A Second Chance... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Second Chance... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arcanis, the Omnipotent
08-26-05, 01:47 PM Greetings, everyone.

First off I'd like to say that a group of me and my friends decided to start a D&D group, about 2 years ago, but due to some circumstances involving our available time, and a few members quiting, the group eventually broke apart. It was the first time for all of us, including me (the DM) and I must admit a couple of very important factors. Like experience progression - the PCs were progressing way too slowly, it was oly after 8/9 sessions that they hit lvl 2 - and noone was exactly iddle - and storyline weaving and presenting - I had a story ready, but didn't know what or how to present the setting to the PCs (should I just give a description of the locale they are in? How much information about people do I give if they ask? How do I treat interaction with peasants and other NPCs of limited knowledge?). No matter how many times I read the DMG, and I can tell you I didn't lose just one night reading it from cover to cover, there are some concepts that experience gives and I didn't grasp.

It was only a few weeks ago that I had the pleasure of assisting to a demonstration in the chat rooms of a campaign lead by experienced people, and it was a real eye-opener... It was also at that time that I realized that the fault people started to lose interest was mine. My fights were boring. I gave too much or too little away at some time. I trivialized gameplay to the point that it wasn't fun. It was like 10 tons of rock falling on my shoulders for having "destroyed" something that could have been very fun.

Now, some of the people from the previous group, plus some other new blood, wish to start a new group, and wish me to be their DM again. I, however, feel like I must not let them down a second time, and if I will do this, I will do this right, not a doubt in my mind. So I'd like to ask if any of you more experienced payers know of a place where I can go and find things that help me understand real game flow better - like complete descriptions (and I mean really complete, with things like when to roll and who rolls for what) of small quest hubs or a single game session.

Please... I don't want to fail. I feel like I have been given a second chance and want to make it as enjoyable for me and for everyone as that piece of gameplay I saw live in the chat room.
Illion the Red
08-26-05, 02:02 PM This might be hard to take, but there is no "easy" way to become a great DM. It's a lengthy process to get there and some of us never will. I've been playing for 25+ years and I'm still grappling with various aspects of running the game.

That said, NOTHING has helped me more than this board. Read through the various threads, especially the "How do I XXXX" threads. There are some excellent DMs and Players who frequent (or infrequent) these boards and their advice is top-notch.

A few tips...to learn better narrative description, picture what it is you are describing in your head and then try to describe it to someone else. Once you are done, have them describe it back to you. What did they miss? Was there something you wanted to be important? Ask them what "mood" the description evokes. If it's not what you had in mind, work on adding elements that would get you there.

Make a list of descriptive adjectives and keep it handy for descriptions. Add to your list using a thesaurus and dictonary so that you can describe something with precision. Is the bard happy, or is the bard ebullient?

Storyline is something to keep in mind at all times. Throw small elements of it at your players often. Learn to use plothooks. Learn how to make the innocuous NPC that has no real information for the PCs seem to be the most important one in the world when they bump into him. (not every one, mind you, but throw a few in as this will keep the PCs from being able to spot the "must talk to" NPCs every time.
Arcanis, the Omnipotent
08-26-05, 02:09 PM Thanks for the tips! I've been reading some of the posts around here and find them extremely informative... Thanks.
rbrt_Spade
08-26-05, 02:10 PM also mabye the dmg2 guys? anyways read the threads on the boards-you will learn so much! also becoming a good dm comes with dming-learning things that your good at and what you suck at! mabye get a free adventure(in the downloads) of wotc website and running it might help or a premade world like fr or greyhawk
UltimateReality
08-26-05, 04:48 PM Thanks for the tips! I've been reading some of the posts around here and find them extremely informative... Thanks.
There really is only one way to become a masterful DM that usually works IMO, and it consists of three parts:

1) Read. Read D&D books, read the forums, read novels, read non-fiction (inspiration is your friend). Read everything.
2) Play RPGs. Play D&D to get a feel for the different ways the game can be played, to learn the rules. Play other RPGs to find out what D&D doesn't have that you could twist, alter, import, or ignore altogether.
3) DM. There really is no substitute for experience. Ask your group to be patient with you cuz you're new, and ask for constructive feedback at the end of each session. (If they're reluctant, you can give out very tiny xp awards for those who provide you with helpful feedback. Or, if you're like us, you just stand in front of the door and don't let them leave until they tell you. :P)
jnrhayz
08-26-05, 05:29 PM I don't know if there is one thing that will help you, but I will relay my own personal experience.

I started off as a horrible DM. I finished my first game after one session by having Darth Vader arrive and invade the planet (that wasn't planned, I did that because the game was so bad).

Anyway, later in life, I was playing in a game where we decided to each take a turn DMing. This was when I really got into DMing. All of the initial story wasn't put on me and I really got into it. I basically took over the game and DMed it to it's conclusion. After this, I DMed most of our games until the invention of 3rd edition.

I played in 3rd edition and then moved. It took a while, but I found a new group shortly and I DMed that game. That group broke up, and after an exhaustive search I was in a new group with one of the players I DMed.

The player wanted to DM (used to play 2nd). I had a feeling things would turn out poorly, but I figured we were all adults and it would be okay. Well, that turned out to be a horrible fiasco.

Anyway, to finally get to my point, that person left the group and I DM on every other game night with the group. (Two different alternating games) I started off wanting to try something different with this group than what I normally do. This is when I realized that the DM has to have as much fun as the player. I had developed a style and I had gotten away from that and the game just wasn't bringing me enjoyment. I am working on a way to re-track the campaign into something I enjoy running.

I develop an outline prior to each game involving what I want the players to encounter that night. It isn't anything solid like a script, just things they will encounter. If your make anything too firm, the players lose the ability to choose what is happening to them and as a player I hate that.

The second thing I do is try to have handouts for the group. Maps, stories, etc. I have found that this helps to bring their focus better than just storyline.

The third thing, a little rail-roading never hurt anyone. In a previous game, I had a cleric set as the BBEG. The group would always show up just as he was completing his evil deeds. (From like Level 1-7) Then he would teleport out before I would allow them to attack. This really annoyed them. They really loved it when they finally got to fight him. Of course, I gave an excuse for it, he had an item similar to The cape of the mountebank that allowed him to teleport to a certain location (heart of his temple - guess where the battle with the group was ;) ) once/day. They decided it was an evil item because it had been created by his evil god and so the next mission involved destroying the cloak.

The fourth thing comes from the third thing. Listen to your players. They have great ideas.

Anyway, Good luck.
Rez123
08-26-05, 05:33 PM In referance to your questions in the first paragraph -

In general, when a PC asks about a person, you shouldn't tell them anything not-evident to their eyes. Unless they're actually speaking to the person. In which case, answer whatever they ask to the best of *that persons* ability.
Kaligrad
08-26-05, 09:39 PM I can't honestly say I was any good when I started out either. Something that helped, though, was that I made sure my first adventure was one that was prebuilt. That way, most, if not all of the legwork and effort is done for you, granting you enough time to figure out how to DM, before you have to worry about other things, like building dungeons, statting NPCs, or crafting plotlines.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arcanis, the Omnipotent 08-26-05, 01:47 PM	Greetings, everyone. First off I'd like to say that a group of me and my friends decided to start a D&D group, about 2 years ago, but due to some circumstances involving our available time, and a few members quiting, the group eventually broke apart. It was the first time for all of us, including me (the DM) and I must admit a couple of very important factors. Like experience progression - the PCs were progressing way too slowly, it was oly after 8/9 sessions that they hit lvl 2 - and noone was exactly iddle - and storyline weaving and presenting - I had a story ready, but didn't know what or how to present the setting to the PCs (should I just give a description of the locale they are in? How much information about people do I give if they ask? How do I treat interaction with peasants and other NPCs of limited knowledge?). No matter how many times I read the DMG, and I can tell you I didn't lose just one night reading it from cover to cover, there are some concepts that experience gives and I didn't grasp. It was only a few weeks ago that I had the pleasure of assisting to a demonstration in the chat rooms of a campaign lead by experienced people, and it was a real eye-opener... It was also at that time that I realized that the fault people started to lose interest was mine. My fights were boring. I gave too much or too little away at some time. I trivialized gameplay to the point that it wasn't fun. It was like 10 tons of rock falling on my shoulders for having "destroyed" something that could have been very fun. Now, some of the people from the previous group, plus some other new blood, wish to start a new group, and wish me to be their DM again. I, however, feel like I must not let them down a second time, and if I will do this, I will do this right, not a doubt in my mind. So I'd like to ask if any of you more experienced payers know of a place where I can go and find things that help me understand real game flow better - like complete descriptions (and I mean really complete, with things like when to roll and who rolls for what) of small quest hubs or a single game session. Please... I don't want to fail. I feel like I have been given a second chance and want to make it as enjoyable for me and for everyone as that piece of gameplay I saw live in the chat room.
Illion the Red 08-26-05, 02:02 PM	This might be hard to take, but there is no "easy" way to become a great DM. It's a lengthy process to get there and some of us never will. I've been playing for 25+ years and I'm still grappling with various aspects of running the game. That said, NOTHING has helped me more than this board. Read through the various threads, especially the "How do I XXXX" threads. There are some excellent DMs and Players who frequent (or infrequent) these boards and their advice is top-notch. A few tips...to learn better narrative description, picture what it is you are describing in your head and then try to describe it to someone else. Once you are done, have them describe it back to you. What did they miss? Was there something you wanted to be important? Ask them what "mood" the description evokes. If it's not what you had in mind, work on adding elements that would get you there. Make a list of descriptive adjectives and keep it handy for descriptions. Add to your list using a thesaurus and dictonary so that you can describe something with precision. Is the bard happy, or is the bard ebullient? Storyline is something to keep in mind at all times. Throw small elements of it at your players often. Learn to use plothooks. Learn how to make the innocuous NPC that has no real information for the PCs seem to be the most important one in the world when they bump into him. (not every one, mind you, but throw a few in as this will keep the PCs from being able to spot the "must talk to" NPCs every time.
Arcanis, the Omnipotent 08-26-05, 02:09 PM	Thanks for the tips! I've been reading some of the posts around here and find them extremely informative... Thanks.
rbrt_Spade 08-26-05, 02:10 PM	also mabye the dmg2 guys? anyways read the threads on the boards-you will learn so much! also becoming a good dm comes with dming-learning things that your good at and what you suck at! mabye get a free adventure(in the downloads) of wotc website and running it might help or a premade world like fr or greyhawk
UltimateReality 08-26-05, 04:48 PM	Thanks for the tips! I've been reading some of the posts around here and find them extremely informative... Thanks. There really is only one way to become a masterful DM that usually works IMO, and it consists of three parts: 1) Read. Read D&D books, read the forums, read novels, read non-fiction (inspiration is your friend). Read everything. 2) Play RPGs. Play D&D to get a feel for the different ways the game can be played, to learn the rules. Play other RPGs to find out what D&D doesn't have that you could twist, alter, import, or ignore altogether. 3) DM. There really is no substitute for experience. Ask your group to be patient with you cuz you're new, and ask for constructive feedback at the end of each session. (If they're reluctant, you can give out very tiny xp awards for those who provide you with helpful feedback. Or, if you're like us, you just stand in front of the door and don't let them leave until they tell you. :P)
jnrhayz 08-26-05, 05:29 PM	I don't know if there is one thing that will help you, but I will relay my own personal experience. I started off as a horrible DM. I finished my first game after one session by having Darth Vader arrive and invade the planet (that wasn't planned, I did that because the game was so bad). Anyway, later in life, I was playing in a game where we decided to each take a turn DMing. This was when I really got into DMing. All of the initial story wasn't put on me and I really got into it. I basically took over the game and DMed it to it's conclusion. After this, I DMed most of our games until the invention of 3rd edition. I played in 3rd edition and then moved. It took a while, but I found a new group shortly and I DMed that game. That group broke up, and after an exhaustive search I was in a new group with one of the players I DMed. The player wanted to DM (used to play 2nd). I had a feeling things would turn out poorly, but I figured we were all adults and it would be okay. Well, that turned out to be a horrible fiasco. Anyway, to finally get to my point, that person left the group and I DM on every other game night with the group. (Two different alternating games) I started off wanting to try something different with this group than what I normally do. This is when I realized that the DM has to have as much fun as the player. I had developed a style and I had gotten away from that and the game just wasn't bringing me enjoyment. I am working on a way to re-track the campaign into something I enjoy running. I develop an outline prior to each game involving what I want the players to encounter that night. It isn't anything solid like a script, just things they will encounter. If your make anything too firm, the players lose the ability to choose what is happening to them and as a player I hate that. The second thing I do is try to have handouts for the group. Maps, stories, etc. I have found that this helps to bring their focus better than just storyline. The third thing, a little rail-roading never hurt anyone. In a previous game, I had a cleric set as the BBEG. The group would always show up just as he was completing his evil deeds. (From like Level 1-7) Then he would teleport out before I would allow them to attack. This really annoyed them. They really loved it when they finally got to fight him. Of course, I gave an excuse for it, he had an item similar to The cape of the mountebank that allowed him to teleport to a certain location (heart of his temple - guess where the battle with the group was ;) ) once/day. They decided it was an evil item because it had been created by his evil god and so the next mission involved destroying the cloak. The fourth thing comes from the third thing. Listen to your players. They have great ideas. Anyway, Good luck.
Rez123 08-26-05, 05:33 PM	In referance to your questions in the first paragraph - In general, when a PC asks about a person, you shouldn't tell them anything not-evident to their eyes. Unless they're actually speaking to the person. In which case, answer whatever they ask to the best of that persons ability.
Kaligrad 08-26-05, 09:39 PM	I can't honestly say I was any good when I started out either. Something that helped, though, was that I made sure my first adventure was one that was prebuilt. That way, most, if not all of the legwork and effort is done for you, granting you enough time to figure out how to DM, before you have to worry about other things, like building dungeons, statting NPCs, or crafting plotlines.