met with the captain of the guard. The Captain "interrogated" each PC, and then kept them "under arrest" until the final witness was done talking. -The Captain then spoke with the entire party. He told them that no other witnesses mentioned a " Mysterious Black Clad Man". The other witnesses only saw the PCs running from the scene of the crime. But, the Captain said, since there was a Paladin and a Cleric of Torm in the group, he would envoke an ancient law. The group would have 24 hours to find evidence to prove their innocence, rather than being jailed until trial. -After being released, all but one of the PCs traveled to the dock ward of the city, unfolded their Unfolding Boat and sailed into the ocean, without a destination, a map, food, or skill points in ship sailing. -Obviously, I was somewhat angered, because the party was misbehaving, for the most part. For example, the Cleric of Torm wanted to attack the High Abbot of Torm, because she felt he was a heretic of abiding to the laws of the city, which he said were just as important as the laws of Torm. She also wanted to attack the Captain of the guard, who she said was corrupt, though no evidence was ever presented. -Should I reward the players for being bad, and simply continue with the campaign now on the water, instead of showing them my displeasure by having their characters die on the high seas, like they really should? And, what should I do with the one character who did what she was supposed to do, who is now entirely cut off from all of the other PCs?
Bruunwald 09-19-06, 03:18 PM	Firstly, it's not your job to punish the players or their characters. It's your job to present a fun and intriguing adventure for them to interact with. Yes, I understand how frustrating it can be when the players decide that they want to follow their whims rather than my well-thought-out adventure hooks. But that's just the nature of the beast, and we must suck it up and continue on. That said, it is your job to play the people who want to punish the PCs. In this case, that ought to be mean that the Captain of the Guard now is convinced of the party's guilt and sends hunters out after them. Stay in focus, keep to the world, rather than your own personal bile, and you'll see that the D&D game itself tends to sort out the balance of things, so long as you play realistically and fairly. In other words: be fair and honest and watch the world punish them naturally. Meanwhile, try to see this from the players' point of view. Yes, at times, scenarios that lock you into a deadline can be fun. Other times, they just feel like railroading. Obviously, your group was in the latter frame of mind. they had just done the right thing by chasing down an unknown assailant. Now suddenly, they're in trouble and being railroaded into a plot with a time limit on it. Surely you can see how they might have thought this unfair or frustrating?
Deekin 09-19-06, 03:19 PM	Have Torm smite the ship becouse the players disobayed the gm! J/k What is out on the ocean? where will the PC's end up? I'm Suprised that you didn't anticipate the running like scared rabbits.
chaotic_easy_going 09-19-06, 03:44 PM	... That said, it is your job to play the people who want to punish the PCs. In this case, that ought to be mean that the Captain of the Guard now is convinced of the party's guilt and sends hunters out after them. Stay in focus, keep to the world, rather than your own personal bile, and you'll see that the D&D game itself tends to sort out the balance of things, so long as you play realistically and fairly. In other words: be fair and honest and watch the world punish them naturally. ... they had just done the right thing by chasing down an unknown assailant. Now suddenly, they're in trouble and being railroaded into a plot with a time limit on it. Surely you can see how they might have thought this unfair or frustrating? Ture - but it's also his job to play the environment. If the PCs have no sailing skill and no supplies should they not suffer some of the consequences of this decision? If you create an environment with treacherous ice ledges and the PCs leave the ropes at home then engage in foot races someone is -and should- fall. You're not obliged to put convienent ledges every 10 feet. :) The same is true with the bizare actions, like slaying a city guard just because he thinks they might be the killers. If they do that they have an entire police force or army after them and maybe an alignment change as well. At some point the PCs need to be reminded that they are not immortal and they're not above the law. Unless... they're umm... immortal. Dang high level campaigns! :P However, having said that I do agree with the quoted poster when he mentions that you should leave you personal anger/frustration out of the game. They likely didn't 'set out' to ruin your carefully crafted narative and I can see how they might feel pressured by the strange events and strict timeline. Your narrative should adapt to reflect their choices. In this case I'd give serious thought about what might happen to them on the ocean and whether killing them is really worthwhile. Are there frequent trade routes they might encounter? A mysterious island where a wizard's guild makes dimension door scrolls for sale on the black market? A powerful sea creature they can befriend/fight/bargain with - a tribute of a magic weapon or 2 for a tow back to shore would penalize the characters and make them think twice before jumping and expecting a soft "ledge" but it would keep the game moving. That's my 2 cents! Thanks. ~ CEG
albinomonkeyking 09-19-06, 03:48 PM	Well, I wouldn't punish them........but let me see if I have this right, wait, yes, they did sail with no sailing skills map or food. Well, they kinda punished themselves didn't they? In all seriousness, I would leave them to rot. I would let them float for a few days, then I would make a series of rolls. These are by my dreaded 'fate die'. My players know that luck plays a factor into everything, so, when they ask, "Shouldn't a boat come by?" If i simply say no, they will get angry and argue logic, "There wouldn't be a boat come by, but-(then a 50 minute argument about nothing ensues) I solve this by the fate die. 2d10, a percentage roll. My players seem to enjoy it because luck plays into most of the things they do. So as I said, you won't exactly be responsible if the fate die determines they die. For example: They leave the docks, they are still fairly close to the coast (day 1) If they are looking for a boat, lets say there is a...75% chance a boat will be in hailing distance. (arbitrary number, simply one based off of how many boats come to the port and if there is a route they all follow) if you get within the range, they can climb aboard a boat and to safety before death, if not, we continue to the next day, and so forth. This is simply how I would handle it, but, using this system (and whatever % you make up) there is a decent chance that they get saved. So, going off of that, just like Bruunwald said, let their actions determine what follows. The man in black escapes to pursue his plan while they begin being chased by bounty hunters and law officials. At this point in the game it could either turn very evil, or into a race to redeem themselves. They could kill an official or guard and now their bounty is raised and more people are after them, while the only way to clear their names is to capture the man in black, or something like that. Anyway, good luck!
Finarin Panjoro 09-19-06, 04:34 PM	I would have the man in black impersonate one of the PCs (assuming he saw them as well) and then successfully kill his original target. Now the PCs have been deliberately framed. The law will come looking for them and it may motivate them to hunt down the man in black to get even with him. I would allow them to escape on the seas though if they really want too. As far as the player who stayed behind I think you're going to have to have a talk with him or her as to what they want to do. Its a party based game and he/she isn't with the party anymore. It might be time for a new character. You could then have that character become an npc in the town whose trying to find the man in black and could aid the PCs if they ever return.
ccerose 09-19-06, 04:55 PM	The one player who stayed behind is pretty much screwed if the adventure continues on the ocean. However, all is not lost. You could have them out at sea. Without food or water for several days, they would become extremely fatigued and no match for an encounter. You could have a ship sail past them, but make it a galleon belonging to the city militia that gathers up the PCs and returns them to port and then prison. This will at least get the party back together. You could also run a short series of encounters for the one PC who stayed behind that allows him/her to uncover some clues that offer some level of proof that it was someone other than the PCs who made the assassination attempt. Since it was only the PCs who spotted this mysterious black clad man, the captain of the watch may change his tune and request the assistance of the PCs in the investigation and apprehension of the said perpetrator. The PCs may say no, which is fine, but they may also say yes, which will lead them to the adventure you prepared without railroading them into it.
X-Codes 09-19-06, 05:03 PM	A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. This group no longer has a Paladin. Salvation may be found through service. Every failure of duty diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster. Strive to maintain law and order. Obey masters with alert judgment and anticipation. Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals. Bring painful, quick death to traitors. Question unjust laws by suggesting improvement or alternatives, not additional laws. Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerun. This group no longer has a Cleric. Of course, if the Paladin or Cleric was the one who stayed behind, then they still have their abilities. If not, they lose them. I say this split is more or less permanent. Run a solo game with the one who stayed behind to try and find the black-robed man. For the rest of the party, have them crash on a savage island sans divine powers. If they can survive then they can be rewarded with their characters not dying. If not, have them roll up a new party that the solo player gathers around himself. EDIT: As for what the assassin should do, Finarin Panjoro has a great idea.
lears_fool 09-19-06, 05:09 PM	By writing this bit I'm assuming you already hit on the 'subtle hints' the DM can give to make it clear that the next stage of the adventure is in the city and not the boat. If all things were neutral, I'd say find a hook to tie the others together and shift the campaign. However, it appears not only did the players act a bit petulantly in wandering off into the wide blue yonder but also at least one was really pushing it from an RP standpoint (wanting to kill a priest because they were questioned, albeit somewhat unfairly) You've apparently lost the whole 'clear your names' reasoning behind things, and also split the party. To fix it, I'd reward the guy who stayed behind. How? Let his PC stay behind and become an important NPC (who cleared his name perhaps despite his friends bolting), and then go ahead and have the other PCs shipwreck somewhere (it IS bound to happen). And there start your new adventure, with the guy who stayed behind joining as a new character with a couple of extra spiffy magic items and experience.
Lord_Varos 09-19-06, 05:28 PM	Here's my advice (warning: I am feeling a shift toward fascist DMing): Roll a couple of d100's, check your notes a few times, and declare that the PCs who went sailing into stupidity in fact starved until they passed out (because we all know that, by the RAW, you can't starve to death in D&D). Then the ship fell into disrepair and they died sinking into the depths. "Roll up new characters." The player who did what he really should have will, of course, continue as planned. Maybe, just maybe, he will find some new companions who won't be as silly and stupid, although they'll probably be a level or two lower than his previous companions.
Tiefling_Warlock 09-19-06, 05:44 PM	I would have the PCs who ran starve (using starving rules, not death) then if if they dont go to land, die of starvation. You should give them a chance to live, something like "After X days of sailing you get hungry, taking X points of ability damage, you see land nearby. Then days later after they go on land have them fight in thier weakened state, nothing too hard though. Then have them meet up with the other PC who was released because the Captain belived that he was innocent (due to the fact that his mates ran and he didn't) and have him meet up with the other PCs if you can without railroading.
Necrosis 09-19-06, 05:58 PM	Well this is wonderfull roleplayign situation-I love its posibilites They are lost on the high seas :)-give em a helping hand with some weather-role for wind strength if its high they get blown out to sea. The paladin and cleric may be in for some strife, Cleric might loses all of her high level spells till she can can atone(might not be as hefty as the highlevel version, more a middle of the road medium level atonement act required) try limiting her to 1st and second level or cantrips only - depends is the abbot really a heretic:)? Fianlly they are on the run from the law, all sorts of intrestign things could be contracted to hunt em down from galleys to mercenery groups of xill. P.S. if you need a place for them to ship wreck on if htey succesfully escape try the isle of dread module-just advance the bad guys ot match the level.
Reversefigure4 09-19-06, 06:39 PM	Actually, I'm somewhat with the PCs here. There doesn't appear to be any evidence that the PCs tried to kill the lord beyond a single witness that saw the PCs running. That's not really a lot of evidence, considering that the witnesses statement ALSO matches the PCs (they were running, chasing after the Man in Black), and the possibility that the single witness might be lying. Surely the lord himself, if the attempt failed, is still alive to identify that the PCs were NOT his attackers? In a city that was willing to lock me up on that small an amount of evidence, I'd be worried about the trial too. The church doesn't want to help the cleric, the Guard Captain is prepared to try the PCs on minimal evidence (he might well be corrupt)... what are the chances that in an attempt to find the evidence (it's not like they have anything to go on - a man in black that nobody else saw!) the PCs will just make the situation worse and end up being arrested for something else? All things considered, running away from this crazy city and it's dangerous form of justice is a perfectly viable option. Not the only or the best option, but certainly an option. Now, if they can't sail, they'll either get lost and die, or shipwreck (since you don't want a TPK, it's shipwreck time). I'd advise telling the other player, the one that stayed ashore, that you'll be running this shipwreck scenario for a session or two, and give him an NPC or a new character to play temporarily. Have them eventually hook back up with the main PC - who, surprise, surprise, has proven his innocence in spectacular fashion and helped protect the lord, and as a result has gotten some nice XP and loot out of it.
Tichrimo 09-19-06, 08:26 PM	First, a solution for the stranded character -- the 24 hours expires, she dutifully returns to face the judgement, and is judged innocent since she came back. A warrant/bounty/reward is posted for the remainder of the party. Suitably cheesed off at her former cohorts, she scares up a tracker to help her find them. In the mean time, the PC's with no clue how to pilot the ship should have had a harrowing couple of days at sea, followed by an undignified shipwreck a few miles down the coastline. The party is reunited, they're off the railroad tracks, and wanted. One witness (the tracker) to be dealt with, some intra-party strife to resolve, and otherwise they're off to the next (mis)adventure.
Dag 09-19-06, 09:06 PM	You'll need to have a chat with the sole player who lawfully and honorably stayed behind to clear his or her name. Either arrange for a solo session or tell him or her what happens in the next 24 hours, my take on it would be something along the lines of: You right away begin the search; according to the ancient law you do not have to find the man in black, only to prove that he was where you said he was and get some evidence to varify your story. Plenty of people in the crowd saw your party running and wrongly assumed you to be a part of the assassination attempt, but as word got around and they found out who you were (The heroes who saved the town from Yadda yadda, or the heroes who donated such and such to so and so) the public opinion began to shift in your favor, even though rumors of the rest of your party grew louder, the public began championing your cause seeing you as an honorable figure willing to risk a jail sentence to prove your name. So, even though you lack the skills to gather the evidence you need you receive scores of volunteers who know you to be a good person steping forward. Local trackers eagerly volunteer their time to accompany you to the rooftops where the mystery assassin was spotted and they uncover a shred of black cloth caught on a nail, or a discarded, black fletched crossbow bolt wedged between two shingles...The people who dwell in those houses come forward, telling the officials that they did, indeed hear footsteps upon their roof during the stated time yesterday. Etc... In other words he or she is able to prove her innocence, and any lacking skills needed to do so are available by a friendly community who have taken this PC into their hearts (Of course they probably assume the other PCs are cowardly jack asses). Playing it out in a solo session would be a great opportunity for this player and a great reward for doing the right thing, but the end results are a fitting reward in themselves. As for the players who left? I agree with other posters, if you want to strand them or run a series of sessions surrounding their time as fugitives go for it and let the player whose character stayed behind make up a temporary character until they return. I like the idea of them eventually being saved (from an island or from their drifting little boat) and brought back to the city they fled from. They will find that their names have been cleared of the assassination attempt but they still have a jail term to serve for the law they did break (That ancient law that gave them 24 hours to clear themselves). Naturally the jail time wont be as long or as severe as it would have been for the assassination, so they can rot in jail during a fitting place for some down time. Now the player who stayed behind can accomplish something with her downtime, buying new goods, having magical items made, or scribing spells.... And he or she may even get a discount on such things because he or she has become the darling of the city. The other players get no benefits from the down time, save to have the chance to better get to know rats, roaches and prison food. Plus their reputations take a hit in the town who no longer view them as heroes, but as cowards who had long worn the mantle of heroes. People don't like such figures. Now you can put the campaign back on track, if your initial plan was for them to hunt down the assassin then get them back on it, perhaps during their prison time some fresh leads have come up. Perhaps the temple of Torm has done some divining (for the honorable PC who stayed behind, not for the fallen cleric of Torm) to get some information. Of course I would leave avenues for the rest of the party to redeem themselves, to regain their reputations and to make things right with their religions and morals (atonement and forgiveness from the churches of Torm and the paladin's organization). Of course they might grow bitter and angry towards the town during their lock up, maybe a few random citizens who manage to visit them, or get letters through, hero worshipping youths who still believe in the characters and cant wait for them to get out and show them all that you really are the hero they used to think you are and such...Of course if they manage to evade capture and through some great plan or turn of events do not get caught then don't begrudge them that. I would think that in time the need to atone for this misdeed should drive the Paladin and the Torm cleric back to this city to put things to right eventually. Anyways, just my verbose and on the fly two cents about how I'd handle the situation. Have fun and let us know what becomes of this group and how you handle it.
Lord Karsus 09-19-06, 11:20 PM	-Well, I certainly have taken much of what was said into consideration. -As for the lone character who stayed behind (The samurai of the group)- I spoke with the player behind-the-scenes, and she agreed to lave the status of her character in limbo. Before I began the campaign, I actually shared the details of the game with this player, who is my sister. She agreed to not reveal anything, and I wanted the honest criticism from someone within the circle of players. We decided that her character suceeded in clearing her name, is going to be bumped up two levels, and will continue living in the city as an NPC. In the meanwhile, she will be making a new character to have join the rest of the party. -Now, as for the Cleric and the Paladin. They originally came to the city because Torm was sending dreams to the Cleric. The Paladin went with her as an escort. Obviously, the Cleric has failed her test, and will not be recieving any spells until she redeems herself in the eyes of her deity. Same goes for the Paladin, who hasn't got any spells yet, but won't be able to cast them when he does get the ability to use them until he atones himself as well. Players won't be happy, but that's how it goes... -I like the idea of shipwrecking. I was actually thinking something a little different. There actually is an island within some proxemity that is ruled by "civilized" Goblinoids. I was thinking that after a day or two of sailing in no particular direction, a goblinoid warship or two appears and captures that PCs and forces them into slavery. Or, alternativley, they could shipwreck on that island, but the party has been itching for some combat, so perhaps I could endulge them a bit. -But, I have a week to toss around ideas. I thank everyone who has contributed thus far, and I am still soliciting more advice.
Necrosis 09-19-06, 11:59 PM	if you have an old copy-they isle dread is an excellett place to wash em up on during a storm (if they are high level, drop them on the northen part of the island). Lots of copies of this module will be on sale on ebay, they where mass distrubitted with the core rule books 20 years ago) the ilse of dread is divided into 3 or 4 encounter areas, the 4 areas are -nothern area, lots nasties, some very nast mega predators -central plataeu, even more nasties, unstable earthquaking terrain and high chances of encounters, and an evil temple in center -southern areas-semi civlised and defended by 'natives' -middle terrain, some nasties, but generally not to bad. P.S. this is a good backup if you role an extreme weather event that blows them a long way from home. The ilse of dread is much like kongs island from the modern king kong movie.
Myree 09-20-06, 12:33 AM	Some pretty good ideas here already, so I'm hesitant to even attempt to muddle more than the usual "I agree with...." But, I'll try how I would approach it (repeating previous with my own spin as needed, sorry) and see if it helps at all. First, reward the loner with a quick solo along the lines you wanted everyone to follow anyway (not the whole shebang yet, in case the rest start seeing the light). But make sure s/he feels that it is a reward. Also have a discussion on what they think they would probably do if (a) the rest make it back to shore before the deadline, and/or (b) they make it back, but a little to late... Letting that player get involved with a little of the "off-the-cuff" redesign of the adventure might also be considered a great benefit/subtle revenge at being left holding the bag. Next, drop a few divine inspirations on any paladin and cleric that might be on that boat ("you suddenly see a vision of your holy symbol covered with a dark shadow and the feeling comes over you that you have gone completely against the tenets of your faith -- you almost feel the darkest of the world clawing down your throat..." kinda thing). And if the ship is still sailing, I really like that idea of the patrol boat or flying watchman stopping by to make sure that they are only out there checking on clues, since the "don't leave town" order is still in effect. A geas or cursed item placed on them unknowlingly before they left might also come in handy, but now you really are railroading them! But, if you can manage to get them back on that shore before the sun sets the next day, it would be a good time to have them run into the really ticked off loner and the rewards and clues s/he has managed to accumulate. And if they are in that "day late" catagory, pull out whatever you and the PC came up with for this situation... some possibilities I can think of would be: - Busts them outta prison - S/he cleared their name too and holds it over their heads - Turns out the loner was in cohoots with the "dark stranger" after all and got them locked up for it - The loner is now a local hero and is lauding it over their heads as they rot away until they can come up with a good way to clear their names (with or without the loner's help) - The loner has mysteriously vanished.... you name it from there
Armorlord 09-21-06, 06:24 PM	You know, without any good rolls, they would have had trouble even getting out of the harbor is they didn't pick up any supplies- including oars. I'd wager the one left behind was the Paladin, and I'd agree about rewarding him somehow, if can manage to run an adventure with just him to gather evidence to clear thier names that would be even better, exp and possible reward for staying behind when his fellows fled. Local hero sort of stuff they tell to inspire future paladins, while the rest of the party is derided as cowards and such in that city/area. If they manage to get clear of the harbor and hit the seas, I'd run with the lost/starving/idiots idea. Perhaps have them get picked up by a merchant ship heading to the city they left after a few days- see if they try to take over the ship/force the captain to take them elsewhere, or return. If you can't run something with the paladin alone, prehaps you can punish them differently, run the game for the paladin, and every once in a while ask them to make a profession-sailor check, maybe a random encounter with a water beastie if they get too bored. This method is somewhat mean OOCly though, and shouldn't be used if people are prone to complaining in annoying ways or storming out. Most other suggestions here cover things I would suggest and a few I wouldn't have, so I've not much else to say- Just remember for everyone, including you, to have fun!
Lord Karsus 09-22-06, 12:36 PM	You know, without any good rolls, they would have had trouble even getting out of the harbor is they didn't pick up any supplies- including oars. -It was a magical item that they had- the Unfolding Boat . Don't remember if it's in the DMG or not, but in a few campaigns I was in, these items were used. Basically, it is a small boat that can be folded. Think The Jetsons. I'd wager the one left behind was the Paladin, and I'd agree about rewarding him somehow, if can manage to run an adventure with just him to gather evidence to clear thier names that would be even better, exp and possible reward for staying behind when his fellows fled. Local hero sort of stuff they tell to inspire future paladins, while the rest of the party is derided as cowards and such in that city/area. -No, it was the party's Samurai who stayed behind. The Paladin left with the others. If they manage to get clear of the harbor and hit the seas, I'd run with the lost/starving/idiots idea. Perhaps have them get picked up by a merchant ship heading to the city they left after a few days- see if they try to take over the ship/force the captain to take them elsewhere, or return. -I am actually leaning towards encountering a pirate vessel once they get out to sea a little further. I might then have some kind of aquatic monster attack the pirate vessel, stranding the party, and perhaps a pirate or two, on an deserted island. Just remember for everyone, including you, to have fun! -Well, it's hard to do that with players who insist on derailing things. But, I'm trying, I'm trying...
Sulaco 09-22-06, 12:54 PM	Should I reward the players for being bad, and simply continue with the campaign now on the water, instead of showing them my displeasure by having their characters die on the high seas, like they really should? And, what should I do with the one character who did what she was supposed to do, who is now entirely cut off from all of the other PCs? Bad situation. You should not kill them all off cos of your "displeasure." Why did they run away and leave one of their group behind? That is BS behaviour IMO. If it were me I would likely say to the remaining PC's player: "You watch your supposed "friends" sail off into the night, never to be seen again. Now do you want to try to track down some evidence while everyone else roll's up new PCs?" After the resultant uproar I would calmly explain: "You guys know sod-all about sailing and are probably gonna die really fast out there. Maybe we can play that out another time but right now I'm not going to frack around with a split party. You guys took off and abandoned CHARACTER X and he/she still has some important info to try to track down to save his/her life, so any time you're ready with your new PCs you can join in. Now CHARACTER X, lets see if you can find that assassin…" Most groups I know will say "FINE! We turn around and go back!" If they want to turn around then I will let them, though they will still have to deal with the repercussions of having abandoned a supposed friend and possibly also for acting blatantly in violation of their alignments and the law. If they want to keep going, make new PCs, and deal with the ship stuff later I will also let them, but I don't have nearly enough D&D playing-time in my life now to fart around with nonsense like this anymore.
Lord Karsus 09-22-06, 01:05 PM	Why did they run away and leave one of their group behind? That is BS behaviour IMO. If it were me I would likely say to the remaining PC's player: "You watch your supposed "friends" sail off into the night, never to be seen again. Now do you want to try to track down some evidence while everyone else roll's up new PCs?" -The campaign actually just began, and chasing the assassin down was supposed to be the thing that made the group into a group. Before they were all interrogated, only two of the five characters actually knew each other. As they tracked down the assassin, they were supposed to become a "band of brothers/sisters." After the resultant uproar I would calmly explain: "You guys know sod-all about sailing and are probably gonna die really fast out there. Maybe we can play that out another time but right now I'm not going to frack around with a split party. You guys took off and abandoned CHARACTER X and he/she still has some important info to try to track down to save his/her life, so any time you're ready with your new PCs you can join in. Now CHARACTER X, lets see if you can find that assassin…" -This is what I was doing at first. I was playing solely with the character who stayed behind, for about 45 minutes, while other others sat around, knit, napped, or just simply went upstairs to do whatever. I am a guest DM, playing at one of the player's house. And, this player happens to be the Cleric of Torm, who was the first to suggest they all leave in the first place. I can't simply ignore all of theose characters, and simply say that they all die (But, this is what I really want to do). I know that if I tell them all to roll up new characters, I will no longer be DMing. The cleric is the wife of a friend, and she is, well, extremely emotional, and any slight fault anyone points out about her or something she does usually results in tears and strained relations. The Paladin is her wife, so though he may agree with things people say about her, he always takes her side. It's just not a fun situation, methinks.
lears_fool 09-22-06, 01:27 PM	Yeah, that doesn't sound like a fun situation. Still, you can turn things to your advantage without being too negative on the fleeing sorts, by instead rewarding the guy who stayed. Do an individual session with him, give him experience and/or items for it. . have him go on a quest for THEM, or perhaps even . . after clearing their names, have him arrange a teleport to their boat (letting you continue as a group) I wouldn't have them encounter anything at ALL while alone, that rewards them for wandering off. Instead give all the action to the good player until they hook up again. They don't LOSE anything save for the time and experience that they would've gained if they'd stayed, and the guy who tried to help the campaign gets nicely rewarded. And perhaps they'll be more likely to not try to be petulant next time in case there's more exp/items to gain. Win-win
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-22-06, 03:30 PM	Okay. The PCs have decided that dealing with a quest that offers them no real reward doesn't suit them, or that the people they are dealing with are really just as threatening as the assassin himself. That's a good call. As for the Paladin and Cleric--they could be executed by these people. This is legitimate authority, but the Paladin's code is not a suicide pact (Well, Gary G. said it wasn't supposed to work that way) and if they fail, they may well be executed anyway--if they can't prove their innocence, and how do they know that they can do that? Dangerous justice rules this city, getting out is a good idea. These people have essentially jumped bail, but no one will know for 24 hours. Now you have a unifying factor--they really hate the town that tried to pin the blame on them, and who wouldn't? Regarding the ship: As long as the weather is calm, its probably a DC 10 to keep everything all right. Allow Survival checks to fish for food. If this is a very calm body of water, they might be able to pull it off. If they have no tools to do the job, they take a -2 on the check. If things get more treacherous, they can always aid another to make a difficult check--if they all pile on a check, they should be able to make a DC 15 with regularity, and if they've got a good person at the helm (high Int score), they could hit 20. DC 20 is sailing in an Ocean gale or with a rough tide. If the PCs can actually hold it toghther this way, you've got a funny and inventive way to start the campaign. As for the Assassin--he doesn't pin the PCs, he doesn't have to. They've already given the town guards a great idea of who's responisble, and if they never catch that lead, so much the better. As for hidden isles and such, its unlikely THIS CLOSE to another city--it would have to be a week away or more for such an isle to remain hidden.
Cold Napalm 09-22-06, 03:43 PM	Umm the boat is a umm BOAT...if they go anywhere they can't be spotted from land, they die, period. If they dont, the guards eventually will track them down and execute them since they are obviously guilty and the samurai wasn't because she stayed behind. They were dumb, kill em. Now if they had a small ship or something, perfectly viable for them to run and even survive with fairly easy checks but high seas on a boat = death. If they dont go that far offshore, they get caught and die. They are dead, write them off and tell to take a ship next time.
Lord Karsus 09-22-06, 05:05 PM	Do an individual session with him, give him experience and/or items for it. . have him go on a quest for THEM, or perhaps even . . after clearing their names, have him arrange a teleport to their boat (letting you continue as a group) -I've already taken care of this. Besides for being bumped up two levels (one for the actual EXP from the adventure, and one for being cooperative), the character was also offered a job as a lieutenant of the City Guard. This at leasts allows the character to have stability, and a reason to stay around the city. Okay. The PCs have decided that dealing with a quest that offers them no real reward doesn't suit them, or that the people they are dealing with are really just as threatening as the assassin himself. That's a good call. -If it were a group of rogues, that would be all fine and dandy. But, the Cleric and Paladin of Torm are duty bound to fight for truth, justice, and the Faerűnian way. Look at what X-Codes added to the discussion towards the beginning of the thread. As for the Paladin and Cleric--they could be executed by these people. This is legitimate authority, but the Paladin's code is not a suicide pact (Well, Gary G. said it wasn't supposed to work that way) and if they fail, they may well be executed anyway--if they can't prove their innocence, and how do they know that they can do that? -The Captain explained that if they could not find evidence to prove their innocence, they would be tried. As the DM, I would not have them executed. I might have them jailed for a little bit, but having a Cleric and Paladin in the mix would have earned them a light sentence, especially with not much evidence to convict them. These people have essentially jumped bail, but no one will know for 24 hours. -Which is the only reason why I let them actually take the boat to the harbor and sail away. For the most part, they were a group of anonymous faces in a big city.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-22-06, 05:32 PM	Well, depending on the punishment is for attempted assassination, that's the charges the PCs would face. Meaner (Evil) societies would undoubtedly kill the PCs. Even more benevolent societies could still go for death, espically if the lord is fairly influential. Sticking around in the city puts the PCs in fear for their lives. They don't know how the lord is going to react, they for sure don't know what the courts would say. And I think that they don't want to find out. How does a Paladin ever get arrested for a crime? If the town is REALLY going to jail a paladin and a cleric of Torm, they don't really understand what they do. I think that feeling is mutual, the PCs don't know that the town won't kill them. Regarding the codes: Well, the city is trying to punish the PCs for something they didn't do and indeed, tried to do everything in their power to resolve. This is neither just nor good. This is, arguably, evil and non-lawful. No one falls. Perhaps Torm has to have a talk with some of the PCs, but lets face it, the state has clearly acted well out of line to try to imprision the good samaratans who tried to help! A bunch of rogues would have just left when the authorities tried to nab them afterward. Your expectations are against human nature--don't mistreat someone and expect them to help you afterward. No, the PCs don't want to help the town, and rightly so! This Campaign is perfectly viable. Switch things around so now the answer becomes real: The Assassin works for the government, and the PCs WOULD HAVE been executed if they had been caught. Then the enemy becomes that from which they fled...
lears_fool 09-22-06, 05:48 PM	How does a Paladin ever get arrested for a crime? If the town is REALLY going to jail a paladin and a cleric of Torm, they don't really understand what they do. I think that feeling is mutual, the PCs don't know that the town won't kill them. Honestly, it's not like people have little magic name tags that say 'John - Level 3 Palladin, Lawful Good' ;) There's nothing wrong with the town (without a detect alignment ability) guard saying 'umm, better safe than sorry' Regarding the codes: Well, the city is trying to punish the PCs for something they didn't do and indeed, tried to do everything in their power to resolve. This is neither just nor good. This is, arguably, evil and non-lawful. Yet very, very, very common. Here in the states we've had many cases of individuals who try to speak out (whistleblowers, anti-corruption politicians, anti-war sorts, etc.) who get called out and often punished because they try to resolve a bad situation. Meanwhile, the whole 'good guy looks bad because of sneaky bad guy' is a pretty serious staple. . partly because it's also quite realistic. If there's a failed assassination attempt and a few people new to town charge out of the building, they do end up looking guilty if either the bad guy's not seen or there's no reason to believe he wasn't just the fastest guy in the party [quoteYour expectations are against human nature--don't mistreat someone and expect them to help you afterward. No, the PCs don't want to help the town, and rightly so![/quote] I disagree there. If there was reason for them to believe that (as it appeared from the original post) they did end up accidentally looking guilty AND they were getting a chance to help prove their innocence and go after the bad guy. . then that's not something a 'good' person would just say 'screw the law' about. If one ends up in prison for defending themselves even though the other guy started it, and they're let off on probation and told they have a court date in a month, most people stay in town.
Lord Karsus 09-22-06, 08:04 PM	Well, depending on the punishment is for attempted assassination, that's the charges the PCs would face. Meaner (Evil) societies would undoubtedly kill the PCs. Even more benevolent societies could still go for death, espically if the lord is fairly influential. -It wouldn't have been a secret, military tribunal, or something equally as imposing. The Captain told the PCs that if they could not find evidence to prove their innocence, they would be put on trial. I even planned that out, should the PCs have failed to find the assassin, even though finding him was fairly straight forward. I also hinted that the Cleric/Paladin in the party would help them in court. And, why would I arbitrarily kill of my own PCs via corporal punishment? Sticking around in the city puts the PCs in fear for their lives. They don't know how the lord is going to react, they for sure don't know what the courts would say. And I think that they don't want to find out. -Regardless, a Paladin and Cleric of Torm do not undermine the law process. How does a Paladin ever get arrested for a crime? If the town is REALLY going to jail a paladin and a cleric of Torm, they don't really understand what they do. I think that feeling is mutual, the PCs don't know that the town won't kill them. -Ever hear of a mafia cop? They're police officers who use their positions as law enforcement officials to aid the Mafia. Ever hear of crooked cops? It happens, sadly, all of the time. Now, why can't a Cleric, or Paladin possibly be corrupt? In the Avatar Trilogy, we see an example of a corrupt Cleric of Torm. A High Priest, even. Being a cop, or a Cleric/Paladin, does not automatically make you immune to the law. Regarding the codes: Well, the city is trying to punish the PCs for something they didn't do and indeed, tried to do everything in their power to resolve. This is neither just nor good. This is, arguably, evil and non-lawful. -Yes, the PCs did do everything in their power to stop the assassin. But, only they know that. The only other witnesses to the crime pointed out that when the Lord was attacked, the PCs were the ones to suddenly start running. Sure, they were chasing the assassin, but no one else could vouch that there was an assassin on the roof. How is being suspicious of the 'people of interest' evil and non-lawful? No one falls. Perhaps Torm has to have a talk with some of the PCs, but lets face it, the state has clearly acted well out of line to try to imprision the good samaratans who tried to help! A bunch of rogues would have just left when the authorities tried to nab them afterward. -The Paladin is going to escape the wrath of Torm, for now. His duty was to protect and guard the Cleric, and he did stay within the bounds of his order. He did, of course, ignore the part of his mantra about doing good, and respecting proper authority. Because of his lack of drive to do anything, a dangerous killer is still on the loose, and can threaten more innocent civilians. -The Cleric is going to lose her clerical abilities, for the time being. The entire reason she came to the city, was because she was guided there in divinely inspired dreams. Why would her deity guide her to this specific city, only to have her simply leave? Your expectations are against human nature--don't mistreat someone and expect them to help you afterward. No, the PCs don't want to help the town, and rightly so! -And how is that, if you don't mind me asking? I don't see that. The Captain of the Guard was going out of his way to invoke this ancient law that would give them a 24-hour grace period in order to gather evidence to prove their innocence. He could have locked them up until their trial, but he understood that they were probably innocent, and he was trying to help them. From his position as Captain of the Guard, the only thing he could really do to help the PCs was allow them to prove their innocence, and he did do this. This Campaign is perfectly viable. Switch things around so now the answer becomes real: The Assassin works for the government, and the PCs WOULD HAVE been executed if they had been caught. Then the enemy becomes that from which they fled... -Well, unfortunatley, that is not going to happen. The Captain of the Guard, the main executive officer of the city, is a faithful Tyrran- Tyr being the deity of justice, magistrates and the law. As a NG NPC, he would not arbitrarily become corrupt.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-22-06, 08:07 PM	Meanwhile, the whole 'good guy looks bad because of sneaky bad guy' is a pretty serious staple. . partly because it's also quite realistic. If there's a failed assassination attempt and a few people new to town charge out of the building, they do end up looking guilty if either the bad guy's not seen or there's no reason to believe he wasn't just the fastest guy in the party. This is very true, it does look geniuely bad for the players. Not disagreeing with that. I disagree there. If there was reason for them to believe that (as it appeared from the original post) they did end up accidentally looking guilty AND they were getting a chance to help prove their innocence and go after the bad guy. . then that's not something a 'good' person would just say 'screw the law' about. Well, this whole thing hinges, really, on what state we are dealing with. In many, perhaps most medieval states, people who attempted to kill a noble get executed. Already, we are looking at a state where the PCs are guilty until proven innocent. Catching the Bad Guy is the right thing to do, but how do you KNOW you can? You can't know that--its even metagame knowledge to make that kind of decison. If you can't open the case (which is the conservative view), you are going to get hit with the penalty. If one ends up in prison for defending themselves even though the other guy started it, and they're let off on probation and told they have a court date in a month, most people stay in town. ...Here in the states we've had many cases of individuals who try to speak out (whistleblowers, anti-corruption politicians, anti-war sorts, etc.) who get called out and often punished because they try to resolve a bad situation. I live in the USA, and I believe that the USA's justice system, while it has some problems (Such as more money means more success) is probably far better than any middle ages judicial system. In the middle ages, execution was the penalty for theft, rape, and many other crimes, and the same principle: Guilty until proven innocent, applied. Now in an LG legal system like America's, this case would be beat: One witness against the defendants, not sufficient testimony, not guilty, case closed. But that's just it, I'm doubting that the courts or the judical system is going to be so benevolent. I don't have a lot of facts on this, but punishing [Probably Harshly] the innocent for this act suggests something malign about the justice in this country. I believe that a Paladin falling, or a Cleric losing favor from their deity, requires an ironclad violation of their code. Lack of Confidence is not lack of honor, it is not denying 'justice', and its not a moral failure. I think the PCs are being short-sighted and cowardly, but they just started the game. They probably aren't really aware of the nuances in the game. They didn't hurt anyone, they didn't cause anyone harm, and somehow they fall? That's needlessly mean--and they won't like it if you pull no punches with them. Paladins Codes are not supposed to be punitive; they are supposed to be RP. Same applies to clerics, otherwise those gods would have almost no followers.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-22-06, 08:42 PM	Alright, I'd like to begin by thanking you for giving me more information on this matter. I think I've been grasping at straws here. Anyhow, lets see. -It wouldn't have been a secret, military tribunal, or something equally as imposing. The Captain told the PCs that if they could not find evidence to prove their innocence, they would be put on trial. I even planned that out, should the PCs have failed to find the assassin, even though finding him was fairly straight forward. I also hinted that the Cleric/Paladin in the party would help them in court. And, why would I arbitrarily kill of my own PCs via corporal punishment?. Okay, a fair trial should exonerate the PCs. I'd point out that you need to look at this more from your PCs point of view. If they don't know that they are getting a fair trial, they are going to be scared. Give them a Knowledge Local check about it. As for killing your own PCs? Mostly its a railroad to a breakout situation, where the PCs need to break out of the prision system and make it to open country. Killing off your old PCs only works if you and they want to make a new party. Ever hear of a mafia cop? They're police officers who use their positions as law enforcement officials to aid the Mafia. Ever hear of crooked cops? It happens, sadly, all of the time. Now, why can't a Cleric, or Paladin possibly be corrupt? Being a cop, or a Cleric/Paladin, does not automatically make you immune to the law. Here's another mistake. Being a double agent to a Paladin Code or a Church is formidable: In D+D, detection abilities are far more capagle than in IRL, and a evil paladin detects. Also, a cleric can't get spells from a deity two steps from her alignment, so that's another hard one. Corrupt Paladins or Clerics get caught quickly, as the means to find them are very good. In FR, with gods all over the place, its probably very simple. How is being suspicious of the 'people of interest' evil and non-lawful? It's not on its own, but closing the book on them would be, and an unfair trial (probably manipulated by someone) that finds them guilty would be NE. The PCs might think that the Assassin is doing this by himself, the government might something to with this. Or maybe, the PCs think that the lord would seek retribution against them. At any rate, the PCs have good reasons to be scared. --The Paladin is going to escape the wrath of Torm, for now. His duty was to protect and guard the Cleric, and he did stay within the bounds of his order. He did, of course, ignore the part of his mantra about doing good, and respecting proper authority. Because of his lack of drive to do anything, a dangerous killer is still on the loose, and can threaten more innocent civilians. -The Cleric is going to lose her clerical abilities, for the time being. The entire reason she came to the city, was because she was guided there in divinely inspired dreams. Why would her deity guide her to this specific city, only to have her simply leave? The Paladin gave it his best shot on the scene, but now he has to worry about both the government and assassin. You OUTRIGHT ASSUME that the paladin can CATCH THE DANGEROUS KILLER. That is not even fair; he certainly doesn't know he can catch him. You really need to see this from his point of view, because you are really missing this. He has got 24 hours to find someone, who may well recognize him on sight. He thinks its unlikely or not possible. Can't speak for Torm. But recognize that gods are far more than people. Their motives and agenda's can easily be complicated and worldspanning. Perhaps Torm wanted her to meet the other PCs? Perhaps Torm wanted her to fight injustice? There are many possibilities. One thing I must insist though. This player just started this game, and you are going to take her powers? This is where you really should cut her some slack, or you'll lose these players. This is very harsh for offenses you've probably never explained [in detail] to the character.
Lord Karsus 09-22-06, 09:06 PM	Okay, a fair trial should exonerate the PCs. I'd point out that you need to look at this more from your PCs point of view. If they don't know that they are getting a fair trial, they are going to be scared. Give them a Knowledge Local check about it. -A trial would have either exonerated them, or landed them a little bit of jail time- it would have really depended on any evidence they gathered, and/or their role-playing performance during the proceedings. And, from their POV, I understand. But, again, this is no behavior for a Cleric and Paladin devoted to peace, justice and law. For anyone else, it's understandable. But, not these two. Here's another mistake. Being a double agent to a Paladin Code or a Church is formidable: In D+D, detection abilities are far more capagle than in IRL, and a evil paladin detects. Also, a cleric can't get spells from a deity two steps from her alignment, so that's another hard one. Corrupt Paladins or Clerics get caught quickly, as the means to find them are very good. In FR, with gods all over the place, its probably very simple. -All this stuff is true. Perhaps I should have had a cleric or wizard/sorcerer around, to cast a Zone of Truth during the interrogation. But, I didn't, and it is too late now- especially with 4 out of 5 of the PCs gone. The Paladin gave it his best shot on the scene, but now he has to worry about both the government and assassin. You OUTRIGHT ASSUME that the paladin can CATCH THE DANGEROUS KILLER. That is not even fair; he certainly doesn't know he can catch him. You really need to see this from his point of view, because you are really missing this. He has got 24 hours to find someone, who may well recognize him on sight. He thinks its unlikely or not possible. -Well, the Samurai who was the sole character doing the investigation had gotten about 45% done with tracking down the killer before we stopped playing. Now, from the Paladins POV, he should be doing whatever he can to stop said killer from being able to strike again. And, thinking in Player and DM terms, why would I put my players in a situation where they could not prevail, no matter what? Can't speak for Torm. But recognize that gods are far more than people. Their motives and agenda's can easily be complicated and worldspanning. Perhaps Torm wanted her to meet the other PCs? Perhaps Torm wanted her to fight injustice? There are many possibilities. -There are many possibilities, true. But, thinking as player and DM, why would I send the characters to this specific city, only to have them almost immediatley leave? One thing I must insist though. This player just started this game, and you are going to take her powers? This is where you really should cut her some slack, or you'll lose these players. This is very harsh for offenses you've probably never explained [in detail] to the character. -I mentioned before, that the Cleric wanted to attack the High Abbot of Torm, who runs the very temple that she was seeking to pay homage in. He was convinced that he was a heretic after he mentioned that Torm's law was not the only law followers should adhere to. He was mentioning this in regards to the Cleric and Paladin not wanting to answer the summons from the Captain of the Guard, to discuss the crime that had happened. And then, she also wanted to attack the Captain of the Guard, again without any provocation. She claimed that he was corrupt (Though I mentioned he was a follower of the god of law and justice, Tyr), though she had just met the man. She was also trying to undermine his authority, another no-no. And, with fleeing, it's strike three. I don't want to take away her clerical abilities, but I am see no other ways to show the gravity of the situation, and the displeasure she has caused Torm.
Cold Napalm 09-22-06, 11:46 PM	And see the main reason I'd kill them all is because they tried to flee into the high seas on a BOAT...a tiny freakin boat!!! They deserve to die for that one fact alone.
Lord Karsus 09-23-06, 12:03 AM	And see the main reason I'd kill them all is because they tried to flee into the high seas on a BOAT...a tiny freakin boat!!! They deserve to die for that one fact alone. -Ship...Boat...I've been using the words synonymously. Their Folding Boat is large enough to hold about ten people comfortably. So, it's not too small, but no, it's not that big either. In something that small, they're not going to be sailing very far.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-23-06, 01:05 AM	-A trial would have either exonerated them, or landed them a little bit of jail time- it would have really depended on any evidence they gathered, and/or their role-playing performance during the proceedings. And, from their POV, I understand. But, again, this is no behavior for a Cleric and Paladin devoted to peace, justice and law. For anyone else, it's understandable. But, not these two. How just a little bit of jail time? Attempted murder is a serious crime in any country, and if they are actually found guilty of that, they should roll up new characters, because five years of forced labor is going to mess them up. And I would view that as the minimum sentence in an LG country. Now, they might have violated another law--actions endangering an innocent, or something. I guess that's what you have in mind? Well, the Samurai who was the sole character doing the investigation had gotten about 45% done with tracking down the killer before we stopped playing. . There's no way they have this number. 45% probably means they have some solid leads that either nab the assassin, or the assassin turns out to be a bit slicker than anticipated. It's still not a guarenteed success. Mechanically though, the government should be able finish it from there. Now, from the Paladins POV, he should be doing whatever he can to stop said killer from being able to strike again. And, thinking in Player and DM terms, why would I put my players in a situation where they could not prevail, no matter what?. That's a great Ideal situation, but I'm positive that is not what is going through his head right now. What do you think he's thinking? The Paladin is probably over-estimating the difficulty of his situation. Certainly, and we can agree on this, he faces a potenially hostile state trying to get him to deal with an assassin--and whoever backs this assassin, as assassins generally work for money. Now, does the Paladin think that he can not take on the assassin? Be honest, does the assassin outlevel the Paladin? Does the Paladin lack skills for the job (No knowledge local, no sense motive, no track feat, etc). In D+D, its a great idea to have some respect for what your dealing with. Here, the Paladin might be making the right call, at least in terms of Power. Paladins aren't supposed to fly Kamikaze style against Balors; they are supposed to advance their causes as they can, and RETREAT if they have to. And if the Paladin thinks he's outmatched, there's you're answer. [-There are many possibilities, true. But, thinking as player and DM, why would I send the characters to this specific city, only to have them almost immediatley leave? Because all they needed to do was meet up here? The real answer, Karsus, is that you run a much more structured game than I do. (I enjoy Morrowind, so I modeled my D+D game on that kind of self-motivated adventure. If the PCs have no enemies, they don't get special attention.) If the PCs ran from a town they didn't like, I'd let them. I had a blast just building the world we play on, I'm a builder type myself. To me, I guess, hooks and structure need to be provided by the PCs; if they don't want to adventure, they don't have to. If there is meaning in why they are in a town, its the reasons of why they went there. I have no grand plan of "Because of Plan K, or the Propechy of the Silver Star, or the mechinations of a local clique of Githyanki". They are in town because they want to be there, or something else forced them there. At the start of a game, I generally have to start with forced location, but all that really means is that I have a place for them to meet. After that, its all up to them. Now, if they are enslaved by devils and find themselves in Dis, they probably want to get out as fast as they can. In your campaign, I think they've got a picture of what this town means, and they've had enough. And why wouldn't they? You can claim that they've been treated with undeserved respect, but they think that this town is nothing but trouble. You get to claim whatever you want afterward, but if they are allowed to do what they want [within limits] at the present. If you try to extend too much control, they either need an Amtrak pass or a PS2 controller. I mentioned before, that the Cleric wanted to attack the High Abbot of Torm. He was convinced that he was a heretic after he mentioned that Torm's law was not the only law followers should adhere to. All right, either the cleric was just mad at the abbot, or he doesn't really understand Torm. He definitely is a little unsecure about what happens here. She also wanted to attack the Captain of the Guard, again without any provocation*. She claimed that he was corrupt (Though I mentioned he was a follower of the god of law and justice, Tyr), though she had just met the man. She was also trying to undermine his authority, another no-no. And, with fleeing, it's strike three. I don't want to take away her clerical abilities, but I am see no other ways to show the gravity of the situation, and the displeasure she has caused Torm. *Challenged. Going after the wrong people with alleging a serious crime (and attempted murder of an upper classman is a serious crime) is provocative. Unless she actually took a swing at him, it's just hurt feelings, and not a violation of code. One, your arguement on Mafia cops works both ways. If the NPCs can't trust the characters on their religious faith and the fact they are a paladin, neither should the PCs trust the NPCs on it. It can work both ways; except that the party probably doesn't have the divinations to get the right answer. Two, these people need to start getting: Sense Motive Checks Knowledge Local checks, and Knowledge Religion Checks If these people are acting this way because they don't have enough information to know better, you need to fill them in. I'm thinking the problem here is that the PCs don't really understand what you expect of them. You are thinking that they are in violation of oaths, codes, dogmas, etc. And they are. But, they are in unknowing violation of them. Surely LG people can become angry with their supervisiors, or suspect treachery of sorts, or become scared. I stand with the point I've made before: The PCs are trying to help, they don't really know what they are doing, they haven't hurt anyone. Yes, they've run off, but that's because they are scared of the consequences, or they distrust the city to the point where they will take any exit.
Cold Napalm 09-23-06, 04:02 AM	I could have sworn that a folding boat turned into a 2 ores seats like 4 boat... If they are on a ship sized vessel, I would say that the paladin DEFINATELY is a fallen one now and th cleric has no powers anymore. If nothing else they abadoned somebody they KNEW was innocent to face the trial alone when their mere presence would have help said innocent person to no ends if it came to a trial. That was selfish which makes that an evil act. I mean everyone and their mother keeps crying that the cleric is "balanced" by their need to obey their god's code...so they need to learn that they are heros of GOOD, not heros of oh I think we can take that and not get hurt.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-23-06, 05:07 AM	You have a point, Cold Napalm. But I'm thinking that this wasn't the party deserting the character, but the character choosing a different outcome. Now, taking the other PC along is the right thing to do, once you've decided to leave. But if the other PC wants to stay, its okay to split. Nothing they've done seems evil. Chaotic, maybe, but not worth an alignment change, and not enough to cause the Paladin to fall. Running away from a state you don't want to deal with isn't evil--otherwise most of the USA would be 'Evil'. This is just a problem in communications.
kelvinaw273 09-23-06, 09:48 AM	Dimension Door[/I], hopped through it, and vanished to elsewhere. -The PCs gave their statements to the city watch, and were eventually taken to the headquarters of the city watch, where each PC met with the captain of the guard. The Captain "interrogated" each PC, and then kept them "under arrest" until the final witness was done talking. -The Captain then spoke with the entire party. He told them that no other witnesses mentioned a " Mysterious Black Clad Man". The other witnesses only saw the PCs running from the scene of the crime. But, the Captain said, since there was a Paladin and a Cleric of Torm in the group, he would envoke an ancient law. The group would have 24 hours to find evidence to prove their innocence, rather than being jailed until trial. -After being released, all but one of the PCs traveled to the dock ward of the city, unfolded their Unfolding Boat and sailed into the ocean, without a destination, a map, food, or skill points in ship sailing. -Obviously, I was somewhat angered, because the party was misbehaving, for the most part. For example, the Cleric of Torm wanted to attack the High Abbot of Torm, because she felt he was a heretic of abiding to the laws of the city, which he said were just as important as the laws of Torm. She also wanted to attack the Captain of the guard, who she said was corrupt, though no evidence was ever presented. -Should I reward the players for being bad, and simply continue with the campaign now on the water, instead of showing them my displeasure by having their characters die on the high seas, like they really should? And, what should I do with the one character who did what she was supposed to do, who is now entirely cut off from all of the other PCs? I can see how the players might have felt a bit railroaded, but DM plot-hooks sometimes have to be a bit railroadish to get things going. Also, they have just given you licence to screw them over with a vengeance. Who has navigation skill, or sailing? No-one. Well, what goes out on the evening tide and the land wind come back on the morning tide and the sea breeze! Likelyhood is: 1) they'll wash up pretty quickly nearby. Even if they don't they'll get chased a day later by a ship from the city which will almost certainly catch them. 2) They are now wanted for the crime - any leeway they had has gone, as fleeing has made them effectively guilty in the eyes of the law. 3) The paladin and cleric are in doggy-do with their churches, who will likely excomunicate them (don't want to be associated with criminals). 4) The player who stayed will have to bail them out - give that player a lucky break that could provide some evidence to bail the rest of them. And some extra XP for doing the right thing! Under the circumstances staying and dealing with the situation would have gone much better for them. Now, they will be lucky to escape with lives intact. Of course they can, and once they are proven innocent you have a licence for more adventure hooks, as the churches of your paladin and cleric will demand Atonement for their shocking lack of faith and moral fibre.
Cold Napalm 09-23-06, 05:30 PM	You have a point, Cold Napalm. But I'm thinking that this wasn't the party deserting the character, but the character choosing a different outcome. Now, taking the other PC along is the right thing to do, once you've decided to leave. But if the other PC wants to stay, its okay to split. If they wanted to flee because they feared for their lives, then the paladin abadoning the lone innocent person is even worse. If diplomacy failed to convince the samurai, they should have bonked him over the head and brought him along. They are "saving" his/her life after all. The paladin basically said it's your choice to die and left. If they fleed and they had no fear on imment death, then it is a very VERY unlawful act, and he's still fallen. The paladin screwed the pooch on this one.
Lord Karsus 09-23-06, 07:19 PM	I could have sworn that a folding boat turned into a 2 ores seats like 4 boat... -I don't know. I've never actually seen the write-up of the item. In a campaign I was in a few years ago, our characters were given a folding boat that was a little bigger than just a little rowboat. When I gave the PCs the item, I also made it bigger than just a little rowboat.
Cold Napalm 09-23-06, 07:26 PM	-I don't know. I've never actually seen the write-up of the item. In a campaign I was in a few years ago, our characters were given a folding boat that was a little bigger than just a little rowboat. When I gave the PCs the item, I also made it bigger than just a little rowboat. Well at least you know why I have been adamant about they are all dead, no rolls needed at least :) . Fleeing to high seas in a row boat = too dumb to live hehe.
Max Octavious Xavier 09-23-06, 09:28 PM	SRD: Boat, Folding: A folding boat looks like a small wooden box—about 12 inches long, 6 inches wide, and 6 inches deep. It can be used to store items like any other box. If a command word is given, however, the box unfolds itself to form a boat 10 feet long, 4 feet wide, and 2 feet in depth. A second command word causes it to unfold to a ship 24 feet long, 8 feet wide, and 6 feet deep. Any objects formerly stored in the box now rest inside the boat or ship. In its smaller form, the boat has one pair of oars, an anchor, a mast, and a lateen sail. In its larger form, the boat has a deck, single rowing seats, five sets of oars, a steering oar, an anchor, a deck cabin, and a mast with a square sail. The boat can hold four people comfortably, while the ship carries fifteen with ease. A third word of command causes the boat or ship to fold itself into a box once again.Just so we all know what we are talking about. About the OP post, I wouldn't just kill the people who fled in a boat with no skill in sailing/navigation/etc.. I'm sure the sea can do that for you :). Just have them start making various rolls to control the ship, to eat, to navigate and for random events (other ships, sea monsters, weather, etc...). Let their action (of sailing off) have the appropriate consequences.
Reversefigure4 09-23-06, 10:00 PM	-A trial would have either exonerated them, or landed them a little bit of jail time- it would have really depended on any evidence they gathered, and/or their role-playing performance during the proceedings. Again, do the PCs know this? Is it routine for the city to try people on minimal evidence, and are the PCs aware this sort of thing happens all the time and the people are freed? If not, the PCs are probably running on the court system that the players know - that you don't get taken to trial unless there's considered to be enough evidence to argue for conviction. And for attempted murder of a noble, they might be looking at an execution themselves (again, do the PCs know what the likely punishment is?) In a city where I was arrested and going to be tried based solely on the word of a witness that I was near the scene of a crime - no motive or other evidence needed - and I didn't know this sort of thing happened all the time, I'd run too. Paladin or not, you only have to follow justice if it's a just law. A system that tries you on minimal evidence may not fit the Pally's idea of justice.